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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Friday After
Hours Forum.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've all had a great
week.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about
Creative Nonfiction tonight.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a growing market, has
serious career potential, and combines the 'storycraft' of fiction...
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mary rosenblum
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with the reality of
nonfiction.
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mary rosenblum
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Most nonfiction markets...not
all, but most...accept it where they will not accept fiction.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life
stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you
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mary rosenblum
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Right off the bat, I will
recommend an excellent 'how to' book on the subject.
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mary rosenblum
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'Creative Nonfiction,
Researching and Crafting Stories of Real Life' by Philip Gerard
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mary rosenblum
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It is published by Story Press
and available on amazon.com
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mary rosenblum
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amazon
link
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lmel
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Yes, I recommend it too!
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mary rosenblum
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It's very well written, very
informative, and includes sections on legal issues, researching, how to
find subjects, and the like.
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dfitz
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Would you define creative
non-fiction vs non-fiction?
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mary rosenblum
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Creative nonfiction is
essentially telling a true story rather than conveying information.
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mary rosenblum
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If I write a piece about
training search dogs, that is an informational nonfiction piece.
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mary rosenblum
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If I write a piece about
Sharon and her search-obsessive dog Kanga...
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mary rosenblum
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and I tell about one of their
searches, giving it a dramatic arc, using characterization, description,
all those devices to make it a 'good read'...
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mary rosenblum
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this is creative nonfiction.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm not telling the reader how
to do anything, or conveying educational information...
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mary rosenblum
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I'm letting them share one of
Sharon and Kunga's searches and turning the pair into real characters.
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mary rosenblum
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Creative nonfiction is
primarily entertaining, although it can certainly teach readers things.
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mary rosenblum
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But it combines the
entertainment of a story with the value of 'truth'.
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mary rosenblum
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Although you can stretch the
truth a little...
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mary rosenblum
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just don't do as Frey did and
make it up out of whole cloth! That is fiction.
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sailor
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Profile articles don't usually
have a dramatic arc, do they?
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mary rosenblum
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The good ones do tend to have
a certain amount of creative drama, sailor.
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mary rosenblum
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Often, the profiler will add
anecdotes from the person's life that add brief dramatic arcs and a bit of
dramatic interest.
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sady
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What about an historical
article? Can that be done as creative nonfiction?
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mary rosenblum
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Good question, Sady.
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mary rosenblum
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There, you're probably going
to fall over the line into 'historical fiction' if you make it too
dramatic.
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mary rosenblum
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As long as you stick to known
facts, you can present them with dramatic flair.
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mary rosenblum
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But as soon as you start
putting words into George WAshington's mouth and telling us what he's
thinking...
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mary rosenblum
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that is historical fiction.
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lmel
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Do you find literary journals
good markets for cr. non-fic?
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mary rosenblum
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Only if they're written in
literary style, lmel.
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mary rosenblum
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Virtually anything can work
for a lit mag...if it is literary in form.
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sallyk
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Are there any publications or
web sites you can suggest?
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sallyk
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To get a feel for what's being
published?
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mary rosenblum
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Do the market lists, sally.
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mary rosenblum
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Much creative NF ends up in
topic magazines...I don't know that magazines JUST for creative NF exist.
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mary rosenblum
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But say you write a piece
about Mildred your wacky neighbor who obsesses about her garden...
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mary rosenblum
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you might sell it to one of
several gardening mags.
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mary rosenblum
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Bailey White...who publishes
collections of her creative NF pieces...started in garden mags.
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lmel
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The journal Creative Nonfiction
is just such a beast.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, so there are...
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mary rosenblum
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There's a magazine for
EVERYTHING.
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mary rosenblum
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But again, most NF mags will
accept it, so pick topic magazines whose readers might also like your
piece.
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mary rosenblum
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Patrick McManus has sold a lot
of his humorous hunting pieces to outdoor and hunting mags.
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mary rosenblum
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If I wrote up the search
piece, I'd try it with Dog Fancy or one of the other big circulation dog
mags.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life
stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer
any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click
on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you
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lmel
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How would you qualify literary
style--essays like E.B. White
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mary rosenblum
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I don't think you can clearly
draw defining lines around any particular genre of writing, lmel...
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mary rosenblum
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White did literary
essays...but in terms of literary fiction or literary creative fiction...
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mary rosenblum
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I think there, the main
difference is that style and language matter more than anything else.
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mary rosenblum
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I think of it as the 'poetry'
of the prose world, myself. But don't quote me on that...
