Forum Transcripts

Research: Fiction and Nonfiction Meet! 3/22/05

Event start time:

Tue Mar 22 12:07:36 2005

Event end time:

Tue Mar 22 13:31:48 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Tuesday Forum.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about research. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I hope you all had a great weekend and see SOME signs of spring at least!

mary rosenblum

Me, I've been busy, between the LR novel course, and other writing projects.

mary rosenblum

Just got an invitation to contribute an original 10,000 word story to a forthcoming anthology.

mary rosenblum

If it opens up to submissions, I'll let you all know.

mary rosenblum

That is one good reason to publish your short fiction...

mary rosenblum

you get INVITED by editors of anthologies to contribute.

mary rosenblum

And it's a good reason, too, to practice writing to a theme...

mary rosenblum

since nearly every anthology has a theme, so it's not a matter of sending 'em something you already wrote...

mary rosenblum

unless you are lucky...

mary rosenblum

but a matter of writing something ON that theme.

mary rosenblum

THat sort of flexibilityh is something that few new writers come equipped with...me neither, back then! :-)

mary rosenblum

But just think, your LR assignments for those of you who are students...

mary rosenblum

are GREAT practice for this. You are writing because you HAVE to turn something in...

mary rosenblum

not because a great story has already popped into your mind.

mary rosenblum

So you are learning to come up with something to write about on demand.

mary rosenblum

And that is a skill that will make you money in your writing career.

mary rosenblum

Always say Yes!

mary rosenblum

Word gets around in the publishing world, who can be counted on to deliver a good story when asked...

mary rosenblum

and it can lead to things like novelization work.

mary rosenblum

Many writers cannot do that.

mary rosenblum

Another good reason to be taking the LR course, for you fiction writers out there!

pook

What's the theme, MAry? SCI FI?

mary rosenblum

YA fantasy, pook. "Wizards'...although they'll take contemporary, SF, or classical fantasy setting...

mary rosenblum

a wizard has to be part of the story.

mary rosenblum

I'll post it if it opens up...it' s not open yet...

mary rosenblum

they're still inviting pros on board.

mary rosenblum

At eight cents a word, it's good pay for fiction since they want 10,000 word stories.

mary rosenblum

And of course, this leads smack into my topic for today...now isn't THAT a coincidence, heheh.

mary rosenblum

Research.

mary rosenblum

This is one of those rare topics where I can talk to both you fiction and nonfiction writers at the same time!

mary rosenblum

For example, in this case, I decided to use synesthesia in my story.

mary rosenblum

And I know nothing about it....so I'm off to do a lot of research.

mary rosenblum

Every plot has been done a thousand times...

mary rosenblum

so where the fiction and nonfiction markets meet is in...interesting information.

mary rosenblum

If your plot has been done...and it has...you have to depend on your characters and SETTING to make your story..

mary rosenblum

stand out from the six other versions of your plot in the slush pile...and they are there.

mary rosenblum

And if you set your story or novel in the real world, you need to get the details RIGHT...

mary rosenblum

or you shatter your readers' belief in your story if they find the flaws.

geezer

What's synesthesia?

mary rosenblum

Oh, an interesting condition, geezer, where the senses are connected oddly...you 'smell' words perhaps, or 'see' sounds.

christopher dale

In my novel, the mission to Iraq during the Gulf War took me over a MONTH looking at old maps, non-classified mmilitary maps of the regions and lots of time to where I could see the area in my sleep.

christopher dale

But in the end, I knew the names of the towns, the airfiled I use and many other areas in Kuaitt and Iraq

christopher dale

To me, it paid off and was well worth the effort. All for 1 chapter. :-)

mary rosenblum

And for a thriller set in the real world, or a mystery, or a mainstream story, you need that verisimiltude.

mary rosenblum

And that research is worth it because it provides continuity throughout your scenes.

mary rosenblum

And even if readers don't consciously pick out inconsistencies, they notice them subconsciously and the story simply feels 'superficial' and false.

