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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've had a great
week.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about creating a
vivid setting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories
and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I discovered today that
my announcement of our Friday After Hours mysteriously vanished and did not
get sent.
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mary rosenblum
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So this is a surprise topic to
those of you who showed up.
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speckledorf
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I got it...at both my email
addresses:--)
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, good!
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mary rosenblum
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Glad to hear that. _I_ didn't!
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mary rosenblum
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I was beginning to think I had
dreamed that I sent it.
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mary rosenblum
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Did you get the annoucement
for today, Speck, or just for yesterday's interview?
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mary rosenblum
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I suspect you are thinking of
Thursday's interview announcement Speck.
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mary rosenblum
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This one seems to have simply
vanished. :-)
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speckledorf
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I'm almost positive I got the
one for today..talked about world building and making them real I think...
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mary rosenblum
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Oh well. :-) You're one of the
few.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about this
particularly because so many students and novice writers at workshops seem
to forget...
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mary rosenblum
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that they need to set the
reader firmly into a real universe when they begin a story.
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mary rosenblum
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And it doesn't matter whether
that universe is Cleveland, Ohio or a settlement on Mars....you need to
create it.
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mary rosenblum
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And if you write SF/fantasy,
or simply set your story in an unusual place in the real-world universe,
you will have to really give the reader specific details.
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mary rosenblum
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What novice writers don't
realize is that even a very usual setting needs vivid description.
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mary rosenblum
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The more the reader sees your
setting, the more real your story seems and the less it becomes...
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mary rosenblum
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a piece of second hand
information told to us by a stranger.
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mary rosenblum
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The difficulty is doing this
and NOT bogging down the pace of the story or slowing down a powerful
start.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a big challenge,
actually.
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mary rosenblum
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And even if your story is set
in Cleveland, a generic street is pretty boring compared to a vivid glimpse
of a particular block.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about creating a
vivid setting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories
and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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mary rosenblum
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The trick is to use specific
details that suggest a lot more details that you can then leave out. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Let's look at a city scene.
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mary rosenblum
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It's an ordinary city block.
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mary rosenblum
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The story starts in the wee
hours of the morning.
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mary rosenblum
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Let's say it's a mystery, and
our main character jams with jazz musicians after hours at a club.
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mary rosenblum
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So he's walking home through
the less than upscale streets at 2 AM, on his way home from the jam
session.
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mary rosenblum
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What details will make the
scene stand out for the reader...
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mary rosenblum
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and contribute to a sense of
darkness and maybe pending drama (since this is a mystery).
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mary rosenblum
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Want to suggest a couple?
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geezer
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A homeless man sleeping under
cardboard in an alley
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mary rosenblum
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That's good.
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archer
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broken street lights?
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cherley
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Someone in the shadow of the
doorway
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mary rosenblum
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Those are all good.
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mary rosenblum
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Maybe dumpsters and scrawny
cats like shadows.
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info
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fog and light rain
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speckledorf
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echoing footsteps?
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mary rosenblum
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That and the shadow in the
doorway add a nice sense of threat.
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cherley
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A streetwalker approaching him
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mary rosenblum
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Good. Or she might be the
shadow in the doorway...or it's her pimp.
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info
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sounds of something hitting or
clicking on mettle
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mary rosenblum
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Good.
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sweett
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how about a black limousine
slowly riding behind him
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mary rosenblum
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There's a nice bit of mystery.
Who is sliding along the empty streets in a limo at 2 AM?
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wolf122
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a solid thump coming from the
alley
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mary rosenblum
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These sounds are good
additions. All too often we skip sounds and go for the visuals.
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mary rosenblum
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The yowl of a cat.
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mary rosenblum
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Clatter of garbage
cans...rumble of distant truck...
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sallyk
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The smell of garbage from the
alley
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mary rosenblum
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Good! We've got three senses
working here.
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wolf122
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tinted with the acrid smell of
blood
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info
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add a touch of coldness
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mary rosenblum
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Good...a damp chill in the
air.
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mary rosenblum
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We've added our tactile sense.
Slippery squish of garbage underfoot...
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sallyk
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Stale beer and cigarette smell
on the MC's clothes
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archer
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the feel of cracked pavement or
blacktop and broken glass underfoot
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cherley
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Screams, gunshots or sirens
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mary rosenblum
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Good.
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sweett
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What if he's inebriated? Then
his senses are a bit off.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, illness, inebriation,
emotion...these will all color the details your character notices and the
character of those details.
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wolf122
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sweaty palms grabbing onto cold
garbage can
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info
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how about adding something from
the sixth sense? something like feeling something isn't right
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mary rosenblum
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That works, info, although
that's less about creating a vivid setting than giving us the
charaaterization.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about creating a
vivid setting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories
and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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mary rosenblum
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Now the trick here, is to
triage these details.