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mary rosenblum
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because it's a very vague
definition.
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mary rosenblum
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I talked it over with a
creative writing PhD student at the last conference I was at...
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mary rosenblum
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and that 'words and language
matter' definition was about the best we could come up with. :-)
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lmel
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I like that, and I think it's
true of the masters!
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it does fit.
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dfitz
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would you consider Mark Twain's
Jumping Frog of Calavarous county to be creative non-fiction?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure, although I bet you money
Samuel made that one up out of whole cloth, LOL.
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mary rosenblum
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But if it was based on real
people, then yeah, it would be.
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mary rosenblum
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Bailey White's stories,
Patrick McManus's stories...
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mary rosenblum
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Alice Walker...
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mary rosenblum
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they all do creative
nonfiction.
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lapart
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Mary, is the timing of your
article relevant to the editor?
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mary rosenblum
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It certainly can be lapart.
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mary rosenblum
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right now, with the Olympics
starting up, if you wrote the story of the guy who started out as a
mechanic and made...
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mary rosenblum
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it into the Olympics...it
would certainly catch an editor's eye.
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mary rosenblum
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A student of mine has been
happily selling his narratives about life in the bush in Canada. He's
seventy...
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mary rosenblum
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and those stories from his
childhood and his tales from WWII are getting snapped up by editors of
nostalgia mags.
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mary rosenblum
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Another of my students sold
quite a few humorous stories about her father's various...
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mary rosenblum
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'careers' during the
Depression.
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keith harjes
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how much times passes between
editor reading article till it
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keith harjes
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is printed
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mary rosenblum
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hi, Keith. :-) That depends...
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mary rosenblum
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usually it will be six months
to a couple of years.
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mary rosenblum
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But if the piece is timely, an
editor may yank something and substitute the timely piece.
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sady
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I read that nostalgia is a big
seller.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a reliable seller, sady.
I nudge many of my older students in that direction...
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mary rosenblum
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and they find that their
childhood is actually a gold mine. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life
stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer
any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click
on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you
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mary rosenblum
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BUt...it's not just a matter
of what you have personally experienced.
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mary rosenblum
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You can write about someone
else's experiences.
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keith harjes
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What mags would you suggest for
"Grandmother" stories?
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mary rosenblum
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Good Old Days is one, Grit
takes 'em...
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mary rosenblum
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Think in terms of sub topics,
too.
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mary rosenblum
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Did your Grandmother relocate
here from Ireland or Germany?
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mary rosenblum
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Ethnic mags are a possibility.
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mary rosenblum
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If it's a farm story, a
magazine like Countryside might take it.
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keith harjes
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She is Italian
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mary rosenblum
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I bet you can find magazines
published for Italian Americans. :-)
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lavinia
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Mary, what are some examples of
nostalgia magazines?
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mary rosenblum
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The two I mentions...many of
the military mags look for nostalgia pieces...
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mary rosenblum
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Think about what topic your
nostalgia piece overlaps...ethnic group, war, farming, San Francisco, West,
South, NOrth, East...
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mary rosenblum
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then look for topic mags,
regionals, and see if they accept personal narratives .
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lmel
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There is an Italian-American
mag, try them!
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mary rosenblum
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I figured there was. :-)
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sailor
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Garrison Keilor tells lots of
stories about Minnesota. To me, their entertaining when he tells them, but
not when I read them. It's the same with David Sedaris. I can't figure out
why. Their books sell, so obviously others do not agree with me.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I agree with you,
actually. :-) Both those men are performance artists and their strength is
in their personal presentation.
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mary rosenblum
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I own Sedaris's books, because
I really enjoy his performances, but I bought them because I enjoy him. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I don't find them nearly as
entertaining. Performance art does not translate well to print.
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mary rosenblum
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But I have never heard Patrick
McManus's voice and his prose can make me laugh so hard I have had to
sit...
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mary rosenblum
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down on the floor or fall
down.
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robastor
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Renaissance is another that
takes nostalgia stories and articles.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, there are many!
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sailor
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What would it take to make their
writing more entertaining?
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mary rosenblum
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I think they would have to
learn to do with words on the page what they do with timing and tone of
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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I have actually spent a fair
amount of time figuring this out...
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mary rosenblum
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it's how you make dialogue
sound real. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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When you only use words on the
page, you learn how to create the timing and tone of voice that you use in
a live presentation...
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mary rosenblum
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through your words.
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mary rosenblum
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But both these men mostly work
in live presentation and I just don't think they're as skilled with words
on the page.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a craft issue, I believe.