mary rosenblum

And if you flat out get something wrong that the reader knows...then you do blow that belief.

mary rosenblum

And for both fiction and nonfiction, you really need to compile way more information than you can use.

mary rosenblum

In nonfiction you will be writing to a tight slant, so only SOME of that information will interest your readers...

mary rosenblum

and you can mine several articles from that deep pool.

mary rosenblum

In fiction, you are creating the iceberg so that the tip can 'float' into your story.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about research. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

You won't need nearly all that information in yoru story...

mary rosenblum

but because YOU know it, again, you'll be able to create consistency from scene to scene.

mary rosenblum

Of course the hard part, in both fiction AND nonfiction...

mary rosenblum

tends to be the task of leaving stuff out!

mary rosenblum

It's so HARD not to use all that wonderful, interesting, cool information!

mary rosenblum

And in nonfiction, alas, that is what costs a lot of new writers sales...

mary rosenblum

trying to include too much in one article.

mary rosenblum

In fiction, you can indeed make your setting 'top heavy'.

mary rosenblum

And it really slows down the pace of the story.

pook

can't the editor strike it out?

mary rosenblum

Well, pook, no. Because it's not the editor's job to MAKE your story good. That is your job. It is the editor's job to POLISH your story.

mary rosenblum

They will take out a few details perhaps, but if your story is ponderous because you have so much exposition in it that the plot is lost to the reader...

mary rosenblum

the changes needed go beyond polishing.

butch

Do you practice generalizing of info before using it in Fic?

mary rosenblum

I'm not sure exactly what you mean, butch? Can you elaborate?

mary rosenblum

Try using /ask if your send bar limits your posts.

owlybear

This morning I wrote an article about chocolate for my column for this week. I reasearched a bit and found out the Mayas used the cacao bean pods for money, so in their case 'Money did grow on trees'... lol

mary rosenblum

And that would be a great hook line, owly!

pjwriter2

What do you mean by it being the editor's job to polish the story?

mary rosenblum

The editor's job is to take what you wrote and make the prose work better. They are experts in prose, and while they will find logic errors...

mary rosenblum

where your blue pickup in chapter one becomes a yellow SUV in chapter six...

mary rosenblum

it is not their job to rewrite your story.

jackie7777

We make the shoe and the editor makes the shoe shine.

mary rosenblum

Ooh, that's a very nice analogy, jackie!!!

gail

In another writing course (which shall remain nameless, and which I never completed) I was told that the mountain of research on a NF topic could be used in separate pieces, depending on the angles. So, the great details and information we gleen is never wasted, per se. Do you agree with that?

mary rosenblum

Of course. How ELSE do you think you make a living in this field! LOL.

mary rosenblum

Yes, Gail, and you should PLAN on donig that...

mary rosenblum

in order to maximize your return on those information hours.

mary rosenblum

I try to write at least a couple of stories using information I've researched...

mary rosenblum

and usually write more. I keep my research notes forever.

mary rosenblum

For example, I have a student who interviewed a sculptor in Canada who is working on a very interesting show...

mary rosenblum

and she has now sold THREE articles to different magazines using that information with a fourth query out...

mary rosenblum

that will probably sell, too.

mary rosenblum

One slant was to pro artists...technique...

mary rosenblum

one was to a 'womens' issues' slant...

mary rosenblum

one was to an 'art lovers'

mary rosenblum

slant...

mary rosenblum

and I forget what the slant is of the fourth...I think Canadian regional readers, but I can't remember.

gail

I presume the same could be said for fiction -- the research could be applied to other similar stories, or to a series of stories. Correct?

mary rosenblum

Yep. And what I have found as a fiction writer...

mary rosenblum

is that once you have researched that 'universe' whether it is real or created...

mary rosenblum

IT will suggest at least one story to you,

mary rosenblum

since every batch of information you dig up will suggeest all kinds of specific conflicts.

butch

Writing with the info so it becomes your own words.

