Forum Transcripts

Collaborating 12/14/04

Event start time:

Tue Dec 14 12:05:20 2004

Event end time:

Tue Dec 14 13:26:50 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you all had a great weekend.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

This is a good time of year to take note of what is going on with the rush of holiday activities...

mary rosenblum

and think about writing something to sell for next year's holiday magazine issues.

mary rosenblum

You can't take pictures of that holiday market in July, so take them now!

mary rosenblum

And if ideas occur to you and you're just too busy to do much right now in terms of writing...

mary rosenblum

then make a few notes and stick them into a file...one you can find later! :-)

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about collaborations today...

mary rosenblum

because they can be very rewarding and a nice way to learn more about craft.

mary rosenblum

I really enjoy collaborations because ideally, the two collaborating writers have to unify their different styles and techniques...

mary rosenblum

so that the final product seem to be the work of one writer rather than a patchwork.

mary rosenblum

I've collaborated with several writers and I really enjoy it

pook

Do both people write? can one just be the idea person?

mary rosenblum

You can do it that way, pook.

mary rosenblum

But there are some things to think about when you blythely agree to a collaboration.

mary rosenblum

You really DO need to consider the legalities of what you are doing.

mary rosenblum

Your words will be around forever. The friendship may not last that long!

mary rosenblum

AND...if two people do disparate amounts of work on something...one has a cool idea, say, but the other person writes/revises/sells a 400 page novel...

mary rosenblum

who gets how much money? Is the idea worth as much as the writing?

mary rosenblum

Would the idea have sold if the writing had been badly done? Would the writing have sold with a different idea?

mary rosenblum

What IS the split here? Forty-sixty? Fifty-fifty? Ten-Ninety?

mary rosenblum

Better have that in writing before you sit down....and a few other things, too.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Even for a casual short story that might sell to a small magazine...stop and think.

mary rosenblum

The two of you create some really cool characters and a fabulous world.

mary rosenblum

Okay...who gets to use those characters? You start a novel and one of your shared characters is the MC...

mary rosenblum

and a great guy. And then your writing buddy publishes a short story...

mary rosenblum

where the MC is seduced to the 'dark side' and starts murdering and torturing...

mary rosenblum

Uh Oh! What about this character in YOUR book.

mary rosenblum

Do you change it....but you're using the world in which he fits...

mary rosenblum

and you've created this complicated universe and plot and written 400 pages of ms and now you have to start all over again...

mary rosenblum

As you can see...this can be a MAJOR problem!

mary rosenblum

And say writing buddy hasn't published the story yet, but is convinced that it will be an award nominee...

mary rosenblum

because of the power of the story as the good character's goodness is ruined.

mary rosenblum

You ask writing buddy to change the name/universe, but he won't because he knows readers LOVED that world...

mary rosenblum

and it won't be as powerful if he has to create a new MC/universe.

mary rosenblum

So.

mary rosenblum

What do you do?

mary rosenblum

Besides call each other nasty names...

mary rosenblum

If both of you insist and the publishers find out that this argument is going on...

mary rosenblum

they'll drop the story and book because they don't want to risk a lawsuit from one of the writers...

mary rosenblum

and the copyright here is TOTALLY MURKY.

mary rosenblum

SO...

mary rosenblum

every time I have collaborated in even the mildest form...such as letting a friend use a characater of mine in their work..

mary rosenblum

as a bit of an inside reward for overlapping fans...

mary rosenblum

the permission was written down and we both signed a copy for each of us.

mary rosenblum

I recently collaborated with a mystery/sf writer who is also a trial lawyer, bless him,

mary rosenblum

and he was really a stickler for spelling out who owned what.

mary rosenblum

We decided who owned what character (we wrote a dual POV novellette) and who further use of those characters would be handled.

mary rosenblum

Believe me, it's worth it. I gave up 70,000 words of completed novel because of a collaboration that didn't work out...

mary rosenblum

and because of the bad feeling it engendered, I have been careful since not to even seem to trespass on that mutual world...

mary rosenblum

out of concern that the other person might cause trouble.

mary rosenblum

Which is too bad, because I had already set some SF stories in that universe and would have liked to use it.