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mary rosenblum
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And I can't do a live
presentation that is as good as what I can write. So it works both ways.
:-)
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dfitz
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Would a creative non-fiction
piece qualify as an article as required for lesson 3?
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mary rosenblum
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I have always thought so. :-)
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lapart
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how do most novice writers learn
the market ?
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mary rosenblum
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The way everybody
does...reading the market lists, lapart.
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mary rosenblum
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Then you start finetuning that
learning as you get feedback from queries or submissions.
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mary rosenblum
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You find out which editors
want what.
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mary rosenblum
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If you discover creative NF
writers you like, watch for their names in magazine indexes.
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mary rosenblum
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If that writer shows up in
this mag, they are open to creative NF.
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keith harjes
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How important is reading a mag
you want to write for?
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mary rosenblum
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I will say this over and over
and over again...it is critical.
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mary rosenblum
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While you can 'broadcast' your
queries or submissions...
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mary rosenblum
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after about the third or
fourth totally inappropriate submission, that editor will stop looking at
your work...you'll get an automatic rejection.
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mary rosenblum
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They figure you aren't even
trying.
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mary rosenblum
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Now that does NOT mean...are
you listening here????...that does NOT mean...
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mary rosenblum
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that if you get three
rejections the editor will stop reading your work.
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mary rosenblum
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Hear that? Are you paying
attention?
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mary rosenblum
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If the piece is APPROPRIATE to
the mag, it is simply a 'no thanks'.
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mary rosenblum
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But if it is something that
editor doesn't even publish, then you get on the black list after a few
submissions.
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mary rosenblum
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I just try really hard to make
people understand that rejections don't mean 'go away'.
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mary rosenblum
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It's only if you send, say,
Sunset Magazine a query about an article on gardening in New England
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mary rosenblum
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That's what I mean by
inappropriate.
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mary rosenblum
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You wouldn't believe how many
straight romances or mainstream stories SF mags like Asimovs get.
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mary rosenblum
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But creative nonfiction is in
a different category than straight informative nonfiction.
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mary rosenblum
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But still, a war story sent to
Green Thumb magazine is a really poor choice of markets!
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mary rosenblum
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And the editor may remember
you...and not in a good way either.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life
stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you
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mary rosenblum
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And I wasn't yelling at you,
Keith. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I just wanted to make sure
people understood the difference between a rejection for an inappropriate
submission and an appropriate submission.
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mary rosenblum
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The real trick in creative
NF...besides writing it well!...is to 'think laterally' about markets.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't JUST go for the
nostalgia markets like Good Old Days.
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mary rosenblum
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If your piece is a funny and
moving bit about Granny Rita and her obsession for a particular silver
pattern...
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mary rosenblum
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try it with an antique
magazine, a silver collector's magazine...
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mary rosenblum
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something like that.
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lavinia
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Is there a difference between
personal essay
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mary rosenblum
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Between personal essay and
creative nonfiction, lavinia?
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mary rosenblum
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Not really. It's
semantics...like what is the difference between science fiction, fantasy,
speculative fiction, and magic realism?
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mary rosenblum
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Some magazines say they accept
personal essays, some say they accept creative nonfiction, some call it
personal narrative...
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mary rosenblum
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in all cases, you are telling
a story that is actually true.
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mary rosenblum
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You can be telling about your
childhood escapade..
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mary rosenblum
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or your buddy Dave's
misadventures as a youth (that's where a lot of stretching tends to take
place!) or about your next door neighbor and her poodle.
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dfitz
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so a creative non-fiction
fishing article might work for outdoor magazines, regional magazines, trade
publications etc. Right?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep.
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mary rosenblum
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And you do it in a narrative
form.
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mary rosenblum
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You don't write it like a
limited third action adventure.
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mary rosenblum
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YOUR narrative voice is a big
part of it. That makes it quite different from that limited third person
POV mystery story you just sent off!
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dfitz
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I don't think I will ever get
POV down.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh yes you will. :-) Just
wait.
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mary rosenblum
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Some writers use first
person.. Bailey White does.
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mary rosenblum
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Others use a narrative third
and tell about a friend's mishaps...McManus does that...
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mary rosenblum
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although he usually gets
himself into the escape briefly, then simply tells us how his buddy got
into trouble.
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mary rosenblum
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The one thing you do not do is
to 'put us into the character's head'.
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mary rosenblum
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This is told story form.
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mary rosenblum
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You are telling the reader a
true story.
