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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've had a good week.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes,
chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about
transitions between scenes and chapters today because it's something that a
lot of students and novice writers have problems with...
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mary rosenblum
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and it really can make a story
read 'choppy'.
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sayre
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I'm having a hard time going
between past and present scenes
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mary rosenblum
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I
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mary rosenblum
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I"m not surprised, sayre.
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mary rosenblum
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I'ts very difficult to do that
without losing readers as you leap across gaps in time.
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mary rosenblum
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But you can make it work.
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mary rosenblum
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One of the best examples of
this type of transition is Snow Falling on Cedars.
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mary rosenblum
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That book skips from WWII to
the present time and again and usually the transitions very clear.
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mary rosenblum
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One way to make that happen is
to be very careful to give the reader...
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mary rosenblum
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some kind of reference point to
anchor them firmly in that particular point in time.
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sayre
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That is exactally what i'm
trying to in a story right now
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mary rosenblum
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What you can do is as you
change scenes from one time to the next, include a visual clue, or a bit of
dialogue, or a character's thought that instantly tells the reader 'we are
NOW'.
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mary rosenblum
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That's where the 'grunt work'
of writing comes in....finding a way to do that.
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info
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could a reference like looking
out the window, so and so remembered a time.....
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mary rosenblum
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That can make a good
transition into a flashback, info.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are simply switching
between action in this time and action in that time, as happened in Snow
Falling...
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mary rosenblum
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you can't use that sort of
transition because it is not a flashback, it is actual action.
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mary rosenblum
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That's where you need a strong
clue.
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sayre
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A big visual in the story right
now is my characters favorite chair, could i use that as a clue to bring
them back to the NOw?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, that's exactly the kind
of thing that will cue the reader: We are here.
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robastor
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I've found making an instant
mention of the different character also works well.
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mary rosenblum
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That's another way...if you
have different characters in each time period...
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mary rosenblum
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or the setting in general may
cue the reader...an arctic wilderness for this time and a desert for that
time.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes,
chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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andi
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I'm having a hard time making to
people stand out from others
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mary rosenblum
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Do you mean making your
characters seem individual and unique, andi?
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andi
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yes
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, that comes from
simply not knowing your characters well enough. Ideally, you should know
that character someone better than you know your sibling.
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mary rosenblum
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You need to know how that
character is different from all the others...
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mary rosenblum
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and then you can show that to
the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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There are some good articles
on character building on the website...
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mary rosenblum
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in Writing Craft:
Characterization
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andi
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that's my weakness, I guess
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mary rosenblum
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It's everybody's weakness at
first, don't worry. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It takes practice to learn how
to build a realistic person. You'll get there.
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lapart
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Will using head hopping cause a
scene to change?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, if you are using
omniscient POV...which I rarely if ever recommend...then you skip from head
to head at will and your scene...
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mary rosenblum
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only changes when you move to
a new time or place.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...if you are using limited
third, then yes, you really should change POV at a new scene.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good idea to have your
new POV character move to a new location or to skip forward a bit in
time...
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mary rosenblum
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so the scene and POV change
are very obvious to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Otherwise they tend to be
confused by the POV change.
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janecj333
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at some points in a story, it
seems that only bad happens to the characters, then even worse, for scene
after scene...breaking this up with humor, description, flashback and
action help some but the drum beat toward the final disaster beats so clear
for so long...is there a scene of relief I'm not thinking of?
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mary rosenblum
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That depends on how you plot
it, Jane.
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mary rosenblum
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That is the wasy, downhill
route...give your character obstacle after obstacle...
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mary rosenblum
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but you don't have to do it
that way...you can use subplots to give dramatic peaks to your story that
are not simply yet-another-obstacle so that it becomes less a slog to the
climax. :-)
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spider
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Is it okay when writing novels
that involve multiple characters in which each plays a major role in
helping the story to come to its conclusion to switch to different chapters
and tease the reader with partial bits of the story from each characters
viewpoint, or is it preferable to write about each characters part all the
way through?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you're probably going to
want to use a single POV per scene or chapter, spider...
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mary rosenblum
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When you keep switching pov
within a scene...you're writing omnsicient POV.
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mary rosenblum
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The problem with that is that
it pretty effectively prevents us from caring about any one character...
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mary rosenblum
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and so your plot must cary the
entire weight of the story.
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mary rosenblum
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That is not usually the best
way to do it.
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mary rosenblum
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But you can certainly have
multiple POV in a novel...we see the story though this POV for a chapter or
so, then that POV... That sort of thing.
