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mary rosenblum
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Hello, all.
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our regular Tuesday
Forum...
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mary rosenblum
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and yes, we'll have our Friday
After Hours this week, even though it's the day after thanksgiving.
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bobbi
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Hi my first time here
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mary rosenblum
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Hi, bobbi, and welcome! Your
'question' got to me just fine!
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mary rosenblum
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Nice to see you.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about genres
today, because a lot of students and novice writers are really kind of
unsure where their work fits...
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mary rosenblum
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and it can be a problem.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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tiger lil
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Are there clear and defined
parameters for defining each genre?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, they blurr together at
the edges, tiger, and what is a fantasy story to one editor is a mainstream
magic realism story to another...
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mary rosenblum
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and what is horror to one
editor might be a thriller or a fantasy to another.
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mary rosenblum
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Stories that straddle two very
different genres...such as mystery and SF, or mystery and romance, are
called 'cross genre' stories...
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mary rosenblum
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and that may or may not be a
problem.
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craig
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Is there a specific market for
religious writings?
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mary rosenblum
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There is, Craig.
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mary rosenblum
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There is a very large and well
defined Christian market for both fiction and nonfiction.
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mary rosenblum
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According to Nick Harris, who
has been my guest twice and is a publisher in the field...
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mary rosenblum
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it is much easier to break
into the Christian fiction genre than the Christian nonfiction genre.
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bobbi
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Can you define genres?
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mary rosenblum
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That's actually a VERY good
question, Bobbi. Thanks.
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mary rosenblum
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We toss the word around all
the time, but what does it really mean?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, genre is a marketing
label only.
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mary rosenblum
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It simply means -- where does
THIS book go on the bookstore shelf?
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mary rosenblum
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It's a synonym for 'type'.
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mary rosenblum
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What type of book do you
write?
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mary rosenblum
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What genre do you write?
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mary rosenblum
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Alas, because marketing and
bookstore shelf politics ARE part of the business of writing...the genre
label matters.
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tiger lil
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Do agents represent specific
genre?
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mary rosenblum
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They do indeed, tiger. When
you begin to query agents about handling your book length work...
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mary rosenblum
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do make sure that this
particular agent handles a lot of writers who write in the same genre.
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mary rosenblum
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Agents get to know specific
editors personally and while any agent can submit to any editor, the
personal contacts shortcut the procedure.
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mary rosenblum
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Each agent will tend to
'specialize' in one or a few genres...they know those agents, they have
lunch a lot, they know who is buying what.
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bravo6
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Can you tell me approx WHEN Nick
Harris was here so I can go look them up n the forum posts? :0D Thanks...
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mary rosenblum
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Bravo, I think it was early
this year. And December the year before that. There aren't that many guest
interviews posted in 'Interview Transcripts'...You can skim the list in a
minute or so.
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margieh
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"Bookstore shelf
politics" would hold all kinds of potential for a creative mind. :-)
What do you mean, exactly?
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mary rosenblum
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Believe me, margieh, they hold
all kinds of headaches for the creative mind, too! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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Bookstore politics is where
your book ends up on the bookstore shelf. Some 'locations' are much more
valuable than others and will bring you MUCH more money.
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mary rosenblum
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Margaret Atwood's novel Oryx
and Krake, for example, is classic SF.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT she is published and
shelved as literary fiction...
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mary rosenblum
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which means she got WAY more
money for her book and much better distribution than she would have
received even as a top SF writer.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a case where it was
not the content of the book that determined its position on the shelf, but
rather the reputation of the author.
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tiger lil
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Where is the 'shelf' that makes
the most money?
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mary rosenblum
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Romance makes the most money. Thrillers,
I believe are next, followed by some of the mystery subgenres...the amateur
detective and police procedurals.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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tory
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Mary, who "does" the
bookstore politics? Pub. companies, agents? It isn't anything WE could
affect, is it?
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mary rosenblum
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Alas, that kind of bookstore
politics is mostly affected by the two or three big chains...and they
reflect public buying trends.
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mary rosenblum
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They keep a three year
database and watch buying numbers, buying and shelving accordingly, and
this affects what publishers publish.
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mary rosenblum
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Sounds depressingly like a
closed loop doesn't it?
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...that does not mean that
the only thing you can write is what is popular now.
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mary rosenblum
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Harry Potter is a shining
example of the book that takes everyone by surprise and publishers know it
can happen.
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bobbi
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Does it take time to find your
personal genre? Just started.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, my advice to all
novice writers is -- write what you read.
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mary rosenblum
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The reason for this is that
every genre has its own 'rules' of style, pace, content, form.
