Forum Transcripts

Matching Character to Story 7/21/06

Event start time:

Fri Jul 21 19:05:57 2006

Event end time:

Fri Jul 21 20:32:03 2006



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Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After Hours.

mary rosenblum

I sure hope you're cooler than we are!

mary rosenblum

Here in the cool, cloudy, rainy Pacific Northwest we are at 105 F.

mary rosenblum

I'm sure this breaks some record or other. I can't remember anything this hot in the last 25 years or so.

mary rosenblum

Who has air conditioning here? We don't need it. :-}

geezer

106, Mary

mary rosenblum

Yes, but you're not in a part of the country that doesn't HAVE hot weather! We're just spoiled. And whining en masse. :-)

mary rosenblum

Anyway, weather gripes aside (and I'm actually quite comfortable in my passive solar house...it stays cool)

mary rosenblum

this IS our Friday After Hours Forum. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about matching stories to characters. And vice versa! I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

gskearney

Ha, ha, 82. Nebraska stole your weather, Mary. Rained all morning then cool and sunny. --gk

mary rosenblum

Okay Gary, give it back!!!

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about character and story...their relationship.

mary rosenblum

It's pretty common when you're starting out to just come up with a character and a plot and not really think much about how one relates to the other.

mary rosenblum

You just take this character and drop him or her into that plot and let the games begin!

mary rosenblum

And that can work fine...be a fun exploration as your character explores the story and deals with the issues you throw in his/her path.

mary rosenblum

Nothing wrong with doing it that way, as long as you're willing to alter your plot when necessary. Sometimes you'll find that your character simply would not do...

mary rosenblum

something you need to have him or her do to make your plot work.

mary rosenblum

But if you're in the throes of creating a story and you don't have your characters cast in stone yet...

mary rosenblum

think about what you need for that story in terms of character.

mary rosenblum

The right character for the story can take something that is 'ho hum' and give it enormous power.

beausdad

which should come first Caharacter or story?

mary rosenblum

Well, that's sort of a chicken/egg question, dad.

mary rosenblum

Either one can come first...they can come together.

mary rosenblum

Often I come up with an interesting character.

mary rosenblum

I'll then try to find a story that will make use of my character to the greatest degree possible...

mary rosenblum

playing to that character's strengths and flaws.

mary rosenblum

Other times, I will come up with a plot and then I will think up characters who have particular strengths and weaknesses...

mary rosenblum

that will cause the most interesting interaction with the plot.

mary rosenblum

And other times, character and plot sort of leap into being together. (My current novel started that way).

lore alley

so if you have a less-than-powerful plot but a riveting character, the story can work? that's encouraging for me, if so... :-)

mary rosenblum

Of course, lore. :-) Most of my early short fiction -- which has gotten excellent reviews most of the time -- has a weak plot. It's strength comes from the character interactions.

mary rosenblum

I'm much better at balancing character and plot now.

mary rosenblum

It can work the other way, too.

mary rosenblum

If you have a dynamite plot...say a cool O'Henry ending or something like that...

mary rosenblum

then well drawn characters that aren't really very deep may work just fine.

mary rosenblum

But a weak plot with weak characters won't get you anywhere.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about matching stories to characters. And vice versa! I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

So it's a good idea, if you can do it, to think about characters and plot when you're first setting up a story.

mary rosenblum

It's much more important in novel form than short fiction, by the way.

mary rosenblum

If your characters work strongly with your plot, you

mary rosenblum

you'll have a much easier time keeping that story going strongly all the way through.

mary rosenblum

You may not even experience the 'desert of the middle' slow down that plagues a lot of novelists.

mary rosenblum

So what do you consider when you're weighing plot and characters?

mary rosenblum

Well, if you have thought up a really neat character or two and want to give them a story...

mary rosenblum

think for a bit about who they are.

mary rosenblum

What do they do well? What will give them fits, cause them to lose their tempers, struggle, and sweat?

