Forum Transcripts

Dialogue and Action Tags: 6/20/06

Event start time:

Tue Jun 20 12:05:50 2006

Event end time:

Tue Jun 20 13:31:03 2006



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Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Tuesday Forum. I hope you all had a fine weekend. Enjoying summer?

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about action tags and tone of voice in dialogue. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I thought I'd talk about action tags and dialogue today, because nearly everybody has trouble with dialogue when they first start writing.

mary rosenblum

And using what I call 'action tags' can make a huge difference.

mary rosenblum

Dialogue is more tricky than it might seem, but as you begin to understand what you're trying to achieve...

mary rosenblum

you'll find that the very same exchange that seemed 'flat' now reads like a real conversation.

mary rosenblum

It's not usually what the characters say that is the problem, but rather how you put the dialogue together.

mary rosenblum

And you will end up with a conversation where the reader even hears the correct tone of voice without any added 'he said angrily', 'she said sadly'.

mary rosenblum

Although sometimes you'll still use those adverbial tags just because it works in terms of rhythm and flow.

mary rosenblum

Remember...nothing is either always or never in writing!

mary rosenblum

The issue with things like 'said' 'was' and the like, is that you do them intentionally...

mary rosenblum

when they are needed, rather than through habit, when they are the wrong choice.

mary rosenblum

Action tags are very useful things.

mary rosenblum

I bet every one of you had a teacher somewhere who handed out a list of 'alternative' words to said.

mary rosenblum

You know..'announced', 'replied', 'responded', etc.

mary rosenblum

If you still have it PLEASE throw it away!

mary rosenblum

Said is an invisible word.

mary rosenblum

It simply links the spoken line of dialog to the speaker so that we know who is talking and hear the right voice.

mary rosenblum

The problem is that when you use it constantly, it begins to sound like a bell tolling... dong dong dong dong...

mary rosenblum

and the reader notices it.

mary rosenblum

But ALL the other 'said words' are very noticeable and they draw attention to themselves.

mary rosenblum

"I think I'll probably audition after all," Becky said, reads very differently from

mary rosenblum

"I think I"ll probably audition after all," Becky announced.

mary rosenblum

Now if she IS making an announcement, that's fine.

mary rosenblum

But if it's a case of 'any word but said', it's not the best choice. Readers notice that non-said word.

mary rosenblum

However, you can skip both very easily.

mary rosenblum

"I think I'll probably audition after all." Becky shrugged. "Why not? I paid my entry fee already."

mary rosenblum

Nobody will be confused about who is speaking here. Becky is.

mary rosenblum

We have no 'said' , 'announced' or any other said word.

mary rosenblum

None is needed.

mary rosenblum

We also have a sense of Becky's state of mind. Her shrug makes this feel a bit off-hand, a sort of 'oh well' tone.

mary rosenblum

So that's the tone we'll hear.

mary rosenblum

Let's change her tone of voice.

mary rosenblum

"I think I'll audition after all." Beckly clenched her fists and glared at Peter. "I paid my entry fee after all."

mary rosenblum

Oops...shouldn't have that second 'after all' in there... But you get the gist.

mary rosenblum

She's not making a casual off hand comment now, the tone is not 'oh well'...

mary rosenblum

And readers will hear a different tone.

mary rosenblum

That allows you to skip the 'Becky said casually' or 'Becky said angrily'

mary rosenblum

Both of those tell the reader what to hear.

mary rosenblum

By showing Becky's body language as she speaks, the readers can figure out for themselves what the tone of voice is and they'll hear it.

mary rosenblum

Remember...if you allow your readers to figure things out for themselves, it's going to seem more real. Nobody tells us what is going on in real life...

mary rosenblum

except for those people who do hear voices. :-)

mary rosenblum

The rest of us are on our own....no voice-over whispering Becky is angry.

mary rosenblum

We know our friends' emotional states because we hear their tone of voice and it's coupled with body language...

mary rosenblum

that says 'happy', 'sad', 'worried', 'angry'.

mary rosenblum

Since we can't actually use tone of voice on the printed page, as you can in a play or movie, we use the body language...

