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mary rosenblum
|
Hello all. I'm afraid that I'm
going to have to cancel our Forum today. I came down with a very nasty
stomach virus last night and I'm simply not able to sit at this keyboard
for any length of time.
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mary rosenblum
|
I'll reschedule this topic for
next Tuesday's forum.
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mary rosenblum
|
I apologize, but the virus
won, this time around.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Have a good week, and I'll try
to make our casual chat in the morning.
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mary rosenblum
|
Thanks for your good wishes
all.
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mary rosenblum
|
See you tomorrow.
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mary rosenblum
|
Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
|
Welcome to our Friday After
Hours. I made it! I have recovered from my rather nasty stomach virus...
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mary rosenblum
|
I feel as if I have been away
from the website for weeks!
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about getting
from idea to I’m enclosing a brochure on writing a strong story that may
help you. . I’ve published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here,
remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word
bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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mary rosenblum
|
I thought I'd talk a bit about
the process of getting from idea to story....because a lot of people have
trouble with middles.
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mary rosenblum
|
And that is generally the
problem.
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mary rosenblum
|
You can have a great idea, you
know just how it's going to start...
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mary rosenblum
|
you know where you're going to
go, more or less...
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mary rosenblum
|
and then...you bog down in the
middle.
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mary rosenblum
|
Alas, a good beginning, an
end, and a great idea do not a story make. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Unless your story is a short
short...and of course, the early Long Ridge assignments ARE short shorts...
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mary rosenblum
|
You're going to need more than
a problem that gets fixed easily.
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mary rosenblum
|
Or you run out of conflict way
before you want the story to end.
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mary rosenblum
|
Or it becomes a loooooonnnng
boring trek to the end of the story with Nothing Much Happening.
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mary rosenblum
|
It's worth it to brainstorm
your story idea for awhile.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Go ahead and write that first
scene if you are simply on fire...
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mary rosenblum
|
but the minute you bog down
stop.
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mary rosenblum
|
It's time to start coming up
with some obstacles.
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mary rosenblum
|
Again...if you're writing a
1500 - 2000 word short story, you will rarely need MORE.
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mary rosenblum
|
You'll probably need less.
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mary rosenblum
|
But it's common to have a nice
big idea and then find yourself in the middle of the story...
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mary rosenblum
|
wring 'and then' scenes.
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mary rosenblum
|
And then this happened and
then that happened and then this happened and then they wrapped it all up
and went home...
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mary rosenblum
|
and those 'and then' scenes
aren't doing much except taking your characters to the climax.
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mary rosenblum
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Obstacles are small conflicts
that prevent your MC from achieving or getting closer to achieving his/her
resolution.
|
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janecj333
|
I'm working on a short short
where only the mc has dialogue, and it's mostly to herself. How little
conflict is acceptable?
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Well, Jane, since this is a
short short and it's internal monologue mostly, I'd say you're fine wiht a
single, internal conflict here.
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mary rosenblum
|
You can have an external
conflict, too.
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mary rosenblum
|
Mother and daughter are
arguing over a jar of pickles in the store...
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mary rosenblum
|
but the real conflict is in
the daughter's head...her anger at her boyfriend...
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mary rosenblum
|
and as the external fight over
pickles reaches its climax, daughter realizes she is behaving like her
mother with Boyfriend...
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mary rosenblum
|
and laughs and tells her
mother she is right and resolves to make up with Boyfriend.
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mary rosenblum
|
There you have an external and
internal that resolve together and is very doable in under 2000 words.
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mary rosenblum
|
But you could have her
remembering that fight over pickles as she shops...
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mary rosenblum
|
and never even speaking out
loud, just in internal monologue...
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mary rosenblum
|
and coming to the same climax
of realizing 'I'm behaving like my mom' and resolution 'I'll make up with
boyfriend'.
