Forum Transcripts

Dialogue: The Writer's Sharpest Tool 1/24/06

Event start time:

Tue Jan 24 12:05:40 2006

Event end time:

Tue Jan 24 13:31:27 2006



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Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Tuesday Forum.

mary rosenblum

I hope you all had a great weekend.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about dialogue as a writing tool. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mephistopheles

as a newbie in writing, how do we establish good dialogue between characters and readers?

mary rosenblum

This is a big issue, mephis, and the reason why I touch on the subject of dialogue regularly.

mary rosenblum

It can be a difficult technique to master at first, but it is one of the most powerful tools...

mary rosenblum

in a writer's toolkit in terms of what it can do for your prose...

mary rosenblum

and learning how to make use of dialogue rather than just 'sticking it in' will do a lot for your story or personal narrative.

mary rosenblum

The difficulty in creating realistic dialogue is making the readers feel that not only are they...

mary rosenblum

hearing real people talk, but they're watching the scene at the same time...

mary rosenblum

just as we see and hear at the same time in the real world.

mephistopheles

I have my mini novel done and most say they can follow the dialogue at a good even space, but then again I used 16pt. fonts to make it easier on the eyes.

mary rosenblum

And of course, your novel will be published in a MUCH smaller typeface, mephis.

mary rosenblum

Unless your readers are visually challenged, it's not the type or the shape on the page...

mary rosenblum

that makes dialogue easy to read or hard.

mary rosenblum

It's how you write it.

mary rosenblum

But good dialogue does many things.

mary rosenblum

It deepens the characterization for any character who opens his/her mouth in your story.

mary rosenblum

It can be a marvelous tool to feed the reader backstory.

mary rosenblum

And you can really enrich the scene through dialogue.

xana

I notice a tendency to have a character say too much at a time. When real people do that, we think of them as bores.

mary rosenblum

Exactly.

mary rosenblum

And that comes from not analyzing 'conversation' and breaking it down into its component parts...

mary rosenblum

from the standpoint of both the speaker and the listener (your reader).

mary rosenblum

Let's start first with what makes an effective dialogue, technique wise, and then...

mary rosenblum

we can talk about how to use that dialogue.

mary rosenblum

Think about a conversation. Imagine a couple of friends on the street with you.

mary rosenblum

Each of you speaks, either initiating a statement or responding to someone else's statement.

mary rosenblum

So you have spoken words. But that's not all that's going on. Think about it.

mary rosenblum

What else is happening. What else are YOU doing as part of this conversation?

mary rosenblum

You're probably carrying on a mental repartee in your head.

mary rosenblum

You may not voice this reponse out loud if it might get you into social trouble...

mary rosenblum

but you might THINK 'you're an idiot, Jim'.

mary rosenblum

And you're also ...whether you're aware of it or not...paying attention to the body language of your conversational partners.

mary rosenblum

You can tell if someone is confused, so you add a bit of explanation. You notice that Jim is getting angry...

mary rosenblum

and what Bonnie is saying...you notice his tight jaw and hunched shoulders...

mary rosenblum

even if you don't do it consciously.

mary rosenblum

So we have three things going on...speech, thought, and visuals.

mary rosenblum

That's where most novices have problems.

mary rosenblum

They do the speech part just fine and can't figure out why the dialogue seems 'flat'.

mary rosenblum

But speech is only 1/3 of the equation.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about dialogue as a writing tool. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

lapart

taking one of your own dialogue with a person do you need to

lapart

get their permission to use it in your story?

mary rosenblum

Not unless it's libelous, lapart.

mary rosenblum

If you have a real person admitting that he murdered someone, he's probably going to sue you!

mary rosenblum

So you'd better be ready to prove he did it! :-)

mary rosenblum

If you quote someone in a nonfiction piece, you do need to get their permission...

mary rosenblum

but in fiction, it's fiction.

mary rosenblum

If it happens to be real speech, no big deal...you are putting it into the mouth of an unreal character...

mary rosenblum

you are not attributing it to a real person.

xana

Even if it isn't libelous, if anyone could identify the person, you could lose a friend if you aren't careful.

mary rosenblum

That is certainly true, xana, and a VERY good reason not to use real friends in your fiction...

mary rosenblum

they can end up real EX frends, real fast.

janecj333

in my experience, in an intense scene it's not so much what the characters say as what they don't say that is key...how they dance around the subject

mary rosenblum

Exactly, and if you couple that with a deft use of body langauge and awareness on the part of your POV character...