mary rosenblum

and readers will take that cue and hear the correct tone.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about action tags and tone of voice in dialogue. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

andi

Zeus was happy with this family but the Hollis's were his real family. is the plural for Hollis's right?

mary rosenblum

No, that's the possesive form, andi.

mary rosenblum

No apostrophe for plural.

mary rosenblum

Zeus was happy with this family, but the Hollis family was his real family, after all.

whip

How do you punctuate a quote within a quote?

mary rosenblum

I was looking that up in Strunk and White, whip. I can't find a reference, but I avoid doing that because it confuses the reader bigtime.

mary rosenblum

You can have your speaker repeat the quote so that you don't need quotation marks at all.

mary rosenblum

"I can't stand the girl," Marliss said. "You know what she told me? Drop dead! I mean, come on, what kind of manners was she born with?"

mary rosenblum

Marliss is repeating the girl's words; Drop dead, but no quotes are needed within the sentence, since MARLISS is saying them.

mary rosenblum

You should be able to make it clear to the reader what is being repeated.

gail

People often emphasize certain words to project doubt, sarcasm, or foolishness. Is it appropriate to use italics for this? And, how often can this be used without the dialogue sounding stilted or cartoonish?

mary rosenblum

I do that, too, but beware of doing it too often. I often have italic wars with Gardner Dozois, a frequent editor of my short fiction...

mary rosenblum

because he LOVES to italicize emphasized words. And it does sound cartoonish at times, (so I deleat all the italic he adds, and then he usually sticks half of it back in! At least I got half of it out!).

mary rosenblum

Generally, if you are 'showing' us the scene clearly, you won't need to indicate the emphasized...

mary rosenblum

words because they should be obvious.

aelle

Don't you used italics for thoughts of your characters?

mary rosenblum

No. I don't. And I DO fight with some editors over that. If they're going to italicize direct thought, I simply won't use direct thought except very occasionally.

mary rosenblum

Italic always 'sounds different' to a reader and stands out like a shout.

mary rosenblum

That's one reason I advise against using direct thought and paraphrasing it instead. It saves you from house rules about italicizing direct thought.

cosmos

It's my understanding that you show a quote in a quote by using the apostrophe on each side of the inner quote.

mary rosenblum

That's what I remember, cosmos, and that's what I do on the rare occasions I have to use it, but I am not sure if that ...

mary rosenblum

is correct or if I have just been getting away with it because a sloppy copy editor missed it.

whip

Please comment on , Marliss said vs. ,said Marliss

mary rosenblum

Always put the 'said' after the identifier if you can. AND, put the tag line (if you're using a 'said tag') after the spoken line if possible.

mary rosenblum

The reason is this:

mary rosenblum

You are trying to create an onging action scene in your reader's head so that the reader...

mary rosenblum

begins to live the scene with your character. That's why you don't want to remind the reader that they are reading a book. :-)

mary rosenblum

When we read a line of dialogue and the first word after that line is 'Marliss', then we think 'Marliss said this' and essentially skip over the 'said'.

mary rosenblum

When the 'said' comes first, we still don't know who said the line, we have to read the said and then the Marliss.

mary rosenblum

So we can't skip that said.

mary rosenblum

So the said is much more visible and intrusive.

mary rosenblum

When the tag comes first: Marliss said, "I have to go to school now'....it is VERY intrusive.

mary rosenblum

We have to pay attention to 'Marliss said' before we hear the line. We can't ignore it. So it really stands out.

mary rosenblum

"I have to go to school," Marliss said. Most readers will skip over that 'said'.

gail

If a character is about to launch into extended dialogue, would you recommend inserting the expository tag before the dialogue, to establish the correct "voice" from the onset?

mary rosenblum

Ooops..I sort of just answered this.

mary rosenblum

BUT...just use an action tag, gail.

mary rosenblum

That isn't the problem the expository tag is.

mary rosenblum

Roger crossed his arms and drew himself up. "I have no intention of doing anything of the sort."

mary rosenblum

We know Roger is speaking and we know what his tone has to be.