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mary rosenblum
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And if you read that genre,
you 'know' those rules instinctively, and you know what has been on the
shelf lately.
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mary rosenblum
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So you won't make 'genre
mistakes'.
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mary rosenblum
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As you gain experience, you
can learn to analyze other genres for style and form and write effectively
in those genres...
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mary rosenblum
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but starting out by writing,
say, thrillers because they bring big advances is a good way to see a lot
of rejections if you don't read the genre...
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mary rosenblum
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Thrillers have a form and
style and if your by-choice reading is cozy mystery or fantasy, you are
unlikely to get that form and style down in a way that will work for the
thriller genre.
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tiger lil
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Romance? Are you talking about
fiction? Historical? Thanx
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mary rosenblum
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Romanc in general is the top
seller, tiger. I don't know the breakdown of which subgenres sell best.
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mary rosenblum
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I would join Romance Writers
of America if you plan to write Romance.
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mary rosenblum
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They allow unpublished members
and their Romantic Times is full of inside information on the craft and
market.
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mary rosenblum
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Take advantage of it. It is
the only...as far as I know...professional organization that is open to
unpublished members.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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ducky
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Is paranormal romance still an
up and coming thing? Is there still a lot of enthusiasm for it amongst
publishers that you know of?
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mary rosenblum
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I haven't heard that it is
waning, ducky, but again...Romantic Times and RWA will know.
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rissa
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When it seems your genres are
blurring together, like you said earlier, how do you know which one is
"your" genre
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, there's the 64 dollar
question!
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mary rosenblum
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You can have, say, romance and
mystery in the same book...my mystery series always got reviewed...and
quite favorably..in Romantic Times...
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mary rosenblum
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as a romance, even though it
was in the mystery genre. But there was a strong romantic subplot in the
series.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT that romance WAS a
subplot, which meant it would not work as a Romance book on the
Harlequin/Sillhouette list.
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mary rosenblum
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If I wanted to do that, the
romance would have had to be the main plot.
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jr souza jr
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I see the term 'cozy mystery' a
lot and relaize that it is a type of mystery, what other types are there
and what defines those type. Do any of the other mystery types lend
themselves to the thriller/suspense genre
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mary rosenblum
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Suspense and mystery overlap
quite heavily, souza. In fact that's a real 'where it fits on the
bookshelf' distinction...
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mary rosenblum
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since most suspense novels are
actually mysteries, and so are most thrillers.
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mary rosenblum
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Greg Bear wrote Darwin's
Radio, a thriller that had a near future SF element. Now why didn't he end
up getting marketed like Michael Crighton's thrillers that also have SF
elements?
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mary rosenblum
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They books were very similar
in style. But he was published by a SF publisher, so his books ended up in
the SF shelf space.
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mary rosenblum
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tiger want to send me the rest
of your question?
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bobbi
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Just started LRWG can I still
join RWA
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mary rosenblum
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Absolutely. You don't even
have to write to belong....just enjoy romance. If you want to write it,
definitely join. It's not cheap...over 100 per year...but worth it if you
are serious, in my opinion.
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t green
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So...where you're put on the
shelf depends on the publisher?
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mary rosenblum
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It can. In Greg's case, Torr
only publishes SF and some mystery.
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mary rosenblum
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But say he had sold the book
to Random House. It might have come out in their 'thriller' imprint...
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mary rosenblum
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That is what imprints
are...the line that tells the reader 'this is SF' or 'This is mystery' or
'This is young adult'.
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mary rosenblum
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Dell has 'Yearling' it's YA 12
year old reader line.
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mary rosenblum
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Random House has 'Del Rey'
which is its SF line.
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mary rosenblum
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They have mystery, romance,
literary, and many many many other lines. It's one of the biggest
publishers in the world.
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tiger lil
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Are there only 7 plots or
themes...someone asked me
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mary rosenblum
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Oh there are all kinds of
those 'there are only seven or three or five' plots. :-) I'ts probably
quite true if you deconstruct every story down to its most basic elements.
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mary rosenblum
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But what that actually MEANS
is ...it has ALL been done...and will be done many more times...
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mary rosenblum
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so don't lose any sleep trying
to find something brand new
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mary rosenblum
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That is simply not important.
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mary rosenblum
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ALL that is important is that
YOUR story engage the reader...
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mary rosenblum
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even if other similar stories
have been published. You do it your way and it's new, fresh, and your own.
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bravo6
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I've heard it said that there
are no new plots. Shakspear covered them all. All we are doing is rewriting
a plot around a new story.