mary rosenblum

But because we didn't spell out who owned what, threat of legal action would have cost me the publication anyway.

mary rosenblum

So I simply had to kiss that universe goodbye.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

pook

I need some guidance on how you get that far.

mary rosenblum

How you get how far, pook?

mary rosenblum

If you and someone want to work together...and it is SUCH a fun thing to do!...then

mary rosenblum

be adults about it. Decide who can use what and how...

mary rosenblum

It is not a really good idea to make it a case of 'we both have to agree before either of us uses this character/universe..'

mary rosenblum

Because what if you end up hating each other? You think you'll ever get permission?

mary rosenblum

Just realize that if you do make that agreement and the friendship goes sour, write that universe off!

mary rosenblum

The other thing to consider is what if you are collaborating on a novel and one of you quits?

mary rosenblum

If the other finishes...does all the work, sells it...does the original collaborator get anything?

mary rosenblum

If not, you better have that in writing, too, because every word that person wrote belongs to that person, as do the characters she created.

mary rosenblum

You can' t just say, 'well, you didn't do anything with them so they're mine now'.

mary rosenblum

That's not how copyright law works, and we all need to be glad that that's so!

mary rosenblum

But if one of the collaborators decides to quit, you both need to decide if the other can continue, and if so...

mary rosenblum

it behooves the person quitting to resign all rights to the material.

mary rosenblum

That's what I did when the collaborative novel went sour.

mary rosenblum

The other person never did finish it, but if he had, it would have been his novel and not mine at all.

ladybug

Does the same hold true for working with an artist?

mary rosenblum

Ladybug, it's going to be very similar...

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I don't really know how different things might be...

mary rosenblum

but think about your worst case scenarios with your artist partner and make a written agreement.

phil-w

How about a wife husband team? She interviews and I write?

mary rosenblum

Phil, this is getting into the legal arena and I"m not a lawyer. :-) Long as you don't get divorced you're fine.

mary rosenblum

I do know some writers whose copyright is protected from divorce by prenuptual agreement, and copyright CAN be a hot issue in a divorce...

mary rosenblum

That's one where you'd have to consult a lawyer...but it COULD get quite ugly...

mary rosenblum

if husband and wife team produce a top selling fantasy series, say, and then divorce.

mary rosenblum

It would probably be a good idea to discuss it. :-)

patchworkcat

For the nonfiction book I've been asked to write, the other person will provide the initial background and the contacts to round out the information. I'll be doing the actual writing. So the finished book would be mine to publish, right?

mary rosenblum

Pook, you are on dangerous ground here.

mary rosenblum

Let's look at your worse case scenario.

mary rosenblum

Patch...

mary rosenblum

I'm sorry.

mary rosenblum

My fingers are dyslexic...

mary rosenblum

Anyway...

mary rosenblum

Say you write the entire thing and it sells for a huge amount of money.

mary rosenblum

But your source comes to you and says, hey, you would never have sold this without my information...

mary rosenblum

so I want half.

mary rosenblum

And you (rightly in my way of thinking), say, the book wouldn't exist if I hadn't written it and I'll give you five thousand dollars as a thank you. (The advance was say 50,000)..

mary rosenblum

and the person hires a lawyer who writes a letter to the publisher...

mary rosenblum

and guess what?

mary rosenblum

The book is dropped like a red hot stone.

mary rosenblum

Anytime that you use information or an idea that someone offers you...

mary rosenblum

you really need to get a signed release either stating that the person waves all rights to this idea/information...

mary rosenblum

or agreeing to accept a specified amount for the contribution.

mary rosenblum

Now realize that ideas are NOT copyrightable, BUT publishers just won't deal with lawsuits...

mary rosenblum

and lawyers will sometimes press a suit that they know they're unlikely to win...

mary rosenblum

in order to get an out of court settlement.

mary rosenblum

Marion Zimmer Bradley lost a complete novel when a fan hired a lawyer...

mary rosenblum

to inform the publisher that Marion had stolen her idea. Since Marion had worked with the fan...it wasn't a total crank accusation...

