Forum Transcripts

Plotting Workshop 6/30/06

Event start time:

Fri Jun 30 19:06:21 2006

Event end time:

Fri Jun 30 20:36:00 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you've had a good week and are enjoying some summer weather that isn't either way too hot or a downpour!

mary rosenblum

I hope most of you were able to visit with Pam Casto, teacher of flash fiction, last night.

mary rosenblum

Alas, the interview was a bit slow in pace...she had some technical troubles.

mary rosenblum

But she was very informative about the nature of Flash fiction.

mary rosenblum

She sent me a host of markets as well as a 'reading list' of what she considers to be superior flash fiction examples.

mary rosenblum

You'll find her list posted in our New Market updates section in Writing Craft.

gskearney

Mary, do you know and/or approve of the Miss Snark blog? I like it, and I've learned a few things too. --gk

mary rosenblum

oh, it's fun. :-) But take it with a grain of salt. From what I've seen of it, she's representing a lot of things as 'everybody does this', and it's not true.

mary rosenblum

But there IS a lot of interesting inside stuff in what she writers...

mary rosenblum

just don't take it as gospel that's true 100% of the time.

mary rosenblum

If you go to a number of writers conferences, you'll hear well established pros in all aspects of the publishing spectrum..

mary rosenblum

flatly contradict each other. :-)

mary rosenblum

Not on the same panel, but you'll hear Ms. X say 'this is always the case' one time...

mary rosenblum

and at the next conference, Mr. Y will say 'that is always the case'...

mary rosenblum

So you listen to everybody politely and begin to winnow things out into a spectrum that runs from 'most people do this' to 'a very few people do this'.

speckledorf

I think the thing to remember with Miss Snark is it is "Her" opinion. But she sure is fun to read:--)

xana

Can you give us an example of a mistruth?

mary rosenblum

Sure.

mary rosenblum

They're not 'mistruths', but what happens is that an individual will recite what he/she wants/needs/likes...

mary rosenblum

as if everybody does.

mary rosenblum

I had a guest not too long ago who instructed people to write vivid, descriptive cover letters about the manuscript they were submitting...

mary rosenblum

because the cover letters hooked her interest.

mary rosenblum

She said that as if it was the way to do things all the time.

mary rosenblum

But most editors HATE cover letters if they have the manuscript in hand.

mary rosenblum

Clearly some editors DO love glowing and lengthy cover letters, but it's uncommon rather than common...

mary rosenblum

but her comments might lead a novice to think everyone wanted it that way.

mary rosenblum

(They don't really HATE them so much as they ignore them and think you're kind of dumb to waste your time when they're going to read the mss anyway)

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing a plotting workshop. Feel free to offer up that stuck plot or idea that needs help. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

xana

So should you send any cover letter at all if you are sending the manuscript?

mary rosenblum

I would. Never underestimate the value of personal connection.

mary rosenblum

Even when I was a raw newbie with no publishing credits to my name, I tried very hard to make my cover letter...

mary rosenblum

casual and almost familiar in tone. :-) Figuring it would sound as if I did this all the time and knew lots of editors. :-)

mary rosenblum

I don't mean overly familiar, but I tried to use a chatty tone, said something nice about a recent issue, said something like...

mary rosenblum

I'm really pleased with this story, and my first thought was your magazine. I love what you've been doing with near future fiction, and I hope you enjoy my venture into that realm.

mary rosenblum

Sure beats Dear Editor, please accept my submission to your magazine.!

mary rosenblum

I don't know if it helped any, but I did start getting comments back from editors pretty quickly.

mary rosenblum

My feeling is that a brief moment of connection makes you more a person to that editor.

mary rosenblum

And that makes that editor want to help you out.

mary rosenblum

They all like to help new writers get started...I have never known one who didn't.

mary rosenblum

Trembling in awe does not impress most editors. LOL

mary rosenblum

But keep it short. I'm talking two very short paragraphs at MOST.

mary rosenblum

Well, we haven't done a hands on workshop for awhile, and I figured this would be a good night.

mary rosenblum

What I thought I'd do is play what if games with a plot or idea that just won't gel for you.

xana

My younger son once sneered re academic papers that they all had the same format: X said this, Y said that, but neither said Z which is what my paper is about

mary rosenblum

LOL, well that IS the format!!! Didn't they teach you that in school???

