Forum Transcripts

Genres: What are they and why? 11/23/04

Event start time:

Tue Nov 23 12:04:06 2004

Event end time:

Tue Nov 23 13:25:02 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all.

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our regular Tuesday Forum...

mary rosenblum

and yes, we'll have our Friday After Hours this week, even though it's the day after thanksgiving.

bobbi

Hi my first time here

mary rosenblum

Hi, bobbi, and welcome! Your 'question' got to me just fine!

mary rosenblum

Nice to see you.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about genres today, because a lot of students and novice writers are really kind of unsure where their work fits...

mary rosenblum

and it can be a problem.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

tiger lil

Are there clear and defined parameters for defining each genre?

mary rosenblum

Well, they blurr together at the edges, tiger, and what is a fantasy story to one editor is a mainstream magic realism story to another...

mary rosenblum

and what is horror to one editor might be a thriller or a fantasy to another.

mary rosenblum

Stories that straddle two very different genres...such as mystery and SF, or mystery and romance, are called 'cross genre' stories...

mary rosenblum

and that may or may not be a problem.

craig

Is there a specific market for religious writings?

mary rosenblum

There is, Craig.

mary rosenblum

There is a very large and well defined Christian market for both fiction and nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

According to Nick Harris, who has been my guest twice and is a publisher in the field...

mary rosenblum

it is much easier to break into the Christian fiction genre than the Christian nonfiction genre.

bobbi

Can you define genres?

mary rosenblum

That's actually a VERY good question, Bobbi. Thanks.

mary rosenblum

We toss the word around all the time, but what does it really mean?

mary rosenblum

Well, genre is a marketing label only.

mary rosenblum

It simply means -- where does THIS book go on the bookstore shelf?

mary rosenblum

It's a synonym for 'type'.

mary rosenblum

What type of book do you write?

mary rosenblum

What genre do you write?

mary rosenblum

Alas, because marketing and bookstore shelf politics ARE part of the business of writing...the genre label matters.

tiger lil

Do agents represent specific genre?

mary rosenblum

They do indeed, tiger. When you begin to query agents about handling your book length work...

mary rosenblum

do make sure that this particular agent handles a lot of writers who write in the same genre.

mary rosenblum

Agents get to know specific editors personally and while any agent can submit to any editor, the personal contacts shortcut the procedure.

mary rosenblum

Each agent will tend to 'specialize' in one or a few genres...they know those agents, they have lunch a lot, they know who is buying what.

bravo6

Can you tell me approx WHEN Nick Harris was here so I can go look them up n the forum posts? :0D Thanks...

mary rosenblum

Bravo, I think it was early this year. And December the year before that. There aren't that many guest interviews posted in 'Interview Transcripts'...You can skim the list in a minute or so.

margieh

"Bookstore shelf politics" would hold all kinds of potential for a creative mind. :-) What do you mean, exactly?

mary rosenblum

Believe me, margieh, they hold all kinds of headaches for the creative mind, too! LOL

mary rosenblum

Bookstore politics is where your book ends up on the bookstore shelf. Some 'locations' are much more valuable than others and will bring you MUCH more money.

mary rosenblum

Margaret Atwood's novel Oryx and Krake, for example, is classic SF.

mary rosenblum

BUT she is published and shelved as literary fiction...

mary rosenblum

which means she got WAY more money for her book and much better distribution than she would have received even as a top SF writer.

mary rosenblum

This is a case where it was not the content of the book that determined its position on the shelf, but rather the reputation of the author.

tiger lil

Where is the 'shelf' that makes the most money?

mary rosenblum

Romance makes the most money. Thrillers, I believe are next, followed by some of the mystery subgenres...the amateur detective and police procedurals.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

tory

Mary, who "does" the bookstore politics? Pub. companies, agents? It isn't anything WE could affect, is it?

mary rosenblum

Alas, that kind of bookstore politics is mostly affected by the two or three big chains...and they reflect public buying trends.

mary rosenblum

They keep a three year database and watch buying numbers, buying and shelving accordingly, and this affects what publishers publish.

mary rosenblum

Sounds depressingly like a closed loop doesn't it?

mary rosenblum

BUT...that does not mean that the only thing you can write is what is popular now.

mary rosenblum

Harry Potter is a shining example of the book that takes everyone by surprise and publishers know it can happen.

bobbi

Does it take time to find your personal genre? Just started.