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mary rosenblum
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We can't use 'em all, not even
in a leisurely 'sightseeing' scene.
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mary rosenblum
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So let's go back to our
amateur detective leaving a jazz club after jamming with the musicians.
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mary rosenblum
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Let's say that this scene is
our start of the story and the MC will stumble over a body.
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mary rosenblum
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So we want to set up the scene
and give it a nice sense of pending drama...something is going to happen!
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mary rosenblum
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And we want the first scene to
have a dark, dangerous feel.
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mary rosenblum
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But of course, we can't
include a LOT of details or the start will bog down to a crawl and nobody
will read it.
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mary rosenblum
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If you look back over our
details, most of them will give us what we need here...
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mary rosenblum
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but we can't use them all.
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mary rosenblum
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Clifton left the Night Spot,
pulling his collar up against the chilly fog. The reek of garbage floated
in the thick air and a cat yowled followed by a clatter of cans.
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mary rosenblum
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Nice night. He eyed the hooker
prancing toward him,gave her a head shake and ignored her pout.
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mary rosenblum
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Spotted the shadow in the
doorway across the street and kept an eye on it. Good night for the
predators, he thought as he crossed thirteenth.
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mary rosenblum
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Stoplights bled red light into
the puddles and the slap of shoes behind him brought his head up.
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mary rosenblum
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If you notice, we have a LOT
of details in that first few sentences.
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mary rosenblum
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Here's the narrative
alternative...one I see a lot.
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mary rosenblum
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It was a chilly, foggy night
as Clifton left the jazz club, The Night Spot. The reek of garbage filled
the air and cats yowled in the alleys. Hookers prowled the streets and
stoplights bled red light into the puddles. It was a good night for the
predators.
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mary rosenblum
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I have used all the same
details, but notice the difference between the two examples.
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mary rosenblum
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In the first example, you find
near zero narrative distance.
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mary rosenblum
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The character's actions and
internal musings carry the reader forward and I can hang all kinds of
details on that ...
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mary rosenblum
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nice solid core of action
without stopping that forward momentum.
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mary rosenblum
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In the second version, the details
are also nice, but notice how it differs? We know that our MC is leaving
the jazz club. But then I laungh into a narrative about what the scene
looks like. Essentially...
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mary rosenblum
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I step us aside from our POV
and _I_ tell you what the street looks like.
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mary rosenblum
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They way to show the scene to
the reader is to let your MC do something that reveals those details to us.
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mary rosenblum
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Here, we started with the
details and then I built some plausible action into the scene to hang those
details on.
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cherley
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the first is much better
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, it is, cherley. :-) It is
much more likely to keep a reader reading.
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mary rosenblum
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Look over your scenes and see
if you can find this kind of 'expository lump' that I used in my second
example.
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mary rosenblum
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Then look at the scene and
figure out what your POV character can do that will allow us to see these
details in the course of his/her actions.
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mary rosenblum
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Also remember that readers
have short memories. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You need to keep on adding
setting details all the way through the story.
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mary rosenblum
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You can slip in a few details
in every scene, no matter what is going on.
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mary rosenblum
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And the more poweful the
details you use, the better.
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mary rosenblum
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A very good exercise, one I
recommend often, is one you can play as you run errands.
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mary rosenblum
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When you enter a new space...a
shop, a store, you drive up to a new gas station...
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mary rosenblum
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look around and a few minutes
after you leave, pull out a pad and pen and list all the details you can
remember.
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mary rosenblum
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Those are the ones that struck
you with the most force. Now sum up your subjective impression in ONE word.
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mary rosenblum
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Spooky? Neat? Cluttered?
Prosperous? Shabby?
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mary rosenblum
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NOW if you want to create that
feeling in your story, you know which details tend to give you that
impression.
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archer
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what if your world is SF and
includes many different "settings/creatures/planets or your setting is
real but consists of many cultures - the jazz session is part of an
international music festival etc.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, then it's just more work,
archer.
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mary rosenblum
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I do SF settings all the time.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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I intentionally design my
story openings to permit my POV to show my reader the sights.
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mary rosenblum
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By that I mean I have my POV
doing something that allows me to include the important details of people
and place.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that readers do not
need ALL the details right away.
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mary rosenblum
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If you give your SF reader a
few key details about this planet, culture, alien species...
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mary rosenblum
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you can keep feeding more and
more...one here, one there...until a complete picture developes.
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mary rosenblum
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You have until your climax to
build that picture and create those characters.
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mary rosenblum
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Where new writers get into
trouble is when they try to cram ALL the world details into the first
scene.
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sallyk
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Sounds like this is good for
non-fiction, too.
