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mary rosenblum
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Hello, all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you all had a great
weekend.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today
we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a good time of year to
take note of what is going on with the rush of holiday activities...
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mary rosenblum
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and think about writing
something to sell for next year's holiday magazine issues.
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mary rosenblum
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You can't take pictures of
that holiday market in July, so take them now!
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mary rosenblum
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And if ideas occur to you and
you're just too busy to do much right now in terms of writing...
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mary rosenblum
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then make a few notes and
stick them into a file...one you can find later! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about
collaborations today...
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mary rosenblum
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because they can be very
rewarding and a nice way to learn more about craft.
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mary rosenblum
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I really enjoy collaborations
because ideally, the two collaborating writers have to unify their
different styles and techniques...
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mary rosenblum
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so that the final product seem
to be the work of one writer rather than a patchwork.
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mary rosenblum
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I've collaborated with several
writers and I really enjoy it
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pook
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Do both people write? can one
just be the idea person?
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mary rosenblum
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You can do it that way, pook.
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mary rosenblum
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But there are some things to
think about when you blythely agree to a collaboration.
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mary rosenblum
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You really DO need to consider
the legalities of what you are doing.
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mary rosenblum
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Your words will be around
forever. The friendship may not last that long!
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mary rosenblum
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AND...if two people do
disparate amounts of work on something...one has a cool idea, say, but the
other person writes/revises/sells a 400 page novel...
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mary rosenblum
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who gets how much money? Is
the idea worth as much as the writing?
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mary rosenblum
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Would the idea have sold if
the writing had been badly done? Would the writing have sold with a
different idea?
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mary rosenblum
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What IS the split here?
Forty-sixty? Fifty-fifty? Ten-Ninety?
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mary rosenblum
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Better have that in writing
before you sit down....and a few other things, too.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today
we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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Even for a casual short story
that might sell to a small magazine...stop and think.
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mary rosenblum
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The two of you create some
really cool characters and a fabulous world.
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mary rosenblum
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Okay...who gets to use those
characters? You start a novel and one of your shared characters is the
MC...
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mary rosenblum
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and a great guy. And then your
writing buddy publishes a short story...
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mary rosenblum
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where the MC is seduced to the
'dark side' and starts murdering and torturing...
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mary rosenblum
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Uh Oh! What about this
character in YOUR book.
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mary rosenblum
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Do you change it....but you're
using the world in which he fits...
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mary rosenblum
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and you've created this
complicated universe and plot and written 400 pages of ms and now you have
to start all over again...
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mary rosenblum
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As you can see...this can be a
MAJOR problem!
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mary rosenblum
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And say writing buddy hasn't
published the story yet, but is convinced that it will be an award
nominee...
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mary rosenblum
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because of the power of the
story as the good character's goodness is ruined.
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mary rosenblum
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You ask writing buddy to change
the name/universe, but he won't because he knows readers LOVED that
world...
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mary rosenblum
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and it won't be as powerful if
he has to create a new MC/universe.
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mary rosenblum
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So.
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mary rosenblum
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What do you do?
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mary rosenblum
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Besides call each other nasty
names...
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mary rosenblum
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If both of you insist and the
publishers find out that this argument is going on...
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mary rosenblum
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they'll drop the story and
book because they don't want to risk a lawsuit from one of the writers...
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mary rosenblum
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and the copyright here is
TOTALLY MURKY.
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mary rosenblum
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SO...
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mary rosenblum
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every time I have collaborated
in even the mildest form...such as letting a friend use a characater of
mine in their work..
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mary rosenblum
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as a bit of an inside reward
for overlapping fans...
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mary rosenblum
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the permission was written
down and we both signed a copy for each of us.
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mary rosenblum
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I recently collaborated with a
mystery/sf writer who is also a trial lawyer, bless him,
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mary rosenblum
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and he was really a stickler
for spelling out who owned what.
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mary rosenblum
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We decided who owned what
character (we wrote a dual POV novellette) and who further use of those
characters would be handled.
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mary rosenblum
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Believe me, it's worth it. I
gave up 70,000 words of completed novel because of a collaboration that
didn't work out...
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mary rosenblum
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and because of the bad feeling
it engendered, I have been careful since not to even seem to trespass on
that mutual world...
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mary rosenblum
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out of concern that the other
person might cause trouble.
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mary rosenblum
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Which is too bad, because I
had already set some SF stories in that universe and would have liked to
use it.