mary rosenblum

Generally, my advice to all novice writers is -- write what you read.

mary rosenblum

The reason for this is that every genre has its own 'rules' of style, pace, content, form.

mary rosenblum

And if you read that genre, you 'know' those rules instinctively, and you know what has been on the shelf lately.

mary rosenblum

So you won't make 'genre mistakes'.

mary rosenblum

As you gain experience, you can learn to analyze other genres for style and form and write effectively in those genres...

mary rosenblum

but starting out by writing, say, thrillers because they bring big advances is a good way to see a lot of rejections if you don't read the genre...

mary rosenblum

Thrillers have a form and style and if your by-choice reading is cozy mystery or fantasy, you are unlikely to get that form and style down in a way that will work for the thriller genre.

tiger lil

Romance? Are you talking about fiction? Historical? Thanx

mary rosenblum

Romanc in general is the top seller, tiger. I don't know the breakdown of which subgenres sell best.

mary rosenblum

I would join Romance Writers of America if you plan to write Romance.

mary rosenblum

They allow unpublished members and their Romantic Times is full of inside information on the craft and market.

mary rosenblum

Take advantage of it. It is the only...as far as I know...professional organization that is open to unpublished members.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

ducky

Is paranormal romance still an up and coming thing? Is there still a lot of enthusiasm for it amongst publishers that you know of?

mary rosenblum

I haven't heard that it is waning, ducky, but again...Romantic Times and RWA will know.

rissa

When it seems your genres are blurring together, like you said earlier, how do you know which one is "your" genre

mary rosenblum

Ah, there's the 64 dollar question!

mary rosenblum

You can have, say, romance and mystery in the same book...my mystery series always got reviewed...and quite favorably..in Romantic Times...

mary rosenblum

as a romance, even though it was in the mystery genre. But there was a strong romantic subplot in the series.

mary rosenblum

BUT that romance WAS a subplot, which meant it would not work as a Romance book on the Harlequin/Sillhouette list.

mary rosenblum

If I wanted to do that, the romance would have had to be the main plot.

jr souza jr

I see the term 'cozy mystery' a lot and relaize that it is a type of mystery, what other types are there and what defines those type. Do any of the other mystery types lend themselves to the thriller/suspense genre

mary rosenblum

Suspense and mystery overlap quite heavily, souza. In fact that's a real 'where it fits on the bookshelf' distinction...

mary rosenblum

since most suspense novels are actually mysteries, and so are most thrillers.

mary rosenblum

Greg Bear wrote Darwin's Radio, a thriller that had a near future SF element. Now why didn't he end up getting marketed like Michael Crighton's thrillers that also have SF elements?

mary rosenblum

They books were very similar in style. But he was published by a SF publisher, so his books ended up in the SF shelf space.

mary rosenblum

tiger want to send me the rest of your question?

bobbi

Just started LRWG can I still join RWA

mary rosenblum

Absolutely. You don't even have to write to belong....just enjoy romance. If you want to write it, definitely join. It's not cheap...over 100 per year...but worth it if you are serious, in my opinion.

t green

So...where you're put on the shelf depends on the publisher?

mary rosenblum

It can. In Greg's case, Torr only publishes SF and some mystery.

mary rosenblum

But say he had sold the book to Random House. It might have come out in their 'thriller' imprint...

mary rosenblum

That is what imprints are...the line that tells the reader 'this is SF' or 'This is mystery' or 'This is young adult'.

mary rosenblum

Dell has 'Yearling' it's YA 12 year old reader line.

mary rosenblum

Random House has 'Del Rey' which is its SF line.

mary rosenblum

They have mystery, romance, literary, and many many many other lines. It's one of the biggest publishers in the world.

tiger lil

Are there only 7 plots or themes...someone asked me

mary rosenblum

Oh there are all kinds of those 'there are only seven or three or five' plots. :-) I'ts probably quite true if you deconstruct every story down to its most basic elements.

mary rosenblum

But what that actually MEANS is ...it has ALL been done...and will be done many more times...

mary rosenblum

so don't lose any sleep trying to find something brand new

mary rosenblum

That is simply not important.

mary rosenblum

ALL that is important is that YOUR story engage the reader...

mary rosenblum

even if other similar stories have been published. You do it your way and it's new, fresh, and your own.

bravo6

I've heard it said that there are no new plots. Shakspear covered them all. All we are doing is rewriting a plot around a new story.