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janecj333
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certainly subplots allow the
characters to have temporary successes
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mary rosenblum
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They do. And they can have
subsidiary conflicts and resolutions that are not directly related to your
main climax.
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mary rosenblum
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Two feuding characters might
fight and realize they respect each other after all...end up laughing.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, your main conflict
remains to be resolved, but we have this moment of strife and triumph.
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mary rosenblum
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lapart, try typing /ask and
then your question in the REGULAR send bar and you can probably send me
your whole question at once. :-)
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carla
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this might be off topic sorry if
is ... I have the beginning chapters done and the last 6 chapters done ...
the beginning travels in present over course of one year ... the ending
chapters are 5 years down the road ... is there one way better than another
to so an accelerated time line
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mary rosenblum
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Well, that depends on where
the events that drive your plot take place, Carla. If the main events take
place mostly in the present, you can stay there...
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mary rosenblum
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and do a dramatic jump to the
future for your final chapters five years later.
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mary rosenblum
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If your events are scattered
between now and five years from now, you may have to do chapters that deal
with that time...
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mary rosenblum
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making that time very clear to
the reader right off...
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mary rosenblum
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and then move to the next leap
ahead in time for the next chapter.
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mary rosenblum
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You can certainly summarize
events... ' for the next four years she dutifully attended Clark University
and got the straight As her father demanded. On graduation day, she felt as
if she was emerging from a tomb...
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mary rosenblum
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and then begin to describe her
looking at the sun on that graduation day, feeling the breeze on her face,
and smiling as her mother babbles about post-graduation plans.
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mary rosenblum
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You have successfully
compressed four years where nothing much happened into a single sentence.
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mary rosenblum
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It is difficult, however, to
keep the reader deeply engaged when you keep leaping ahead into a new time.
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mary rosenblum
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Better, if you can, to do part
of the novel in the present, then skip ahead and continue five years from
now.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes,
chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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lapart
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im having a challenge making
sure I write clearly to get what is
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lapart
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in my head on paper so the
reader and myself can follow
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lapart
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any suggestions?
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mary rosenblum
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I filled in what I guessed was
missing, lapart. :-) If I'm wrong, tell me.
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mary rosenblum
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This is probably a matter of
practicing craft, lapart. You don't sit down at the piano for the first
time and play a Beethoven Piano Concerto.
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mary rosenblum
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I would do some exercises.
Create a scene. Write one about a page long, give it to someone and then
ask them...'what happened?" and 'What did you see?"
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mary rosenblum
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You'll find out that way
whether you got YOUR vision into your reader's head.
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mary rosenblum
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Try the exercise Janet Wellington
offered last night.
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mary rosenblum
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Write a scene using only
visuals.
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mary rosenblum
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Revise it adding sound.
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mary rosenblum
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Revise it again, adding
tactile sensations (touch)
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mary rosenblum
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Revise it again, adding
smells.
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mary rosenblum
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Revise it again adding taste.
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mary rosenblum
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Practice like that, where
you're not worrying 'story' you're worrying about 'craft' will help you.
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pook
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if your pov is not in a certain
scene do you have to use omniscient pov to inform the reader of events?
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mary rosenblum
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I run into this all the time
with novice writers. Most of the time we really don't need the scene.
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah it might be nice if the
reader knew...but there are other ways to let the reader find out what is
important in that scene.
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mary rosenblum
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If you MUST show a scene where
your POVs are absent, I suggest cinematic.
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mary rosenblum
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That is showing us action
without every slipping into any POV.
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mary rosenblum
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For example you might want to
show the murder being committed in a mystery...
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mary rosenblum
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so you describe the action but
you don't get into the POV of either victim or villain.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes,
chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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pook
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can you use narrative?
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mary rosenblum
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You can, but then you, the
author, have made yourself a character here, and have also reminded us that
you are telling us the story.
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mary rosenblum
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It does tend to jar more than
cinematic POV does.
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mary rosenblum
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But I have seen it done successfully.
It can work.
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sayre
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I've been asked to write some
short articles for a couple small papers where I'm from, but i'm having a
hard time writting the proposal for the series since one is a religious
paper and i'm a very different religion
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mary rosenblum
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That can very well be a major
and perhaps insurmountable problem if you're not familiar with the
religion, sayre...
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mary rosenblum
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unless you can ignore religion
all together in what you write. (A gardening column for example)
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mary rosenblum
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You can certainly do it, but I
suggest you get a good reader who does belong to that religion and get that
reader to read over your proposal and articles.