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mary rosenblum
|
Where you generally end up
needing to add extra conflicts is in a larger story.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Say you have an idea for
Ellery Queen or a SF magazine and you figure it'll run 5000 - 6000 words...
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mary rosenblum
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A single rise to the climax,
as in my pickle-fight illustration, is not going to be enough for a larger
story.
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robastor
|
The example of the internal
monologue; I was once told that isn't a story. Is that a matter of
conjecture?
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mary rosenblum
|
Not at all.
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mary rosenblum
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As long as you have conflict
and resolution, even a subtle one and the CHARACTER CHANGES even
subtly...you have a story.
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mary rosenblum
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There are people who apply
very rigid and formulaic definitions of 'story'.
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mary rosenblum
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But no matter how you do it:
conflict/resolution/character change. That's it.
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robastor
|
That's how I saw it, too. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Remember that there is no
Panel of Judges to stamp how-to books on writing with 'TRUE'...'NOT
TRUE".
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mary rosenblum
|
If a publisher thinks the book
will sell, it's published.
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mary rosenblum
|
Most books are variations on
the 'how to' theme, but some writers are VERY rigid in their definitions.
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mary rosenblum
|
When you run into a lot of
'always' and 'never'...maybe you should read a different book.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about getting
from idea to I’m enclosing a brochure on writing a strong story that may
help you. . I’ve published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here,
remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word
bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But once you get beyond short
shorts, remember to complicate life for your MC as much as you can.
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mary rosenblum
|
We love to see characters
struggle. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
You can throw in external
complications such as a flash flood that strands our MC when she
desperately needs to talk to her sister about something.
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mary rosenblum
|
Or they can be internal. The
ex husband is on the same cruise as our MC and her new husband.
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mary rosenblum
|
And she's supposed to be
solving a mystery. Now this!
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mary rosenblum
|
For a short short you probably
don't need extra complications.
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mary rosenblum
|
For a short story, you might
need one or two...
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mary rosenblum
|
but as you move through
novelette to novella to novel...
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mary rosenblum
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you will need more and they
will expand into full fledged subplots.
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janecj333
|
Maybe the meaning in a short
short is that nothing changes?
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mary rosenblum
|
Not necessarily. YOu see a
laot of 'slice of life' short shorts...but you see some real stories...
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mary rosenblum
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where the change is implied
and happens in the near future, but we know it's coming.
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mary rosenblum
|
And that is much harder to
pull of f than a slice of life, of course.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Of course, the catch 22 here
is that the obstacle that gets in the way of your MC's success..
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mary rosenblum
|
needs to be important to the
story most of the time.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
While you CAN have that river
flood, be sure to plant that bad weather early on...
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mary rosenblum
|
or the reader thinks
'convenient device'.
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attybern
|
How would any of this apply to a
true story?
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mary rosenblum
|
Well a true story isn't
fiction, attybern.
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mary rosenblum
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It's nonfiction, but is told
with the same techniques as fiction. It's known as personal narrative most
of the time..
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mary rosenblum
|
If you're telling a story from
real life, you can't just add made up complications...
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mary rosenblum
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you depend on what really
happened.
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attybern
|
No, but the complications are
there to present.
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mary rosenblum
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Then you simply use those
complications.
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mary rosenblum
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Think about what you enjoy in
a story.
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mary rosenblum
|
Most people don't want
something as simple as Jane lost her car keys.She was about to be late for
work. but she found them, drove a bit faster, and got there in time.
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mary rosenblum
|
We have a conflict and
resolution right?
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mary rosenblum
|
And Jane has probably changed
as a character...she is wiser about putting her keys where they belong.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a valid story.
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mary rosenblum
|
Do you think a magazine editor
is going to buy it?
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mary rosenblum
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But we can add complications
to make this more interesting to the reader.
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neo
|
There are stories and there are
stories. Reports of events and features, in nonfiction, may be good reading
without being "stories" in the fiction sense.