tory

re: plotting. I have a 6-yr old, very close to my MC, who is the impeturs for the climax of the book. For safety sake, in reality, I do not believe the MC would take her on the journery north when MC's try to catch the kidnappers. So climax and resolution happen without her. I know we should wrap up fairly quickly after the resolution. Okay to drag it out a bit, relocate MC's in southern city so they can fill her in?

mary rosenblum

If the north works better for your climax, tory, just give the MC no choice. :-)

mary rosenblum

That's a major part of plot tweaking...

mary rosenblum

which is what you do between the initial plot idea and the finished book...

mary rosenblum

when you realize your character simply isn't going to DO what you need that character to do.

mary rosenblum

I would backtrack a bit if you need to and weave in a bit of a subplot so that the MC who of course...

mary rosenblum

has no intention of taking this child along, finds himself/herself stuck with the kid and unhappy about the danger...

mary rosenblum

but can't make any other choice.

mary rosenblum

That's the beauty of controlling your universe. With a bit of mindsweat you CAN set up events so that your characters have to do what you need them to do.

mary rosenblum

For example...

mary rosenblum

a plague might break out and this child will be vulnerable...someone from her past might want to kidnap her or even kill her...

mary rosenblum

she might convince someone on the trek to sneak her along.

rick122

Opens up a whoe new set of choices does it not ?

mary rosenblum

It sure does, rick.

mary rosenblum

try /ask in front of your plot idea, geeze.

mary rosenblum

One trait that most new writers share...and I sure did when I started...is 'stiffness'.

mary rosenblum

Thanks, geeze!

mary rosenblum

What I mean by that is that you think up the plot...

mary rosenblum

and then you rigidly stick to it and when you can't go any farther you stop.

mary rosenblum

Plots are infinitely flexible and one change like our child...

mary rosenblum

finding a way to force her presence on the trek...

mary rosenblum

might add all kinds of interesting choices that will benefit the story in the long run.

mary rosenblum

think of plots as rubber.

mary rosenblum

Bend, twist, stretch, and compress at will!

mary rosenblum

When you like the shape you have, keep it. If you don't, keep twisting and stretching until you do.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing a plotting workshop. Feel free to offer up that stuck plot or idea that needs help. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

geezer

Man is to meet new girlfriend's straightlaced marine father. A disaster has occured in his living room the explaination for which the father would never believe. How does the conversation go?"

xana

Geezer, how do you WANT the conversation to go?

mary rosenblum

Well, that's not quite going to work, xana...

mary rosenblum

because the conversation will go however the characters you've created will have it.

mary rosenblum

If you have created a character who won't believe the boyfriend's explanation, he's not going to believe it.

mary rosenblum

So what will he do?

mary rosenblum

He can forbid his daughter to see him any more...but can he enforce that?

geezer

Hysterically funny

mary rosenblum

Well, then you just set up the chain of events so that the readers are giggling by the end. :-)

rick122

I try to have my chacter in my head and then have him/her react to the plot. Helps avoid stifness

mary rosenblum

It sure can, rick. If your character is going to choose a certain path and you need him/her to choose another...

mary rosenblum

you have to find the events to force that character to choose that alternative path

tory

I did want child to go north, but could not think of a good enough reason. MC's are escaping from kidnappers, little money, no car. They are sent on bus through rural Albania. Child is with friends in capital. Can't sneak on bus, would be at risk of kidnap if she goes north, there are NO other forms of travel (save ox cart! And it's a day's journey by bus.). Any ideas?

mary rosenblum

I'd back up and find a way to keep your child with the MC. Don't wait until they're separated and then try to reunite 'em.

mary rosenblum

That might mean unraveling some of your plot, but I bet you can find a way.

mary rosenblum

And hey. If they have to smuggle her onto the bus, you have a GREAT suspense scene as one distracts the driver...

mary rosenblum

or some lucky event happens and they take desperate advantage of it.

janecj333

Often times, the character who you think should do the talking is the one who most shouldn't. An unlikely character...a four-year-old who bursts into the room, a cop who arrives at the door unannounced, etc. ...might be a better dialogue-carrier.

mary rosenblum

Was that in response to geezer's conversation issue, jane? That can certainly change the tenor of a scene.

xana

Would the boyfriend invent a ridiculaous expalnation?

mary rosenblum

That might work. Just don't make him suffer from SCS!

mary rosenblum

(Stupid Character Syndrome)

janp

Crack up laughing as he remembers his own introduction to future in-laws

mary rosenblum

That can by funny no matter what!