mary rosenblum

you can convey a LOT with very little dialogue and convey things that are never spoken out loud.

libertybell

Is the internal speech handled differently, i.e., italics?

mary rosenblum

If you want it to be, liberty. I don't do it. Most of the time, italic is intrusive and most readers hear a 'different voice' when they read it.

mary rosenblum

Now some publishers insist on italicizing all direct thought...that is when you convey the character's thoughts exactly, as if you were quoting them in dialogue.

mary rosenblum

That's why I use paraphrased thought more than direct thought.

mary rosenblum

So I don't have to fight with editors over italic.

kungfumama

When do you typically use italics, Mary?

mary rosenblum

I use italic to indicate a non-human voice, kung. Might be a loudspeaker, a computer voice, a telepathic communication.

libertybell

Could you give example of direct versus paraphrased?

mary rosenblum

Sure...and there are good reasons to use paraphrased thought.

mary rosenblum

We don't tend to think in long, grammatically correct sentences...so when your characters do that, it sounds phony to the reader.

mary rosenblum

Here's a direct thought example.

mary rosenblum

Sally flopped down on the sofa. I really do not want to go to Aunt Min's, she thought sullenly. Every time I go there she spends the whole week nagging me about being ladylike and she makes me wear dresses.

mary rosenblum

Here's the paraphrased version:

mary rosenblum

Sally flopped down on the sofa. She did not want to go to Aunt Min's. Sally made a face. Every time she went, Aunt Min spent the whole week nagging her to be ladylike and she made her wear dresses.

mary rosenblum

This is simply me paraphrasing what Sally thought...and it was probably not nearly so 'dialogue like' as the first example, in reality...

mary rosenblum

and if I use Sally's voice, the readers read it as Sally's thoughts without a hitch.

kungfumama

so is paraphrased more typical of third person, and direct more typical of first?

mary rosenblum

First person is ALL internal monologue, kung, except when the first person POV speaks out loud to another character.

mary rosenblum

In fact, if you find yourself using a lot of internal monologue in your story...a lot of thoughts...try changing to first person.

mary rosenblum

Here's Sally in first person:

mary rosenblum

I flopped on the sofa. I did not want to go to Aunt Min's. I mean, come on! Every time I go she spends the whole week nagging me to be ladylike. And she makes me wear dresses. I ask you!

libertybell

So paraphrase turns thought into narrative?

mary rosenblum

That's it, liberty...and it won't stand out as 'author voice' and stick out if you use the character's own vocabulary and voice for that narrative.

mary rosenblum

If you use YOUR voice it will be more obvious and less successful.

mary rosenblum

Your character does NOT talk like you, RIGHT? :-)

cherley

Almost saying the same thing, just switched it around

mary rosenblum

they are all very similar, cherley, but you'll find that the direct thought is more noticed by readers and tends to read 'clunky'.

mary rosenblum

I would avoid a lot of direct thought if I were you.

mary rosenblum

Pay attention to how you think.

mary rosenblum

For most people, it is rarely in long, grammatically correct sentences.

mary rosenblum

So when characters do that it feels unreal to the readers.

andi

off the topic. I wondered about mentioning something like McDonalds in a story where the mc went to eat

mary rosenblum

That's fine, andi. Technically you cannot use any brand name without permission...they are trade marks.

mary rosenblum

Your POV must drink a cola beverage not a Coke.

mary rosenblum

But you know what? Characters drink Cokes.

mary rosenblum

The police will not arrive at your door and who asks for a 'cola beverage' at the corner store?

mary rosenblum

REality wins out over the letter of trademark law, even with publishers. :-)

mary rosenblum

If your POV is not poisoned while eating at McyD's you're fine.

ling630

well then wouldn't dialogue be better shown in action rather than told in first person to have the reader more involved?

mary rosenblum

Ah, and this is where your subjective decision matters, ling.

mary rosenblum

If your story is full of action, your character is doing things with other characters so you can keep ...

mary rosenblum

scenes moving and use dialogue, third is probably your better choice most of the time.

mary rosenblum

BUT...if your story is very intermal, if your character is going to spend a lot of time 'inside his/her own head'...

mary rosenblum

then first allows you to add a powerful voice and increase reader interest to make up for the lack of action.

sadie

Any suggestions for good reference books for words, slang, etc. that you wouldn't find in the dictionary?

