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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Tuesday Forum.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you all had a great
weekend.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about dialogue as a writing tool. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You
can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to
reach me.
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mephistopheles
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as a newbie in writing, how do
we establish good dialogue between characters and readers?
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mary rosenblum
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This is a big issue, mephis,
and the reason why I touch on the subject of dialogue regularly.
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mary rosenblum
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It can be a difficult
technique to master at first, but it is one of the most powerful tools...
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mary rosenblum
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in a writer's toolkit in terms
of what it can do for your prose...
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mary rosenblum
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and learning how to make use
of dialogue rather than just 'sticking it in' will do a lot for your story
or personal narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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The difficulty in creating
realistic dialogue is making the readers feel that not only are they...
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mary rosenblum
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hearing real people talk, but
they're watching the scene at the same time...
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mary rosenblum
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just as we see and hear at the
same time in the real world.
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mephistopheles
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I have my mini novel done and
most say they can follow the dialogue at a good even space, but then again
I used 16pt. fonts to make it easier on the eyes.
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mary rosenblum
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And of course, your novel will
be published in a MUCH smaller typeface, mephis.
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mary rosenblum
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Unless your readers are
visually challenged, it's not the type or the shape on the page...
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mary rosenblum
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that makes dialogue easy to
read or hard.
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mary rosenblum
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It's how you write it.
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mary rosenblum
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But good dialogue does many
things.
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mary rosenblum
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It deepens the
characterization for any character who opens his/her mouth in your story.
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mary rosenblum
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It can be a marvelous tool to
feed the reader backstory.
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mary rosenblum
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And you can really enrich the
scene through dialogue.
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xana
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I notice a tendency to have a
character say too much at a time. When real people do that, we think of
them as bores.
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly.
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mary rosenblum
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And that comes from not
analyzing 'conversation' and breaking it down into its component parts...
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mary rosenblum
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from the standpoint of both
the speaker and the listener (your reader).
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mary rosenblum
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Let's start first with what
makes an effective dialogue, technique wise, and then...
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mary rosenblum
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we can talk about how to use
that dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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Think about a conversation.
Imagine a couple of friends on the street with you.
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mary rosenblum
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Each of you speaks, either
initiating a statement or responding to someone else's statement.
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mary rosenblum
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So you have spoken words. But
that's not all that's going on. Think about it.
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mary rosenblum
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What else is happening. What
else are YOU doing as part of this conversation?
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mary rosenblum
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You're probably carrying on a
mental repartee in your head.
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mary rosenblum
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You may not voice this reponse
out loud if it might get you into social trouble...
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mary rosenblum
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but you might THINK 'you're an
idiot, Jim'.
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mary rosenblum
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And you're also ...whether
you're aware of it or not...paying attention to the body language of your
conversational partners.
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mary rosenblum
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You can tell if someone is confused,
so you add a bit of explanation. You notice that Jim is getting angry...
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mary rosenblum
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and what Bonnie is
saying...you notice his tight jaw and hunched shoulders...
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mary rosenblum
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even if you don't do it
consciously.
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mary rosenblum
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So we have three things going
on...speech, thought, and visuals.
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mary rosenblum
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That's where most novices have
problems.
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mary rosenblum
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They do the speech part just
fine and can't figure out why the dialogue seems 'flat'.
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mary rosenblum
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But speech is only 1/3 of the
equation.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about dialogue as a writing tool. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You
can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to
reach me.
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lapart
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taking one of your own dialogue
with a person do you need to
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lapart
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get their permission to use it
in your story?
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mary rosenblum
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Not unless it's libelous,
lapart.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have a real person
admitting that he murdered someone, he's probably going to sue you!
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mary rosenblum
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So you'd better be ready to
prove he did it! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If you quote someone in a
nonfiction piece, you do need to get their permission...
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mary rosenblum
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but in fiction, it's fiction.
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mary rosenblum
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If it happens to be real
speech, no big deal...you are putting it into the mouth of an unreal
character...
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mary rosenblum
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you are not attributing it to
a real person.
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xana
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Even if it isn't libelous, if
anyone could identify the person, you could lose a friend if you aren't
careful.
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mary rosenblum
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That is certainly true, xana,
and a VERY good reason not to use real friends in your fiction...
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mary rosenblum
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they can end up real EX
frends, real fast.
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janecj333
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in my experience, in an intense
scene it's not so much what the characters say as what they don't say that
is key...how they dance around the subject
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, and if you couple
that with a deft use of body langauge and awareness on the part of your POV
character...