mary rosenblum

the publisher dropped the book. Considering what MZB got for her books in later years, that one really hurt.

margieh

Would it be enough to have a written agreement notorized?

mary rosenblum

That's probably a good idea. Two signed copies is probably enough...

mary rosenblum

I haven't bothered to notarize anything...usually these things are done via mail, so we'd each have to notarize separately...

mary rosenblum

but it does provide a concrete proof that the document was signed.

christopher dale

to Patch'es (AKA Pook ;-P) I would say consult an attorney. And set up a contract explicitly stating what is YOURS , what is shared and what is THEIRS... This comes from personal experience developing software. I ALWAYS have a clause stating that

christopher dale

***I** own the source code. I can sell it any way I want. It's mine. If THEY want it, they pay me for it! Big Time!!!

mary rosenblum

I agree, Chris...and if you allow someone to use your work, do be sure to have them sign something similar..remember...

mary rosenblum

you are granting them limited permission and a 'he said, I did not' argument later is not going to help you if money and lawyers are involved!

margieh

Sounds like you always need a lawyer to collaborate. . .

mary rosenblum

Oh now. Goodness, rarely is there that much money involved...

mary rosenblum

it's mainly to save you an ugly conversation with your ex collaborator later!

mary rosenblum

Think about what could happen, write down some rules... (you get this, I get that, if we break up before this gets published, what do we do?)...and sign it.

mary rosenblum

Both of you.

patchworkcat

So we need to spell out every possible detail in some kind of contract and sign it BEFORE I write the first word. Right?

mary rosenblum

Yes. And in your case, patch, you need to get your source to clearly state what that person expects to get from this exchange, and that this is ALL he/she will get.

mary rosenblum

That's the most important point...and really the only point you need to cover.

mary rosenblum

This IS dangerous ground, in terms of publishing complications. I have an ironclad rule...I will NEVER use an idea offered to me by a fan. EVER.

mary rosenblum

From another writer...maybe...depends on who it is. :-)

mary rosenblum

Writers know that ideas are not what sells your work, it's what you do with 'em, but non writers...

mary rosenblum

tend to have pretty unreasonable expectations of the value of their idea

curseofthe44

I am in a course that has students submit ideas and stories. When I joined, it was a sort of unwritten thing that any ideas presented could be used by any of the other students in the class. This sort of concerns me. Should I be concerned not only for ideas that I present, but for any stories that I submit? The stories are presented to the entire class as well.

mary rosenblum

Well the idea thing is perfectly reasonable, curse, for the reason I just stated. Ideas have no value until they are turned into a story...

mary rosenblum

I routinely use a workshop exercise where I spell out a story plot very carefully and everybody writes the same story. WOW are they different!

mary rosenblum

If the ideas are for free exchange, that's fine. The stories should not be, and I've never run into a workshop that considered stories to be community property.

mary rosenblum

But ideas are NOT copyrightable.

mary rosenblum

And they CAN produced a dozen very different and equally saleable stories.

tory

Mary is that how so many of these compilation-type books get done. I see a lot under a well-known author's name but they are really a collection of experiences, etc. I've also received invitations to contribute--for nothing. Hm-m.

tory

Mary, my quest 103 was about "releases for information use"

mary rosenblum

ARe you talking about collections edited by that big name with maybe a piece by her/him? I'm not sure what you're asking.

christopher dale

Ideas are like weeds. Everyone has a bunch, and some may look great to you, but not to everyone else. BAHAAHAH! ;-)

mary rosenblum

How true...and like flowers...

mary rosenblum

a bunch of dasies in a rusty coffee can does not equal a perfect ikebana arrangement on a slab of jade using those same daisies!

christopher dale

A colaberation I have with a friend, we are both mutually agreeing, verbally, on 50/50. But I believe we BOTH realize that once we go to more than just whiteboard and talking we will need something in writing....

mary rosenblum

Yep...do make that transition from verbal to written.

mary rosenblum

Verbal is fine as long as you are both friends....

mary rosenblum

but oh, there are SO many stories about what happens when the friendship dies and the writing is still there!

margieh

If you publish a poem with a character in a mag...

margieh

Is that character yours to use in fiction later?

