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mary rosenblum
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Hello all.
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t green
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HI mary!! I got good news...
received an acceptance letter from "Nature Friend Magazine" for
an article i sent in.
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mary rosenblum
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Wow, way to go, T!
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mary rosenblum
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Good for you.
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mary rosenblum
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Glad you all could make it.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about internal
POV tonight. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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ashton
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Getting right to internal
POV...when should you italicize?
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, my favorite topic. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of publishers put direct
thought into italic.
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mary rosenblum
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I HATE that.
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mary rosenblum
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We hear italic as
'funny'...either a shout, or a non-human voice.
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mary rosenblum
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You do not need to do that.
The thought should be perfectly clear from the context of the scene.
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mary rosenblum
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If I find that a publisher is
adamant about italic for direct through, I simply stop using direct
thought...
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mary rosenblum
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unless absolutely necessary.
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mary rosenblum
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I find it works better to
paraphrase thoughts anyway...
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mary rosenblum
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since we don't think in
dialogue but that is what we write as 'thoughts'.
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randi-lee
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examples of direct thoughts
would be what as opposed to indirect thoughts. I rather think that all
though it direct.
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mary rosenblum
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Let me show you....because direct
thought is clunky if it is more than a couple of words...
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mary rosenblum
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and when you add italic it
sounds VERY phony.
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mary rosenblum
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Before I show you, think about
the way you think. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Rarely...for most people...do
you think in complete sentences.
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mary rosenblum
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Mostly it's fragments of
speech, images, non-verbal memories.
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mary rosenblum
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Try putting THAT on the page
directly!
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mary rosenblum
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But instead writers use
dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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Gee, I think I'm going to make
a sandwich. Shall I use white bread or wheat? Do I want lettuce. Hmm...how
about some pickles.
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah. Right.
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mary rosenblum
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You probably pick up the loaf
of white bread, look at the wheat, put down the white, think 'pickles'
maybe, with a flash of salivation. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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See what I mean?
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ashton
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Uh,oh...I'm in trouble, Mary. I
DO think in complete sentences a lot of the time.
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mary rosenblum
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That's when you really are
talking to yourself.
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mary rosenblum
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I do it to.
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mary rosenblum
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I want to work on this story.
No, we've gotta start bringing in wood tomorrow, I'd better go clear the
woods road instead.
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mary rosenblum
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But I am consciously doing
that.
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mary rosenblum
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ANd your character can, too.
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mary rosenblum
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But most of our thoughts just
go through out heads.
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redraven
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Realistic stream of
consciousness can be diffcult to follow
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mary rosenblum
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VERY.
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mary rosenblum
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And so you make it easier by
paraphrasing a lot of it...
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mary rosenblum
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and using the character's
vocabulary and voice.
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mary rosenblum
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You create the effect of
overhearing the character's thoughts without trying to do a stream of
consciousness thing.
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gail
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Could you define "direct
thought" for me, please?
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mary rosenblum
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A direct thought is like a
quote, gail. It is exactly what the character is thinking.
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mary rosenblum
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You might consciously think
'Oh no' as the crystal vase topples off the table.
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mary rosenblum
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That is a direct thought.
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mary rosenblum
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Amy turned just as the cat
ricocheted off the table. Oh no! She grabbed for Aunt Girt's vase, but too
late.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh no! is Amy's direct
thought.
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mary rosenblum
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Let me have her worry about
what her Aunt Girt will say and I'll give you indirect thought here.
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mary rosenblum
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Amy stared at the vase.
Cripes. How many times had Aunt G told her the damn vase was priceless? Amy
closed her eyes. What could she tell the old bat when she came over
Tuesday? At the vase cleaners? Loaned to a friend? She winced...
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mary rosenblum
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at the thought of Aunty's
reaction to _that_ one.
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mary rosenblum
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Okay, Cripes is the only
direct thought here.
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mary rosenblum
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This...in her head...would
probably be a series of images, remembered conversational scraps and
sentence fragments.