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mary rosenblum
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you can convey a LOT with very
little dialogue and convey things that are never spoken out loud.
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libertybell
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Is the internal speech handled
differently, i.e., italics?
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mary rosenblum
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If you want it to be, liberty.
I don't do it. Most of the time, italic is intrusive and most readers hear
a 'different voice' when they read it.
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mary rosenblum
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Now some publishers insist on
italicizing all direct thought...that is when you convey the character's
thoughts exactly, as if you were quoting them in dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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That's why I use paraphrased
thought more than direct thought.
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mary rosenblum
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So I don't have to fight with
editors over italic.
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kungfumama
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When do you typically use
italics, Mary?
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mary rosenblum
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I use italic to indicate a
non-human voice, kung. Might be a loudspeaker, a computer voice, a
telepathic communication.
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libertybell
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Could you give example of direct
versus paraphrased?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure...and there are good
reasons to use paraphrased thought.
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mary rosenblum
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We don't tend to think in
long, grammatically correct sentences...so when your characters do that, it
sounds phony to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Here's a direct thought
example.
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mary rosenblum
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Sally flopped down on the
sofa. I really do not want to go to Aunt Min's, she thought sullenly. Every
time I go there she spends the whole week nagging me about being ladylike
and she makes me wear dresses.
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mary rosenblum
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Here's the paraphrased
version:
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mary rosenblum
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Sally flopped down on the
sofa. She did not want to go to Aunt Min's. Sally made a face. Every time
she went, Aunt Min spent the whole week nagging her to be ladylike and she
made her wear dresses.
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mary rosenblum
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This is simply me paraphrasing
what Sally thought...and it was probably not nearly so 'dialogue like' as
the first example, in reality...
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mary rosenblum
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and if I use Sally's voice,
the readers read it as Sally's thoughts without a hitch.
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kungfumama
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so is paraphrased more typical
of third person, and direct more typical of first?
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mary rosenblum
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First person is ALL internal
monologue, kung, except when the first person POV speaks out loud to
another character.
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mary rosenblum
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In fact, if you find yourself
using a lot of internal monologue in your story...a lot of thoughts...try
changing to first person.
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mary rosenblum
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Here's Sally in first person:
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mary rosenblum
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I flopped on the sofa. I did
not want to go to Aunt Min's. I mean, come on! Every time I go she spends
the whole week nagging me to be ladylike. And she makes me wear dresses. I
ask you!
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libertybell
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So paraphrase turns thought into
narrative?
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mary rosenblum
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That's it, liberty...and it
won't stand out as 'author voice' and stick out if you use the character's
own vocabulary and voice for that narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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If you use YOUR voice it will
be more obvious and less successful.
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mary rosenblum
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Your character does NOT talk
like you, RIGHT? :-)
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cherley
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Almost saying the same thing,
just switched it around
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mary rosenblum
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they are all very similar,
cherley, but you'll find that the direct thought is more noticed by readers
and tends to read 'clunky'.
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mary rosenblum
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I would avoid a lot of direct
thought if I were you.
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mary rosenblum
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Pay attention to how you
think.
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mary rosenblum
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For most people, it is rarely
in long, grammatically correct sentences.
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mary rosenblum
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So when characters do that it
feels unreal to the readers.
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andi
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off the topic. I wondered about
mentioning something like McDonalds in a story where the mc went to eat
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mary rosenblum
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That's fine, andi. Technically
you cannot use any brand name without permission...they are trade marks.
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mary rosenblum
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Your POV must drink a cola
beverage not a Coke.
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mary rosenblum
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But you know what? Characters
drink Cokes.
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mary rosenblum
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The police will not arrive at
your door and who asks for a 'cola beverage' at the corner store?
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mary rosenblum
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REality wins out over the
letter of trademark law, even with publishers. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If your POV is not poisoned
while eating at McyD's you're fine.
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ling630
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well then wouldn't dialogue be
better shown in action rather than told in first person to have the reader
more involved?
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, and this is where your
subjective decision matters, ling.
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mary rosenblum
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If your story is full of
action, your character is doing things with other characters so you can
keep ...
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mary rosenblum
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scenes moving and use
dialogue, third is probably your better choice most of the time.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...if your story is very
intermal, if your character is going to spend a lot of time 'inside his/her
own head'...
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mary rosenblum
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then first allows you to add a
powerful voice and increase reader interest to make up for the lack of
action.
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sadie
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Any suggestions for good
reference books for words, slang, etc. that you wouldn't find in the
dictionary?
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mary rosenblum
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Sadie, slang and idiom change
all the time.