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mary rosenblum
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But because we didn't spell
out who owned what, threat of legal action would have cost me the
publication anyway.
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mary rosenblum
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So I simply had to kiss that
universe goodbye.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today
we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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pook
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I need some guidance on how you
get that far.
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mary rosenblum
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How you get how far, pook?
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mary rosenblum
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If you and someone want to
work together...and it is SUCH a fun thing to do!...then
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mary rosenblum
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be adults about it. Decide who
can use what and how...
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mary rosenblum
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It is not a really good idea
to make it a case of 'we both have to agree before either of us uses this
character/universe..'
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mary rosenblum
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Because what if you end up
hating each other? You think you'll ever get permission?
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mary rosenblum
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Just realize that if you do
make that agreement and the friendship goes sour, write that universe off!
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mary rosenblum
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The other thing to consider is
what if you are collaborating on a novel and one of you quits?
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mary rosenblum
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If the other finishes...does
all the work, sells it...does the original collaborator get anything?
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mary rosenblum
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If not, you better have that
in writing, too, because every word that person wrote belongs to that
person, as do the characters she created.
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mary rosenblum
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You can' t just say, 'well,
you didn't do anything with them so they're mine now'.
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mary rosenblum
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That's not how copyright law
works, and we all need to be glad that that's so!
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mary rosenblum
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But if one of the
collaborators decides to quit, you both need to decide if the other can
continue, and if so...
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mary rosenblum
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it behooves the person
quitting to resign all rights to the material.
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mary rosenblum
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That's what I did when the
collaborative novel went sour.
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mary rosenblum
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The other person never did
finish it, but if he had, it would have been his novel and not mine at all.
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ladybug
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Does the same hold true for
working with an artist?
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mary rosenblum
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Ladybug, it's going to be very
similar...
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today
we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't really know how
different things might be...
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mary rosenblum
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but think about your worst
case scenarios with your artist partner and make a written agreement.
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phil-w
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How about a wife husband team?
She interviews and I write?
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mary rosenblum
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Phil, this is getting into the
legal arena and I"m not a lawyer. :-) Long as you don't get divorced
you're fine.
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mary rosenblum
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I do know some writers whose
copyright is protected from divorce by prenuptual agreement, and copyright
CAN be a hot issue in a divorce...
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mary rosenblum
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That's one where you'd have to
consult a lawyer...but it COULD get quite ugly...
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mary rosenblum
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if husband and wife team
produce a top selling fantasy series, say, and then divorce.
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mary rosenblum
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It would probably be a good
idea to discuss it. :-)
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patchworkcat
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For the nonfiction book I've
been asked to write, the other person will provide the initial background
and the contacts to round out the information. I'll be doing the actual
writing. So the finished book would be mine to publish, right?
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mary rosenblum
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Pook, you are on dangerous
ground here.
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mary rosenblum
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Let's look at your worse case
scenario.
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mary rosenblum
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Patch...
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mary rosenblum
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I'm sorry.
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mary rosenblum
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My fingers are dyslexic...
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mary rosenblum
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Anyway...
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mary rosenblum
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Say you write the entire thing
and it sells for a huge amount of money.
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mary rosenblum
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But your source comes to you
and says, hey, you would never have sold this without my information...
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mary rosenblum
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so I want half.
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mary rosenblum
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And you (rightly in my way of
thinking), say, the book wouldn't exist if I hadn't written it and I'll
give you five thousand dollars as a thank you. (The advance was say
50,000)..
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mary rosenblum
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and the person hires a lawyer
who writes a letter to the publisher...
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mary rosenblum
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and guess what?
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mary rosenblum
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The book is dropped like a red
hot stone.
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mary rosenblum
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Anytime that you use
information or an idea that someone offers you...
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mary rosenblum
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you really need to get a
signed release either stating that the person waves all rights to this
idea/information...
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mary rosenblum
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or agreeing to accept a
specified amount for the contribution.
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mary rosenblum
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Now realize that ideas are NOT
copyrightable, BUT publishers just won't deal with lawsuits...
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mary rosenblum
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and lawyers will sometimes
press a suit that they know they're unlikely to win...
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mary rosenblum
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in order to get an out of
court settlement.
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mary rosenblum
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Marion Zimmer Bradley lost a
complete novel when a fan hired a lawyer...
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mary rosenblum
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to inform the publisher that
Marion had stolen her idea. Since Marion had worked with the fan...it
wasn't a total crank accusation...