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mary rosenblum
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But the reason that I like the
creative nonfic market is that it is so broad.
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mary rosenblum
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You are not limited to
nostalgia markets, you can tell all kinds of stories...
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mary rosenblum
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and market them to topic
magazines.
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mary rosenblum
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I've sent several students to
Dog and Kennel magazine with dog stories...I think so far most of them have
sold.
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dfitz
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If I'm telling the story from
1st person pov can I tell what's was in my head?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, Dave, you can. You ARE
the first person narrator, so you can tell us what you are thinking. But
you can't...
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mary rosenblum
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tell it from the POV of, say,
your neighbor and let us overhear his thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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Not in personal narrative.
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keith harjes
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Have you found it easier to
write than fiction?
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mary rosenblum
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You know, I just prefer
fiction. :-) I'm not sure how to compare them in terms of 'hard' or
'easy'...
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mary rosenblum
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both require sound craft.
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mary rosenblum
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I 'like' fiction more than I
like 'personal narrative'.
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mary rosenblum
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It is easier for many people
who can tell stories in a narrative voice...
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mary rosenblum
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but have a hard time with the
craft of nonfiction characterization.
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lmel
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I think you write what you like,
whatever comes to you.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you'll sure do better at
what you like more easily. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I did a running narrative
about farm life, animals, and people on the old GEnie website, many years
ago.
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mary rosenblum
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It was fun. :-) Had a good
audience.
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mary rosenblum
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Now remember, good creative
nonfiction takes skill...it's not just a matter of telling something you
know.
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mary rosenblum
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You need to entertain your
readers the same way you do with fiction and you use many of the same
devices...
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mary rosenblum
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description, narrative voice,
tight writing...
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mary rosenblum
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if you want BAD examples, go
sample a bunch of random blogs. :-)
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keith harjes
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Where does blogging belong in
the genre?...if it does at all
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mary rosenblum
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It's the self published
personal narrative, Keith. :-)
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sailor
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Even though you're telling a
story, you still want to show, not tell, right?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep, and you want dramatic
peaks and valleys, you want tension and release...
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mary rosenblum
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a nice flow of language, vivid
imagery...
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mary rosenblum
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everything you work on in
fiction.
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mary rosenblum
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Boring is boring, whether it's
real or not.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about real life
stories…Creative Nonfiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer
any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click
on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Let's look at my search dog
example...Sharon and Kunga her search dog.
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mary rosenblum
|
Let's say I wanted to write a
narrative piece for one of the big dog mags.
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mary rosenblum
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My readers are dog people. Do
I go for humor or drama? Hmmm...
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mary rosenblum
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well searching for lost people
is more dramatic than humorous, and many dog owners...
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mary rosenblum
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see that as a dramatic and
sort of romanticized job. So we'll go for drama..
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mary rosenblum
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If I was writing about Wilbur
the obsessive Bloodhound, I'd go for humor.
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mary rosenblum
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So how do I keep it from being
boring?
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, I'm going to tell
about a search they went out on...
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mary rosenblum
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So I'd start with her
unloading the dog and looking uneasily at the overcast sky. A kid got lost
on a family outing (or whatever really happened..this isn't fiction!)...
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mary rosenblum
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Now maybe on the real search
it's cold, a miserable day, but the kid has only been gone a few hours and
after...
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mary rosenblum
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a long slog, Kunga finds him.
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mary rosenblum
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To make this entertaining, I'd
start out with low tension, but the threat of the overcast sky. use vivid
visuals to set the scene and build a picture...
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mary rosenblum
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of the terraine and Kunga and
Sharon...increase the tension as the light begins to fade and the...
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mary rosenblum
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first few flakes drift down.
Sharon's worried. Heavy snow will complicate things! And here I would peak
my dramatic arc. Nothing REALLY dramatic happened...
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mary rosenblum
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Kunga found the kid and it
didn't snow until later. And that's what I have to work with...
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mary rosenblum
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but I would make the reader
FEEL that this could have been different...
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mary rosenblum
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and it might start snowing
hard any second! So it still reads like a dramatic peak...
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mary rosenblum
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and I might add
silence...we've lost the sound of Kunga's bell! Why? Did something happen
to him?
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mary rosenblum
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Then the tension is released
as he comes bounding back barking 'follow me'.
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janecj333
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couldn't the mc have flashbacks
to a time when something tragic happened on another search, something in
his personal life, and the heart of the story is not finding the lost kid
but the author finding himself?