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mary rosenblum
|
Very little 'personal
narrative' actually fits the definition of a story, you're right neo.
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mary rosenblum
|
If you read Patrick McManus's
humorous narratives, or Bailey White's...
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mary rosenblum
|
they are mostly descriptions
of events involving themselves and friends or relations.
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mary rosenblum
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And they're a great read.
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mary rosenblum
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There are many ways of
entertaining readers. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
No matter what definition that
writing fits into.
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mary rosenblum
|
Rather, I should say, there
are many ways of connecting with readers...
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mary rosenblum
|
because it often goes deeper
than merely entertaining.
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mary rosenblum
|
As to Jane's rather unexciting
search for her keys...
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mary rosenblum
|
It would be easy to turn this
into a short romance...or a humor story...
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mary rosenblum
|
or even a mystery...simply by
adding different complications to her search for her keys and attempt to
get to work on time.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And ultimately this very
simple little conflict/resolution/character change could evolve into
several...
|
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mary rosenblum
|
very different and much more
complex stories, each with a different character change and resolution.
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mary rosenblum
|
As a pro you spend a lot of
time doing exactly this...
|
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mary rosenblum
|
because you get invited to
write for anthologies. So you have a limited amount of time to
start...usually...with a specific idea...
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mary rosenblum
|
and turn it into a story and
write it.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
So what complications could
turn Jane's story into a mystery/sf/fantays/romance piece?
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speckledorf
|
flat tire and cute repair
guy:--)
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mary rosenblum
|
There you go. One romance
coming up.
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mary rosenblum
|
She's lonely, recovering from
a nasty ex boyfriend, sort of isolated...
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mary rosenblum
|
gets that tire repaired and
ends up with a dinner date...
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mary rosenblum
|
and she gets to work on time
because he told her a short cut.
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mary rosenblum
|
So when he calls to invite her
to dinner, she says yes.
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telcontar
|
one cute repair guy with pointy
ears... if we wanna cram as many genres in as possible... :-D
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mary rosenblum
|
There you go, tel. Now we have
our romantic fantasy. :-) She has always wanted to pet a unicorn and she
just might get her wish.
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janecj333
|
the keys to her parent's vacant
house, where a million dollars in bearer bonds are stored in a safe, are on
the key ring
|
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mary rosenblum
|
She finds that as she is looking
for her keys. OR...it's her nasty ex boyfriend's house...
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mary rosenblum
|
and she knows he has a safe
full of embezzled cash in the safe behind the picture in the bedroom...
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mary rosenblum
|
and by golly the forgetful
idiot put the combination on the keyring.
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robastor
|
Stopped by police. Body in
trunk.
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|
roe
|
flat tire, cute tire repair guy
and body in the trunk
|
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mary rosenblum
|
There you are...our murder
mystery. It's her boyfriend's car, she sneaked it because she couldn't find
HER keys.
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mary rosenblum
|
He's out of town.
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janecj333
|
flat tire, cute tire repair guy
becomes body in trunk
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Now we're going dark! :-) Another
murder but this one is more suspense.
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mary rosenblum
|
You all are doing GREAT here.
|
|
geezer
|
thinks dog ate them so drags him
next door to vet for X-ray. Office is invaded by person looking for drugs.
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mary rosenblum
|
Action adventure..! We're
covering all the genres here.
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attybern
|
She finds keys but includes
another, not hers.
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mary rosenblum
|
There you go. Another mystery.
How did it get there? What is it to?
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mary rosenblum
|
Could be horror or fantasy.
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robastor
|
Driving to work. Suddenly ends
up somplace out of town, maybe on a another planet.
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mary rosenblum
|
Tried a shortcut and suddenly
we're not in Kansas anymore.
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mary rosenblum
|
Do you see what we're doing
here?
|
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mary rosenblum
|
By finding complications to a
pretty dull story idea, we have transformed into a half dozen stories...