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mary rosenblum
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But that's what writing is all
about, Bravo.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not about a new plot. Why
do some stories last forever in your mind? Is it the plot you never saw
before?
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mary rosenblum
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Or is it the reality of the
world, the people who are REAL to you, their lives, their adventures...
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mary rosenblum
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THAT Is what makes a story
matter to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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One of my favorite workshop
exercises is to give every student the exact same story to write.
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mary rosenblum
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You would be AMAZED at how
different the finished stories are!
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mary rosenblum
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You could sell every one to
the same magazine with no competition between them.
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mary rosenblum
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This is why only really new
writers worry about someone stealing their 'ideas'.
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mary rosenblum
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The idea is simply not
important. It is what you DO with it.
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bravo6
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What is "over the
transom"? Sorry for the off topic.
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mary rosenblum
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Not at all, bravo. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Over the transom is the term
for 'unsolicited submission'.
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mary rosenblum
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It meant the author tossed the
ms 'over the transom' instead of delivering it through the door (ie through
an agent).
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mary rosenblum
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It now means an unsolicited or
unagented submission.
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mary rosenblum
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And it is only possible in the
small presses or SF , pretty much.
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mary rosenblum
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And the SF houses are starting
to move to agented work only, merely to cut down on the response time.
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bobbi
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Where do you do workshops?
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mary rosenblum
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Mostly at writers conferences,
bobbi.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm sure I'll be participating
in the Norwescon writers workshop in March. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Since I'm a guest there and
said I'd be happy to...
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bravo6
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Are you aware of any Christian
writers' conferences?
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mary rosenblum
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There are many. Check
shawguides.com for listings.
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mary rosenblum
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Or google them.
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rissa
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So is it best to stick with one
genre?
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mary rosenblum
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Not at all, rissa.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, if you are planning
on making a reasonable income writing fiction you are very wise to write in
multiple genres.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...when you are trying that
first novel and learning your craft as you go...
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mary rosenblum
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you will have a much better
chance of writing a saleable first novel if you write in the genre you read
in.
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margieh
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If your ms (manuscript) crosses
two genres in a strong, obvious way (you were talking about your mystery
series) did you plot them separatedly so that both elements were strong or
did the story just happen that way?
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mary rosenblum
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They story just happened that
way, margieh. As I said, I don't have nearly enough romance in that series
to sell it to a romance publisher...
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mary rosenblum
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I was focusing on the mystery
genre.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally one 'genre' theme is
going to dominate the book.
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mary rosenblum
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Where writers DO run into
trouble is when two genres exist in the book and neither dominates the
book.
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mary rosenblum
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THEN...you can be too weak for
either genre and have trouble selling.
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jr souza jr
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Engaging the reader is
paramount, take Ayn Rand's book Fountainhead; writted over 70 years ago and
NEVER been out of print. A theme, plot and genre I never thought would
engrosse me but yet I could not put it down until I finished reading all
900+ pages.
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mary rosenblum
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That's it. Good writing is
what counts. A strong idea is nice, too, but essentially that engaging
universe is what readers want.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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rissa
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You were talking earlier about
the different publishers for different genres. If you decide to write
different genres, will it work if you have one publisher?
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mary rosenblum
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Every book goes to the
publisher who is most likely to publish it, rissa.
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mary rosenblum
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When I finished my YA novel, it
went to Viking. Putnam did my mystery series, but the editor of the Viking
YA line was the best choice for marketing that...
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mary rosenblum
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You can have several different
publishers at one time.
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mary rosenblum
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Now often, publishers will
want 'first refusal rights' on the next book in that genre you write...
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mary rosenblum
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but they don't try to make
claims for any other book you write...
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mary rosenblum
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because it would go to a
different imprint anyway.
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bravo6
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what about different agents for
different genres?
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mary rosenblum
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That is something you would
have to negotiate when you signed with an agent, bravo.
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mary rosenblum
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In my experience, agents sign
you as an exclusive client...that means that agent handles ALL your book
length work...
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mary rosenblum
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but Jeff Herman, my recent
agent guest...who DOES handle Christian nonfiction, by the way...told me he
works on a book by book contract.
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mary rosenblum
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So he might handle your
Christian nonfiction, but have no interest in handling your mystery.
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mary rosenblum
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If you plan to write in
multiple genres, you'll need to bring that up to your agent if that agent
does not have clients in the other genre.
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mary rosenblum
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Now my agent will not 'share'
a writer. A friend of mine who also has her asked her because she has a
mainstream novel...a literary mainstream novel...