mary rosenblum

Yep. Unless you gave them all rights, and even then...you know what? You can claim that the all rights didn't include the character and I can't imagine...

mary rosenblum

a magazine having a problem with your using the character elsewhere.

margieh

...can anyone use that character

mary rosenblum

NOBODY else can use your character.

mary rosenblum

Characters are copyrighted like words.... you cannot use Frodo in a story...

mary rosenblum

He belongs to the JRR estate.

tory

Yes, Mary, the "big name" gathers (and maybe edits) but the bok isreally a collection by others. And the others receive only a copy of the book. Seems something is missing from the equation. I wondered if this was common?

mary rosenblum

Oh this is totally common...it's a theme anthology, or just an anthology and the Anchor Name sells it....

mary rosenblum

and it's a nice way to get into print as a newbie, even if you do it for free...

mary rosenblum

usually you get some sort of use agreement to sign, and if you don't, the copyright is still yours...

mary rosenblum

you just have to credit the anthology for first publication if you publish it elsewhere.

mary rosenblum

That's not a collaboration, it's the same thing as selling your work to a magzine.

mary rosenblum

You are offering anthology rights when you sign a contract.

speckledorf

Roe and I brainstorm ideas often, sharing them. But we always ask before using taking the other person's idea. And if she says she wants to use an idea, I respect that and use another. It has worked well for us...

mary rosenblum

I do that all the time with other writers. ;-) Only we don't 'excuse ourselves' from an idea...

mary rosenblum

if we both like the idea, we both write the story. :-) Sometimes we both sell the story.

christopher dale

I know that Lucas Arts will not even CONSIDER anything from an author if they (LA) have not asked them to write it. A LOT of ppl want to write for Star Wars, but LA won't even open it, they jsut return it. Which will DEFINATELY keep them out of court

mary rosenblum

Exactly. The reason they don't open them is that I'm sure they already have a dozen frivolous lawsuits dangling about from people claiming that their idea as stolen...

mary rosenblum

and lawyers DO take them, because studios and big publishers will pay money rather than go to court. Expensive, court! And sleezy lawyers know that.

christopher dale

the name is NOT but the character is. If I use Frodo as a mild manner nerd in a big matropolis, I am safe, although a lot of JFRR fans will totally trash me... :-0

mary rosenblum

Thankyou Chris, I should have made that clearer. It's like Homer Simpson...

mary rosenblum

you can certainly use that name for a character, as long as he is not THE Homer Simpson of TV...but oy vey what baggage you will bring along!

mary rosenblum

Collaboration is fun and it's a great way to grow creatively. But do take the time to write down a couple of paragraphs...

mary rosenblum

defining the rules. For example, I recently signed a piece of paper that said my friend Sage could use a particular character of mine...

mary rosenblum

in any way she saw fit in the novel (named in the document) that she was working on.

mary rosenblum

But it didn't give her permission to use her anywhere else.

mary rosenblum

And it's not as if I have any concern that she might do something I don't like with her...

mary rosenblum

even if Sage and I somehow became enemies. BUT...

mary rosenblum

what if she dies and someone finishes the book and publishes it...say her will designated...

mary rosenblum

someone to finish her unfinished work.

mary rosenblum

And since we didn't sign anything, and Sage's will allows the person who finished the book...

mary rosenblum

to retain the copyright...what happens to my character? See what I mean...

mary rosenblum

You can't think of ALL the potential problems, but a simple...'you can do this, I can do that, and neither of us can do this' is worth it.

wyrde

To be a little clearer, a hero is a hero, and many of them are similar, it would have to be the character AND the name to be a copyright issue, would it not?

mary rosenblum

Right, wryde. You can have a futuristic hero named Aragorn and you're not infringing on Tolkien's copyright for the name.

mary rosenblum

BUT...if you set Aragorn in a Tolkien world and he's clearly the same character...you will probably get a 'cease and desist' letter from a lawyer for the estate..or the publisher will.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

The simplest thing to do is to write down what share of money each person gets...50/50 is usual.

mary rosenblum

If one person does all the work...too bad!

mary rosenblum

Or it it's an idea/writing issue, decide what the idea is worth. 20/80...what have you.

