Forum Transcripts

Creative Nonfiction: Telling Real Stories 2/10/06

Event start time:

Fri Feb 10 19:03:30 2006

Event end time:

Fri Feb 10 20:35:45 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After Hours Forum.

mary rosenblum

I hope you've all had a great week.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about Creative Nonfiction tonight.

mary rosenblum

It's a growing market, has serious career potential, and combines the 'storycraft' of fiction...

mary rosenblum

with the reality of nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

Most nonfiction markets...not all, but most...accept it where they will not accept fiction.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

Right off the bat, I will recommend an excellent 'how to' book on the subject.

mary rosenblum

'Creative Nonfiction, Researching and Crafting Stories of Real Life' by Philip Gerard

mary rosenblum

It is published by Story Press and available on amazon.com

mary rosenblum

amazon link

lmel

Yes, I recommend it too!

mary rosenblum

It's very well written, very informative, and includes sections on legal issues, researching, how to find subjects, and the like.

dfitz

Would you define creative non-fiction vs non-fiction?

mary rosenblum

Creative nonfiction is essentially telling a true story rather than conveying information.

mary rosenblum

If I write a piece about training search dogs, that is an informational nonfiction piece.

mary rosenblum

If I write a piece about Sharon and her search-obsessive dog Kanga...

mary rosenblum

and I tell about one of their searches, giving it a dramatic arc, using characterization, description, all those devices to make it a 'good read'...

mary rosenblum

this is creative nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

I'm not telling the reader how to do anything, or conveying educational information...

mary rosenblum

I'm letting them share one of Sharon and Kunga's searches and turning the pair into real characters.

mary rosenblum

Creative nonfiction is primarily entertaining, although it can certainly teach readers things.

mary rosenblum

But it combines the entertainment of a story with the value of 'truth'.

mary rosenblum

Although you can stretch the truth a little...

mary rosenblum

just don't do as Frey did and make it up out of whole cloth! That is fiction.

sailor

Profile articles don't usually have a dramatic arc, do they?

mary rosenblum

The good ones do tend to have a certain amount of creative drama, sailor.

mary rosenblum

Often, the profiler will add anecdotes from the person's life that add brief dramatic arcs and a bit of dramatic interest.

sady

What about an historical article? Can that be done as creative nonfiction?

mary rosenblum

Good question, Sady.

mary rosenblum

There, you're probably going to fall over the line into 'historical fiction' if you make it too dramatic.

mary rosenblum

As long as you stick to known facts, you can present them with dramatic flair.

mary rosenblum

But as soon as you start putting words into George WAshington's mouth and telling us what he's thinking...

mary rosenblum

that is historical fiction.

lmel

Do you find literary journals good markets for cr. non-fic?

mary rosenblum

Only if they're written in literary style, lmel.

mary rosenblum

Virtually anything can work for a lit mag...if it is literary in form.

sallyk

Are there any publications or web sites you can suggest?

sallyk

To get a feel for what's being published?

mary rosenblum

Do the market lists, sally.

mary rosenblum

Much creative NF ends up in topic magazines...I don't know that magazines JUST for creative NF exist.

mary rosenblum

But say you write a piece about Mildred your wacky neighbor who obsesses about her garden...

mary rosenblum

you might sell it to one of several gardening mags.

mary rosenblum

Bailey White...who publishes collections of her creative NF pieces...started in garden mags.

lmel

The journal Creative Nonfiction is just such a beast.

mary rosenblum

Ah, so there are...

mary rosenblum

There's a magazine for EVERYTHING.

mary rosenblum

But again, most NF mags will accept it, so pick topic magazines whose readers might also like your piece.

mary rosenblum

Patrick McManus has sold a lot of his humorous hunting pieces to outdoor and hunting mags.

mary rosenblum

If I wrote up the search piece, I'd try it with Dog Fancy or one of the other big circulation dog mags.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

lmel

How would you qualify literary style--essays like E.B. White

mary rosenblum

I don't think you can clearly draw defining lines around any particular genre of writing, lmel...

mary rosenblum

White did literary essays...but in terms of literary fiction or literary creative fiction...

mary rosenblum

I think there, the main difference is that style and language matter more than anything else.

mary rosenblum

I think of it as the 'poetry' of the prose world, myself. But don't quote me on that...

