Forum Transcripts

Backtracking the Character: Starting with the Plot 11/16/04

Event start time:

Tue Nov 16 12:00:55 2004

Event end time:

Tue Nov 16 13:25:16 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Tuesday Forum. :-)

mary rosenblum

I hope you all had a great weekend.

mary rosenblum

I'll be sending out an update to the website serve list tomorrow...

mary rosenblum

but as a preview, I did post a new short mystery market in New Market Updates.

mary rosenblum

Crimson Dagger is a new market...and if you haven't sold your short mystery elsewhere, it might be a good place to gain a clip.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about backtracking from the plot to the character. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

There are two ways to begin a story...with the character or with the plot.

mary rosenblum

Some writers mostly do one or the other...

mary rosenblum

but as you gain experience as a fiction writer, you'll find that you begin to use both methods...

mary rosenblum

and if you do, it's a good idea to realize that character/plot relationships change depending on where you start.

mary rosenblum

Do be aware that very few writers, even pros, can CHANGE a character once that character has taken on a three dimensional form in the writer's mind.

mary rosenblum

It is usually better to simply start over if a character won't work in your story.

mary rosenblum

OR change the plot!

mary rosenblum

So if you begin with a solid character and you want to use this person, then you need to construct a plot that won't force your character...

mary rosenblum

to behave in a way that is not part of that character's personality.

mary rosenblum

If you DO make that character do what the plot demands, even if he/she would not in real life...then you have a plot puppet and we readers all know it.

mary rosenblum

We see the strings, the wooden joints, and we don't for a second think this is a real person.

mary rosenblum

Ho hum.

mary rosenblum

BUT...what if you think up a really cool plot? What then?

mary rosenblum

Well, alas, what happens with most novice writers is that they happily start writing.

mary rosenblum

And all of a sudden they hit a point in the plot where the character says...'

mary rosenblum

NO, I won't do that!

mary rosenblum

And again...you have a choice. Turn the character into a puppet or change the plot..

seabeewife

A little lost . .. describe a flat character please

mary rosenblum

A three dimensional character, seabeewife, is one that seems real to you..

mary rosenblum

someone you believe you could meet in the grocery story.

mary rosenblum

store!

mary rosenblum

The person behaves like your neighbor, your aunt, your school teacher.

mary rosenblum

He or she does not act in ways that real people don't act.

seabeewife

What if they seem real to you, but not your reader?

mary rosenblum

They always seem real to YOU, seabee...but it's YOUR job as writer to make them real to the reader, too.

mary rosenblum

That is where craft comes in.

mary rosenblum

We know our characters as people, but how we present them to the reader makes them seem like real people to the reader rather than cartoon characters.

mary rosenblum

And one of the big mistakes that novice writers make is to simply make the character do what the plot demands without thinking about it!

mary rosenblum

Let's look at an example.

mary rosenblum

Say we want to write this great, heartwarming story about a bunch of kids who play softball together after school...

mary rosenblum

and our Main Character is Santos, a recent immigrant who feels shy and out of place and doesn't really fit in.

mary rosenblum

And you want to make it end with him triumphing by besting the local bully who often breaks up the game...

mary rosenblum

and becoming a hero to his playmates. So...you just have him do it.

mary rosenblum

The bully shows up to break up the game and Santos punches him. The bully runs away and everybody is happy.

mary rosenblum

But we don't believe it.

mary rosenblum

Why did he change?

mary rosenblum

He was afraid of his shadow yesterday...how could he stand up to the guy today and why dind't the bully pound him flat?

mary rosenblum

So the story doesn't REALLY move us because we know it couldn't happen that way.

mary rosenblum

But YOU know that in his home town, Santos was very brave and a leader and is only...

mary rosenblum

acting shy because of the language and cultural differences...

mary rosenblum

and when the bully pushes a little kid around who reminds him of the little brother who maybe died...

mary rosenblum

Santos loses his fear of making mistakes and steps in to stop him...

mary rosenblum

and now we understand how it could happen and yes, it does seem as if it could happen in real life, so it moves us.

seabeewife

how do we do that? i think i am and maybe i am not

mary rosenblum

The only way to know if you are doing it, seebea, is to give your work to good readers and ask them questions about your character.