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mary rosenblum
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It's really narrative of
course, BUT...by using Amy's voice, the effect is of Amy's thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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It is one way to zero the
narrative distance. We are 'overhearing' her think because we are inside
her head.
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mary rosenblum
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She actually thought 'cripes'.
That is direct...which means I am, essentially, 'quoting' her thought.
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mary rosenblum
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The rest I have 'translated'
for you.
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randi-lee
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then if you didn't want it as
direct thought you could say . She grabbed Aunt Gir's vase, but too late.
"Oh now, you bad cat now what will I do." so you can have her
speak her thought.
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mary rosenblum
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Absolutely. And most of the
time, you can use body language or dialogue to convey the character's
thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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And it's usually...not
always...a better choice.
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randi-lee
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so when I talk to myself or
think in direct sentances 99% of the time, then that is indirect thought?
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mary rosenblum
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If your character is really
talking to himself silently...not out loud...
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mary rosenblum
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then it is direct thought
because those words ARE going through your character's head...
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mary rosenblum
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you are not translating
thought into comprehensible English. :-)
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starr r
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But when you're talking to
yourself, it's different than thinking.
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mary rosenblum
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Well it is a conscious
thought, starr, and in dialogue. Then you have the less conscious thoughts,
as I mentioned in the sandwich example.
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mary rosenblum
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I might look at a loaf of
bread and not think a single word...
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mary rosenblum
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I will simply weigh my desire
for white bread over rye, for example.
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mary rosenblum
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But if I wanted my reader to
know what my character was thinking, I'd have to use words...
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mary rosenblum
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since that sense of desire
isn't verbal, it won't translate well...
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mary rosenblum
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but 'white or wheat? Candy
reached for the wheat bread, giving in to her doctor's orders.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the English equivalent
of what is passing through her head...maybe ALL nonverbal here.
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mary rosenblum
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desire for white bread, desire
for wheat bread, memory of doctor chiding her about diet and instructing
whole grain bread.
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mary rosenblum
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NO words, just memory and
desire.
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redraven
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Isn't 'at the vase cleaners' a
direct thought?
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mary rosenblum
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No, red, but see? It SOUNDS
like it.
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mary rosenblum
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The words 'at the vase
cleaners' probably didn't go through her head...
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mary rosenblum
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maybe 'vase cleaners' . :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But by using her voice, it
seems perfectly reasonable that she is thinking this.
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potential
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should there be a tag at the end
of a direct thought?
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mary rosenblum
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when you need it, potential.
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mary rosenblum
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Mostly I use she thought or he
thought for rhythm reasons.
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mary rosenblum
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I often use sentence fragments
as thoughts to represent our fragmented thinking proces...
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mary rosenblum
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and if it sounds too choppy,
I'll throw in a 'she thought' to lengthen and smooth out the sentence.
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mary rosenblum
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Usually it's obvious from
context...AND the fact that you don't have any "" marks.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are very good at
limited third, your internal POV becomes ALL the narrative and you do
virtually the same thing you do with first person.
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potential
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Would that be the way to keep
you POV in the forefront?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, potential. By using that
internal POV you are constantly increasing our intimacy with the POV.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about internal
POV tonight. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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megger
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Something like, "Stumbling
into the bedroom, I look at the clock on the wall. 1:00 AM. I have got to
get to bed earlier during the week."
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mary rosenblum
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Excellent, megger. And your
character might actually think to himself 'I have got to get to bed
earlier'...
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mary rosenblum
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or maybe the thought is less
coherent, but it SOUNDS as if your character thought it.
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ashton
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How about atalicizing one word
as a way of putting emphasis on it?
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mary rosenblum
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You can, but don't overuse it.
The rhythm of the story itself should emphasize the word for you.
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mary rosenblum
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You shouldn't need to add
anything.
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mary rosenblum
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Mostly italic is useful for
making it clear that a sound or a word is not of human origin.
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mary rosenblum
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Now I can't make everyone see
italic if I do it here. I have to use html.
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mary rosenblum
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The computer hummed to life enter
your password
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mary rosenblum
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The italicized words are the
computer voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, I use
alien/nonhuman voices a lot, in SF, so I do a lot of italic.