mary rosenblum

because it's a very vague definition.

mary rosenblum

I talked it over with a creative writing PhD student at the last conference I was at...

mary rosenblum

and that 'words and language matter' definition was about the best we could come up with. :-)

lmel

I like that, and I think it's true of the masters!

mary rosenblum

Well, it does fit.

dfitz

would you consider Mark Twain's Jumping Frog of Calavarous county to be creative non-fiction?

mary rosenblum

Sure, although I bet you money Samuel made that one up out of whole cloth, LOL.

mary rosenblum

But if it was based on real people, then yeah, it would be.

mary rosenblum

Bailey White's stories, Patrick McManus's stories...

mary rosenblum

Alice Walker...

mary rosenblum

they all do creative nonfiction.

lapart

Mary, is the timing of your article relevant to the editor?

mary rosenblum

It certainly can be lapart.

mary rosenblum

right now, with the Olympics starting up, if you wrote the story of the guy who started out as a mechanic and made...

mary rosenblum

it into the Olympics...it would certainly catch an editor's eye.

mary rosenblum

A student of mine has been happily selling his narratives about life in the bush in Canada. He's seventy...

mary rosenblum

and those stories from his childhood and his tales from WWII are getting snapped up by editors of nostalgia mags.

mary rosenblum

Another of my students sold quite a few humorous stories about her father's various...

mary rosenblum

'careers' during the Depression.

keith harjes

how much times passes between editor reading article till it

keith harjes

is printed

mary rosenblum

hi, Keith. :-) That depends...

mary rosenblum

usually it will be six months to a couple of years.

mary rosenblum

But if the piece is timely, an editor may yank something and substitute the timely piece.

sady

I read that nostalgia is a big seller.

mary rosenblum

It's a reliable seller, sady. I nudge many of my older students in that direction...

mary rosenblum

and they find that their childhood is actually a gold mine. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

BUt...it's not just a matter of what you have personally experienced.

mary rosenblum

You can write about someone else's experiences.

keith harjes

What mags would you suggest for "Grandmother" stories?

mary rosenblum

Good Old Days is one, Grit takes 'em...

mary rosenblum

Think in terms of sub topics, too.

mary rosenblum

Did your Grandmother relocate here from Ireland or Germany?

mary rosenblum

Ethnic mags are a possibility.

mary rosenblum

If it's a farm story, a magazine like Countryside might take it.

keith harjes

She is Italian

mary rosenblum

I bet you can find magazines published for Italian Americans. :-)

lavinia

Mary, what are some examples of nostalgia magazines?

mary rosenblum

The two I mentions...many of the military mags look for nostalgia pieces...

mary rosenblum

Think about what topic your nostalgia piece overlaps...ethnic group, war, farming, San Francisco, West, South, NOrth, East...

mary rosenblum

then look for topic mags, regionals, and see if they accept personal narratives .

lmel

There is an Italian-American mag, try them!

mary rosenblum

I figured there was. :-)

sailor

Garrison Keilor tells lots of stories about Minnesota. To me, their entertaining when he tells them, but not when I read them. It's the same with David Sedaris. I can't figure out why. Their books sell, so obviously others do not agree with me.

mary rosenblum

Well, I agree with you, actually. :-) Both those men are performance artists and their strength is in their personal presentation.

mary rosenblum

I own Sedaris's books, because I really enjoy his performances, but I bought them because I enjoy him. :-)

mary rosenblum

I don't find them nearly as entertaining. Performance art does not translate well to print.

mary rosenblum

But I have never heard Patrick McManus's voice and his prose can make me laugh so hard I have had to sit...

mary rosenblum

down on the floor or fall down.

robastor

Renaissance is another that takes nostalgia stories and articles.

mary rosenblum

Oh, there are many!

sailor

What would it take to make their writing more entertaining?

mary rosenblum

I think they would have to learn to do with words on the page what they do with timing and tone of voice.

mary rosenblum

I have actually spent a fair amount of time figuring this out...

mary rosenblum

it's how you make dialogue sound real. :-)

mary rosenblum

When you only use words on the page, you learn how to create the timing and tone of voice that you use in a live presentation...

mary rosenblum

through your words.