mary rosenblum

Ah, thanks, Butch.

mary rosenblum

Of course.

mary rosenblum

Do realize that editors in the nonfic world will not pay for 'internet research'.

mary rosenblum

IF the readers can do it for themselves, why pay YOU to do it?

mary rosenblum

That is why a live interview or personal experience is a very good idea!

mary rosenblum

In fiction, of course you'll use the details in the context of your story, filtered through the Point of View of your main character.

margieh

Mary, in fiction, using the details and experiences you've gleaned from research will make your story richer? In NF that's true but you can also use the body of your research to draw fresh new conclusions and the details to paint the story?

margieh

...the "story" of the article, I mean.

mary rosenblum

Absolutely, margieh.

mary rosenblum

Let's take a story set in a hospital.

mary rosenblum

MC is a doctor. Plot is that he uncovers a murder made to look like an accidental death. Nice mystery.

mary rosenblum

Been done a thousand times, that plot.

mary rosenblum

Okay, we have two stories on the editor's desk.

mary rosenblum

Story A focuses on the plot. Doctor is pretty much like you and I, but wears green scrubs...

mary rosenblum

doesn't do much different from what we do, talks like us, hospital scenes are the expected...

mary rosenblum

sterile corridors, beds, white sheets, etc.

mary rosenblum

Story two: Doctor uses 'doc lingo' that we can infer meaning of from context...

mary rosenblum

we see specific equipment, catch inside glimpses...

mary rosenblum

of the docs relaxing at lunch, the scrub room before surgery...

mary rosenblum

etc.

mary rosenblum

Which one sells, if the plots are equally good?

mary rosenblum

See what I mean?

jackie7777

Are we talking about research for articles or novels?

mary rosenblum

Both, jackie.

mary rosenblum

They're very much the same, research wise and use wise.

glider

How do you store your research for future retrieval?

mary rosenblum

That depends on how you work, glider.

mary rosenblum

I do a lot of research on the internet now, and I tend to store links in various folders labeled with general topics.

mary rosenblum

BUT...links do go away, so if you find a pertinent website, do copy those important pages to your hard drive so they don't vanish.

mary rosenblum

I have a file cabinet with various folders in it where I store information that may be useful...

mary rosenblum

and a 'dump box' of information that is cool, but I have no idea what I'll ever do with it.

butch

Internet researh. How do you verify its legitimacy?

mary rosenblum

Generally, the research that I use has cross-references to other research, butch.

mary rosenblum

If you cannot cross reference to supporting information, distrust it...might be right, might be wrong.

arfelin

Do you think it's important to do extensive research on character's careers if their work has little to do with the plot?

mary rosenblum

Well, not EXTENSIVE, arfelin..

mary rosenblum

but I can tell you right now, having a best friend who is an ER doc...

mary rosenblum

that I see a lot of novice ms where the doctor does not talk like a doctor.

mary rosenblum

Readers and editors know when a 'specialist' talks just like you and I.

mary rosenblum

By giving that 'professional' the right 'jargon' you allow the reader to believe this person really IS a doctor, lawyer, jocky, drill press operator, or what have you.

mary rosenblum

Remember...you are CREATING reality.

mary rosenblum

That is what makes a story really strong.

mary rosenblum

And you create reality of course with smoke and mirrors...

mary rosenblum

little details that make the reader think...oh, this woman really IS a doctor.

gail

Re: Interviews for research purposes. I have noticed that certain "experts" tend to have formulaic answers to certain questions. So, whether we read about the topic in one mag. or another, the (same) expert will give very similar responses. This tells me that there should be more research done into prior interviews to come up with "fresh" questions that will elicit "fresh" responses. Or, am I picking nits? :-)

mary rosenblum

Not at all, Gail!

mary rosenblum

The art of the interview is really an art.

mary rosenblum

There is the 'canned' interview where the interviewer asks specific questions by mail, email, fax, or phone...

mary rosenblum

and the interviewee merely answers them.