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mary rosenblum
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You can find some slang
dictionaries out there...I have one for 'Barrio Spanish' for example...
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mary rosenblum
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If you know people who use
that slang/idiom, take someone to lunch and pay attention. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Otherwise, I've used personal
narratives to pick up 'voice'...
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mary rosenblum
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Beware of Hollywood.
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mary rosenblum
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They feel no obligation to
'get it right'.
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mary rosenblum
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And even fiction....are you
sure that this author got it right?
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mary rosenblum
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If you are, go for it.
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mary rosenblum
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But watch out for the date the
book was published.
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mary rosenblum
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The slang in Chicago slums ten
years ago is not that of today.
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mary rosenblum
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Certainly you do not want your
dialogue to be grammatically correct unless that is the way your character
speaks!
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mary rosenblum
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I don't speak grammatically
correct English. I would turn off my conversational partners in a
heartbeat. :-)
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gskearney
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I always thought it was a
really, really good idea to have someone who uses the slang read your
story. It's almost impossible to be sure of all the nuances otherwise. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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That's very important if your
'slang' includes an 'insider vocabulary'.
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mary rosenblum
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Doctors use words that nobody
else does in their conversation.
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mary rosenblum
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So go serious dog trainers,
gardeners, lawyers, truck drivers.
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mary rosenblum
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If you learn that 'insider
vocabulary' you add enormous verisimilitude to your story.
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mary rosenblum
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Which is one of the ways you
use dialogue as a tool.
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mary rosenblum
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And if you can have someone
who belongs to that group 'vet' your dialogue I advise you to do so.
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mary rosenblum
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No matter how much I think I
know how a cop or a soldier thinks/speaks I get caught time and again with
mistakes by my expert readers.
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geezer
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I find myself slipping fron
third to first person and back again when doing internal dialogue. Can they
ever be mixed?
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mary rosenblum
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WEll, geeze, the 'first
person' in internal mono is 'direct thought'...as in my first example with
Sally.
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mary rosenblum
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The third is paraphrased and
yes, you can use both in the same sentence even.
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mary rosenblum
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Marge flinched as the vase
toppled. Oh darn! If that broke, Min would kill her.
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mary rosenblum
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The 'oh darn' is direct
thought.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, that's two
sentences.
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mary rosenblum
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I should have said you can use
both in the same paragraph. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about dialogue as a writing tool. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You
can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to
reach me.
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lapart
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how long should dialogue last
before it gets boring
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mary rosenblum
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Dialogue needs to last as long
as it needs to last, lapart. It's your job as writer to make it
interesting.
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libertybell
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How much ethnicity should the
author use in dialects?
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mary rosenblum
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As much as the scene requires,
liberty. Beware of stereotypes.
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mary rosenblum
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If your character uses a
regional or ethnic slang, use it.
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kungfumama
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isn't most of it getting into
your characters head? Understanding how a 1920's PI would speak vs a
highschool senior, for instance?
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mary rosenblum
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Of coures, Kung, and that's
how dialogue deepens characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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So let's look at how to USE
dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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In terms of characterization,
every time you open your mouth you reveal a lot about yourself...
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mary rosenblum
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even if you're talking about
the weather.
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mary rosenblum
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You reveal your place of
origin through your idiom and accent, you reveal your level of education
...
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mary rosenblum
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through your vocabulary. You
reveal your world view through your choice of words.
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mary rosenblum
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We use very few neutral words.
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mary rosenblum
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Most are loaded with hints of
who we are and how we think.
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mary rosenblum
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This is how you avoid
switching POV if you want your readers to know how a non-POV character
feels.
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mary rosenblum
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And remember...it's not just
through the words...
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mary rosenblum
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Even in a non-POV character
you also use body langauge to 'show us' what that character is thinking.
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mary rosenblum
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Say you want us to know that a
character is lying. He knows something but is pretending he does not.
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mary rosenblum
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Our POV asks him
outright...'were you at the school yesterday?"
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mary rosenblum
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"No." Carrie looked
away, lips tight. "I was sick."
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mary rosenblum
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Most readers will instantly
guess that Carrie is lying.
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geezer
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Ya know, folks in CA use
"ya know", ya know.
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mary rosenblum
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People use all kinds of
regional bits.
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mary rosenblum
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You red up your room in
western PA.
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mary rosenblum
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Instead of clean up.
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mary rosenblum
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But a few of those 'ya know'
go a long way. :-) Don't overdo it.
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jyinxy
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do you mean add emotion behind
the dialog?
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mary rosenblum
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Jyinxy I know you sent this in
back at the beginning, but this is how you add emotion to the dialogue...