mary rosenblum

But that's what writing is all about, Bravo.

mary rosenblum

It's not about a new plot. Why do some stories last forever in your mind? Is it the plot you never saw before?

mary rosenblum

Or is it the reality of the world, the people who are REAL to you, their lives, their adventures...

mary rosenblum

THAT Is what makes a story matter to the reader.

mary rosenblum

One of my favorite workshop exercises is to give every student the exact same story to write.

mary rosenblum

You would be AMAZED at how different the finished stories are!

mary rosenblum

You could sell every one to the same magazine with no competition between them.

mary rosenblum

This is why only really new writers worry about someone stealing their 'ideas'.

mary rosenblum

The idea is simply not important. It is what you DO with it.

bravo6

What is "over the transom"? Sorry for the off topic.

mary rosenblum

Not at all, bravo. :-)

mary rosenblum

Over the transom is the term for 'unsolicited submission'.

mary rosenblum

It meant the author tossed the ms 'over the transom' instead of delivering it through the door (ie through an agent).

mary rosenblum

It now means an unsolicited or unagented submission.

mary rosenblum

And it is only possible in the small presses or SF , pretty much.

mary rosenblum

And the SF houses are starting to move to agented work only, merely to cut down on the response time.

bobbi

Where do you do workshops?

mary rosenblum

Mostly at writers conferences, bobbi.

mary rosenblum

I'm sure I'll be participating in the Norwescon writers workshop in March. :-)

mary rosenblum

Since I'm a guest there and said I'd be happy to...

bravo6

Are you aware of any Christian writers' conferences?

mary rosenblum

There are many. Check shawguides.com for listings.

mary rosenblum

Or google them.

rissa

So is it best to stick with one genre?

mary rosenblum

Not at all, rissa.

mary rosenblum

Actually, if you are planning on making a reasonable income writing fiction you are very wise to write in multiple genres.

mary rosenblum

BUT...when you are trying that first novel and learning your craft as you go...

mary rosenblum

you will have a much better chance of writing a saleable first novel if you write in the genre you read in.

margieh

If your ms (manuscript) crosses two genres in a strong, obvious way (you were talking about your mystery series) did you plot them separatedly so that both elements were strong or did the story just happen that way?

mary rosenblum

They story just happened that way, margieh. As I said, I don't have nearly enough romance in that series to sell it to a romance publisher...

mary rosenblum

I was focusing on the mystery genre.

mary rosenblum

Generally one 'genre' theme is going to dominate the book.

mary rosenblum

Where writers DO run into trouble is when two genres exist in the book and neither dominates the book.

mary rosenblum

THEN...you can be too weak for either genre and have trouble selling.

jr souza jr

Engaging the reader is paramount, take Ayn Rand's book Fountainhead; writted over 70 years ago and NEVER been out of print. A theme, plot and genre I never thought would engrosse me but yet I could not put it down until I finished reading all 900+ pages.

mary rosenblum

That's it. Good writing is what counts. A strong idea is nice, too, but essentially that engaging universe is what readers want.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

rissa

You were talking earlier about the different publishers for different genres. If you decide to write different genres, will it work if you have one publisher?

mary rosenblum

Every book goes to the publisher who is most likely to publish it, rissa.

mary rosenblum

When I finished my YA novel, it went to Viking. Putnam did my mystery series, but the editor of the Viking YA line was the best choice for marketing that...

mary rosenblum

You can have several different publishers at one time.

mary rosenblum

Now often, publishers will want 'first refusal rights' on the next book in that genre you write...

mary rosenblum

but they don't try to make claims for any other book you write...

mary rosenblum

because it would go to a different imprint anyway.

bravo6

what about different agents for different genres?

mary rosenblum

That is something you would have to negotiate when you signed with an agent, bravo.

mary rosenblum

In my experience, agents sign you as an exclusive client...that means that agent handles ALL your book length work...

mary rosenblum

but Jeff Herman, my recent agent guest...who DOES handle Christian nonfiction, by the way...told me he works on a book by book contract.

mary rosenblum

So he might handle your Christian nonfiction, but have no interest in handling your mystery.

mary rosenblum

If you plan to write in multiple genres, you'll need to bring that up to your agent if that agent does not have clients in the other genre.

mary rosenblum

Now my agent will not 'share' a writer. A friend of mine who also has her asked her because she has a mainstream novel...a literary mainstream novel...