mary rosenblum

But both these men mostly work in live presentation and I just don't think they're as skilled with words on the page.

mary rosenblum

It's a craft issue, I believe.

mary rosenblum

And I can't do a live presentation that is as good as what I can write. So it works both ways. :-)

dfitz

Would a creative non-fiction piece qualify as an article as required for lesson 3?

mary rosenblum

I have always thought so. :-)

lapart

how do most novice writers learn the market ?

mary rosenblum

The way everybody does...reading the market lists, lapart.

mary rosenblum

Then you start finetuning that learning as you get feedback from queries or submissions.

mary rosenblum

You find out which editors want what.

mary rosenblum

If you discover creative NF writers you like, watch for their names in magazine indexes.

mary rosenblum

If that writer shows up in this mag, they are open to creative NF.

keith harjes

How important is reading a mag you want to write for?

mary rosenblum

I will say this over and over and over again...it is critical.

mary rosenblum

While you can 'broadcast' your queries or submissions...

mary rosenblum

after about the third or fourth totally inappropriate submission, that editor will stop looking at your work...you'll get an automatic rejection.

mary rosenblum

They figure you aren't even trying.

mary rosenblum

Now that does NOT mean...are you listening here????...that does NOT mean...

mary rosenblum

that if you get three rejections the editor will stop reading your work.

mary rosenblum

Hear that? Are you paying attention?

mary rosenblum

If the piece is APPROPRIATE to the mag, it is simply a 'no thanks'.

mary rosenblum

But if it is something that editor doesn't even publish, then you get on the black list after a few submissions.

mary rosenblum

I just try really hard to make people understand that rejections don't mean 'go away'.

mary rosenblum

It's only if you send, say, Sunset Magazine a query about an article on gardening in New England

mary rosenblum

That's what I mean by inappropriate.

mary rosenblum

You wouldn't believe how many straight romances or mainstream stories SF mags like Asimovs get.

mary rosenblum

But creative nonfiction is in a different category than straight informative nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

But still, a war story sent to Green Thumb magazine is a really poor choice of markets!

mary rosenblum

And the editor may remember you...and not in a good way either.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

And I wasn't yelling at you, Keith. :-)

mary rosenblum

I just wanted to make sure people understood the difference between a rejection for an inappropriate submission and an appropriate submission.

mary rosenblum

The real trick in creative NF...besides writing it well!...is to 'think laterally' about markets.

mary rosenblum

Don't JUST go for the nostalgia markets like Good Old Days.

mary rosenblum

If your piece is a funny and moving bit about Granny Rita and her obsession for a particular silver pattern...

mary rosenblum

try it with an antique magazine, a silver collector's magazine...

mary rosenblum

something like that.

lavinia

Is there a difference between personal essay

mary rosenblum

Between personal essay and creative nonfiction, lavinia?

mary rosenblum

Not really. It's semantics...like what is the difference between science fiction, fantasy, speculative fiction, and magic realism?

mary rosenblum

Some magazines say they accept personal essays, some say they accept creative nonfiction, some call it personal narrative...

mary rosenblum

in all cases, you are telling a story that is actually true.

mary rosenblum

You can be telling about your childhood escapade..

mary rosenblum

or your buddy Dave's misadventures as a youth (that's where a lot of stretching tends to take place!) or about your next door neighbor and her poodle.

dfitz

so a creative non-fiction fishing article might work for outdoor magazines, regional magazines, trade publications etc. Right?

mary rosenblum

Yep.

mary rosenblum

And you do it in a narrative form.

mary rosenblum

You don't write it like a limited third action adventure.

mary rosenblum

YOUR narrative voice is a big part of it. That makes it quite different from that limited third person POV mystery story you just sent off!

dfitz

I don't think I will ever get POV down.

mary rosenblum

Oh yes you will. :-) Just wait.

mary rosenblum

Some writers use first person.. Bailey White does.

mary rosenblum

Others use a narrative third and tell about a friend's mishaps...McManus does that...

mary rosenblum

although he usually gets himself into the escape briefly, then simply tells us how his buddy got into trouble.

mary rosenblum

The one thing you do not do is to 'put us into the character's head'.

mary rosenblum

This is told story form.

mary rosenblum

You are telling the reader a true story.

mary rosenblum

But the reason that I like the creative nonfic market is that it is so broad.