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randi-lee
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so if you put in 'she thought'
then that is not considered direct then...correct?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it's not a matter of
tags, randi.
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mary rosenblum
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it's a matter of whether the
thought is treated like dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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Let me give you a side by side
comparison.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't want to go to Granny's
house. I really don't like here. It's boring. I don't have anyone to play
with and she smells bad," Anne thought.
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mary rosenblum
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That is a direct thought.
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mary rosenblum
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She didn't want to go to
Granny's house. Boring, nobody to play with, and she stunk," Anne
thought.
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mary rosenblum
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Now I would probably use an
action tag rather than 'Ann thought'.
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mary rosenblum
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The sentence doesn't really
need that tag.
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mary rosenblum
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One of the problems with
direct thought in third person is that you use a lot of present tense, as
you do in dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't want to go to granny's
house. I don't like her.
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mary rosenblum
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And it is kind of a bump when
the story is in past tense.
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starr r
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Wait...you're using quotes? and
she stunk," Anne thought.
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mary rosenblum
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Not me, starr. That's the
software. It always puts quotes around anything I post.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, actually, I did put quotes
in there. Slip of the fingers. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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They shouldn't be there.
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gail
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I'm currently reading a Frederik
Pohl novel in which the only use of italics is at the start of each
chapter. It's an omnipotent POV that offers more detailed setting info -- I
find it quite distracting, having the authors "voice" repeatedly
breaking in like that. Comments or suggestions?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, that's Pohl, and he does
it that way. :-) Dear man though he is, I haven't rally read his SF since
high school. (Shhh...don't tell anywone).
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starr r
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But using the present tense is a
sign that it's thought, rather than narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, starr...just as when your
characters speak in limited third, they may use present tense.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a sign that it is DIRECT
thought as opposed to indirect...which is narrative in form.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about internal
POV tonight. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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gail
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I'm currently working on a short
story written in Ltd-3rd POV and wonder if any italicizing is necessary as
almost all of the dialogue is internal. In fact, it is the bulk of the
story.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, glad you asked this
gail...
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mary rosenblum
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it's a topic I was a
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mary rosenblum
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going to bring up.
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mary rosenblum
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If your story is mostly
internal POV...why don't you use first person?
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mary rosenblum
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That is when I do it.
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mary rosenblum
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First person IS internal pov.
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mary rosenblum
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That's all it is, beginning to
end.
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mary rosenblum
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The character is talking to
us, either out loud or in his/her head.
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mary rosenblum
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Do first person and let your
character think/talk all the time.
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ashton
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You said you'd probably use an
action tag. What action tag would have been better than "Ann
thought"?
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mary rosenblum
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Anne flounced out of the room.
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mary rosenblum
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Anne scowled at her suitcase.
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mary rosenblum
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Something like that.
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potential
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In an indirect thought do you
use quotations?
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mary rosenblum
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You ONLY use quotation marks
around words that are spoken out loud.
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mary rosenblum
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Let me give you an example.
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mary rosenblum
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"Sure, George, I'll be
glad to take care of your dog." And I hope it doesn't bite me this
time, you jerk.
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mary rosenblum
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Now the software added that
final "...
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mary rosenblum
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but we have the spoken line to
George and then we have the character's thought.
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mary rosenblum
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The quote marks tell us he
said he'd take care of the dog out loud to George.
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mary rosenblum
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And the other sentence,
without quote marks, is what is running through his head.
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randi-lee
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when do single quotations come
into play.
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mary rosenblum
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Just don't use 'em.
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gail
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I wanted to include the thoughts
of two other characters, though, and so chose the Ltd-3rd POV. However, I
could possibly rework those other "lesser" characters and have
body language and dialogue make up for not "hearing" their
thoughts. Is that a plausible option?
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mary rosenblum
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If you're including the
thoughts of other characters, then you are switching POV.
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mary rosenblum
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ARe you sure you want to do
that?
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mary rosenblum
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Is your story plot driven
rather than character driven?
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mary rosenblum
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In first person, you can let
your POV 'guess' those character's thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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This is what first person does
best...