mary rosenblum

See if you can come up with a plot that specifically causes them troubles.

mary rosenblum

Let's look at something that has been published.

robastor

I working on a story where I going through all this. What I really need is a place to look for information about Japanese cultures; specifically from a person's point of view that's teenaged to early twenties in age. Any suggestions? :-)

mary rosenblum

Contemporary, rob?

mary rosenblum

Or historical?

robastor

Anything will help at this point.

mary rosenblum

Well for contemporary I

mary rosenblum

I'd start with Manga and Anime.

mary rosenblum

That's what is READ by contemporary Japanese teens and early twenties.

mary rosenblum

Then I'd go looking for anything written by someone of that age group (might be hard) or anything written by...

mary rosenblum

someone within the culture with a main character of that age.

mary rosenblum

And finally, try the anthroplological journals, cultural journals.

mary rosenblum

You have to read it all and kind of 'triangulate' on what seems to be similar in various sources.

mary rosenblum

When you're looking for cultural attitudes, you really do need to read widely.

mary rosenblum

One person's lecture on 'what teens think' can be very off base. :-) You just don't know.

mary rosenblum

In terms of story...

mary rosenblum

If you have a plot, think about it.

mary rosenblum

What character will make the most of the situation in terms of what might happen?

mary rosenblum

Let's look at Hatchet by Gary Paulson.

mary rosenblum

This is a story of a kid who is stranded in the Canadian wilderness after a plane crash...

mary rosenblum

and he survives with nothing to help him but a hatchet that, as I recall, his father gave him. (Been a long time since I read it).

mary rosenblum

If you think about it..

mary rosenblum

an experienced bush pilot wouldn't have made as good a character.

mary rosenblum

He would have known how to survive and managed just fine.

mary rosenblum

While the inexperienced city kid had to learn the hard way about biting insects, bears, how to find food and the like...

mary rosenblum

so his fumbling for survival drives the story.

mary rosenblum

Much more drama and interesting scenes than our wilderness-skilled bush pilot...

mary rosenblum

who simply built himself a shelter, dropped a fish line into the lake and whipped out a paperback to wait for the next plane to go over. :-)

mary rosenblum

And what if you have a ten year old girl as passenger?

mary rosenblum

Now you COULD make her into a kid who has the gumption to survive and manages and it might even be a stronger story than the one Paulsen wrote...

mary rosenblum

although there's a strong father son subtext that adds to that story.

mary rosenblum

Or she might have simply died of hypothermia three days into the story.

mary rosenblum

But our teen boy had the physical stamina to take a fair amount of physical abuse and still have the strength to survive...

mary rosenblum

and he fit with the father/son subplot.

mary rosenblum

And I don't know if Paulsen though this through this way or just thought 'teen kid' as soon as he thought of the story idea...

mary rosenblum

but that character works and other characters might not have worked as well for this story.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about matching stories to characters. And vice versa! I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Your story is really an organic whole that is greater than the sum of character/setting/plot. Or it should be greater!

mary rosenblum

So when you're first plotting a story out, even if that story came to you in a flash and seems perfect...

mary rosenblum

play around with it a bit. What if you change the character, what then? What if you change the plot?

mary rosenblum

Stories seem very 'rigid' to most writers starting out. Me, too! I wasn't any different.

mary rosenblum

You think up a story, you write it. It works or it doesn't work.

mary rosenblum

It takes some time to realize that stories are like silly putty.

mary rosenblum

Twist 'em, pull on em, stretch em, roll 'em up into a ball and start over...you can do a lot without hurting them.

mary rosenblum

And often, with a bit of twisting and pulling you discover a diamond hidden in that mess of silly putty.

mary rosenblum

And if you went only with that first story idea, you might have missed it.

mary rosenblum

Very rarely now is the story I write the story I first thought of.

mary rosenblum

Oh, sometimes they come to me 'just right'.

mary rosenblum

But most of the time, if I play with that silly putty for awhile, I do find some kind of gem in there.