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mary rosenblum
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the publisher dropped the
book. Considering what MZB got for her books in later years, that one
really hurt.
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margieh
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Would it be enough to have a
written agreement notorized?
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mary rosenblum
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That's probably a good idea. Two
signed copies is probably enough...
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mary rosenblum
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I haven't bothered to notarize
anything...usually these things are done via mail, so we'd each have to
notarize separately...
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mary rosenblum
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but it does provide a concrete
proof that the document was signed.
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christopher dale
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to Patch'es (AKA Pook ;-P) I
would say consult an attorney. And set up a contract explicitly stating
what is YOURS , what is shared and what is THEIRS... This comes from
personal experience developing software. I ALWAYS have a clause stating
that
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christopher dale
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***I** own the source code. I
can sell it any way I want. It's mine. If THEY want it, they pay me for it!
Big Time!!!
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mary rosenblum
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I agree, Chris...and if you
allow someone to use your work, do be sure to have them sign something similar..remember...
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mary rosenblum
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you are granting them limited
permission and a 'he said, I did not' argument later is not going to help
you if money and lawyers are involved!
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margieh
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Sounds like you always need a
lawyer to collaborate. . .
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mary rosenblum
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Oh now. Goodness, rarely is
there that much money involved...
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mary rosenblum
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it's mainly to save you an
ugly conversation with your ex collaborator later!
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mary rosenblum
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Think about what could happen,
write down some rules... (you get this, I get that, if we break up before
this gets published, what do we do?)...and sign it.
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mary rosenblum
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Both of you.
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patchworkcat
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So we need to spell out every
possible detail in some kind of contract and sign it BEFORE I write the
first word. Right?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes. And in your case, patch,
you need to get your source to clearly state what that person expects to
get from this exchange, and that this is ALL he/she will get.
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mary rosenblum
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That's the most important
point...and really the only point you need to cover.
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mary rosenblum
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This IS dangerous ground, in
terms of publishing complications. I have an ironclad rule...I will NEVER
use an idea offered to me by a fan. EVER.
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mary rosenblum
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From another
writer...maybe...depends on who it is. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Writers know that ideas are
not what sells your work, it's what you do with 'em, but non writers...
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mary rosenblum
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tend to have pretty
unreasonable expectations of the value of their idea
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curseofthe44
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I am in a course that has
students submit ideas and stories. When I joined, it was a sort of
unwritten thing that any ideas presented could be used by any of the other
students in the class. This sort of concerns me. Should I be concerned not
only for ideas that I present, but for any stories that I submit? The
stories are presented to the entire class as well.
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mary rosenblum
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Well the idea thing is
perfectly reasonable, curse, for the reason I just stated. Ideas have no
value until they are turned into a story...
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mary rosenblum
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I routinely use a workshop
exercise where I spell out a story plot very carefully and everybody writes
the same story. WOW are they different!
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mary rosenblum
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If the ideas are for free
exchange, that's fine. The stories should not be, and I've never run into a
workshop that considered stories to be community property.
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mary rosenblum
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But ideas are NOT
copyrightable.
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mary rosenblum
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And they CAN produced a dozen
very different and equally saleable stories.
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tory
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Mary is that how so many of
these compilation-type books get done. I see a lot under a well-known
author's name but they are really a collection of experiences, etc. I've
also received invitations to contribute--for nothing. Hm-m.
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tory
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Mary, my quest 103 was about
"releases for information use"
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mary rosenblum
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ARe you talking about
collections edited by that big name with maybe a piece by her/him? I'm not
sure what you're asking.
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christopher dale
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Ideas are like weeds. Everyone
has a bunch, and some may look great to you, but not to everyone else.
BAHAAHAH! ;-)
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mary rosenblum
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How true...and like flowers...
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mary rosenblum
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a bunch of dasies in a rusty
coffee can does not equal a perfect ikebana arrangement on a slab of jade
using those same daisies!
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christopher dale
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A colaberation I have with a
friend, we are both mutually agreeing, verbally, on 50/50. But I believe we
BOTH realize that once we go to more than just whiteboard and talking we
will need something in writing....
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mary rosenblum
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Yep...do make that transition
from verbal to written.
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mary rosenblum
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Verbal is fine as long as you
are both friends....
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mary rosenblum
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but oh, there are SO many
stories about what happens when the friendship dies and the writing is
still there!
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margieh
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If you publish a poem with a
character in a mag...