mary rosenblum

Did it seem real that Santos could stand up to the bully? Did you believe it?

mary rosenblum

Did you understand why he could do that?

mary rosenblum

If your reader tells you that Santos stood up to the bully because he felt bad for the little kid and lost his temper, okay, you're doing it.

mary rosenblum

If the reader says, well, no, she didn't really know why he stood up to the bully but it was nice that he did...you didn't make Santos's motivations clear.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about backtracking from the plot to the character. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

margieh

If you think you design a plot that you think would draw the main character out (his/her strengths and weaknesses) would the character still be a plot puppet?

mary rosenblum

Not at all, margieh. If you begin with a character and you know that character, then by all means design the plot so that it suits the character!

mary rosenblum

That is turning the plot into a puppet for the character...and that is fine.

mary rosenblum

Plot is simply a combination of events.

mary rosenblum

Any event can happen.

mary rosenblum

But people DO behave in certain ways.

mary rosenblum

If they don't behave like real people, we don't believe in them. You can make your reader...

mary rosenblum

believe that plot events happen very easily. Need to trap your MC in a car? A tree falls on that person's car in a storm.

mary rosenblum

I'll believe that.

ducky

This sounds all too familiar to me. I've got this character who is a retired doctor, has done high-level research, is very logical, practical, and works from empirical evidence. He encounters the supernatural. I'm having to work hard to present his inner conflict and make it credible.

mary rosenblum

And here we have a perfect example of building the plot to suit the character.

mary rosenblum

But what if you start with the plot?

mary rosenblum

We have a supernatural encounter.

mary rosenblum

And we need our MC to deal with the situation.

mary rosenblum

So how do we create a character who can do that? And actually...

mary rosenblum

if your logical and practical doctor isn't fully formed...

mary rosenblum

you might be able to give him a back story that will enable him to believe in that supernatural event and do what you want.

mary rosenblum

Let's say we have a great idea where a disembodied spirit has haunted an old house waiting to revenge his murder...

mary rosenblum

only the real murderer has of course died long ago...

mary rosenblum

so our ghost will take vengence on the man's granddaughter...

mary rosenblum

when she happens to rent the house for some plausible reason.

ducky

Now, the back story is that he grew up with X-files evidence all around him. He rejected it totally - so now being confronted with it so directly, he is angry and resistant.

mary rosenblum

Well, you can work back from the plot to find a reason for him to ultimately believe in it, ducky. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'm assuming you WANT him to eventually deal with it, right?

mary rosenblum

So here we have a man who on the surface totally rejects evidence of the supernatural.

mary rosenblum

BUT your plot requires him to accept it. What to do?

mary rosenblum

Well, here's the key...

mary rosenblum

ON THE SURFACE he rejects that evident.

ducky

Glad you said that because that is the way I'm headed. He can't continue to ignore his family heritage and eventually, he won't.

mary rosenblum

And you have actually set up a character who CAN believe, ducky...

mary rosenblum

what you can do is ask youself...WHY is he so resistant when he grew up with it?

mary rosenblum

Well, one reason that occurs to me is that something very traumatic and real happened to him as a child and his way...

mary rosenblum

of burying that event and defending himself against it ever happening again was to say 'none of this is real'...

mary rosenblum

and he did that because it WAS real and it really scarred him. So his resistance is self protection.

mary rosenblum

If he says 'there's no such thing as ghosts' loudly and realistically enough...

mary rosenblum

then there AREN'T...and he's safe. So how do you let him reach back to that kid who knew ghosts WERE real?

mary rosenblum

Clearly he is not going to do it if he has the choice to keep on disbelieving!

mary rosenblum

So YOUR job is to find a lever that realistically forces him to believe again.

mary rosenblum

Perhaps someone he loves is in danger and he can't protect or save that person unless he can accept that ghosts are real.

ducky

In this case the answer is going to be a compelling case of undying love. :-)

mary rosenblum

There you go.

mary rosenblum

Your plot demanded that he finally accept that supernatural, and your undying love is the lever to FORCE him to do it even if he doesn't want to.

ducky

Thanks Mary!!! Quaaaaacckkkk!

mary rosenblum

You're welcome!

margieh

In Ducky's story you'd have to show the outer resistance and the inner wrestling at the same time so you don't surprise the reader with something "out of the blue"?

mary rosenblum

Yep, margieh, exactly. And you could do it as a couple of brief 'plants' that would hint at the earlier event...

mary rosenblum

and let readers guess that he wasn't as certain about no ghosts as he lets on.

mary rosenblum

But you want to be subtle so that the climax of his acceptance of the ghosts is an enjoyable surprise to the reader...

mary rosenblum

who then realizes, oh yeah, we sort of got that hint earlier...