mary rosenblum

Then you have the live interview...which can be more of the same...

mary rosenblum

or you can have a talented interviewer where he/she pays attention to small...

mary rosenblum

clues in the interviewee's responses and follows up on promising tangents...

mary rosenblum

Those can provide more diverse, less standard, and more interesting interviews.

mary rosenblum

Listen to Terry Gross, the NPR interviewer, if you want a good example of strong technique.

mary rosenblum

You can hear her abandon her researched questions at times to follow a new trail. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about research. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

margieh

Are you saying that if I have a mountain of research and I want to use all of it (or as much as possible) I should think in terms of how many different and separate ms I can write as an alternative to trying to fit all of it into one? Writing NF how do you know which is the better path?

mary rosenblum

Margieh, 'fitting it all into one' even in historical research, as you added, is a sure path to rejection from most magazine markets.

mary rosenblum

Even in a book length project you probably won't be able to use all your reseach.

mary rosenblum

Think of making a bead necklace.

mary rosenblum

You start out with a pile of colors and textures and shapes...

mary rosenblum

and you decide that you really like shades of turquoise with the occasional pearl and silver bead.

mary rosenblum

Well, you're left with all the red, yellow, green, etc...beads in the pile.

mary rosenblum

So you do a new necklace and this one is red and yellow..

mary rosenblum

see what I mean?

mary rosenblum

If you used ALL the beads, maybe a few people would like that 'crazy quilt' mix...

mary rosenblum

and buy it...

mary rosenblum

but now you've made ten different necklaces that appeal to nine people who would NOT have bought the mix.

jr souza jr

I would imagine that many if not all editors will utilize some sort of fact checking, in many cases they may (will they?) follow up by contacting sources. This makes me wonder if a reluctant (read hostile) source that added the main selling point to the article was contacted wouldn't ther be a danger to using this info. If it was great stuff and vital how could you safe guard against this porblem (maybe just letting the editor know?)

mary rosenblum

Jr, you're probably not going to USE a hostile source.

mary rosenblum

Even investigative reporters need a certain amount of cooperation from their sources. You cannot quote someone without permission.

mary rosenblum

And yes, with all the recent media embarassment over 'made up' stories and wrong facts...

mary rosenblum

your editor may or may not want to check your sources. Probably NOT unless your story is controversial, or it...

mary rosenblum

will get a lot of high profile attention.

pjwriter2

I have to give my alien a langue of her own where would I

pjwriter2

start to research for that

mary rosenblum

Start with a language that is similar to the one you want to use.

mary rosenblum

Tolkien's Elvish began with Norwegian, according to my Tolkien scholar friend...

mary rosenblum

and although it is NOT Norwegian, it bears a rhythmic and structural similarity that gives it the consistency...

mary rosenblum

of a real language.

mary rosenblum

Every basic language group repeats certain sounds and uses a specific rhythm of accent and non accent.

mary rosenblum

Try reading some basic books on linguistics or language roots, pj.

lil-duv

so research involving a live interview is best, because you can capture the tone of voice, facial expression and body language, as well as having the ability to quote?

mary rosenblum

Sure, if you can do it. But I get interviewed by people on the other end of the country!

mary rosenblum

Pretty spendy for them to do it in person, LOL.

mary rosenblum

But remember...if you do it by phone or even email...

mary rosenblum

you can

mary rosenblum

follow up on interesting responses from your subject.

mary rosenblum

Don't limit yourself to a list of questions you wrote out ahead of time...use that as a start.

mary rosenblum

I always have a list of questions ready for my LR guests...I rarely use more than a few before I start following interesting threads.

gail

Slightly Off Topic (regarding my Neolithic story): You mentioned earlier about getting the characters' language/voices right. I totally agree. However, in my particular story, I've opted for "today's" language, without the use of contractions, and without "elaborate" words or phrasings because A) I needed the dialogue to further the plot, and B) no one knows how they actually spoke. But, will this "modern tongue" hurt the believability of my tale? (P.S. I don't use slang or colloquialisms, etc.)