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margieh
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Is that character yours to use
in fiction later?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep. Unless you gave them all
rights, and even then...you know what? You can claim that the all rights
didn't include the character and I can't imagine...
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mary rosenblum
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a magazine having a problem
with your using the character elsewhere.
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margieh
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...can anyone use that character
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mary rosenblum
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NOBODY else can use your
character.
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mary rosenblum
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Characters are copyrighted
like words.... you cannot use Frodo in a story...
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mary rosenblum
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He belongs to the JRR estate.
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tory
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Yes, Mary, the "big
name" gathers (and maybe edits) but the bok isreally a collection by
others. And the others receive only a copy of the book. Seems something is
missing from the equation. I wondered if this was common?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh this is totally
common...it's a theme anthology, or just an anthology and the Anchor Name
sells it....
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mary rosenblum
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and it's a nice way to get
into print as a newbie, even if you do it for free...
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mary rosenblum
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usually you get some sort of
use agreement to sign, and if you don't, the copyright is still yours...
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mary rosenblum
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you just have to credit the
anthology for first publication if you publish it elsewhere.
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mary rosenblum
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That's not a collaboration,
it's the same thing as selling your work to a magzine.
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mary rosenblum
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You are offering anthology
rights when you sign a contract.
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speckledorf
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Roe and I brainstorm ideas
often, sharing them. But we always ask before using taking the other
person's idea. And if she says she wants to use an idea, I respect that and
use another. It has worked well for us...
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mary rosenblum
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I do that all the time with
other writers. ;-) Only we don't 'excuse ourselves' from an idea...
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mary rosenblum
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if we both like the idea, we
both write the story. :-) Sometimes we both sell the story.
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christopher dale
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I know that Lucas Arts will not
even CONSIDER anything from an author if they (LA) have not asked them to
write it. A LOT of ppl want to write for Star Wars, but LA won't even open
it, they jsut return it. Which will DEFINATELY keep them out of court
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly. The reason they don't
open them is that I'm sure they already have a dozen frivolous lawsuits
dangling about from people claiming that their idea as stolen...
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mary rosenblum
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and lawyers DO take them,
because studios and big publishers will pay money rather than go to court.
Expensive, court! And sleezy lawyers know that.
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christopher dale
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the name is NOT but the
character is. If I use Frodo as a mild manner nerd in a big matropolis, I
am safe, although a lot of JFRR fans will totally trash me... :-0
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mary rosenblum
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Thankyou Chris, I should have
made that clearer. It's like Homer Simpson...
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mary rosenblum
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you can certainly use that
name for a character, as long as he is not THE Homer Simpson of TV...but oy
vey what baggage you will bring along!
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mary rosenblum
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Collaboration is fun and it's
a great way to grow creatively. But do take the time to write down a couple
of paragraphs...
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mary rosenblum
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defining the rules. For
example, I recently signed a piece of paper that said my friend Sage could
use a particular character of mine...
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mary rosenblum
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in any way she saw fit in the
novel (named in the document) that she was working on.
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mary rosenblum
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But it didn't give her
permission to use her anywhere else.
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mary rosenblum
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And it's not as if I have any
concern that she might do something I don't like with her...
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mary rosenblum
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even if Sage and I somehow
became enemies. BUT...
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mary rosenblum
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what if she dies and someone
finishes the book and publishes it...say her will designated...
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mary rosenblum
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someone to finish her
unfinished work.
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mary rosenblum
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And since we didn't sign
anything, and Sage's will allows the person who finished the book...
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mary rosenblum
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to retain the copyright...what
happens to my character? See what I mean...
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mary rosenblum
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You can't think of ALL the
potential problems, but a simple...'you can do this, I can do that, and
neither of us can do this' is worth it.
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wyrde
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To be a little clearer, a hero
is a hero, and many of them are similar, it would have to be the character
AND the name to be a copyright issue, would it not?
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mary rosenblum
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Right, wryde. You can have a
futuristic hero named Aragorn and you're not infringing on Tolkien's
copyright for the name.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...if you set Aragorn in a
Tolkien world and he's clearly the same character...you will probably get a
'cease and desist' letter from a lawyer for the estate..or the publisher
will.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today
we're talking about collaborations. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The simplest thing to do is to
write down what share of money each person gets...50/50 is usual.
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mary rosenblum
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If one person does all the
work...too bad!