mary rosenblum

Sadie, slang and idiom change all the time.

mary rosenblum

You can find some slang dictionaries out there...I have one for 'Barrio Spanish' for example...

mary rosenblum

If you know people who use that slang/idiom, take someone to lunch and pay attention. :-)

mary rosenblum

Otherwise, I've used personal narratives to pick up 'voice'...

mary rosenblum

Beware of Hollywood.

mary rosenblum

They feel no obligation to 'get it right'.

mary rosenblum

And even fiction....are you sure that this author got it right?

mary rosenblum

If you are, go for it.

mary rosenblum

But watch out for the date the book was published.

mary rosenblum

The slang in Chicago slums ten years ago is not that of today.

mary rosenblum

Certainly you do not want your dialogue to be grammatically correct unless that is the way your character speaks!

mary rosenblum

I don't speak grammatically correct English. I would turn off my conversational partners in a heartbeat. :-)

gskearney

I always thought it was a really, really good idea to have someone who uses the slang read your story. It's almost impossible to be sure of all the nuances otherwise. --gk

mary rosenblum

That's very important if your 'slang' includes an 'insider vocabulary'.

mary rosenblum

Doctors use words that nobody else does in their conversation.

mary rosenblum

So go serious dog trainers, gardeners, lawyers, truck drivers.

mary rosenblum

If you learn that 'insider vocabulary' you add enormous verisimilitude to your story.

mary rosenblum

Which is one of the ways you use dialogue as a tool.

mary rosenblum

And if you can have someone who belongs to that group 'vet' your dialogue I advise you to do so.

mary rosenblum

No matter how much I think I know how a cop or a soldier thinks/speaks I get caught time and again with mistakes by my expert readers.

geezer

I find myself slipping fron third to first person and back again when doing internal dialogue. Can they ever be mixed?

mary rosenblum

WEll, geeze, the 'first person' in internal mono is 'direct thought'...as in my first example with Sally.

mary rosenblum

The third is paraphrased and yes, you can use both in the same sentence even.

mary rosenblum

Marge flinched as the vase toppled. Oh darn! If that broke, Min would kill her.

mary rosenblum

The 'oh darn' is direct thought.

mary rosenblum

Actually, that's two sentences.

mary rosenblum

I should have said you can use both in the same paragraph. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about dialogue as a writing tool. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

lapart

how long should dialogue last before it gets boring

mary rosenblum

Dialogue needs to last as long as it needs to last, lapart. It's your job as writer to make it interesting.

libertybell

How much ethnicity should the author use in dialects?

mary rosenblum

As much as the scene requires, liberty. Beware of stereotypes.

mary rosenblum

If your character uses a regional or ethnic slang, use it.

kungfumama

isn't most of it getting into your characters head? Understanding how a 1920's PI would speak vs a highschool senior, for instance?

mary rosenblum

Of coures, Kung, and that's how dialogue deepens characterization.

mary rosenblum

So let's look at how to USE dialogue.

mary rosenblum

In terms of characterization, every time you open your mouth you reveal a lot about yourself...

mary rosenblum

even if you're talking about the weather.

mary rosenblum

You reveal your place of origin through your idiom and accent, you reveal your level of education ...

mary rosenblum

through your vocabulary. You reveal your world view through your choice of words.

mary rosenblum

We use very few neutral words.

mary rosenblum

Most are loaded with hints of who we are and how we think.

mary rosenblum

This is how you avoid switching POV if you want your readers to know how a non-POV character feels.

mary rosenblum

And remember...it's not just through the words...

mary rosenblum

Even in a non-POV character you also use body langauge to 'show us' what that character is thinking.

mary rosenblum

Say you want us to know that a character is lying. He knows something but is pretending he does not.

mary rosenblum

Our POV asks him outright...'were you at the school yesterday?"

mary rosenblum

"No." Carrie looked away, lips tight. "I was sick."

mary rosenblum

Most readers will instantly guess that Carrie is lying.

geezer

Ya know, folks in CA use "ya know", ya know.

mary rosenblum

People use all kinds of regional bits.

mary rosenblum

You red up your room in western PA.

mary rosenblum

Instead of clean up.

mary rosenblum

But a few of those 'ya know' go a long way. :-) Don't overdo it.

jyinxy

do you mean add emotion behind the dialog?

mary rosenblum

Jyinxy I know you sent this in back at the beginning, but this is how you add emotion to the dialogue...