cosmos

In ESSENTIALS OF ENGLISH, it says on page 135 that "single quotation marks are used to indicate a quotation within a quotation. The example given was "I've just read Shelley's 'Ode to the West Wind,' " she said. I am surprised when I see this because I thought the single quotation mark would go before the comma. So this is news to me.

mary rosenblum

Thanks, Cosmos. Nice to know I've been keeping the copy editors happy on this one. And the comma placement surprises me, too.

mary rosenblum

But then comma placements often surprise me. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about action tags and tone of voice in dialogue. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

beryl

I've found another good reason to deleat 'she said.' When I use descriptive words, "Julie's back stiffened and her eyes blazed," that seems to be when my character starts telling me how the story goes.

mary rosenblum

And you are revealing characterization with this type of action tag, beryl.

mary rosenblum

This is one of the primary uses of action tags.

mary rosenblum

Not only does it reveal the tone of voice, it offers insights into the character's feelings about what is going on...

mary rosenblum

without requiring you to either tell us what the character is feeling or have that character think about his/her reaction.

libertybell

and breaks up the "talking heads" syndrome

mary rosenblum

And that is another major use of the action tag.

mary rosenblum

One of the things we're trying to accomplish in dialogue scenes is to create the effect in real life...

mary rosenblum

of seeing at the same time we're hearing .

mary rosenblum

When we listen to someone speak, we see the background and we see that person.

mary rosenblum

And all too often in novice stories, we get long scenes of dialogue with no visual input...

mary rosenblum

and the effect is that we have closed our eyes.

mary rosenblum

The action tags allow you to add beats of visuals, so that you create that effect of seeing the scene at the same time you hear the conversation.

mary rosenblum

"I think I'll go visit Mattie this weekend."

mary rosenblum

"Why?" Brent leaned against the edge of the counter. "Hasn't she made you miserable enough?"

mary rosenblum

"That wasn't her fault." Karen busied herself with pancake mix and spoons, carefully not looking at him. "Besides, she said she was sorry. Why can't you forgive and forget?"

mary rosenblum

"Why do you have to?"

mary rosenblum

We're going to get a sense of Karen and Brent's emotional states here, as well as see a couple of kitchen...

mary rosenblum

details that allow us to fill in a scene visually.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about action tags and tone of voice in dialogue. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

janecj333

the comma placement could be a typo :)

mary rosenblum

It could be, Jane. Seems wrong to me. But then, commas often seem illogical to me!

mary rosenblum

Actually, anyone who is writing seriously should own a copy of Strunk and White's 'Elements of Style' or 'Essentials of English' published by Barrons.

whip

Is using an adverb once in a while OK? Sort of like a beat?

mary rosenblum

Sure, whip.

mary rosenblum

As I said before, 'always' and 'never' rarely ever apply to writing.

mary rosenblum

It's fine to use the 'to be' verbs when they are the best choice, it's fine to use 'said' when it's the best choice...

mary rosenblum

it's fine to use an adverb.... 'she said quickly' ...when that is the best choice.

mary rosenblum

What happens is that novice writers often use them all the time out of habit when other words ARE better choices.

libertybell

examples of "to be" when acceptable? When not acceptable?

mary rosenblum

It's a matter of conveying what you need to convey in the most efficient and powerful manner, liberty.

mary rosenblum

Perhaps I am writing a scene with strong, rising action. I might reach the climax where a character who the POV has thought was a male soldier all along, is revealed to be a girl in disguise.

mary rosenblum

I might use the sentence

mary rosenblum

He was a girl.

mary rosenblum

That might be the dramatic peak of the scene, as our POV opens a door unexpectedly to find this 'man' without a shirt.

mary rosenblum

And I want a stark, spare sentence that is going to pack a punch.

mary rosenblum

I could avoid that was but it would require a longer sentence that would reduce the impact.

mary rosenblum

So 'was' is the best choice.

mary rosenblum

But most of the time it is not.

mary rosenblum

The old house was at the end of the street. The old house sagged at the end of the street.

janecj333

My Chicago Manual of Style offers... As Franklin advised, "Plough deep while sluggards sleep." (period inside quotes).