rick122

When I d o it that way seems to find it own way.

mary rosenblum

Yes, letting your characters find the way can often help. Just don't let them run off with the story. :-)

rick122

Start simple and have it grow into ridiculaous

mary rosenblum

That works. That's kind of a classic...

mary rosenblum

one mistake leads to a worse mistake and that leads to an even worse mistake. :-) Sort of the classic humor progression.

codeblue

Are there politics in the writing world also??

mary rosenblum

You have politics everywhere, code. I don't think they're any worse or any better than most groups.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes they benefit you, sometimes they work against you.

cosmos

When you start plotting a murder mystery, where do you find possible motives and reasons for murder? Is it a good idea to look in police files or is there a book that tells all? Or should I start and then work on the puzzle to see what needs to happen?

mary rosenblum

Oh, goodness, cosmos, try the newspaper!

mary rosenblum

People kill other people for about any reason you can think of...from none whatsoever to serious issues.

rick122

Watch the news :-)

mary rosenblum

It can be love, money, power, inheritance, jealousy...

mary rosenblum

those are sort of the major groups.

mary rosenblum

And it can be accident...your perp meant to kill someone else, but the wrong person picked up the glass or touched the poisoned rose.

heal

or the tv magazine shows - that is all they deal with anymor

mary rosenblum

Yeah, no kidding.

mary rosenblum

That 'wrong person' killing can give you a host of very nice red herrings!

mary rosenblum

And of course it can be blackmail..that's one way to rid yourself of a blackmailer.

mary rosenblum

And then you have a lovely situation where the murderer is really a nice person who had his/her back to a corner.

mary rosenblum

Or it can be suicide that appears to be a murder...and maybe the suicidee did it to frame someone.

janecj333

I started a sf short story in which a ten-year-old murders an infant. As punishment, he is left where bears can do away with him. Since the original version, I have agonized over whether the child needs to die or can be exiled with his father, and whether a child's execution is too politically incorrect..

mary rosenblum

Well, I would say that from what you tell me here, this is what I would call a skeleton plot...

mary rosenblum

that is, you have a basic conflict and resolution, however you choose to punish the child...

mary rosenblum

but the story needs more in order to make it work. Maybe a character plot that pairs with the justice plot here?

mary rosenblum

If this was my story, I would be asking myself 'who is affected by this?".

mary rosenblum

Who is going to have to deal with this situation.

mary rosenblum

It might be that person's story.

mary rosenblum

try typing /ask in front of your question, code, in your regular send bar.

mary rosenblum

You can send a longer question that way.

mary rosenblum

For example, Jane, I might ask myself if another person realizes that the murder took place because of...

mary rosenblum

something he taught that ten year old...or noticed and did not report to the elders...

mary rosenblum

or was in some other way perhaps morally responsible...

mary rosenblum

even if the was not actually the killer?

mary rosenblum

As far as killing the kid, I don't think that's a matter of political correctness so much as you need that death to matter...

mary rosenblum

if it takes place. Significantly.

mary rosenblum

Want to send me the other part of your question about politics, code? I'm not quite sure what you're asking here.

codeblue

Can't we basically do anthing with politics as long as it is

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing a plotting workshop. Feel free to offer up that stuck plot or idea that needs help. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Try /ask and then type it in your regular send bar. That should work. Don't use the ask a question bar.

xana

Mary, what are some of YOUR major plot issues?

mary rosenblum

Issues? Like what kind?

mary rosenblum

I'm not quite sure what you're asking. :-)

codeblue

Can we do anything with politics as long as it is fiction??

mary rosenblum

good for you, code!

mary rosenblum

You can use real politics as long as you don't libel anyone. That goes for fictional politics, too.

mary rosenblum

Public figures are fair game...just don't libel!

xana

What do you do when you are temporarily stuck? Do you forget what you did earlier in the book/

mary rosenblum

Oh, okay.

rick122

Isnt that what makes it fiction that we do with it what we want?

mary rosenblum

Sure, rick. But if you use real people in your fiction, you can't do ANYTHING you want...you can't libel them.

mary rosenblum

Xana...

mary rosenblum

when I'm stuck, I really do start bending, twisting, stapling, and folding the plot.

mary rosenblum

If I'm a fair ways in and I hit a 'what do I do now' spot...

mary rosenblum

I'll look at major plot points and start asking...what if.