mary rosenblum

through the non-POV characters' body language...

mary rosenblum

and through the POV character's thoughts.

mary rosenblum

So every line of dialogue is deepening the characterization of the character who uttered it.

mary rosenblum

If your character says 'watch out for those dogs, they look vicious'...we'll assume..

mary rosenblum

that this character is not a dog fan. Same thing if she calls them filthy dogs or mangy mutts or what have you.

mary rosenblum

So this is one use for your dialogue tool...deepen characterization.

kungfumama

So, how would you indicated someone is shouting in a dialogue (other than saying s/he shouted)? With captialization and/or an exclamation point?

mary rosenblum

Good question, kung! Actually, you're better off to use context rather than any special punctuation.

mary rosenblum

Use exclamation points sparingly. (I use them a lot in chat to indicate a rising inflection in my voice, but don't do that in prose.

janecj333

but if it's really a basket of sleeping kittens?

mary rosenblum

Oh the dogs, jane? LOL We'll either be thinking that she is not sharing the same universe we are...

mary rosenblum

or whatever else you've set us up for.

ling630

can dialogue be combined with setting to keep the story moving and interesting?

mary rosenblum

It always should be combined with visuals ling, unless it is very very brief.

mary rosenblum

Remember...in the real world we see and hear at the same time.

mary rosenblum

One of the most common problems novices run into is the looooong dialogue scene with no visuals.

mary rosenblum

The effect is that we close our eyes and listen.

mary rosenblum

Well, very rarely do we carry on a conversation with our eyes closed...so the scene reads flat .

mary rosenblum

It's not just that it's boring...it's just not realistic.

mary rosenblum

Use action tags to slip in bits of visual..

mary rosenblum

and you'll create the effec of simultaneous sight and hearing.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about dialogue as a writing tool. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

lapart

what are some good ways to practice dialogue?

mary rosenblum

Talk out loud with your characters, lapart.

mary rosenblum

And a nice 'crutch' when you're new to this, is to think of a friend who...

mary rosenblum

reminds you of your character in terms of world view, education...

mary rosenblum

and ask yourself 'how would Jeremy say this?"

janecj333

They sneaked through the foyer, a basket of sleeping kittens near the door. "Watch out for those dogs; they look vicious," Jewel said in her now too-frequent cloak-and-dagger whisper, and Henry frowned. She wasn't going to let it drop, was she? One tiny moment of cowardice and it had cost him a lifetime of self-respect.

mary rosenblum

I'm chuckling.

mary rosenblum

And actually, Jane, you could leave off much of the final sentence...

mary rosenblum

you don't need to tell us this much. All Henry has to think is 'One tiny moment of cowardice...' and let the thought trail away.

mary rosenblum

We'll fill in all the rest for ourselves just fine. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is the second of the three powerful uses of dialogue...

mary rosenblum

handing the reader backstory.

mary rosenblum

From the above example, we now know that Henry had an encounter with a dog in the past that turned out badly for him and that Jewel has ...

mary rosenblum

enjoyed reminding him of it. Even if we shorten that final sentence, the reader will guess that Henry and Jewel are old friends or partners...

mary rosenblum

and that she had some connection to the dog event directly or indirectly.

mary rosenblum

So we have picked up a nice handful of clues about their backstory from a couple of lines of dialogue.

mary rosenblum

I often find reason to involve a naive character in my stories, especially if I've created a complex...

mary rosenblum

SF or fantasy or exotic setting for a story.

mary rosenblum

A naive character does not know what is going on and will make mistakes or ask questions...

mary rosenblum

that allow you to enlighten not only the naive character but also the readers.

mary rosenblum

BUT...

mary rosenblum

that naive character must be central to the plot or readers see through that one in a heartbeat and it's just about as bad as out and out telling 'em what is going on in YOUR voice.

mary rosenblum

The same goes for the 'as we all know' dialogue. The very first season of Star Trek the TV series is infamous for that.

mary rosenblum

As we all know, we're on our way to the planet Sar to deliver a load of vital vaccine, one charater says to another.

mary rosenblum

Well, if we ALL know it, why do we have to remind each other?

mary rosenblum

So don't have your family members on the way to the family reunion describe family relations as if they are instructing strangers.

mary rosenblum

BUT...if they discuss their anticipation that Aunt Min (I'm picking on her today) is going to snub...

mary rosenblum

Cousin Bill and Andrea chuckles and says that if they live to be a hundred, they'll..