mary rosenblum

But that's for the end of a sentence, Jane.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes, the punctuation goes inside, sometimes it goes outside.

mary rosenblum

If you're in doubt, look up examples in a style handbook.

libertybell

So past tense "to be" is the real issue?

mary rosenblum

No. I just used that, but the problem with 'to be' verbs is that they are empty words.

mary rosenblum

Strong prose is using the fewest possible words to create the richest scene in your readers heads.

mary rosenblum

Every 'empty' word that does not convey a visual image weakens your prose.

mary rosenblum

Some you are stuck with -- a, an, the, and the like.

mary rosenblum

But many you can avoid.

mary rosenblum

Replace those empty verbs with an active verb that conveys more information to the reader.

mary rosenblum

If you can make every sentence do two or three things, you have powerful prose.

mary rosenblum

The more words you have to use to accomplish what you wish to accomplish, the weaker your prose is, as a rule of thumb.

mary rosenblum

Powerful prose is a balance, always, between too much and too little, but you want to...

mary rosenblum

get rid of the 'too much' that doesn't contribute to the piece and keep what DOES contribute.

libertybell

is that called "tight" writing?

mary rosenblum

Yep. :-) And it is a subtle reality that makes a HUGE difference when a reader or editor reads your story, liberty.

mary rosenblum

Think of a landscape. You're looking out at a beautiful valley on a clear fall day. Now think of that valley on a foggy morning.

mary rosenblum

The unnecessary words are like the fog.

mary rosenblum

You can still see the valley, but the clarity is lost and so is much of the beauty you saw on the clear day.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about action tags and tone of voice in dialogue. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

That's why action tags are so useful.

mary rosenblum

They allow you to layer in character emotion and visuals without adding whole sentences of description, narrative exposition, or character thoughts.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about action tags and tone of voice in dialogue. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

One caveat here.

mary rosenblum

I see this all the time when students first start to experiment with action tags.

mary rosenblum

Beware of 'inadvertant action tags'.

mary rosenblum

"I think it's a mistake to talk to her." Jeanne threw herself down on the sofa.

mary rosenblum

Who said this? Jeanne, right? BUT...what if this is the actual conversation:

mary rosenblum

"I think it's a mistake to talk to her."

mary rosenblum

Jeanne threw herself down on the sofa. "Then just stay home."

mary rosenblum

Now who said what?

mary rosenblum

Jeanne said 'Then just stay home' and somebody else said 'I think it's a mistake to talk to her."

mary rosenblum

But if you put Jeanne's action on the same line as 'I think it's a mistake to talk to her," 100% of your readers will hear Jeanne say those words.

mary rosenblum

If character A says something, and then Character B acts, indent and put Character B's action on the next line down.

mary rosenblum

That shows the reader Character B was not speaking.

libertybell

Thank you--I always get so much from these sessions!

mary rosenblum

Glad it helps, liberty. :-)

speckledorf

I like the " Her eyes fell to the floor." tags. Makes you want to watch where you step:--)

mary rosenblum

Oh yeah....DO watch for that.

mary rosenblum

You don't want readers giggling in what is supposed to be a powerful scene!

mary rosenblum

She dropped her eyes.

mary rosenblum

Poor girl, I hope she could find them again!

mary rosenblum

Also avoid the actions where you essetially disconnect part of your character's anatomy and give it autonomous life.

mary rosenblum

That's another giggle for a lot of readers.

mary rosenblum

His hand reached for the lamp.

mary rosenblum

And what was the rest of him doing????

mary rosenblum

Even when it's not humorous, it's kind of affected and tends to stand out, making the reader very aware of the words and distracting him/her from the scene.

mary rosenblum

Writing covers a wide spectrum in fiction, from 'style-driven' at one end to 'story-driven' at the other.

mary rosenblum

In literary and experimental fiction, at the 'style' end of the spectrum, the words themselves are part of the power of the work rather than...

mary rosenblum

the story, as in character interation, plot etc.

mary rosenblum

And there, your word choices and style matter a LOT.

mary rosenblum

At the other end of the spectrum, you have fiction that moves the reader through the reality of the character and that character's conficts and actions.