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mary rosenblum
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gives you a POV that handles
lots of internal stuff well.
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mary rosenblum
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Like this.
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mary rosenblum
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So I tell Joey that I'm going
to quit tomorrow and he nods and all that, but I can see he thinks I'm
bluffing.
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mary rosenblum
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We now know that Joey doesn't
believe our POV.
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gail
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Very much char. driven.
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gail
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1st POV scares the bejeebers out
of me -- not sure why. Guess that's why I'm dragging my feet on accepting
the obvious POV choice. ;-) Thanx, Mary.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, me, too, gail.
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mary rosenblum
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I rarely do it. BUT...when I
have a very internal POV, I DO use it.
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mary rosenblum
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I had a story published in
Asimov's this last year...Skin Deep...
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mary rosenblum
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and I switched it to first
becuase it is mainly the character thinking about things he observes with
some dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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It would have been BORING in
third. :-)
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randi-lee
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I personally don't like the
italics when reading. For some reason it distracts me from the story.
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mary rosenblum
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Italic sounds like a shout or
an inhuman voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Best to avoid it.
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ashton
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How about when your POV finds a
letter and reads it? Should the letter be in italics or how do you make
that work?
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mary rosenblum
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You can do it two ways,
ashton.
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mary rosenblum
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You can underline the text if
it's short. The editor will probably set it in italic.
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mary rosenblum
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OR, if it is a long letter,
write [set off] before the text begins...
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mary rosenblum
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and [end set off] at the end
of the block of text.
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mary rosenblum
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That tells the editor to set
it in a different font. You can bracket [italic] in the margin if you want.
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mary rosenblum
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the brackets tell the
typesetter to ignore those words and not to set them.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of underlining makes the
page hard to read.
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t green
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when you send in your ms's with
italics, do you actually USE the italic font, or do you underline what you
want italicized?
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mary rosenblum
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It's changing, t.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're sending to a NY
publisher, use underline not italic.
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mary rosenblum
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But many ezines want text
submissions or don't care or want a particular type of file like .rtf.
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mary rosenblum
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The NY typesetters learn some
concrete rules and one of 'em is: underline = italic.
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mary rosenblum
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leftover from the typewriter
era. Who said publishing is on the cutting edge of technology, lol.
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starr r
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Weird how we all look at things
so differently. I like working in 1st, cuz I can just pretend I'm that
char. Seems easier to me than 3rd.
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mary rosenblum
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Just be careful that all your
POVs don't share your voice and your worldview, starr. :-)
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redraven
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I can see the use of italic for
present tense direct thought in a story written in past tense.
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mary rosenblum
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You can do it that way. Most
readers don't like it, but some publishers insist on it.
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randi-lee
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I find that some publishers
publish most of their books from a first person POV. Black Lace seems to
publish mostly first person POV. Is this common in publishers?
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mary rosenblum
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For some publishers, yes. The
'true crime' mags and 'true romance' mags insist on first person.
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mary rosenblum
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Read the guidelines.
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mary rosenblum
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If they prefer first person,
they should tell you.
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mary rosenblum
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If that's what five out of six
books are in...you can figure it out. :-)
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gail
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Is it considered professional to
ask and editor their preference on the use or indication of italics?
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mary rosenblum
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It should be in their
guidelines, gail.
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mary rosenblum
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If nothing is said, just use
underline.
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wardg
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direct thought is a good way to
show rather than tell, but how do you know when it's overused?
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mary rosenblum
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That's a matter of experience
and reader feedback, ward.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of readers dislike a lot
of internal POV.
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mary rosenblum
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But some internal gives the
reader much more insight into the characater.
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mary rosenblum
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Ask your readers specifically
if it was too much or too little when you give it to 'em to read for you.
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megger
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Is it wise to have more than one
internal POV in a story?
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mary rosenblum
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Well,a POV shift is a POV
shift, whether you do it internally or externally.
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mary rosenblum
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POV means that we are
experiencing this story through this particular character.
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mary rosenblum
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We know his thoughts at times,
we know what he sees, tastes, hears, smells, touches.