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mary rosenblum
|
that are more complex and
vastly more fun.
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|
roe
|
all this from a missing set of
keys good story ideas
|
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mary rosenblum
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Yes...and they ARE good ideas.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
You could write a decent short
story from every one of them.
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mary rosenblum
|
So when you have a story idea,
don't be afraid to sit down and play...
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mary rosenblum
|
how can I complicate this?
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spider
|
Is it better to outline a short
short, or just write it outright?
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mary rosenblum
|
That's entirely up to you
spider.
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mary rosenblum
|
I don't usually have any
trouble holding anything up to short novelette in my head,so while I may
right a rough summary...
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mary rosenblum
|
of a paragraph or two, I don't
usually outline in detail.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But how you set out to write a
story is right when it works for YOU.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Doing something like this is a
very good idea...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
because you may find you have
a much stronger and larger story than you thought you had.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
I generally let this process
go on for a couple of days to a week or several...
|
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mary rosenblum
|
depending on complex and
satisfying the original story idea is or whether I think it's thin.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
What I see from students and
novice writers a lot, and what editors see in their slush piles a lot are
simplistic stories.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They are not as simplistic as
Jane and her car keys, but they are too thin to really...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
complete with the strong
stories in the slush pile.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But they are sound story ideas
and simply need some complications.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about getting
from idea to I’m enclosing a brochure on writing a strong story that may
help you. . I’ve published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here,
remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word
bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Usually I will end up with
three or four or even more possible ways to play a single story idea...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and I wait until one stands up
and waves at me to decide.
|
|
spider
|
So the key would be adding the
right complications, internal and external, to really make the story go.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
It is a way to take something
that is pretty familiar and make it unique.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That is why I often say
'everything has been done, so what?'.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The complications make that
same-old-same-old romeo-and-juliet into something that is not a copy of
Shakespeare...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and something that stands on
its own in the face of all the other million stories with that same
essential plot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about getting
from idea to I’m enclosing a brochure on writing a strong story that may
help you. . I’ve published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here,
remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word
bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
|
|
janecj333
|
When I'm writing novel length
work, most of my middle scenes stem from what each character wants...and is
a microcosm of their whole existence, in a way, showing them either getting
what they want or not
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's were a lot of solid
subplots come from jane....characters.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's why I tell novel writers
not to try and build all their subplots into their original summary when
they are roughing out a novel.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
As their characters evolve,
subplots will arise on their own.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well...since nobody will
oblige me and ask...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
what the difference is between
a subplot and a complication...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I'll just bring it up myself.
:-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Subplots are sort of 'grown
up' complications...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
that is they are conflicts
that get resolved separately from the main plot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Our complications were part of
the main plot...or what the main plot became.
|
|
geezer
|
So, the is a dramatic arch (?)
for a subplot and not a complication?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Exactly, geeze!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
the complications is
complicating the main plot but not separate from it.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
While the subplot is a
separate dramatic arc that is tied into the main plot somehow...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
but separate from it, too.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And 'complication' is my word
for this.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You may find it described in
writing books and givin a different label.
|
|
ltsonya
|
what would be an example of a
complication?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
All those ways we enriched and
complicated jane's search for her keys, ltsonya.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
(If you weren't here for that,
you'll find a host of cool examples in the transcript)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That example was about as
simple as 'boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy regains girl...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
which is the basic idea behind
what???? About half the fiction in the world?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Or the reverse gender version?
|
|
janecj333
|
I'll have you know, I've never
lost a set of keys in my life :)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
LOL jane. Apologies for using
your name...and you're WAY ahead of me, who has decided she needs to teach
her dogs to find her keys!
|
|
chessie
|
everyone loses their keys
eventually, which makes it work!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That does indeed add some
reader connection, chessie, you're right.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
As does the love thing
|
|
info
|
maybe your dogs lost the keys to
gain your attention
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Very likely. Except they LIKE
to ride in the van.