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mary rosenblum
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and my agent doesn't handle
literary mainstream often.
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mary rosenblum
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But her agreement is 'all or
nothing'. So my friend will have to decide which agent is going to do
better for her in the long run.
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bobbi
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How did you know you were a
writer Mary?
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mary rosenblum
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I never KNEW I was a writer,
Bobbi. In fact a lot of people told me to forget it because fiction writers
were special people and clearly I was not special. But you know what? I
just wrote...and wrote...and wrote...
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mary rosenblum
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because I can't NOT write! And
that makes me a writer. :-) I guess.
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tiger lil
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How long do you work on a book
before publishing?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, in the traditional
publishing biz, there is at least a year between acceptance of your ms and
the book on the shelf...
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mary rosenblum
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but you won't work on it every
day for a year!
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mary rosenblum
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You'll get your ms back with a
list of 'editor questions' and the editor's changes.
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mary rosenblum
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Editors line edit...tighten up
your prose...and ask you to make content changes.
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mary rosenblum
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Once you've finished that
process, you'll get back the copyedited ms to make sure the copyeditor
didn't mess anything up, and finally, you'll review the page proofs or
bound galleys to check for typos...
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mary rosenblum
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And then you'll get cover
flats, which are the actual covers that will go on the bound book...
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mary rosenblum
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and finally it will appear on
the shelves.
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tiger lil
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You made me laugh with that
answer...thanks
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mary rosenblum
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The 'know you're a writer'
answer, tiger?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it's a question that
makes me bristle...not at Bobbi, but the people who make it necessary to
ask that questoin.
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mary rosenblum
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There IS an assumption that
you are born with a golden W on your forehead if you are destined to be a
Writer.
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mary rosenblum
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Never found anything but acne
on my forehead, personally.
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mary rosenblum
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And that went away years ago,
LOL
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jackie7777
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page proofs - bound galleys???
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mary rosenblum
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Page proofs are the pages set
in the typeface and style of the published book. They're just not trimmed
and bound yet, so a mass market paperback will still have a 8.5 x 11
page...
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mary rosenblum
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with a lot of margin. But it
lets you see what the finished page will be, and you get to hunt the typos.
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mary rosenblum
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The bound galleys are not done
by every publisher...but many put a 'mock up' cover on a slightly larger
version of the final book...
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mary rosenblum
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and ship it out bound to
reviewers. If you get those copies (and I have a set of my mystery bound
gallies) KEEP them. If you ever get at all famous they will be...
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mary rosenblum
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very pricey collectors items.
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mary rosenblum
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The covers are different from
the final books and they are in 'trade paperback' size rather than 'mass
market' size.
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bobbi
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How do I know if I am really
talented to write?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, sweetheart, we all ask
that question and we all..every ONE of us...me included...wanted SO much
for someone to answer it.
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mary rosenblum
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And you know what? There IS no
answer. There is not 'this is enough...that is not enough'...line.
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mary rosenblum
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Everyone is to a greater or
lesser extent a storyteller and the rest is learning craft.
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mary rosenblum
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If writing matters to you, you
just keep doing it, and if being good matters to you, you notice what is
good when you read it...
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mary rosenblum
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and you try and figure out why
it doesn't work that way when YOU do the same thing...
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mary rosenblum
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and you write and write and
write...
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mary rosenblum
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and slowly, surely, you get
better.
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mary rosenblum
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That's all there is to it...a
massive case of 'I'm GOING to do that' stubbornness.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not innate talent that
determines your publication success or failure...
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mary rosenblum
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it's how well you tell a
story...and the more you write the better you get at telling that story.
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jr souza jr
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I believe we all have the talent
to write and wrting just to write is like rehearsing for an actor. The
thing we are looking for is for people (readers) to come to our stage. So
believe you have the talent and write until you audiance had to see
everything you do.
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mary rosenblum
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And it's like playing the
piano.
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mary rosenblum
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When Beethoven first sat down
at the piano he did NOT play a sonata.
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jan33
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If a book is based on a true
story how does this differ from a purely fictional account?
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mary rosenblum
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It's a nonfictional personal
narrative, janp.
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mary rosenblum
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You look for publishers who
publish that sort of work...
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mary rosenblum
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browse the bookstore for
similar types of 'personal story' books and see who published 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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It is a very large and
potentially lucrative genre. MUCH better advances than fiction and much
better sales, generally.
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jan33
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I am thinking more about a book
involving a crime.
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mary rosenblum
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Well if YOU are involved
personally, go with the personal narrative nonfiction publishers.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are NOT personally
involved in the crime, True Crime is a genre.