mary rosenblum

Remember you can't break a story.

mary rosenblum

Write down your original idea.

mary rosenblum

If all your playing with it leaves you with something you just don't like -- go back to the original version.

mary rosenblum

Give yourself permission to have fun with your story and your characters for awhile before you commit to a story.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about matching stories to characters. And vice versa! I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

tory

Mary, I find that though my novels are all different genres (contemporary, romance, suspense), I typically have an MC or MC couple, a friend, and a child or two. Can it be a problem iwth publishers if an author usues the same type of character over and over? I just realized that pattern I'm developing.

mary rosenblum

It depends, Tory. If you manage to keep the stories fresh and they're not always the same people, it's not too bad.

mary rosenblum

Certainly reviewers will point this out.

mary rosenblum

But if readers like your family of characters they won't mind meeting them over and over.

mary rosenblum

I think I'd suggest that you do try to stretch a bit beyond this cast.

mary rosenblum

You're sort of limiting what you can do if your characters are all pretty similar.

mary rosenblum

Publishers, by the way, won't care at all as long as your books sell well. :-)

tory

Oh I have a wide variety of "supporting cast"--different ages, ethnicities, etc. Just noticed I like having a child or two--every time.

mary rosenblum

Every writer has 'tropes'. :-) I have a few of my own.

mary rosenblum

As long as they work, it's fine.

mary rosenblum

BUT...what you might try, is to use a character who is very different than the 'usual'. YOu might find that it pushes your story in a new direction...

mary rosenblum

and that may or may not be a good thing.

mary rosenblum

You won't know until you try.

mary rosenblum

I think we're all too serious starting out.

mary rosenblum

We get so focused on 'write the perfect story'...because we're all trying so hard to break in...

mary rosenblum

that few of us can play with what we're doing.

mary rosenblum

That tends to come later, when you've been reassured by some sales. :-)

mary rosenblum

But if you can start out doing a bit of playing to see just what happens, you'll write better for it.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes it will give you a stronger story, other times it will be a dead end, but you'll learn a lot.

mary rosenblum

One favorite bit of story/character testing I do is to change the gender of one character.

mary rosenblum

Okay, so what if she is now a he?

mary rosenblum

What happens now?

mary rosenblum

Remember, a good character match is one who, when combined with the plot events, creates the most power.

mary rosenblum

Some of the weakest novice stories I see are when a superior MC who is one notch short of superman/superwoman deals with the plot events. Ho hum.

charie'

I had an all male space crew and was stumped as to what their mission was. I changed one crewman to female and gained a several new plot ideas

mary rosenblum

Just the sexual tensions and dynamics will add a LOT there, charie.

mary rosenblum

Or make them all women and then decide why the expedition is all women and what does that mean?

mary rosenblum

You might find that your plot changes enormously.

charie'

I also made her somewhat of a pariah

mary rosenblum

Interesting. :-) And how long was this trip?

charie'

LOL Some of the men want to protect her, others use her. So far lots of plot fodder

mary rosenblum

No kidding. So here's a GREAT example of matching your character to your plot!

mary rosenblum

You have a solo woman on a long space flight. YOu are going to have exactly that mix of male responses, depending on how far in the future...

mary rosenblum

you are and what the cultural conventions of that time are. Is the crew all Christian? Some Islam? Asian? Each group...

mary rosenblum

has their own cultural feelings about women. And what about her?

mary rosenblum

Depending on who SHE is, those interactions will vary all over the map and so will your plot.

mary rosenblum

This is a story where I would spend quite a bit of time thinking about this woman, why she' here, how the situation is going to affect her and vice versa.

charie'

The point being, I was stuck until I made that initial change

mary rosenblum

Oh, I know, this is just such a perfect example of a story where you'd want to think about that character particularly.

mary rosenblum

And yes, by throwing that single woman into the mix, you opened up a host of possibilities for the story.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about matching stories to characters. And vice versa! I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

grayalien

Mary, I'm writing a story in which I need the villian to be despicable, one that the reader really hates. Do you have any tips, hints, that sort of thing?