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mary rosenblum
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Shifting POV throws the reader
out of that POV and shatters whatever intimacy you have developed between
reader and POV.
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mary rosenblum
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If the story depends on the
reader caring about what happens to the POV, it's not a good idea.
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mary rosenblum
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In a novel, with lots more
words, you can switch between two or three or more POVs...
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mary rosenblum
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but the fewer you have, the
more intimate the reader becomes with each.
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ashton
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For assignment 8 I have a very
internal POV and yet I've chosen limited 3rd...Have I goofed?
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mary rosenblum
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Gosh, ashton. Dunno. :-) If it
works, you haven't goofed.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...the only rule is
that it must work
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megger
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As a follow-up, what if one is
non-human?
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mary rosenblum
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WEll, it depends on what works
for your story, megger.
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mary rosenblum
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I have talking ships in some
of my recent SF... the ship words are in italic to make it clear that one
of the characters is not speaking...
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mary rosenblum
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and it allows me to avoid all
tag lines. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I don't have to say, 'the ship
said'.
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seigfried007
|
i use <> for telepathic
speach and [] for sign
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mary rosenblum
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Taht's a good way to do it,
seig.
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mary rosenblum
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Whatever works.
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potential
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Can 1st and 3rd POV be
intermingled?
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mary rosenblum
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It's very hard to pull off in
a short story, potential. You have to make the separation so clear that
readers...
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mary rosenblum
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can make your transition
effortlessly between first and third POVs.
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mary rosenblum
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I've seen it done in novel
before...cna't think of the example...
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mary rosenblum
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but I know I"ve seen it.
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mary rosenblum
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You'd probably altenate
chapters...one person keeping a diary, perhaps, another POV living an
adventure...
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mary rosenblum
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something like that.
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wardg
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i get afraid to do a lot of
narrating about what my main is thinking
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mary rosenblum
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That's very wise, ward. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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YOu can really convey a lot of
thought through body language and dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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A few sentence fragments and
fill up any blanks.
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potential
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How would I determine if I
wanted to use 1st or 3rd POV?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, third allows you to use
more detail without violating your POV.
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mary rosenblum
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YOur first person POV is only
going to notice the things that matter to him/her.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want to give more
details of your world to the reader, if there is a lot of action, third is
probably your better choice.
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mary rosenblum
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If your character will be
doing a lot of thinking and not much doing, first is probably a better
choice.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want to lie to your
reader...
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mary rosenblum
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say, keep the reader in the
dark that the POV is really the axe murderer...
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mary rosenblum
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use first.
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mary rosenblum
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We don't blame the author if
the character lies to us.
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mary rosenblum
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We DO blame the author if the
author lies to us (which would be the case in third person, where the
author is revealing the POV character's thoughts).
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about internal
POV tonight. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and
will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here,
remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word
bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to
ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask
and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for
you..
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redraven
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More than one or two lines of
direct or indirect thought can take away from the action.
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mary rosenblum
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Absolutely!!!
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mary rosenblum
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I cannot stress enough that
internal POV makes for a slack scene tensionwise, unless it is very
brief...
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mary rosenblum
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and embedded in action.
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mary rosenblum
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Now the tradeoff is that it's
a great way to get info to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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So have an action scene, then
let our POV ride back to town, thinking morosely about how he just blew
whatever.
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ashton
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Rules...Rules...I just wanna
write without thinking about RULES. (smile) I'm more confused now about
what I'm doing and what I'm writing and if I'm writing the right way and
using the right POV...first or third...I'll be insane before I've published
my first book.
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mary rosenblum
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They're not rules, ashton. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Writing without any thought to
what you are doing is called a first draft. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But creating something that a
wide variety of readers who do NOT know your characters and story like you
do...
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mary rosenblum
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and making those characters
and that story come to life for them...
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mary rosenblum
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so that they remember it for
the rest of their lives...
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mary rosenblum
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takes.... (are you ready for
this...drum roll please)
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mary rosenblum
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work
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mary rosenblum
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They're not rules.