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mary rosenblum
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Or it it's an idea/writing
issue, decide what the idea is worth. 20/80...what have you.
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mary rosenblum
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Then write down who controls
waht character if you're both writing...
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mary rosenblum
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or how you can use the
universe characters...
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mary rosenblum
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The simplest thing is to say: we
have equal rights to use all characters and details of the universe in
subsequent single works, without permission.
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mary rosenblum
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That means each of you can use
charactes/universe in any way you want.
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mary rosenblum
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And neither of you can say no.
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mary rosenblum
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If you KNOW that you want to
use Character A in a novel...
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mary rosenblum
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then state : Character A is
the exclusive property of .... and cannot be used in subsequent work
without written permission from .....
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mary rosenblum
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That safeguards your MC>
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mary rosenblum
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I've done that when I knew I'd
use that character again.
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wyrde
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in practical terms, how do you
divvy up the work if each writer is responsible for a particular character?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh there are many ways, wyrde!
That's the fun of collaboration.
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mary rosenblum
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You can write in the same
room, sharing every sentence....
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mary rosenblum
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Jim and Joyce Lavene, the
husband/wife writing team do that.
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mary rosenblum
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I usually do these by
email...and I have done different things.
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mary rosenblum
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Jim Sarafin and I did a SF
novelette that ended up getting published in...are you ready for this?...a
law magazine after it was published in Asimov's...
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mary rosenblum
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called One Good Juror. Looked
at law in the future...
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mary rosenblum
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And we had dual POVS. I took
the man, he took the woman.
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mary rosenblum
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We traded back and forth, each
writing the scene containing OUR pov, and alternating scene/POV...
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mary rosenblum
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the other person revised, and
we both revised the finished draft separately.
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mary rosenblum
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Nobody could tell which of us
had written what.
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mary rosenblum
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I've traded scenes with
authors where we both handled all the characters...
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mary rosenblum
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We agreed on a rough plot
outline, I wrote a scene, sent it to my buddy, who wrote the next scene,
sent it back...
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mary rosenblum
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we commented, argued, and
changed the plot as we went and it was fun.
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mary rosenblum
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Do it any way that works...
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mary rosenblum
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some novel collaborators take
turns with chapters or divide up by POV...
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mary rosenblum
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that sort of thing.
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mary rosenblum
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Or they use a paralell plot
line.
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mary rosenblum
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EAch takes one.
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mary rosenblum
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But since you are each trying
to adapt your writing style/voice to your buddy, you really have to stretch
your craft and it's a great learning experience.
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mary rosenblum
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I love doing it.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't mean to make it sound
as if you need to spend hundreds of bucks to have a lawyer draw up a legal
contract...you don't!
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...I have gotten several
queries from novices who started a novel, now want to use the characters in
a story...
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mary rosenblum
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and are fighting with former
collaborators. It can get messy.
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mbvoelker
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Anything to know in particular
about collaborating on non-fiction projects?
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mary rosenblum
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Same thing, mbv. Decide who is
doing what, who owns what, and how much each gets paid.
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mary rosenblum
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And here, where it is common
to write multiple articles from one information pool...
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mary rosenblum
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what about later? What if you
both write competing articles targeting the same magazines after you finish
the initial project?
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mary rosenblum
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How do you want to divvy that
up?
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mary rosenblum
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These issues are good
practice. They are the kinds of issues that make book contracts as long and
complex as they are...
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mary rosenblum
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and you need to take your
rights seriously. They will feed you if you become a full time pro...
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mary rosenblum
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and you need to know how not
to lose income!
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mary rosenblum
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As a novice, nobody thinks of
words as 'property' like gold coins, but they are you know.
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mary rosenblum
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If you and your friend create
a necklace from expensive beads, wouldn't you both decide ahead of time how
much each person got?
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, it's more
complicated since with words, you can make many necklaces from those same
beads...
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mary rosenblum
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so who actually owns those
beads, and which beads?
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mary rosenblum
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And it's fine to simply
say...we both have equal rights to these characters and world...
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mary rosenblum
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and if you're friends, do
that. Then stay friends!
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mary rosenblum
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But do give it a try...
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mary rosenblum
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it's a great way to gain some
new inspiration, too...
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mary rosenblum
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No two writers work and think
exactly alike!
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mary rosenblum
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Any final questions?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, have a good week! Do
drop into our casual chat same time same place tomorrow.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript at
the usual place: writing craft: forum transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good day, all
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