mary rosenblum

Sure, gray. Make that villain seem nice on the surface and then let him/her do one of the things that we culturally despise.

mary rosenblum

He betrays someone who trusts him (and whom we like).

mary rosenblum

He harms or allows a kid to be injured or killed.

mary rosenblum

He kills someone we care about in cold blood.

mary rosenblum

We have many cultural 'knee jerks' to certain behaviors.

mary rosenblum

Just don't pile it on too thick and make that person a Mr. Nasty who like to torture small animals for amusement and eats live fish.

mary rosenblum

The more familiar that person is, the more we'll react to his 'villainous' behavior.

mary rosenblum

But the man who wants his brother's land and calmly tips his young son down the well and then walks away...him we can hate.

grayalien

No small animals will be harmed in my story. I promise!

mary rosenblum

LOL gray, good to hear it.

mary rosenblum

Remember...never kill the dog. Your readers will stone you.

mary rosenblum

It can be even more important to play mix and match with your villain.

mary rosenblum

Very few writers do villains well.

mary rosenblum

Mostly they're cardboard.

mary rosenblum

and if you can come up with a villain who really fits your story and is plausible and real...you'll give your readers bad dreams. :-)

mary rosenblum

Because they'll see someone they know or work with in that person.

mary rosenblum

Villains are nothing more than people like you and me who do the things we all sometimes think we'd really like to do. :-)

mary rosenblum

Only we're not serious.

mary rosenblum

When you come up with a particular story idea...

mary rosenblum

try putting different characters into the MC slot.

mary rosenblum

Give those characters various personal agendas...

mary rosenblum

they have their own issues, and now they have to deal with this plot, too!

mary rosenblum

See if some character doesn't suddenly make the story take off...

mary rosenblum

with a cascade of 'and then...and then...'

mary rosenblum

Like Charie changing her character to a woman and the story took off.

mary rosenblum

Don't make your characters too usual.

mary rosenblum

Give them things they want to do or need to do that aren't part of your plot.

mary rosenblum

You'll give them a lot more interest that way.

geezer

I stuck an aquarium in a character's office and found out that he resembled a fish!

mary rosenblum

Oh, that's funny, geeze. :-)

grayalien

I hope this isn't a silly question, but I'm just beginning as a writer, so I need to ask. What are some differences between the outlook of male vs. female MC's? Examples?

mary rosenblum

Well, there's actually a LOT of difference. :-) It's not stereotypical, like all guys like to hunt, all women like to shop. (shudder)

mary rosenblum

But it is true that woman and men tend to think and behave differently, although this is a wide spectrum...

mary rosenblum

and you have a lot of overlap in the middle.

mary rosenblum

It's mostly a matter of paying attention to the other gender.

mary rosenblum

And not just accepting the superficial stereotypes of bad jokes.

mary rosenblum

If you have a close friend of the appropriate gender, give the story to that person and ask if you got it right.

mary rosenblum

My friend Mike Moscoe runs all his stuff past his wife. He's using a female POV in his current series (rare for male writers, by the way).

mary rosenblum

And she says at times 'no, she wouldn't do that, she'd do this'. And Mike listens.

grayalien

Sorry, I know that was a pretty broad question. It's just that I'm writing a story with a female protagonist, and I'm a guy, so any help is appreciated.

mary rosenblum

You guys have a harder time than we do with this, gray. That really IS the truth.

mary rosenblum

I think it is SO culturally inappropriate for guys to even think about thinking like a woman that it's hard. Get a friend...

mary rosenblum

who's a girl to help you out.

geezer

There are studies on differences in brain structure, chemistry, and processing for the sexes and how it affects behavior.

mary rosenblum

Yeah, there are. Man are from Mars, Women Are From Venus is decent.

mary rosenblum

But you end up with characters that sound like textbook examples. :-)

mary rosenblum

Get someone to read your stuff and comment on the female reactions, gray.