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mary rosenblum
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The only RULE is 'it has to
work'.
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mary rosenblum
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But it's like building a
house.
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mary rosenblum
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If you don't know how to lay
in a rafter, or toe nail a stud wall, it's goign to be a rough job at best.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu write what you want to
write.
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mary rosenblum
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YOU know the whole story. It's
perfect. For you.
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mary rosenblum
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But I don't. You have to add
all the little things that you know and I don't so that story...
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mary rosenblum
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becomes as real for me as it
is for you. That is craft.
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mary rosenblum
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If we were telepathic, we
wouldn't need it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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We'd just add the 'telepathic
hyperlink'.
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ashton
|
Oh! I usually can't do first
drafts. I try and make things perfect first time around...that's why I'm so
slow. (smile) I've always wanted to know how things work NOW, not later.
I'm not good at the waiting to get good stuff.
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mary rosenblum
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Well if it works for you
that's fine, ashton. A writer friend of mine does it that way.
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mary rosenblum
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But my creative brain and my
editor brain cannot share my skull peaceably!
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mary rosenblum
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They fight. So I can only let
one play at a time. :-)
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redraven
|
One way I avoid writer's block
is to write my thoughts and wild ideas on scratch paper; later I can select
what I can actually use and put it into better form.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a great idea, red. Been
doing that for years. I still stumble on old ideas in the many worn
notebooks scattered around...
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mary rosenblum
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and they often come back to
new life. :-)
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wardg
|
it seems like if i want to see
if i am overusing thought / internal POV i should check the scene tension
throughout. not like a Rule but a guide maybe?
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mary rosenblum
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Tha'ts a good way to do it.
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mary rosenblum
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Think about that scene.
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mary rosenblum
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If YOU were in this situation,
would YOU be thinking this right now?
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mary rosenblum
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Or would you be doing
something else instead?
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ashton
|
that's what drags me down. I
feel like everyone else knows their craft a hundred times faster then me.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, don't confuse
understanding and doing.
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mary rosenblum
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You can DO all the things we
are talking about and not have a clue WHAT you are doing...the story simply
works.
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mary rosenblum
|
I can break it down into
description...but I couldn't do that when I first started out.
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mary rosenblum
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I could create a scene that
worked...why did it work when the last scene didn't?
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mary rosenblum
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couldn't have told you for
love nor money.
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mary rosenblum
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But I will tell you
this...teaching people how to improve their craft is a very good way to
understand the nuts and bolts of what you do without thinking. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You can know how to write
strong dialogue, say, but telling a new writer how to do it means
understanding all the steps you take without thinking. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
It's not really that
intellectual...and for many writers, never is.
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mary rosenblum
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I just happen to love to teach
writing.
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seigfried007
|
what about internal arguments?
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mary rosenblum
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You can do it, seig.
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mary rosenblum
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Just stop before it starts to
sound contrived. :-) Unless your character has multiple personalities.
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mary rosenblum
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And then I'd be inclined to
use italic for one personality's dialogue.
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seigfried007
|
but do they slacken tension?
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mary rosenblum
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If they go on too long, sure.
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mary rosenblum
|
You can do a very brief
one...three lines...in the middle of a strong action scene and you're fine.
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mary rosenblum
|
A ten line argument in the
middle of a sword fight....
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mary rosenblum
|
nah.
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wardg
|
i sometimes use the memories of
other past characters in the main's life to be the other side of an
argument
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mary rosenblum
|
You could certainly do that.
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mary rosenblum
|
I DO argue with myself at
times...usually consciously, in dialogue. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
(Well, writers by definition
have multiple personalities).
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redraven
|
Ice cream or apple? Damn!
Indulgent or virtuous?
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mary rosenblum
|
Exactly. And that's very nice.
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mary rosenblum
|
To me, in a scene, I'd hear
that character's thoughts and not miss a beat.
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mary rosenblum
|
This ties...very
deliberately...into our topic of character filtering.
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mary rosenblum
|
Because if you are filtering
through your character's POV in limited third, it will begin to seem as if
all description is your character's intermal POV even if it is not
thought...