mary rosenblum

and my agent doesn't handle literary mainstream often.

mary rosenblum

But her agreement is 'all or nothing'. So my friend will have to decide which agent is going to do better for her in the long run.

bobbi

How did you know you were a writer Mary?

mary rosenblum

I never KNEW I was a writer, Bobbi. In fact a lot of people told me to forget it because fiction writers were special people and clearly I was not special. But you know what? I just wrote...and wrote...and wrote...

mary rosenblum

because I can't NOT write! And that makes me a writer. :-) I guess.

tiger lil

How long do you work on a book before publishing?

mary rosenblum

Well, in the traditional publishing biz, there is at least a year between acceptance of your ms and the book on the shelf...

mary rosenblum

but you won't work on it every day for a year!

mary rosenblum

You'll get your ms back with a list of 'editor questions' and the editor's changes.

mary rosenblum

Editors line edit...tighten up your prose...and ask you to make content changes.

mary rosenblum

Once you've finished that process, you'll get back the copyedited ms to make sure the copyeditor didn't mess anything up, and finally, you'll review the page proofs or bound galleys to check for typos...

mary rosenblum

And then you'll get cover flats, which are the actual covers that will go on the bound book...

mary rosenblum

and finally it will appear on the shelves.

tiger lil

You made me laugh with that answer...thanks

mary rosenblum

The 'know you're a writer' answer, tiger?

mary rosenblum

Well, it's a question that makes me bristle...not at Bobbi, but the people who make it necessary to ask that questoin.

mary rosenblum

There IS an assumption that you are born with a golden W on your forehead if you are destined to be a Writer.

mary rosenblum

Never found anything but acne on my forehead, personally.

mary rosenblum

And that went away years ago, LOL

jackie7777

page proofs - bound galleys???

mary rosenblum

Page proofs are the pages set in the typeface and style of the published book. They're just not trimmed and bound yet, so a mass market paperback will still have a 8.5 x 11 page...

mary rosenblum

with a lot of margin. But it lets you see what the finished page will be, and you get to hunt the typos.

mary rosenblum

The bound galleys are not done by every publisher...but many put a 'mock up' cover on a slightly larger version of the final book...

mary rosenblum

and ship it out bound to reviewers. If you get those copies (and I have a set of my mystery bound gallies) KEEP them. If you ever get at all famous they will be...

mary rosenblum

very pricey collectors items.

mary rosenblum

The covers are different from the final books and they are in 'trade paperback' size rather than 'mass market' size.

bobbi

How do I know if I am really talented to write?

mary rosenblum

Oh, sweetheart, we all ask that question and we all..every ONE of us...me included...wanted SO much for someone to answer it.

mary rosenblum

And you know what? There IS no answer. There is not 'this is enough...that is not enough'...line.

mary rosenblum

Everyone is to a greater or lesser extent a storyteller and the rest is learning craft.

mary rosenblum

If writing matters to you, you just keep doing it, and if being good matters to you, you notice what is good when you read it...

mary rosenblum

and you try and figure out why it doesn't work that way when YOU do the same thing...

mary rosenblum

and you write and write and write...

mary rosenblum

and slowly, surely, you get better.

mary rosenblum

That's all there is to it...a massive case of 'I'm GOING to do that' stubbornness.

mary rosenblum

It's not innate talent that determines your publication success or failure...

mary rosenblum

it's how well you tell a story...and the more you write the better you get at telling that story.

jr souza jr

I believe we all have the talent to write and wrting just to write is like rehearsing for an actor. The thing we are looking for is for people (readers) to come to our stage. So believe you have the talent and write until you audiance had to see everything you do.

mary rosenblum

And it's like playing the piano.

mary rosenblum

When Beethoven first sat down at the piano he did NOT play a sonata.

jan33

If a book is based on a true story how does this differ from a purely fictional account?

mary rosenblum

It's a nonfictional personal narrative, janp.

mary rosenblum

You look for publishers who publish that sort of work...

mary rosenblum

browse the bookstore for similar types of 'personal story' books and see who published 'em.

mary rosenblum

It is a very large and potentially lucrative genre. MUCH better advances than fiction and much better sales, generally.

jan33

I am thinking more about a book involving a crime.

mary rosenblum

Well if YOU are involved personally, go with the personal narrative nonfiction publishers.