mary rosenblum

What if this didn't happen.

mary rosenblum

What if it happened this way.

mary rosenblum

What if a new character showed up and did this.

mary rosenblum

And sooner or later, I'll get a wonderful cascade of oh, this happens, then this, then this...and hey, look, I'm past that stuck spot!

unstablemolecule

To help avoiding forgetting what you've already written, keep summaries of your stories as they get written

mary rosenblum

And that is VERY good advice when you're noveling. I spent COUNTLESS hours as a novice novelist searching thorugh mss pages because I couldn't remember...

mary rosenblum

something and had to find out what I had done earlier. Big time waste!

mary rosenblum

Now I keep copious notes. I do a time line, a character sheet, a 'universe' sheet (since I build my worlds from scratch)..

mary rosenblum

a 'words' sheet if I"m using another language or have invented a lot of words.

cosmos

I find chapter summaries helpful. I also list what characters are in each chapter and what subplots are used when.

mary rosenblum

that's a very good idea. That way when you need to know when Character X showed up, you know which chapter to look into.

cosmos

Is it okay to talk about your basic plot idea openly or is it best to keep your mouth shut? For example, is it best not to put it in a blog? Or is it okay since it generates interest?

mary rosenblum

Well, I'd do it vaguely, cosmos. Generating interest is good, spoiling the book is not good!

janecj333

Regarding my story...There is wuite a bit more to the plot. It is told from the aunt's pov. Theirs is a closed society that can't tolerate mental illness (would severely impact their small population).

mary rosenblum

Jane I'm glad you have the aunt involved. I realized after the fact that you were having technical troubles...

mary rosenblum

but what I said earlier about your plot (it'll be in the transcript) is that I thought it wasn't complex enough...

mary rosenblum

that the boy kills/boy endures justice wasn't enough.

mary rosenblum

My suggestion was to start asking who was going to be affected by the judgement and why, and perhaps find a stronger conflict there.

codeblue

I'm working on a murder case that involves my step sister and my step father who is affiliated with the airforce...is that ok?

mary rosenblum

Well, it depends on how your family feels about the episode being made public, code, even if you change names.

mary rosenblum

That's between you and them!

codeblue

would hep C be boring??

mary rosenblum

Depends on what you do with it, code.

mary rosenblum

You can make anything compelling. :-)

mary rosenblum

That's your job as a writer.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing a plotting workshop. Feel free to offer up that stuck plot or idea that needs help. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

One thing to remember about plots.

mary rosenblum

A very simple conflict with two choices where the MC is going to have to choose A or B and has no other options...

mary rosenblum

is just that...very simple. If you can give that MC other options you increase the potential outcomes and you generally increase the complexity of the story.

mary rosenblum

One very useful plot format is when you have a character facing a simple A/B outcome...

mary rosenblum

but you have another character who is linked to the event in some way, and who also has choices...

mary rosenblum

that will directly affect that character with the seemingly simple choice facing him or her.

codeblue

that just gave me chills!!

mary rosenblum

What did, code?

rick122

I don't get stuck with where my plot is going but someimes on how to get there

mary rosenblum

Ah, but that's the FUN part of being a writer!

mary rosenblum

You have an infinity of choices facing you!

mary rosenblum

You may have to back up a bit, make the story take a bit of a left turn at an earlier point...

mary rosenblum

but you'll find a way.

codeblue

what you just said

mary rosenblum

I hope they're good chills. :-)

mary rosenblum

Plotwise, the more characters whose choice affect the choices of other characters, the more complex your story becomes.

codeblue

they definitely are!!

mary rosenblum

Good. :-)

mary rosenblum

What I call a 'linear' novel is something that is like a big short story...

mary rosenblum

where you have a main character with a limited number of choices and the story follows those choices in fairly uncomplicated way.

mary rosenblum

Think your basic romance or simple murder mystery.

mary rosenblum

The big, complex novels are those where the choices keep changing as various characters make choices...

mary rosenblum

and those choices then alter the choices facing the other main characters.

mary rosenblum

Your family dynasty novels are great examples of that.

mary rosenblum

They're both good. :-)

mary rosenblum

But if you have a pretty straightforward plot and you're not happy with it, try tossing in a new main character with an agenda...

mary rosenblum

that overlaps your current MC's agenda. As your new character makes choices, that changes your original MC's options and vice versa.

mary rosenblum

If an idea seems too simplistic, for example, find another conflict that will influence it.