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about backtracking from the plot to the character. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Even if you're not writing mystery, you want to plant subtle clues that don't give away your climax but allow the reader to see how you reached your climax and resolution.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about backtracking from the plot to the character. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

margieh

So I start with plot: an event or chain of events. Will it help me, the writer, to ask who would be most affected by this chain of events and why? Or who would have the most interesting story to tell?

mary rosenblum

It would indeed, margieh.

mary rosenblum

If I have a plot idea first, I often vacillate between two characters for 'Main' position before I decide who really has the most at stake.

mary rosenblum

And that is what you look at: Who has the most to gain or lose here?

mary rosenblum

Who has the biggest stake in the outcome?

mary rosenblum

And then you decide what the requirements for character.

mary rosenblum

What must they be able to do?

mary rosenblum

In our doctor's case, he needs to be able to accept the supernatural event.

mary rosenblum

And if we had begun with the plot there...we could have come up with exactly the situation Ducky came up with by starting with the character.

mary rosenblum

We don't want a character to simply say' oh it's ghosts' and solve the problem too easily

mary rosenblum

!

mary rosenblum

We want a struggle. That's what makes fiction engaging.

mary rosenblum

So we ask ourselves..what will make it hard for this character to solve the problem.

mary rosenblum

Hmmm....what if he refuses to believe in ghosts at all?

mary rosenblum

Well, why should he? If I see disembodied forms floating around, I may not have believed in ghosts ten minutes ago, but I believe NOW!

mary rosenblum

So how come he won't?

mary rosenblum

Well, he doesn't want to.

mary rosenblum

Why doesn't he want to?

mary rosenblum

Because if he believes in them, then he has to admit that a childhood event that he has pretended didn't happen..really DID happen...

mary rosenblum

and it is something he really doesn't want to face.

mary rosenblum

Aha....now he has a reason not to believe and it will be a struggle to MAKE him believe...

mary rosenblum

so we have intensified the conflict. We have added an internal conflict to the external conflict of the ghosts.

mary rosenblum

Essentially, you are stepping backward from your climax, and finding ways to make it difficult for your character to resolve that climax, but realistically possible...

mary rosenblum

with considerable effort!

rissa

I had a character who was acting very strange but I used a back story of how she was raised to make it seem like she could have mental problems, does that work?

mary rosenblum

Sure. Back story can suggest a lot of reasons for character behavior.

mary rosenblum

Just beware of spending too much time on back story. Most of the time a few hints are enough.

rissa

In my story, the main character has to deal with the character who has some mental problems, and she tries to be very understanding, that's her personality. After the character does some bad things to her, she still tries to be understanding in the end. Is that too unbelievable?

mary rosenblum

Not at all. If she is the kind of person who can see beyond the moment, she may be quite capable of understanding that...

mary rosenblum

the mentally ill woman is not intentionally harming her, that it is an effect of her illness.

mary rosenblum

There are plenty of real people with that level of understanding, you simply need to make her seem believably so.

mary rosenblum

Now if she can't see beyond her own needs with everybody else in the story, then we won't believe that understanding when she deals with the ill woman.

mary rosenblum

But if she seems like that sort of person all the time, we'll believe in her.

mary rosenblum

That's what you do...what must my character be in order to be believable in this plot?

mary rosenblum

In rissa's case, the woman has to be the sort of person who can see past actions to a person's real motivations and problems.

mary rosenblum

So she is not going to be rude and thoughtless to the harried store clerk.

mary rosenblum

She is going to put up with the woman's poor service, understanding that she is overworked, probably had a bad evening, and isnt't to blame for her behavior.

margieh

Mary, does the reader need a "why" in rissa's case? Why is the woman so capable of that kind of understanding?