mary rosenblum

Then write down who controls waht character if you're both writing...

mary rosenblum

or how you can use the universe characters...

mary rosenblum

The simplest thing is to say: we have equal rights to use all characters and details of the universe in subsequent single works, without permission.

mary rosenblum

That means each of you can use charactes/universe in any way you want.

mary rosenblum

And neither of you can say no.

mary rosenblum

If you KNOW that you want to use Character A in a novel...

mary rosenblum

then state : Character A is the exclusive property of .... and cannot be used in subsequent work without written permission from .....

mary rosenblum

That safeguards your MC>

mary rosenblum

I've done that when I knew I'd use that character again.

wyrde

in practical terms, how do you divvy up the work if each writer is responsible for a particular character?

mary rosenblum

Oh there are many ways, wyrde! That's the fun of collaboration.

mary rosenblum

You can write in the same room, sharing every sentence....

mary rosenblum

Jim and Joyce Lavene, the husband/wife writing team do that.

mary rosenblum

I usually do these by email...and I have done different things.

mary rosenblum

Jim Sarafin and I did a SF novelette that ended up getting published in...are you ready for this?...a law magazine after it was published in Asimov's...

mary rosenblum

called One Good Juror. Looked at law in the future...

mary rosenblum

And we had dual POVS. I took the man, he took the woman.

mary rosenblum

We traded back and forth, each writing the scene containing OUR pov, and alternating scene/POV...

mary rosenblum

the other person revised, and we both revised the finished draft separately.

mary rosenblum

Nobody could tell which of us had written what.

mary rosenblum

I've traded scenes with authors where we both handled all the characters...

mary rosenblum

We agreed on a rough plot outline, I wrote a scene, sent it to my buddy, who wrote the next scene, sent it back...

mary rosenblum

we commented, argued, and changed the plot as we went and it was fun.

mary rosenblum

Do it any way that works...

mary rosenblum

some novel collaborators take turns with chapters or divide up by POV...

mary rosenblum

that sort of thing.

mary rosenblum

Or they use a paralell plot line.

mary rosenblum

EAch takes one.

mary rosenblum

But since you are each trying to adapt your writing style/voice to your buddy, you really have to stretch your craft and it's a great learning experience.

mary rosenblum

I love doing it.

mary rosenblum

I don't mean to make it sound as if you need to spend hundreds of bucks to have a lawyer draw up a legal contract...you don't!

mary rosenblum

BUT...I have gotten several queries from novices who started a novel, now want to use the characters in a story...

mary rosenblum

and are fighting with former collaborators. It can get messy.

mbvoelker

Anything to know in particular about collaborating on non-fiction projects?

mary rosenblum

Same thing, mbv. Decide who is doing what, who owns what, and how much each gets paid.

mary rosenblum

And here, where it is common to write multiple articles from one information pool...

mary rosenblum

what about later? What if you both write competing articles targeting the same magazines after you finish the initial project?

mary rosenblum

How do you want to divvy that up?

mary rosenblum

These issues are good practice. They are the kinds of issues that make book contracts as long and complex as they are...

mary rosenblum

and you need to take your rights seriously. They will feed you if you become a full time pro...

mary rosenblum

and you need to know how not to lose income!

mary rosenblum

As a novice, nobody thinks of words as 'property' like gold coins, but they are you know.

mary rosenblum

If you and your friend create a necklace from expensive beads, wouldn't you both decide ahead of time how much each person got?

mary rosenblum

Of course, it's more complicated since with words, you can make many necklaces from those same beads...

mary rosenblum

so who actually owns those beads, and which beads?

mary rosenblum

And it's fine to simply say...we both have equal rights to these characters and world...

mary rosenblum

and if you're friends, do that. Then stay friends!

mary rosenblum

But do give it a try...

mary rosenblum

it's a great way to gain some new inspiration, too...

mary rosenblum

No two writers work and think exactly alike!

mary rosenblum

Any final questions?

mary rosenblum

Well, have a good week! Do drop into our casual chat same time same place tomorrow.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript at the usual place: writing craft: forum transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Have a good day, all

 

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