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sayre
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it's a catholic paper and my
husband is roman catholic so i have the means,
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mary rosenblum
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There you go. Use him as an
expert rader. :-)
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janecj333
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now that I'm at the end of a
novel first draft, I see that I've been saying the same thing in different
ways for chapter after chapter, and that I need to just pick one plain
statement of opinion and let that stand...however,I am trusting the reader
to get what I mean. I'm not sure I get what I mean.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm chuckling, jane. That is
more common than you think...
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mary rosenblum
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but in the end, it is really a
good idea to know what you MEAN to say. :-) It's hard enough to make it
clear to the reader at times, when when you do know.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes,
chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will
be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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sayre
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I'm mixed so they want me to
write on cultural diversity
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mary rosenblum
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Cool. So then you're not
really expected to write about religion but rather how it has affected YOU.
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tory
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Mary, what is the best way to
end a chapter? Tie up a scene? Or in the middle so you draw reader to next
chapter?
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mary rosenblum
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YOu have the same question
with a scene, tory.
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mary rosenblum
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Do you end 'at rest' or do you
end in the middle of action to keep the reader reading?
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mary rosenblum
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You can do either.
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mary rosenblum
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If you end with, say,
everybody falling asleep at the end of the day...
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mary rosenblum
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it's a good idea to leave some
kind of hook into the next chapter...
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mary rosenblum
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they haven just hear this
spooky noise in the forest they will traverse tomorrow...
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mary rosenblum
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something like that.
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mary rosenblum
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ON the other hand, readers
tend to hate it when you leave them at a cliff hanger...
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mary rosenblum
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and they have to spend all day
at work...
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mary rosenblum
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wondering what is going to
happen. :-)
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tory
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Is it jarring to vary it in a
novel?
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mary rosenblum
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Not at all. Remember that you
want the rhythm of a long piece to vary...you want slow spots to contrast
with strong drama...
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mary rosenblum
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and some chapters will end
with a 'low note' while others will have the reader rushing to turn the
page.
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lapart
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When a scene changes do you need
to change characters?
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mary rosenblum
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Nope, lapart.
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mary rosenblum
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Maybe we'd better define
'scene'.
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mary rosenblum
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It is a stretch of continuous
actions that takes place in a single place and within a continuous
timeframe.
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mary rosenblum
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Now your characters can drive,
say, from the farm to town and the scene will be the stretch of time during
the drive...
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mary rosenblum
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they're not really changing
'place'. They are in the car.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you have them driving
to the town and then shift to the hotel dining room where they are eating
lunch...that is a scene change.
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mary rosenblum
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If your MC is in the living
room reading, and suddenly it's midnight and the MC is sneaking out to the
barn with a flashlight, that is a new scene.
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circleaj
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Does this mean, you can have a
series of scenes in one chapt
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mary rosenblum
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Sure, circleaj...
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mary rosenblum
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a chapter can be one scene or
several scenes.
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geezer
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Rather than using omniscent POV,
I am changing scenes so I can change POV. This makes for very short scenes.
How short a scene can I get away with?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, a scene can be as short
as you need it to be, but at a certain point, you're not changing scenes,
you're simply using omniscient POV.
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mary rosenblum
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If you hop back and forth
between several POVs and the time and place have not changed, I'd say
you're doing omniscient POV not scene changes.
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circleaj
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I am really new at this, what
does omniscient POV mean?
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mary rosenblum
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omniscient POV is when you
simply shift POV from character to character as needed. Here's an example:
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mary rosenblum
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Jane walked into the
livingroom to find Fred. She couldn't stand Fred. He never took showers.
Fred looked up and saw Jane. Oh wow, he thought. I never get a chance to be
alone with her. Jane stalked over to the table and snatched up a magazine...
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mary rosenblum
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"Hi, Fred," she
said, wondering if she could go wait in the study.
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mary rosenblum
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many novice writers use it
because it seems like a great way to tell the reader EVERYTHING
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mary rosenblum
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But it merely keeps the
characters from ever becoming real to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Because we keep skipping from
POV to POV we never become intimate with any character, we never CARE about
any one character..
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mary rosenblum
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and the plot has to carry the
story.
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janecj333
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what is your feeling about a
novel with multiple points of view that gradually reduces to the pov of
only the mc?
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mary rosenblum
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That can work.