mary rosenblum

Not really...not if her behavior is consistent. We'll assume that she had a good childhood, that she was raised by caring parents...

mary rosenblum

and is simply an empathetic and caring woman.

mary rosenblum

It is when you create a character who is acting in some extreme or unusual way that you really need to give us enough back story to make it seem plausible.

margieh

If she's capable of this level of understanding do we need a conflict that's deeper than someone who's hard to get along with?

mary rosenblum

Well, it may be hard to create a conflict for our caring woman. You'll have to think what might 'back her into a corner' so to speak...give her a problem that will be very hard for her to solve.

mary rosenblum

What might cause that sort of person personal conflict?

mary rosenblum

A hard choice...between doing what she knows is right and doing what someone needs, perhaps?

rissa

In the story, the mental ill woman attempts to kill the main character's sister

mary rosenblum

And here you can give her a realistic conflict. If she stops helping the woman, maybe she will end up forgotten on the back ward of the local...

mary rosenblum

mental hospital. But if she DOES continue to help, she is potentially putting her sister at risk.

mary rosenblum

You can cause her quite a bit of mental pain and suffering that way...and what is her decision?

mary rosenblum

And why? And how does Sis react?

mary rosenblum

YOu might have to backtrack here and figure out what really drives her behavior..

mary rosenblum

what is it that helping this woman really means to her?

mary rosenblum

It may be that she didn't have a caring home as a child...

mary rosenblum

it may be that she was neglected and her caring behavior is over compensation for that bereft childhood...

mary rosenblum

and this woman has become a symbol to her and even though she knows she is risking her sister...

mary rosenblum

she HAS to help her, she cannot let her go into that institution...

mary rosenblum

We have worked back to a character who ...even though she seems to be a rational and caring person...is not really rational about this situation...

mary rosenblum

and thus will do something that will precipiate the climax, even though she might not have done that if she was just a nice person and nothing more.

mary rosenblum

The plot demands here that this woman weigh her sister's life against care for this woman...

mary rosenblum

and a rational person might not be willing to risk her sister's life...I rather hope not anyhow!

mary rosenblum

But by creating a bit more back story for this character, we see that this mentally ill woman..

mary rosenblum

is important in a way that our caring woman really doesn't comprehend and thus she is being propelled by her own need to fix what was wrong in her childhood...

mary rosenblum

and can therefore put her sister at risk.

mary rosenblum

The reader will believe this, were they might doubt that a rational real person would let someone stay with her after that attempt on her sister's life!

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about backtracking from the plot to the character. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

margieh

What if the mother of the MC and sister was patient to the point of not protecting the sister when she needed to but the MC doesn't know that and risks making the same mistake. Would the sister have to be the MC or can the writer communicate to the reader something the MC doesn't know?

mary rosenblum

(sorry..puppy potty break)

mary rosenblum

Well, you don't want to communicate that information as WRITER...breaking in with your own voice shatters the 'reality' of the story for us.

mary rosenblum

BUT...why can't the older sister tell her?

mary rosenblum

If she confronts the sister with what really went on as a child...sis can deny it utterly.

mary rosenblum

So we now know what happened and why, but the sister is refusing to believe it.

mary rosenblum

There are many ways to get information to the reader wihtout your POV getting it.

mary rosenblum

Another character can make a cryptic comment and the MC can pay little attention...

mary rosenblum

but we'll know what is going on.

mary rosenblum

The main thing to think about...

mary rosenblum

is what is required to make this MC's behavior plausible.

mary rosenblum

And most of the time, you can create a back story for that character than can make even seemingly unlikely behavior make sense.

mary rosenblum

What I see in a lot of novice stories is a character who behaves in a way that most normal people would not..

mary rosenblum

and we have no reason for it. Now the author knows why that person could do that...

mary rosenblum

like our immigant kid who punches the bully.

mary rosenblum

But where craft comes in is how you make that also something the reader knows...

mary rosenblum

without breaking in to explain the situation as author.

mary rosenblum

And that is where you can spend some time thinking about things.

mary rosenblum

Just how CAN we let the reader know about Santos' kid brother and his death?

mary rosenblum

We don't want to simply tell the reader.

mary rosenblum

So who else knows? Who can share that critical information with us?