mary rosenblum

If you are NOT personally involved in the crime, True Crime is a genre.

curseofthe44

Can you explain the difference between erotica and pornography and romance?

mary rosenblum

It's a matter of shading, curse, and yes, they do overlap.

mary rosenblum

In fact, the romance imprints will tell you in their guidelines exactly how much sexual content is desirable or allowed...

mary rosenblum

and some of the imprints do edge over strongly into the erotica category.

mary rosenblum

Erotica is a market that tends to blend into the literary and mainstream markets...

mary rosenblum

and features pretty explicit sexuality, but is strongly character based. I have a couple of students who write VERY good erotica, and it can get you mainstream publiation.

mary rosenblum

Porn is just...welll...for arousal purposes only, no characters required, just a lot of detail. Doesn't appeal to me...not much there literarily.

mary rosenblum

Pretty crude in my opinion...

mary rosenblum

not something you want your name associated with as a writer.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Erotica is a slippery genre like Magic Realism.

mary rosenblum

I've had pieces that published in mainstream anthologies that could easily have been published in a fantasy magazine.

curseofthe44

I've read some erotica that seems more pornographic than romantic. Does it just come down to reading samples and deciding what they want, or is there actually guidelines?

mary rosenblum

As with mainstream/magic realism, the dividing line is very blurry. Mostly it is the editor's own taste that determines if your piece is erotica or porn, magic realism or fantasy.

bobbi

Are there support writing groups?

mary rosenblum

There are many writing groups out there, bobbi. Just make sure that the group you join makes you feel better about what you do and not worse.

mary rosenblum

There are some that have begun here online, at LR, and meet on the website.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes groups put up ads at independent bookstores, or those bookstore owners may know of some local groups.

dbamarsha

You might check with you local library as well.

mary rosenblum

Good point, marsha. A lot of groups meet in their local library meeting room...if they have one.

mary rosenblum

The main thing with genres is that it does pay to know where your book lies...

mary rosenblum

because it will save you from sending it to the wrong agent or editor and getting yet another of those depressing rejection slips!

mary rosenblum

For example, I wrote a mystery before my recent series, and it didn't sell. Wasn't until after I'd written mystery that I realized I had straddled the 'amateur detective' and 'cozy' subgenres...

mary rosenblum

and would have to change the book to fit one or the other. Because it had elements of both...

mary rosenblum

it made the book less than ideal for either.

mary rosenblum

AS I said, it's a matter of marketing...

mary rosenblum

but in some instances, such as romance, it really does matter.

mary rosenblum

Your romance plot MUST dominate there.

mary rosenblum

Any other off topic questions, as long as I'm here?

mary rosenblum

Well, I think I'll call our Oregon Hour over and get back to working on the novel course!

mary rosenblum

I'll be here for our casual chat tomorrow morning, same time as today. :-)

speckledorf

Just a bit if info...I have the Marshall Plan for Novel Writing book..it lists 13 main genres with all the subgenres...33 for SF and 24 for romance...

mary rosenblum

I reviewed that book as a textbook for the novel course, speck. It's pretty good...

mary rosenblum

but those genres are not gospel...as four different editors and they'll give you four different answers about the existing genres...

mary rosenblum

and subgenres!

dbamarsha

His workbook is good as well. Lots of worksheets you can use.

mary rosenblum

It's a good book. Just wasn't what we needed, but worth buying.

mary rosenblum

Remember...

mary rosenblum

this is not an exact science...writing and publishing.

mary rosenblum

When you start looking at things like 'genres'...you'll hear different specifics from different people...

mary rosenblum

mainly, use the bookstore for research.

mary rosenblum

What is on that shelf that is similar to your book? Who publislhed it? what is the imprint? Okay, send it there.

speckledorf

I just thought it was kinda cool to see it broken down like that...

mary rosenblum

Yep...although a lot of those get grouped together.

mary rosenblum

Well, see you all tomorrow, and if you're going to be on the road, drive safe!

mary rosenblum

And watch out for those who don't!

mary rosenblum

My puppy is lying on her back on my feet with all four of her feet in the air and snoring. :-)

mary rosenblum

Happy Thanksgiving, all!

mary rosenblum

oh yes...

mary rosenblum

and remember that all the family Thanksgiving squabbles can make a wonderful bit of fiction or personal narrative later... take mental notes! :-)

mary rosenblum

Bye!

 

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