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mary rosenblum
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absolutely, sallyk.
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mary rosenblum
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Probably it's most important
with personal narrative nonfiction.
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t green
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In the case of the SF/Fantasy,
the reader alread expects a different world from reading the book cover or
jacket, yes? so you don't need to bombard the reader with ALL the details
in the first chapter?
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, t.
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mary rosenblum
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And regular SF readers are
better than a non SF person at extrapolating a universe from a very small
detail. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You need to decide...just as
we did with our urban setting..
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mary rosenblum
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which details will give the
reader the 'biggest picture'...the most bang for your buck. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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A few...three or four...of
these powerful details will really set up the scene.
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mary rosenblum
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You can bring in more and more
details as the action continues.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is another weakness
in novice writers.
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mary rosenblum
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Never miss an opportunity to
slip in a detail here a detail there.
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mary rosenblum
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I see pages of dialogue with
no visuals or an action scene were we don't see anything other than the
character's physical actions.
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archer
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what if its not a book, but a
really short story?
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mary rosenblum
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Same thing.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, if you write novel
length works with a short story prose intensity you will get a lot of kudos
from reviewers. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I know because I came to
novels as a short story writer and that prose intenisty has served me VERY
well.
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mary rosenblum
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The shorter your work, the
more power each detail must carry.
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mary rosenblum
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Poetry is at the short end of
the spectrum, novel series at the long end.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT if you use powerful
details for long works, you have a more powerful book.
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mary rosenblum
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That is, believe me, a VERY
good thing.
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ltsonya
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is it important to understand
the way our world 'works' to create one of your own? maybe not
physics/biology expert but have an understanding?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes in a lot of ways, ltsonya.
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mary rosenblum
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It is certainly true in
characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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If you really don't understand
how people work, you won't create real people.
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mary rosenblum
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You don't have to have a
degree in psychology, but you do have to notice how people react to each
other, relate, so on.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're building an alien
planet, you really DO need to know how planetary sized ecosystems work. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But there are some great
reference books out there.
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mary rosenblum
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My I recommend Steve
Gillette's book on World Building.
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mary rosenblum
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The main two things to keep in
mind in terms of creating realistic and vivid settings..
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mary rosenblum
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is to 'hang' those details on
a strong central core of action and to...
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mary rosenblum
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keep on adding visual details
in EVERY scene.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't hand the reader a
snapshot and then play out the story on a bare stage.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about creating a
vivid setting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories
and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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archer
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what are the pitfalls to avoid
if writing about culture / settings you don't have first hand knowledge of.
For example, sometimes I read things set in an "urban" setting
and I can tell the author doesn't know much about big cities etc.
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mary rosenblum
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Research, archer.
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archer
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it starts reading like a cliche
or stereo type ...
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mary rosenblum
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And probably is.
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mary rosenblum
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You don't have to GO there,
but you do have to find out some specific details about that place...
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mary rosenblum
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rather than using generics.
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mary rosenblum
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For example I've set a couple
of stories in Antarctica.
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mary rosenblum
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Cold/snow/ice...generic.
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mary rosenblum
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But when I started reading
personal accounts from people who had visited, I found all kinds of
wonderful details...
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mary rosenblum
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that only local people would
notice or know.
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mary rosenblum
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A sprinkling of those details
gave the story a lot of verisimilitude.
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speckledorf
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The same rules apply when
creating people to populate that world as when creating your MC right?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, ideally, every single
character in your story should be as real as your MC...
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mary rosenblum
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you don't have to know as much
about that secondary character, but it's not a bad idea to know nearly as
much.
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mary rosenblum
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They'll act much more like
real people and much less like stereotypes that way.
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geezer
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In a Koontz book, he had dunes
in a desert scene in the Mojave where there is Desert Pavement.
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mary rosenblum
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yeah, that's the kind of
'oops' we all try to avoid, geezer.
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mary rosenblum
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If I am setting my story in a
real world place, I put in quite a bit of time reading accounts of people
who have been there, looking at pictures, looking at MORE pictures...you
get the drift.
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carla
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if you are setting a scene from
a characters point of view ... through both narrative dialogue and through
thoughts ... does the thoughts get set off in a specific way ie. direct
dialogue is in quotations or this to confusing to the reader
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mary rosenblum
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You don't need any special
punctuation for thought, carla.
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mary rosenblum
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Some publishers insist on
using italic for direct thoughts (like dialogue), but direct thought tends
to be pretty clunky so just avoid it.
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mary rosenblum
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Paraphrase your thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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Jeremy looked over at Melanie.
"You've got to be kidding," he said. But she wasn't. He knew
that. Melanie never kidded about anything.