gail

P.P.S.: I have sprinkled the story with some terms I created that should be understandable in context. :-)

mary rosenblum

Not at all, gail, and thanks for giving me that example...

mary rosenblum

because it leads into something VERY important..

mary rosenblum

which is FAKING reality.

mary rosenblum

And of course, that's what you're mostly going to do in FICTION.

mary rosenblum

Don't FAKE nonfiction facts!!!

mary rosenblum

But in FICTION, you can sprinkle your story with a few realities, and make the facts you simply cannot verify (because your characters are Neanderthals...

mary rosenblum

and they're not around to ask!) seem plausible.

mary rosenblum

One GREAT way to simulate a foreign tongue...

mary rosenblum

is to change the structure of your English.

mary rosenblum

You can't go there, dummy.

mary rosenblum

That's basic modern conversational English.

mary rosenblum

Here's another language:

mary rosenblum

Go there, thou can not, child-mind.

mary rosenblum

This is my alien tongue...

mary rosenblum

and they not only have a different word order from English...verb first then pronoun...

mary rosenblum

they don't believe in stupidity. Your mind is either young or at various stages of maturity...

mary rosenblum

When I need to use a foreign language...

mary rosenblum

and currently it's...are you ready for this? Malay!

mary rosenblum

I'm not about to spend three years learning to speak Malay so that I can write a couple of stories and maybe a novel!

mary rosenblum

BUT...I need to make my character 'speak' Malay when she is with other Malay speakers.

mary rosenblum

So I got a basic language course with tapes of conversations.

mary rosenblum

Which gives me the sentence structure, the tonal sound and rhythms of the speech...

mary rosenblum

as well as a few colloquialisms and some words I can use whose meaning can be revealed by contex.

sailor

The model release form I use when I interview/photograph people states that I can use their photo and biographical material. If I did not use photos, do I still need a release for their biographical material?

mary rosenblum

Not as long as you don't slander them, sailor, and you don't quote them without permission.

mary rosenblum

I would not use their real names, of course...

mary rosenblum

But that's a matter of ethics.

mary rosenblum

I can mention my neighbor by name in an article on the Oregon Beach Cleanup weekend...

mary rosenblum

but I wouldn't do so without asking her first.

mary rosenblum

I'd just give her a fake name.

mary rosenblum

(And, to be honest, I don't ever use real names unless I need to interview purposes...

mary rosenblum

I feel strongly about peoples' privacy),

sailor

But would you get her pemission in writing?

mary rosenblum

No, sailor. I don't need it, if I merely describe her and name her...as long as I don't describe her...

mary rosenblum

say, doing something that is going to earn her public disapproval or is illegal...

mary rosenblum

that would be slander and yes, she COULD sue me for that.

margieh

c. permission to use quotes...can you use interviews others have done with a subject as primary sources? Can you use quotes from those, crediting the source?

mary rosenblum

If you are quoting another's work, or their quoted interviews, you must get permission of the author, ALWAYS.

geezer

Can you use the gist of what a person said from a source without actually quoting him and not have to get permission?

mary rosenblum

Only if you do not identify that person, geezer.

mary rosenblum

If you say, "Mrs. Jones told me that her daughter was dealing drugs', you'd darn well better have her permission and I'd get permission for THAT in writing!

sailor

My article is about 4 teenage girls who crewed on a replica of a pirate ship. It was a two month, 3,000 voyage. I plan to use their real names.

mary rosenblum

Sailor, using real names is really an ethical question and various people feel differently about it.

mary rosenblum

I have had some very uncomfortable encounters with people who not only knew who I was, but had decided they knew a lot about me from what I wrote...mostly erroneous conclusions.

mary rosenblum

It made me VERY aware of just how LARGE the audience is, and how little control you have on who reads what you write...OR...what is written about you.

mary rosenblum

I do not think I would use real names in that case.