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mary rosenblum
|
because you have narrowed the
narrative distance to zero.
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seigfried007
|
Peter bonged his head into the
wall, wondering what Dad might do in his situation. I wouldn't have gotten
myself into it, Petey. His brows knit. Thanks, Dad. Knew I could count on
you.
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mary rosenblum
|
That's gonna confuse readers,
Seig, unless you make it instantly clear...
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mary rosenblum
|
that dad is saying 'I wouldn't
have gotten myself into it, Petey'.
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mary rosenblum
|
You could add 'His father's
voice echoed in his head' immediately after...
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mary rosenblum
|
or something like that.
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mary rosenblum
|
Or it might be clear from
context in the scene...
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mary rosenblum
|
that he is talking to Dad or
his ghost
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starr r
|
""Because if you are
filtering through your character's POV in limited third..." OK, I get
that. But HOW do we do it?
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mary rosenblum
|
Ask yourself what your
character perceives and then describe it in that characater's voice
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mary rosenblum
|
Marly stuck his head through
the door. Dirty dishes in the sink. Clothes all over. Pizza boxes on the
sofa. He tiptoed into the dim livingroom.
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mary rosenblum
|
Sniffed. Cat box, rotting
food. Three days at least, he thought. I missed him by three damn days.
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mary rosenblum
|
Those last two sentences are
direct thought...he's sort of talking to himself.
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mary rosenblum
|
The sentence fragments
represent what he notices.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the narrative form of
that with a much greater narrative distance.
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mary rosenblum
|
Marly stuck his head through
the door. He saw dirty dishes in the sink. Clothes lay strewn all around
the room.
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mary rosenblum
|
Open pizza boxes stacked the
sofa. Marly tiptoed into the living room.
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mary rosenblum
|
He sniffed, smelling cat box
and rotting food. Three days at least, he thought.
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mary rosenblum
|
I missed him by three damn
days.
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wardg
|
then your narrator voice needs
to be clearly different from the char's voice to avoid confusion?
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mary rosenblum
|
In limited third you should
only have your character's voice, ideally.
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gail
|
Your "grammar checker"
must have a field day with all those fragments! lol Are your MS as
"red underlined" as mine? :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Ha. I turn off grammar check.
My computer and I would both go nuts!
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mary rosenblum
|
My dictionary is very
interesting as is, considering I write SF and make up tons of words. :-)
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megger
|
Good God. How many POVs are
there, she thought?
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mary rosenblum
|
Nice direct thought.
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ashton
|
So you can use "I" in
limited 3rd as long as your POV is talking to him or herself...direct
thought? I would have written, "She'd missed him by three days"
as apposed to "I missed him by three days."
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mary rosenblum
|
If it's a direct thought it's
I.
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mary rosenblum
|
If it's indirect, then I would
have used 'She'd missed him by three days'.
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mary rosenblum
|
Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour...
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mary rosenblum
|
and I'll come back to this
topic...
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mary rosenblum
|
because it takes a while to do
this well.
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mary rosenblum
|
BUT it is a level of craft
that will take you to the top of the slush pile and sell your stories.
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mary rosenblum
|
Once I had mastered this level
of limited POV, I began to sell regularly.
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mary rosenblum
|
Believe me, you'll do it
before you really understand what you are doing! :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Do join us Sunday for our
casual chat.
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|
mary rosenblum
|
SAme time as the Forum, only
we get together to just talk about writing.
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fiction_scribe
|
thanks & can we talk about
active voice/passive voice sometime as a topic
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Sure fiction. Can you make the
Tuesday forums or only Friday?
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mary rosenblum
|
I can do it next Friday if
that's easier for you.
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mary rosenblum
|
Active/passive and tight
sentences.
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|
mary rosenblum
|
I can talk about 'woulnd' and
the 'ing verbs too. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Next Friday then.
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mary rosenblum
|
Well have a great weekend!
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mary rosenblum
|
See you Sunday.
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|
mary rosenblum
|
I'll post the transcript in
the usual place.
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|
mary rosenblum
|
Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
|