mary rosenblum

You are not limited to nostalgia markets, you can tell all kinds of stories...

mary rosenblum

and market them to topic magazines.

mary rosenblum

I've sent several students to Dog and Kennel magazine with dog stories...I think so far most of them have sold.

dfitz

If I'm telling the story from 1st person pov can I tell what's was in my head?

mary rosenblum

Yes, Dave, you can. You ARE the first person narrator, so you can tell us what you are thinking. But you can't...

mary rosenblum

tell it from the POV of, say, your neighbor and let us overhear his thoughts.

mary rosenblum

Not in personal narrative.

keith harjes

Have you found it easier to write than fiction?

mary rosenblum

You know, I just prefer fiction. :-) I'm not sure how to compare them in terms of 'hard' or 'easy'...

mary rosenblum

both require sound craft.

mary rosenblum

I 'like' fiction more than I like 'personal narrative'.

mary rosenblum

It is easier for many people who can tell stories in a narrative voice...

mary rosenblum

but have a hard time with the craft of nonfiction characterization.

lmel

I think you write what you like, whatever comes to you.

mary rosenblum

Well, you'll sure do better at what you like more easily. :-)

mary rosenblum

I did a running narrative about farm life, animals, and people on the old GEnie website, many years ago.

mary rosenblum

It was fun. :-) Had a good audience.

mary rosenblum

Now remember, good creative nonfiction takes skill...it's not just a matter of telling something you know.

mary rosenblum

You need to entertain your readers the same way you do with fiction and you use many of the same devices...

mary rosenblum

description, narrative voice, tight writing...

mary rosenblum

if you want BAD examples, go sample a bunch of random blogs. :-)

keith harjes

Where does blogging belong in the genre?...if it does at all

mary rosenblum

It's the self published personal narrative, Keith. :-)

sailor

Even though you're telling a story, you still want to show, not tell, right?

mary rosenblum

Yep, and you want dramatic peaks and valleys, you want tension and release...

mary rosenblum

a nice flow of language, vivid imagery...

mary rosenblum

everything you work on in fiction.

mary rosenblum

Boring is boring, whether it's real or not.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

Let's look at my search dog example...Sharon and Kunga her search dog.

mary rosenblum

Let's say I wanted to write a narrative piece for one of the big dog mags.

mary rosenblum

My readers are dog people. Do I go for humor or drama? Hmmm...

mary rosenblum

well searching for lost people is more dramatic than humorous, and many dog owners...

mary rosenblum

see that as a dramatic and sort of romanticized job. So we'll go for drama..

mary rosenblum

If I was writing about Wilbur the obsessive Bloodhound, I'd go for humor.

mary rosenblum

So how do I keep it from being boring?

mary rosenblum

Essentially, I'm going to tell about a search they went out on...

mary rosenblum

So I'd start with her unloading the dog and looking uneasily at the overcast sky. A kid got lost on a family outing (or whatever really happened..this isn't fiction!)...

mary rosenblum

Now maybe on the real search it's cold, a miserable day, but the kid has only been gone a few hours and after...

mary rosenblum

a long slog, Kunga finds him.

mary rosenblum

To make this entertaining, I'd start out with low tension, but the threat of the overcast sky. use vivid visuals to set the scene and build a picture...

mary rosenblum

of the terraine and Kunga and Sharon...increase the tension as the light begins to fade and the...

mary rosenblum

first few flakes drift down. Sharon's worried. Heavy snow will complicate things! And here I would peak my dramatic arc. Nothing REALLY dramatic happened...

mary rosenblum

Kunga found the kid and it didn't snow until later. And that's what I have to work with...

mary rosenblum

but I would make the reader FEEL that this could have been different...

mary rosenblum

and it might start snowing hard any second! So it still reads like a dramatic peak...

mary rosenblum

and I might add silence...we've lost the sound of Kunga's bell! Why? Did something happen to him?

mary rosenblum

Then the tension is released as he comes bounding back barking 'follow me'.

janecj333

couldn't the mc have flashbacks to a time when something tragic happened on another search, something in his personal life, and the heart of the story is not finding the lost kid but the author finding himself?

mary rosenblum

You can do that if you're writing about something that happened to YOU.