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mary rosenblum
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through the non-POV
characters' body language...
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mary rosenblum
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and through the POV
character's thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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So every line of dialogue is
deepening the characterization of the character who uttered it.
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mary rosenblum
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If your character says 'watch
out for those dogs, they look vicious'...we'll assume..
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mary rosenblum
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that this character is not a
dog fan. Same thing if she calls them filthy dogs or mangy mutts or what
have you.
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mary rosenblum
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So this is one use for your
dialogue tool...deepen characterization.
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kungfumama
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So, how would you indicated
someone is shouting in a dialogue (other than saying s/he shouted)? With
captialization and/or an exclamation point?
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mary rosenblum
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Good question, kung! Actually,
you're better off to use context rather than any special punctuation.
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mary rosenblum
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Use exclamation points
sparingly. (I use them a lot in chat to indicate a rising inflection in my
voice, but don't do that in prose.
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janecj333
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but if it's really a basket of
sleeping kittens?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh the dogs, jane? LOL We'll
either be thinking that she is not sharing the same universe we are...
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mary rosenblum
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or whatever else you've set us
up for.
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ling630
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can dialogue be combined with
setting to keep the story moving and interesting?
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mary rosenblum
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It always should be combined
with visuals ling, unless it is very very brief.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...in the real world
we see and hear at the same time.
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mary rosenblum
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One of the most common
problems novices run into is the looooong dialogue scene with no visuals.
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mary rosenblum
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The effect is that we close
our eyes and listen.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, very rarely do we carry
on a conversation with our eyes closed...so the scene reads flat .
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mary rosenblum
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It's not just that it's
boring...it's just not realistic.
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mary rosenblum
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Use action tags to slip in
bits of visual..
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mary rosenblum
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and you'll create the effec of
simultaneous sight and hearing.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about dialogue as a writing tool. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You
can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to
reach me.
|
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lapart
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what are some good ways to
practice dialogue?
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mary rosenblum
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Talk out loud with your
characters, lapart.
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mary rosenblum
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And a nice 'crutch' when
you're new to this, is to think of a friend who...
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mary rosenblum
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reminds you of your character
in terms of world view, education...
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mary rosenblum
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and ask yourself 'how would
Jeremy say this?"
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janecj333
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They sneaked through the foyer,
a basket of sleeping kittens near the door. "Watch out for those dogs;
they look vicious," Jewel said in her now too-frequent
cloak-and-dagger whisper, and Henry frowned. She wasn't going to let it
drop, was she? One tiny moment of cowardice and it had cost him a lifetime
of self-respect.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm chuckling.
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mary rosenblum
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And actually, Jane, you could
leave off much of the final sentence...
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mary rosenblum
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you don't need to tell us this
much. All Henry has to think is 'One tiny moment of cowardice...' and let
the thought trail away.
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mary rosenblum
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We'll fill in all the rest for
ourselves just fine. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is the second of the
three powerful uses of dialogue...
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mary rosenblum
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handing the reader backstory.
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mary rosenblum
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From the above example, we now
know that Henry had an encounter with a dog in the past that turned out
badly for him and that Jewel has ...
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mary rosenblum
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enjoyed reminding him of it.
Even if we shorten that final sentence, the reader will guess that Henry
and Jewel are old friends or partners...
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mary rosenblum
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and that she had some
connection to the dog event directly or indirectly.
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mary rosenblum
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So we have picked up a nice
handful of clues about their backstory from a couple of lines of dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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I often find reason to involve
a naive character in my stories, especially if I've created a complex...
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mary rosenblum
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SF or fantasy or exotic
setting for a story.
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mary rosenblum
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A naive character does not
know what is going on and will make mistakes or ask questions...
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mary rosenblum
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that allow you to enlighten
not only the naive character but also the readers.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...
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mary rosenblum
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that naive character must be
central to the plot or readers see through that one in a heartbeat and it's
just about as bad as out and out telling 'em what is going on in YOUR
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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The same goes for the 'as we
all know' dialogue. The very first season of Star Trek the TV series is
infamous for that.
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mary rosenblum
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As we all know, we're on our
way to the planet Sar to deliver a load of vital vaccine, one charater says
to another.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, if we ALL know it, why
do we have to remind each other?
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mary rosenblum
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So don't have your family
members on the way to the family reunion describe family relations as if
they are instructing strangers.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...if they discuss their
anticipation that Aunt Min (I'm picking on her today) is going to snub...
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mary rosenblum
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Cousin Bill and Andrea
chuckles and says that if they live to be a hundred, they'll..