mary rosenblum

Why bring thse young women to the attention of every person who picks up a copy of that magazine?

mary rosenblum

They are not all subscribers. Those magazines go into the recycle bin, the trash...

mary rosenblum

and those people may not all be nice people.

mary rosenblum

It is a BIG world out there, and the first time you realize what it means to be so visible, you don't forget!

mary rosenblum

There's nothing legally WRONG with using their names...

mary rosenblum

there are just weird people out there.

gail

Some people enjoy the notoriety...

mary rosenblum

Yeap. They're gonna have to get it from someone else beside me.

geezer

Must you get permissin if you ID the person's organization but not the actual person?

mary rosenblum

No, but be very aware that organizations even MORE than individuals, are sensitive about their public reputations.

mary rosenblum

I interviewed people from DEQ for a mystery a few years ago.

mary rosenblum

They REALLY wanted to know how I was going to represent the organization before they'd even talk to me.

mary rosenblum

(Department of Environmental Quality)

dbamarsha

If you are using personal experiencefor your article, will it be credible to use Internet research and provide a sidebar wtih links for that information?

mary rosenblum

Sure.

geezer

I'll get more specific "A former WHO enployee in Africa thinks..."

mary rosenblum

Well, as long as you don't say anything bad about WHO you're fine, geeze.

mary rosenblum

But if you quote him as telling you about how corrupt the WHO is...

mary rosenblum

you may find letter from a lawyer in your mail!

mary rosenblum

And as the recent court cases have demonstrated...you can not legally refuse to divulge your sources and stay out of jail!

mary rosenblum

A couple of reporters may well see some jail time because they wouldn't divulge their sources.

mary rosenblum

THat first amendment has some legal qualifications...right or wrong.

geezer

I guess my teacher can help me stay out of jail?

mary rosenblum

hey, you libel someone, and you're on your own, geeze!

mary rosenblum

Don't worry, I point such things out in my students' work and I'm sure all the other LR instructors do, too. LOL

mary rosenblum

As far as research goes...wrenching the topic back on course again...

mary rosenblum

the one thing to beware of...

mary rosenblum

is that research can become the most delightful case of writers block you've ever had.

mary rosenblum

If you're researching, you're writing, right?

mary rosenblum

Never mind that not one word has hit the page in three years...

mary rosenblum

I've known this to happen.

mary rosenblum

When you have six binders full of notes and a whole file drawer full of research material...

mary rosenblum

and not one page written...maybe think about what is REALLY going on?

mary rosenblum

Remember this is NOT a PhD thesis...it's a story, or a 1500 word article!

mary rosenblum

In fiction particularly, you need enough details..

mary rosenblum

to make your story feel real to a reader who probably knows less about the subject than you do.

mary rosenblum

A few details can go a long way to making the reader think your main character is an expert.

mary rosenblum

and in the nonfiction world, you're pool of information can fuel a variety of slants and articles.

speckledorf

What about researching something fictional such asl elves? Everyone seems to have their own ideas about them. How do you deal with that? Make up your own rules?

mary rosenblum

Well, until you can interview an elf I

mary rosenblum

d say you're free to make up your own rules.

mary rosenblum

Every time someone tells me, 'But vampires can't do that..'...

mary rosenblum

my answer is the same. When a vampire TELLS me that he can't do that, I'll change it.

mary rosenblum

BUT..

mary rosenblum

dont' do what 80 percent of all novice fantasy writers do...

mary rosenblum

and use Tolkiens' elves!

mary rosenblum

For heaven's sake make up your OWN elven universe! Editors will LOVE you.

mary rosenblum

They're awash in stories set in generic Tolkein universes.

mary rosenblum

And that requires just as much research as making them ancient Norwegians...only you make up this research rather than spending time in the library!

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour, all!

mary rosenblum

See you tomorrow, for our regular open chat!

mary rosenblum

Have a good week!

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place..

mary rosenblum

writing craft: forum transcript.

mary rosenblum

Have a good week, all!

 

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