mary rosenblum

never get over Bill's lawsuit about that right of way, then we know why Min is going to snub Cousin Bill...

mary rosenblum

even if we don't know all the details.

mary rosenblum

A casual reference can give the reader a lot of clues.

mary rosenblum

Your character does not need to explain if the reader can guess.

mary rosenblum

Dialogue is your best tool for feeding TONS of information to the reader without TELLING.

mary rosenblum

BUT...you must make that conversation intrinsic to the story.

mary rosenblum

Or it's just 'as we all know' dialogue.

mary rosenblum

And that is where you the author has to work.

mary rosenblum

I frequently design an event so as to elicit dialogue that will enlighten my readers.

mary rosenblum

One of the challenges in writing in the speculative fiction universe or doing mainstream in an exotic location/culture...

mary rosenblum

is that you have to create the universe in great depth.

mary rosenblum

And dialogue is a critical tool.

treetopper

Is this punctuated correctly: "She did what?" I shrieked.

mary rosenblum

I believe so, tree, without thumbing through Strunk and White. :-)

mary rosenblum

If you're concerned about your knowlege of grammar...

mary rosenblum

and your not a LR student (because students get Essentials of English as part of their course)...

mary rosenblum

then I'd invest in Strunk and White's Elements of Style.

mary rosenblum

It's small, cheap, and covers most issues of usage, style, and basic composition.

janecj333

I sometimes think there's nothing worse than when characters talk, but it has nothing to do with anything...for paragraph after paragraph, or it's all "Hi, how are you?" "Fine. Did you get the papers I sent you?" "Yes, filed em." ""So, what are we doing, today?". But then I read paragraphs with no dialogue, no internal dialogue, just a Viking sailing around from Norway to Greenland for page after page, slicing, dicing, and then the story ends..

mary rosenblum

Well, those are both extremes on the spectrum jane.

mary rosenblum

And you should avoid both extremes.

mary rosenblum

A story will vary from one end of that spectrum to the other depending on the nature of the story.

mary rosenblum

Some will be more internal, more plot driven, and they will contain relatively more dialogue and thought, perhaps, and less action...

mary rosenblum

while others will be more plot driven and may contain more action and less dialogue or simply less internal monologue.

mary rosenblum

You need the balance that works for your story.

mary rosenblum

There is no absolute proportion here.

xana

A problem I've noticed in some dialogue is that one character is merely a vehicle for the other character's monologue. I find this annoying.

mary rosenblum

That's a matter of characterization, xana.

mary rosenblum

Your primary characters need to have some development even if they're not the POV.

mary rosenblum

Spear carriers are there to open doors, bring the horse from the stable..

mary rosenblum

you don't need as much there.

mary rosenblum

But if your character is directly involved with the plot, that person needs to have some depth or, as you say,...

mary rosenblum

it's like propping a cardboard image up on your stage. Doesn't add much and looks silly.

mary rosenblum

Work on the technique of good dialogue...

mary rosenblum

balancing speech with thought and visual observation.

mary rosenblum

Then use your dialogue to deepen the characterization through the word choices of your characters...

mary rosenblum

and the thoughts of the POV character.

mary rosenblum

Use it to feed the reader information as your characters make references to backstory events or offstage events.

mary rosenblum

And finally, as they notice the surroundings and the other characters' body language during conversations...

mary rosenblum

use it to maintain the setting.

mary rosenblum

AND...if you want to show the reader something that your POV character isn't likely to notice...

mary rosenblum

say you really want your readers to see the various flowers in a garden...

mary rosenblum

but your POV wouldn't know a rose from a dandelion...

mary rosenblum

another character can point it out. "Look at that Queen of Sheba rose. I've never seen one that big."

mary rosenblum

"What rose?" Marl grumbled. "Keep your mind on what we're supposed to be doing, will you?"

geezer

Off topic. I find myself over using "as". Could you do a session on bad habits and how to break them sometime?

mary rosenblum

I will, geeze.

mary rosenblum

Actually, if you KNOW you have a bad habit like that, use your find feature on your word processor...

mary rosenblum

and go find all those 'as'.

mary rosenblum

Then fix some of 'em.

mary rosenblum

Those 'tropes' crop up all the time.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Do join us tomorrow for our casual chat...no topic, just talk...same place, same time.

mary rosenblum

Have a good week, all! See you tomorrow.

 

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