mary rosenblum

When I'm doing male POV which I do a lot...

mary rosenblum

I tend to put some friend or other into the scene. Now what would he do here? How would he say this?

mary rosenblum

He won't say the same things or react the same way as a woman might.

mary rosenblum

Next time you use a woman in your story...

mary rosenblum

think of someone who might fit that role and then think of her in every interaction.

mary rosenblum

What would she say?

mary rosenblum

What would she do?

mary rosenblum

How would she react?

charie'

I use the same technique with women who don't react like I would. There are different personalities inside the genders.

mary rosenblum

Exactly.

mary rosenblum

I"m a total tomboy and could pass quite nicely for a teenage boy when I was younger and my hair was very short. :-) So when I do a very feminine...

mary rosenblum

character, I have to draw on friends of mine who are more like that.

mary rosenblum

And it's also cultural.

mary rosenblum

A woman in Asia will not react like a Muslim woman from Pakistan who will not react like a woman from London or a woman from New York.

mary rosenblum

Same with male characters.

mary rosenblum

A twenty year old from Hong Kong will not react the same as a twenty year old from the LA barrio.

geezer

When confronted with a plumbing job, I yell for a man. My friend, a marine's wife, does it herself. Motivation? Self reliance. Woul;d she be the same married to an accountant?

mary rosenblum

Sure, geeze. It would depend on what she needed from the marriage and what he provided. Might have nothing to do with who fixed the plumbing. Or sex either, for that matter. :-)

charie'

Age can be a defining character trait as well.

mary rosenblum

Absolutely!

mary rosenblum

My 75 year old stepmom who grew up in the gentile south has a very different reaction to many things than I do...

mary rosenblum

This is what real characters are all about.

mary rosenblum

These are the considerations that make your 75 year old seem real, or your Hong Kong 19 year old, or your barrio kid.

grayalien

Interesting. I've even read novels by authors who have female characters, and I can tell that their moods, reactions, that sort of thing are just plain wrong. Even the best selling authors seem to do this sometimes.

mary rosenblum

All the time.

mary rosenblum

I routinely fling Tony Hillermans books across the room because his women are SUCH 50s stereotypes.

mary rosenblum

But that's the cultural milieu he came out of.

mary rosenblum

Drives me up a wall though, when he does Navajo so well. He just needs to think of women as tribe, that's all. LOL

grayalien

Or the female character acts too much like a man. Michael Crichton does this a lot.

mary rosenblum

That's the most common and Michael Crichton doesn't really do characters well. He does plot.

mary rosenblum

I saw that, geeze. You can BE a fifties stereotype, just do real female characters, please. And when do you think I was born, anyway?

mary rosenblum

What I meant about Hillerman, is that his female characters reflect the common stereotypes of women in the fifties.

mary rosenblum

So when you come up with a story, play with the character a bit, make some changes, and see if you don't...

mary rosenblum

come up with something that suddenly clicks with your plot and offers a lot of interesting new potential.

mary rosenblum

You can always use the character you first thought of.

mary rosenblum

And likewise, try tweaking the plot.

mary rosenblum

See if you can change it to challenge your character in even more personal ways.

mary rosenblum

Don't settle for what the muse serves up first.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes it's just right.

mary rosenblum

And sometimes she's tossing you a ball of silly putty and expecting you to do your share.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour. :-)

mary rosenblum

Stay cool this weekend!

mary rosenblum

I'm supposed to judge an obedience match tomorrow...I hope we don't lose anyone to heat stroke!

mary rosenblum

The one thing that I can't stress too much...and I didn't do it when I was starting out either...

mary rosenblum

is PLAY with your stories.

mary rosenblum

Make changes...try different things.

mary rosenblum

You can always do it the way you first thought of it...

mary rosenblum

but often a diamond is buried in there if you just twist it and tweak it for awhile.

mary rosenblum

So go twist and tweak!

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend all, see you on Sunday for our casual chat.

 

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