mary rosenblum

Let's see. His mother knows, right? And Santos knows.

mary rosenblum

Maybe nobody else.

mary rosenblum

So one of them has to tell us.

mary rosenblum

Maybe we have a scene where Mom comes in at bedtime to sit on Santos' bed and talk to him about his friends...

mary rosenblum

she has seen how much he stands apart from kids...

mary rosenblum

and maybe she brings up his brother. Maybe Santos has been quiet and withdrawn ever since he died...

mary rosenblum

and mother tells him that it wasn't his fault, that even though they were both in the yard, it was not...

mary rosenblum

Santos fault that the child ran into the road...

mary rosenblum

And Santos doesn't have to say anything, or he could, or he could vividly remember that moment and we'll see that he could have gone to fetch his brother as the kid ran away from him...

mary rosenblum

but he was so sick of chasing him that he didn't...

mary rosenblum

But at the end of the scene, we will understand that the boy is a festering wound in Santos' mind...

mary rosenblum

and then, later, when the bully is pushing around that kid, all we need is for Santos to think how much he looks like the dead brother...

mary rosenblum

and when he socks the bully we'll figure out why, don't worry.

mary rosenblum

We have back tracked from that punch in the nose to find a reason that Santos HAS to punch the bully in the nose when he has been a total doormat.

mary rosenblum

With ducky's story, we back tracked from that need to suddenly accept ghosts...

mary rosenblum

to find a reason why the doctor refused to do it until that moment.

mary rosenblum

And in rissa's story...why the woman would still care for a woman who had already tried to kill her sister.

mary rosenblum

Notice that in all three cases, the reasons like in the character's past? Does this seem like a pattern?

mary rosenblum

-)

mary rosenblum

it is.

mary rosenblum

But what happens all too often is that the writer simply says, 'because I made him do that.'

mary rosenblum

And that leaves the character as a cartoon figure, flat as a page of paper!

rissa

How do you know when you need a "why" in that case?

mary rosenblum

One sure way to know if you have given the character adequate motivation is to let someone read the story...

mary rosenblum

and then ask them. Why did my character do that?

mary rosenblum

If they come close to your reason for that action, then you're fine.

mary rosenblum

If they're way off base, maybe you'd better add some more back story clues!

mary rosenblum

If they say, 'I don't know, I never did figure that out,' you definitely need to add more!

mary rosenblum

And do ask specifically. Unless you are dealing with an experienced pro critquer, character motivation is not something that gets mentioned often.

mary rosenblum

I give readers a list of questions I want them to answer AFTER they read the story.

mary rosenblum

And character motivation is always one of them unless I am absolutely sure I've made it clear.

smilingsunflower

What are your list of questions that you ask readers?

mary rosenblum

It changes with every story, sunflower. I don't always have questions for every reader...

mary rosenblum

but then I've been doing this a long time and I'm a bit more objective about what works and where I"m not sure of my effect.

mary rosenblum

I asked a LOT more questions when I was first writing stories.

mary rosenblum

That's one of the benefits of a writers group...after your work is critiqued you can ask specific questions of your critiquers...

mary rosenblum

but you can also give readers a written list, too.

mary rosenblum

The main thing to remember with character is that we do not yet have that telepathic hyperlink.

mary rosenblum

If we don't put it on the page, the reader cannot know or guess or infer it.

mary rosenblum

And even if your plot is a bit thin, strong, realistic, and compelling characters can sell your story.

mary rosenblum

They're worth the work.

mary rosenblum

Even if your character seems unlikely to do what your plot requires...as with ducky's doctor...

mary rosenblum

if you think about it for a bit, you can find some reason in that person's past to justify the behavior you need.

mary rosenblum

And again...this is what craft is all about.

mary rosenblum

It is making what YOU know, available to the reader, too, but without TELLING.

mary rosenblum

Sort of telepathy through print, LOL.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour. :-) Do drop into our casual chat here tomorrow, same time same station...

mary rosenblum

we talk about anything at the casual chats. If you have a stuck story, it's a great place to get some suggestions...

mary rosenblum

and it's just a nice chance to talk with other writers.

mary rosenblum

Have a good week, all!

mary rosenblum

See you on the website.

 

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