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mary rosenblum
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You can do that if you're
writing about something that happened to YOU.
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mary rosenblum
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Here, Sharon might talk about
that search where they failed to find the kid.
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mary rosenblum
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And that could add to the
tension of that dramatic peak..but again...only if it really happened.
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mary rosenblum
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And I would interview her
about a search and during the interview I would certainly ask her about bad
experiences...
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mary rosenblum
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but I would also get her
permission to mention it!
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janecj333
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or not even flashback,s just
interweave his fears and dread with the present situation
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, as long as I say out of
Sharon's head.
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mary rosenblum
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I could do this.
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mary rosenblum
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I know Sharon is worried. Two
years ago on this same mountain, she and Kunga tried for three days to find
the ten year old who had wandered off from his family outing.
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mary rosenblum
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A hunter found his body the
next fall.
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mary rosenblum
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That adds to the dramatic
tension building to that peak..
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mary rosenblum
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where Sharon can't hear
Kunga's bell. Where is he? What happened? It's about to snow!
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mary rosenblum
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You use dramatic tools to
create tension where in the actual event, it probably wasn't nearly that
tense...must mostly cold!
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geezer
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Listening to this it seems that
this type of writing should come naturally to ladies. It seems like the way
we talk to each other.
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mary rosenblum
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-)
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lapart
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how do you know when research
comes in when writing?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, lapart, it comes in when
you need it.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have to know facts
before you write something, then you do the research.
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mary rosenblum
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If you can write
something...say a story...and research details later, then you research
after you write a draft.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want to write about
something you don't know much about...research first.
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mary rosenblum
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And if you notice, in my
example, I took a pretty ordinary search..which does have some drama
inherently...and made it seem much more dramatic...
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mary rosenblum
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without altering what
happened. And I did that by using the same writing tools I'd use in a
fiction story.
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mary rosenblum
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I manipulated pacing,
atmosphere, and visuals to create drama.
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mary rosenblum
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There are many ways to tell a
truth...some are way more fun than others!
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mary rosenblum
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What I am trying to get
at...is that you can make a strong creative nonfiction narrative out of
just about anything. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I'ts HOW you do it more than
what you write about. Although starting with something interesting helps.
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mary rosenblum
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Just remember that if you
portray your neighbor as an absolute boob...and everybody loves the piece
and it sells widely...you still have to live next to your neighbor. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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One well known narrative
writer did admit once that some members of her family were not speaking to
her. :-)
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lapart
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oh no
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mary rosenblum
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It's something to keep in
mind.
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mary rosenblum
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The problem is that
'composites'...a character who combines the traits of several real
people...
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mary rosenblum
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is considered fiction. Period.
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mary rosenblum
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So you really do have to use
real people in your narratives.
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tai chi
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if it's true they can't
sue....correct?
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mary rosenblum
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As long as it's not libelous,
tai chi.
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tai chi
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what if their actions were less
than honorable?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, if you don't libel them,
there's no legal issue... but things can get ugly..
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mary rosenblum
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if you portray people as nasty
in public.
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dfitz
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As I understand it they can sue,
they just can't win.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, they don't have to win. Do
you have any idea what it costs to hire a lawyer?
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geezer
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But think of your inheritance!
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mary rosenblum
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LOL, there you go...cut right
out of the will!
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sailor
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If you're writing a creative
nonfiction piece about Christmas, is it permissible to combine events from
two different Christmases into one holiday?
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mary rosenblum
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That's the blurry line, sailor...
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mary rosenblum
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You really can change the
appearance of things by the way in which you present them...
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mary rosenblum
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look at my example...
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mary rosenblum
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I made it seem much more
dramatic than it was.
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mary rosenblum
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If you specifically put events
from different time frames into the same one, I think you're crossing that
'nonfiction' line a bit.
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mary rosenblum
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I didn't change events, I just
made them feel more dramatic.
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janecj333
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justice costs the victim, first
in tragedy, then in
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, justice costs EVERYBODY in
money!
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mary rosenblum
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sady, thanks for proposing
this topic. :-) I should come back to it more often..
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mary rosenblum
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because it's a good market for
novice writers... and...for all you fiction people...
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mary rosenblum
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a reputation in creative
nonfiction carries over into the fiction world.
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mary rosenblum
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Fiction editors pay attention
to the good creative NF writers.
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mary rosenblum
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So your clips count on both
sides of the F/NF fence.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour.
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us on Sunday for our
casual chat...right here, same time.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript of
the Forum in the usual place:
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend, all!
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