mary rosenblum

And there, you will tend to find more power when the words are not noticed by the reader, when they are essentially invisible...

mary rosenblum

so that the reader shares the actions of the POV character as if he/she is living the story, too.

mary rosenblum

What often happens at the novice level is that you get an awkward mix of the two...

mary rosenblum

as the writer uses turns of phrase and prose mannerisms that stand out and can seem affected in a story...

mary rosenblum

that is really story-driven.

mary rosenblum

It takes practice and learning to control your language....think of it as an artist choosing...

mary rosenblum

a particular brush or tool in order to create the effect he/she desires.

mary rosenblum

That's mostly what you're learning as you write and write and write...how to use words to more effectively do what you mean your story to do.

mary rosenblum

You don't realize how much craft affects the impact of your story when you first start writing...nobody does. :-)

mary rosenblum

The more you learn about it, the more you see the difference between a powerfullly written story and a poorly written story...even when both ideas are good.

mary rosenblum

Good craft will not turn a poor story idea into a powerful one, but poor craft can turn a powerful story idea into a poor story.

libertybell

is there a premise for mixing the two style (literary-internal/genre-external???) where they don't step on each other and you lose the reader?

mary rosenblum

Sure, but it's much harder to pull off than you might think. A lovely example of that...

mary rosenblum

is the Last Unicorn by Peter Beagle. (NOT the movie, the book!).

mary rosenblum

Peter LOVES language and the language of Unicorn is lyrical and lush and yet suits the story nicely.

mary rosenblum

It's very narrative and boy does it work!

mary rosenblum

But there, the plot is negligible.

mary rosenblum

It's the characterization and the style that really give the book its power.

beryl

Someone told me that they always read Stephen King's books and enjoy the stories but compared to other writers, they don't think he writes well. My brain swelled taking that thought in.

mary rosenblum

Never confuse popularity with quality, beryl.

mary rosenblum

Stephen King taps into some very universal fears that make his horror sell very very well..

mary rosenblum

It would be nice if quality alone sold books, but alas that it not the case. Using the bestseller list as a standard of quality is not going to help you much.

mary rosenblum

I read widely and eclectically, always looking for people who do things really well. :-) I don't think I"ve read ...

mary rosenblum

a book from the best seller list since the first HP books. :-)

mary rosenblum

In fiction, at least.

mary rosenblum

So anyway, to sum up...try using those action tags.

mary rosenblum

They give you a lot more flexibility with your dialogue, by allowing you to...

mary rosenblum

add in a lot more 'layers' for the reader without adding words.

mary rosenblum

You'll deepen characterization a lot if we get a sense of the characters' reaction to comments by other characters...

mary rosenblum

and even if we're not in a character's POV, his flinch, or her grimace will give us information...

mary rosenblum

about what he or she is thinking.

mary rosenblum

So if you're tempted to switch POV so that you can let us know what a non POV character is thinking...

mary rosenblum

see if you can't drop a clue about his/her thoughts through the body langauge.

mary rosenblum

Readers are sharp. A small clue tells us a lot.

mary rosenblum

Dialogue can be one of your most powerful tools as a writer, and action tags will certainly help you make the most use of it.

mary rosenblum

Wel, this has been a fun Oregon hour. Any last questions before we wind up here?

libertybell

sometime could you show us about using another language and then explaining it in English?

mary rosenblum

Sure, bell. How about next Tuesday? I'll talk about using dialect and foreign languages in fiction?

mary rosenblum

I'm always happy to get suggestions for the Forums.

libertybell

Thanks. Look forward to it.

mary rosenblum

Great. I'll put it on the calendar. :-)

mary rosenblum

Well, thanks for coming all!

mary rosenblum

Do drop by tomorrow for our casual chat...same time as this, but we just get together to hang out and talk about whatever.

mary rosenblum

It's a lot of fun.

geezer

How about plotting?

mary rosenblum

Sure, geeze. Can you make the Friday forums? I could do that this Friday.

geezer

Great!

mary rosenblum

Will do. !

mary rosenblum

See you all tomorrow.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Have a good week, all.

mary rosenblum

See you tomorrow!

 

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