mary rosenblum

Here, Sharon might talk about that search where they failed to find the kid.

mary rosenblum

And that could add to the tension of that dramatic peak..but again...only if it really happened.

mary rosenblum

And I would interview her about a search and during the interview I would certainly ask her about bad experiences...

mary rosenblum

but I would also get her permission to mention it!

janecj333

or not even flashback,s just interweave his fears and dread with the present situation

mary rosenblum

Yes, as long as I say out of Sharon's head.

mary rosenblum

I could do this.

mary rosenblum

I know Sharon is worried. Two years ago on this same mountain, she and Kunga tried for three days to find the ten year old who had wandered off from his family outing.

mary rosenblum

A hunter found his body the next fall.

mary rosenblum

That adds to the dramatic tension building to that peak..

mary rosenblum

where Sharon can't hear Kunga's bell. Where is he? What happened? It's about to snow!

mary rosenblum

You use dramatic tools to create tension where in the actual event, it probably wasn't nearly that tense...must mostly cold!

geezer

Listening to this it seems that this type of writing should come naturally to ladies. It seems like the way we talk to each other.

mary rosenblum

-)

lapart

how do you know when research comes in when writing?

mary rosenblum

Well, lapart, it comes in when you need it.

mary rosenblum

If you have to know facts before you write something, then you do the research.

mary rosenblum

If you can write something...say a story...and research details later, then you research after you write a draft.

mary rosenblum

If you want to write about something you don't know much about...research first.

mary rosenblum

And if you notice, in my example, I took a pretty ordinary search..which does have some drama inherently...and made it seem much more dramatic...

mary rosenblum

without altering what happened. And I did that by using the same writing tools I'd use in a fiction story.

mary rosenblum

I manipulated pacing, atmosphere, and visuals to create drama.

mary rosenblum

There are many ways to tell a truth...some are way more fun than others!

mary rosenblum

What I am trying to get at...is that you can make a strong creative nonfiction narrative out of just about anything. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'ts HOW you do it more than what you write about. Although starting with something interesting helps.

mary rosenblum

Just remember that if you portray your neighbor as an absolute boob...and everybody loves the piece and it sells widely...you still have to live next to your neighbor. :-)

mary rosenblum

One well known narrative writer did admit once that some members of her family were not speaking to her. :-)

lapart

oh no

mary rosenblum

It's something to keep in mind.

mary rosenblum

The problem is that 'composites'...a character who combines the traits of several real people...

mary rosenblum

is considered fiction. Period.

mary rosenblum

So you really do have to use real people in your narratives.

tai chi

if it's true they can't sue....correct?

mary rosenblum

As long as it's not libelous, tai chi.

tai chi

what if their actions were less than honorable?

mary rosenblum

Well, if you don't libel them, there's no legal issue... but things can get ugly..

mary rosenblum

if you portray people as nasty in public.

dfitz

As I understand it they can sue, they just can't win.

mary rosenblum

Ah, they don't have to win. Do you have any idea what it costs to hire a lawyer?

geezer

But think of your inheritance!

mary rosenblum

LOL, there you go...cut right out of the will!

sailor

If you're writing a creative nonfiction piece about Christmas, is it permissible to combine events from two different Christmases into one holiday?

mary rosenblum

That's the blurry line, sailor...

mary rosenblum

You really can change the appearance of things by the way in which you present them...

mary rosenblum

look at my example...

mary rosenblum

I made it seem much more dramatic than it was.

mary rosenblum

If you specifically put events from different time frames into the same one, I think you're crossing that 'nonfiction' line a bit.

mary rosenblum

I didn't change events, I just made them feel more dramatic.

janecj333

justice costs the victim, first in tragedy, then in

mary rosenblum

Ah, justice costs EVERYBODY in money!

mary rosenblum

sady, thanks for proposing this topic. :-) I should come back to it more often..

mary rosenblum

because it's a good market for novice writers... and...for all you fiction people...

mary rosenblum

a reputation in creative nonfiction carries over into the fiction world.

mary rosenblum

Fiction editors pay attention to the good creative NF writers.

mary rosenblum

So your clips count on both sides of the F/NF fence.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour.

mary rosenblum

Do join us on Sunday for our casual chat...right here, same time.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript of the Forum in the usual place:

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend, all!

 

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