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mary rosenblum
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never get over Bill's lawsuit
about that right of way, then we know why Min is going to snub Cousin
Bill...
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mary rosenblum
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even if we don't know all the
details.
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mary rosenblum
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A casual reference can give
the reader a lot of clues.
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mary rosenblum
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Your character does not need
to explain if the reader can guess.
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mary rosenblum
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Dialogue is your best tool for
feeding TONS of information to the reader without TELLING.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...you must make that
conversation intrinsic to the story.
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mary rosenblum
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Or it's just 'as we all know'
dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is where you the
author has to work.
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mary rosenblum
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I frequently design an event
so as to elicit dialogue that will enlighten my readers.
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mary rosenblum
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One of the challenges in
writing in the speculative fiction universe or doing mainstream in an
exotic location/culture...
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mary rosenblum
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is that you have to create the
universe in great depth.
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mary rosenblum
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And dialogue is a critical
tool.
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treetopper
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Is this punctuated correctly:
"She did what?" I shrieked.
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mary rosenblum
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I believe so, tree, without
thumbing through Strunk and White. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If you're concerned about your
knowlege of grammar...
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mary rosenblum
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and your not a LR student
(because students get Essentials of English as part of their course)...
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mary rosenblum
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then I'd invest in Strunk and
White's Elements of Style.
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mary rosenblum
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It's small, cheap, and covers
most issues of usage, style, and basic composition.
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janecj333
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I sometimes think there's
nothing worse than when characters talk, but it has nothing to do with
anything...for paragraph after paragraph, or it's all "Hi, how are
you?" "Fine. Did you get the papers I sent you?" "Yes,
filed em." ""So, what are we doing, today?". But then I
read paragraphs with no dialogue, no internal dialogue, just a Viking
sailing around from Norway to Greenland for page after page, slicing,
dicing, and then the story ends..
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mary rosenblum
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Well, those are both extremes
on the spectrum jane.
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mary rosenblum
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And you should avoid both
extremes.
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mary rosenblum
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A story will vary from one end
of that spectrum to the other depending on the nature of the story.
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mary rosenblum
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Some will be more internal,
more plot driven, and they will contain relatively more dialogue and
thought, perhaps, and less action...
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mary rosenblum
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while others will be more plot
driven and may contain more action and less dialogue or simply less
internal monologue.
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mary rosenblum
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You need the balance that
works for your story.
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mary rosenblum
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There is no absolute
proportion here.
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xana
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A problem I've noticed in some
dialogue is that one character is merely a vehicle for the other
character's monologue. I find this annoying.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a matter of
characterization, xana.
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mary rosenblum
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Your primary characters need
to have some development even if they're not the POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Spear carriers are there to
open doors, bring the horse from the stable..
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mary rosenblum
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you don't need as much there.
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mary rosenblum
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But if your character is
directly involved with the plot, that person needs to have some depth or,
as you say,...
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mary rosenblum
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it's like propping a cardboard
image up on your stage. Doesn't add much and looks silly.
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mary rosenblum
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Work on the technique of good
dialogue...
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mary rosenblum
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balancing speech with thought
and visual observation.
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mary rosenblum
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Then use your dialogue to
deepen the characterization through the word choices of your characters...
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mary rosenblum
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and the thoughts of the POV
character.
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mary rosenblum
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Use it to feed the reader
information as your characters make references to backstory events or
offstage events.
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mary rosenblum
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And finally, as they notice
the surroundings and the other characters' body language during
conversations...
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mary rosenblum
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use it to maintain the
setting.
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mary rosenblum
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AND...if you want to show the
reader something that your POV character isn't likely to notice...
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mary rosenblum
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say you really want your
readers to see the various flowers in a garden...
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mary rosenblum
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but your POV wouldn't know a
rose from a dandelion...
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mary rosenblum
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another character can point it
out. "Look at that Queen of Sheba rose. I've never seen one that
big."
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mary rosenblum
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"What rose?" Marl
grumbled. "Keep your mind on what we're supposed to be doing, will
you?"
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geezer
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Off topic. I find myself over
using "as". Could you do a session on bad habits and how to break
them sometime?
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mary rosenblum
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I will, geeze.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, if you KNOW you have
a bad habit like that, use your find feature on your word processor...
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mary rosenblum
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and go find all those 'as'.
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mary rosenblum
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Then fix some of 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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Those 'tropes' crop up all the
time.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us tomorrow for our
casual chat...no topic, just talk...same place, same time.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good week, all! See you
tomorrow.
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