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mary rosenblum
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Jeremy is thinking that
Melanie never kids about anything.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about creating a
vivid setting. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories
and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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archer
|
in contemporary fiction, should
you avoid time sensitive details like slang or certain highly changeable
fashion trends? By the time the piece gets publish those trends may be dated.
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mary rosenblum
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That is a VERY wise move,
Archer. It's very easy to date your story that way.
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mary rosenblum
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And if you mention a trendy
movie or TV show and your reader hasn't watched it, you tend to make your
reader feel 'unwelcome 'in the story.
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gwanny
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My novel will be largely set in
and around a beautiful old home. I asked the owner for a tour, inside and
out, and took a couple of rolls of film. Developed them and put them on
bulletin boards around my computer. I feel ass though I am right there when
I write about it. It is helping more than I caan say.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a great idea, gwanny.
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mary rosenblum
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But here's a caveat for all of
you who research your setting...
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mary rosenblum
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it becomes very tempting to
include far more details than the scenes actually call for.
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mary rosenblum
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It gets hard to leave all
those lovely bits out, but you should use only as many details as the scene
needs.
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mary rosenblum
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Too many details can slow the
scene down to a crawl.
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info
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couldn't you still use fashions
to a point without dating the story? I mean, if you wish to use the fashion
as the person it from a different era so to speak?
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mary rosenblum
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Fashion works fine and can
transcend time pretty well if you make it clear what those details mean.
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mary rosenblum
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For example in Raymond
Chandlers books...written back in what...the late 30s?
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mary rosenblum
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He describes women wearing
high fashion. Clearly those clothes are of the time..
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mary rosenblum
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but he leaves no doubt that
this is high style in the context of this story.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you use a label name or
a clothing combination and leave it up to the reader to know what that
lable or type of clothing means...
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mary rosenblum
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then, in a few years, a reader
may have no clue.
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geezer
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Cherley wants to know if
daydreams go in quotes.
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mary rosenblum
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No. Daydreams usually work
best as paraphased thought, although you can do a 'Walter Middy' and turn
them into adventures. :-)
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archer
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if your up against a word count
limitations, is it better to cut setting details or dialogue or does it
just depend?
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mary rosenblum
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Entirely depends, archer.
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mary rosenblum
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Say your scene has dialogue
and setting.
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mary rosenblum
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If the dialogue is weak and
nattering and the setting shows the reader the scene where your climax will
occur...
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mary rosenblum
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maybe you need to cut the
natter.
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mary rosenblum
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If the setting will be used
again or has been visited already and the dialogue is strong...
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mary rosenblum
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maybe you should trim the
setting details.
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mary rosenblum
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Ask yourself 'what really
matters here'.
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mary rosenblum
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And it's 'what really matters
to the READER, remember'
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mary rosenblum
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And remember that the amount
of detail you include in a scene affects the tension of the scene.
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mary rosenblum
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The more detail you include
the less tension in a scene, usually.
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mary rosenblum
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For example, if your MC is
running down a street pursued by a killer...
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mary rosenblum
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she is only going to notice
obstacles to her flight or potential rescue.
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mary rosenblum
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She won't know whether she is
running past a shoe store, a grocery, or what have you if they are all
closed and dark and not a rescue option.
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mary rosenblum
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But if she is strolling down
the street on her lunch hour, she'll notice those shops and the merchandise
in them, will notice the planters full of petunias...the pigeons...etc.
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archer
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but she might notice a fire or
police station?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep...or even an open tavern
with cars parked out front.
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mary rosenblum
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If you try to have her running
for her life and describe the street like a travel brochure...it will sound
REALLY silly.
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mary rosenblum
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So those setting details are
like a seasoning in cooking...
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mary rosenblum
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use them sparingly, but make
them count.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't try to cram all of them
down the reader's throat in the first scene...
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mary rosenblum
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and use more when the scene is
relaxed, fewer when the scene is taut or full of action.
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info
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even though she wouldn't notice
things out of fear, wouldn't she notice something or think of where she
could go if she knew the area?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure...that's the 'obstacle'
thing.
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mary rosenblum
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If she knows the city, she'll
see landmarks that will guide her escape.
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mary rosenblum
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But she won't pay attention to
stuff that won't help her escape. She won't notice the new shoes in the
store window or the cool leather sofa in the furniture store window.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour. Sorry that the email didn't go through. I usually check in the
morning to make sure...
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mary rosenblum
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but didn't get online until
late today.
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us here Sunday evening
for our casual chat.
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mary rosenblum
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I should be here this Sunday!
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mary rosenblum
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No dog show!
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mary rosenblum
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We talk about writing, the
writing life, whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend, all!
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mary rosenblum
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Spare some thoughts for the
people watching Rita bear down on 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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Good night, all!
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript at
Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts
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mary rosenblum
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See you all on Sunday!
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