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curseofthe44
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Can you explain the difference
between erotica and pornography and romance?
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mary rosenblum
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It's a matter of shading,
curse, and yes, they do overlap.
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mary rosenblum
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In fact, the romance imprints
will tell you in their guidelines exactly how much sexual content is
desirable or allowed...
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mary rosenblum
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and some of the imprints do
edge over strongly into the erotica category.
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mary rosenblum
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Erotica is a market that tends
to blend into the literary and mainstream markets...
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mary rosenblum
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and features pretty explicit
sexuality, but is strongly character based. I have a couple of students who
write VERY good erotica, and it can get you mainstream publiation.
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mary rosenblum
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Porn is just...welll...for
arousal purposes only, no characters required, just a lot of detail.
Doesn't appeal to me...not much there literarily.
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mary rosenblum
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Pretty crude in my opinion...
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mary rosenblum
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not something you want your
name associated with as a writer.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about genre today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can
also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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Erotica is a slippery genre
like Magic Realism.
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mary rosenblum
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I've had pieces that published
in mainstream anthologies that could easily have been published in a
fantasy magazine.
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curseofthe44
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I've read some erotica that
seems more pornographic than romantic. Does it just come down to reading
samples and deciding what they want, or is there actually guidelines?
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mary rosenblum
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As with mainstream/magic
realism, the dividing line is very blurry. Mostly it is the editor's own
taste that determines if your piece is erotica or porn, magic realism or
fantasy.
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bobbi
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Are there support writing
groups?
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mary rosenblum
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There are many writing groups
out there, bobbi. Just make sure that the group you join makes you feel
better about what you do and not worse.
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mary rosenblum
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There are some that have begun
here online, at LR, and meet on the website.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes groups put up ads at
independent bookstores, or those bookstore owners may know of some local
groups.
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dbamarsha
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You might check with you local
library as well.
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mary rosenblum
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Good point, marsha. A lot of
groups meet in their local library meeting room...if they have one.
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mary rosenblum
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The main thing with genres is
that it does pay to know where your book lies...
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mary rosenblum
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because it will save you from
sending it to the wrong agent or editor and getting yet another of those
depressing rejection slips!
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mary rosenblum
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For example, I wrote a mystery
before my recent series, and it didn't sell. Wasn't until after I'd written
mystery that I realized I had straddled the 'amateur detective' and 'cozy'
subgenres...
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mary rosenblum
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and would have to change the
book to fit one or the other. Because it had elements of both...
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mary rosenblum
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it made the book less than
ideal for either.
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mary rosenblum
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AS I said, it's a matter of
marketing...
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mary rosenblum
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but in some instances, such as
romance, it really does matter.
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mary rosenblum
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Your romance plot MUST
dominate there.
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mary rosenblum
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Any other off topic questions,
as long as I'm here?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I think I'll call our
Oregon Hour over and get back to working on the novel course!
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mary rosenblum
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I'll be here for our casual
chat tomorrow morning, same time as today. :-)
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speckledorf
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Just a bit if info...I have the
Marshall Plan for Novel Writing book..it lists 13 main genres with all the
subgenres...33 for SF and 24 for romance...
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mary rosenblum
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I reviewed that book as a
textbook for the novel course, speck. It's pretty good...
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mary rosenblum
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but those genres are not
gospel...as four different editors and they'll give you four different
answers about the existing genres...
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mary rosenblum
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and subgenres!
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dbamarsha
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His workbook is good as well.
Lots of worksheets you can use.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good book. Just wasn't
what we needed, but worth buying.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...
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mary rosenblum
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this is not an exact
science...writing and publishing.
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mary rosenblum
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When you start looking at
things like 'genres'...you'll hear different specifics from different
people...
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mary rosenblum
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mainly, use the bookstore for
research.
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mary rosenblum
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What is on that shelf that is
similar to your book? Who publislhed it? what is the imprint? Okay, send it
there.
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speckledorf
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I just thought it was kinda cool
to see it broken down like that...
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mary rosenblum
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Yep...although a lot of those
get grouped together.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, see you all tomorrow,
and if you're going to be on the road, drive safe!
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mary rosenblum
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And watch out for those who
don't!
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mary rosenblum
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My puppy is lying on her back
on my feet with all four of her feet in the air and snoring. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Happy Thanksgiving, all!
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mary rosenblum
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oh yes...
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mary rosenblum
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and remember that all the
family Thanksgiving squabbles can make a wonderful bit of fiction or
personal narrative later... take mental notes! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Bye!
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