|
|
janp
|
To be politically correct--not
lost, temporarily misplaced :)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's right, jan. :-) Let us
not forget political correctness!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Next time you come up with a
story idea, see if you can't add some complications to it.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Write them down. Let your
imagination have at it for a couple of days.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Something may turn up that
really wows you.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Or you may decide your
original idea is just fine.
|
|
info
|
politically correct....something
like I'm not short, I'm vertically challenged
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yep, info. That's the one. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I have to say that rarely is
the story I write the story I thought I was going to write when I had the original
idea.
|
|
telcontar
|
short is so much faster
though... consise and all... and when you're worried about word count...
:-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
True tel, word count is a
reality...but if you're looking at publication, short is not nearly as
important as compelling...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and you are more likely...most
of the time...to find 'compelling' in your complications.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Not always. Some very short,
simple stories pack a whallop...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
but they tend to do that
because the idea itself is powerful.
|
|
geezer
|
politically correct=censorship
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It does, geeze and it's a
reality you face as a writer.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you write it this way, that
magazine might not take it.
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mary rosenblum
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But I figure another will
eventually.
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janecj333
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so, the middles of
novels=characters facing complications, not getting what they want, facing
worse hurdles
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mary rosenblum
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Right, jane.
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mary rosenblum
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In novel form where you have
lots more space...you can introduce complications...
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mary rosenblum
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like the ones we came up with
for our lost keys...but you can bring them in...
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mary rosenblum
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as the story progresses.
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mary rosenblum
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Your characters may discover
more reasons they can't reach their resolution.
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mary rosenblum
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They didn't know about them on
page one...
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mary rosenblum
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In a novel length work, it's a
great way to keep from bogging down in the middle...
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mary rosenblum
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play the 'complications game'
with your MC or one of your strong secondary characters...
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mary rosenblum
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and see what develops.
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info
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so basically, if I write a story
about a teen whose planet is being attacked and I know sort of know the
ending, I need to put in complications like being noticed when he is
sneaking around the enemy territory or rain and mudslides or something and
go from there, correct?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, and family and friends
and what is happening to them, strangers he meets who help or attack him...
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mary rosenblum
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your options are vast here,
info.
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mary rosenblum
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As that kid meets people, they
will bring their own complications into his life...
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mary rosenblum
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and their complications can
sprout complications...
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mary rosenblum
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it's like 'frost flowers'
forming...for those of you who live in cold climes.
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mary rosenblum
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Bringing a new character into
the story...a vivid and interesting secondary character...
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mary rosenblum
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can bring you a host of
interesting complications for the middle of a longer work or a novel.
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mary rosenblum
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If a criminal helps your teen,
info, she might bring that kid into a fascinating underworld we wouldn't
have seen otherwise.
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janecj333
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and complications that are not
physical...he learns that who everyone thought was attacking is really
someone else, and his best friend is in on it
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly.
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mary rosenblum
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I worked on a novel with
another writer some time back and that was the biggest problem with the
ms...
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mary rosenblum
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It was very straightforward
and followed the main plot and it was....boring.
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mary rosenblum
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And she had marvelous options
for myriad complications.
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mary rosenblum
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Once she started making use of
those, the novel began to come to life.
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mary rosenblum
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Now the other side of this
happy medium is not so good either.
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mary rosenblum
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You can have so many
complications in your novel or longer story...
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mary rosenblum
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that the plot is simply
obscured.
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mary rosenblum
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You have to find the balance.
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mary rosenblum
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Too much of anything is not
good.
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mary rosenblum
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Well we've about reached our
Oregon hour tonight. I think I"ll come into the auditorium and visit
awhile.
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geezer
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I just read a novel that was a
sting of fight scenes with the story crammed into the last two chapters.
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mary rosenblum
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yeah, you see that...military
SF is full of 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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Alas, publication is no seal
of quality.
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