mary rosenblum

Use both those conflicts to drive the story.

mary rosenblum

Some of the more powerful mystery writers do that.

mary rosenblum

The main conflict, for example, might be the discovery of the murderer.

mary rosenblum

That's a linear plot and in many mysteries, it alone drives the story.

mary rosenblum

But say, at the same time, the detective in charge of the murder is dealing with a family issue...

mary rosenblum

that includes abuse by some relative...and the murder case begins to indicate that abuse was involved.

mary rosenblum

You might have the detective dealing with the family conflict and the murder conflict at the same time...

mary rosenblum

and some of the child abuse details he learns from the murder investigation influence his...

mary rosenblum

involvement in the family issue or vice versa...

mary rosenblum

and the two issues resolve independently, but each has influenced the other in major ways...neither would have ended the same if they had not been entwined.

mary rosenblum

That's a much larger and more complex story than the simple murder investigation.

mary rosenblum

Never be afraid to add to your plot.

mary rosenblum

Well up to a point!

mary rosenblum

I have known people who ended up with so many entwined plots that readers were overwhelmed.

mary rosenblum

They had no clue what was going on.

mary rosenblum

Don't go THAT far!

mary rosenblum

George RR Martin walks that tightrope and teeters precariously at times. :-)

mary rosenblum

If you want an example of a complex and intertwined batch of plots, read any of his fantasies!

mary rosenblum

(Take notes!).

mary rosenblum

Anyone else have an idea that doesn't quite come together? Or a stuck plot?

tory

re: child. How about the kids are all afraid to go north, having escaped from the kidnappers there. But now, they have helped the MC's deal with some bad dudes in the capital, so feel emboldened to tag along and help when the MC's go north. Much debate and wrestling with emotions, but decide to go. Voila! 6-yr old is along.

mary rosenblum

There you go, Tory!

mary rosenblum

That even sounds as if it will take minimal revising.

mary rosenblum

And if your kid has bonded to one of the people going north...

mary rosenblum

she may really fear that separation and be fierce about coming along...

mary rosenblum

and that might persuade your safety conscious MC

mary rosenblum

I find for myself, the creative heavy lifting comes in that first draft...

mary rosenblum

as I figure out all these 'how to I get there from here now' changes, zigs and zags.

mary rosenblum

Revision is creatively satisfying and MUCH less work!

ltsonya

for awhile i was stuck on my plot only to realize i didn't know enough of my world and characters. as i created the backstory i started to uncover the plot. still working on it though! =)

mary rosenblum

Boy, ain't that the truth, sonya!

mary rosenblum

It's amazing how much plot your world and characters will hand you!

codeblue

I love the ideas!!! but sometimes don't work

mary rosenblum

Yeah, they don't always work. :-) It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle...you try a piece, it looks good, nope won't fit.

mary rosenblum

So you try another. And another. And sooner or later...bingo!

xana

I'm reading an interesting book, Madame Bovary's Ovaries on what makes compelling literature

mary rosenblum

What a cool title! But keep in mind, xana, one person's 'compelling fiction' is another person's 'trash'. Shake some salt on it!

mary rosenblum

There is no gospel where writing is concerned. Some things work better than others in terms of craft, some books 'catch on' and others don't...

mary rosenblum

Learn from what works and does not and keep an open mind.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour.

mary rosenblum

I think I'll go dive back into my current project...an urban fantasy set in Seattle. :-)

xana

It's more of a why is Othello or The Iliad compelling rather than a how to - but one can always read backwards (i.e. get some how to out of why)

mary rosenblum

I guessed it was that, xana.

ltsonya

is it a short story or novel, Mary?

mary rosenblum

It's a novel, sonya. took me a bit by surprise last week. :-) Never say no to the muse.

ltsonya

that sounds like it'll be a lot of fun

mary rosenblum

Oh it is. It gives me an excuse to bring the Fremont Troll to life. I LOVE that troll!

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming all!

mary rosenblum

Do join us on Sunday for our casual chat...

mary rosenblum

same time as the Forum, only we just hang out in the auditorium and talk about whatever.

mary rosenblum

Try googling the Fremont Troll Seattle. It's a cool, more-than-lifesized sculpture under a bridge in Seattle, eating a VW beetle. :-) I visited it one night very late with some friends.

mary rosenblum

Good night all!

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place;

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft: forum transcripts.

mary rosenblum

See you Sunday!

 

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