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mary rosenblum
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The danger here is that if you
use quite a few POV at the outset, the reader may not identify with your MC
and ultmately be disappointed when you narrow it to that POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Be sure your eventual MC is
strongest!
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circleaj
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So, How would be best to rewrite
the example so that they
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circleaj
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do become more real to the
reader
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mary rosenblum
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Like this:
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mary rosenblum
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Jane strolled into the
livingroom. Fred. She froze. He never showered. He was creepy. Her stomach
clenched as he looked up and saw her. She stalked over to the table,
feeling his eyes on her like sticky fingers. Maybe she could go wait in the
study.
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mary rosenblum
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Here we have much more sense
of Jane's feelings about Fred and clearly Fred is interested in her. We
don't have to be in his head to know that...
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mary rosenblum
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the 'sticky feel' of his eyes
tells us that and how she feels about it, too.
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circleaj
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I see, it is much better!!!
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mary rosenblum
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It really is. You can 'show'
us what a character like Fred is thinking pretty easily.
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mary rosenblum
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Or your POV can guess it for
us.
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mary rosenblum
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Jane kept watching Fred from
the corner of her eye. Was he going to ask her out? Oh, lord, what would
she say?
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mary rosenblum
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And we now know that Fred is
indeed thinking of asking her out.
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circleaj
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Now I want to finish the rest of
that scene
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mary rosenblum
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Feel free. :-) Now you have a
seed.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, that is a workshop
exercise I use at times.
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mary rosenblum
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I write a bunch of dramatic
little encounters that could turn into a number of stories...
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mary rosenblum
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and give one to each
participant and they get to use that in a story...
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mary rosenblum
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however they want.
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lapart
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using actual places or fantasy
places recommended?
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mary rosenblum
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They both have benefits.
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mary rosenblum
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People LOVE to visit real
places in books.
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mary rosenblum
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I got tons of fan mail from
people who visited Leach Botanical gardens...a setting for one of my
mysteries.
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mary rosenblum
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Some came from out of state on
vacation.
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mary rosenblum
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But you have to get the
details RIGHT.
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mary rosenblum
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A fantasy setting is lots of
creative fun to make...takes more work to build the world, but you don't
run the risk of putting Main Street in the wrong place. :-)
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circleaj
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I will definitly do this
exercise to night.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, good for you circleaj!
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mary rosenblum
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If you're a LR student, maybe
you can use it to create an assignment.
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janecj333
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I';m sorry to come back to
this... in the midst of a general spiraling toward the abyss, disaster
after disaster, when do a characters' emotional wounds become just too
maudlin to be credible? any warning signs?
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mary rosenblum
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I always balance my character
'wounds' against reality, jane.
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mary rosenblum
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I have known quite a few
people during the course of my life who have taken some really really hard
hits from life.
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mary rosenblum
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How did they deal with them? More
importantly, what kind of person dealt with those hits how?
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mary rosenblum
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That is the critical question.
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mary rosenblum
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Some people buckle easily.
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mary rosenblum
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Others watch their families
destroyed, their lives demolished and start over.
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mary rosenblum
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If your character is the type
who can take hit after hit you are fine.
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mary rosenblum
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If he/she is a wilting violet
you are going to overtax your readers' suspension of disbelief.
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circleaj
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I am a LR student, and have to
write my first fiction story.
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circleaj
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and all this I can turn into
exercise
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mary rosenblum
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There you go! Have fun!
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lapart
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what does good dialogue between
charcters consist of?
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mary rosenblum
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Whatever real people would
say, lapart.
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mary rosenblum
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When you are starting, a great
shortcut to 'real' dialogue is to think of someone you know...
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mary rosenblum
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you reminds you of this
character. They have a similar educational and social background.
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mary rosenblum
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Put this real person into your
story and ask yourself...
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mary rosenblum
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how would he say this?
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mary rosenblum
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Then use his (or her) words.
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mary rosenblum
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That way all your characters
won't sound like YOU.
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mary rosenblum
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As you get more practice with
characters, you'll begin to hear each character's voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Ideally, you should be able to
take out all the tag lines (he said) and still know who is speaking...
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mary rosenblum
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by the 'voice'.
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mary rosenblum
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That really doesn't
work...short comments tend to sound alike...
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mary rosenblum
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that that's the difference in
voice you're striving for.
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ltsonya
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I've noticed that with my NANO
novel, my characters will say things like I would. At least I notice it and
will fix it on the 2nd draft
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mary rosenblum
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Good place to fix most things,
lt.
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mary rosenblum
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In a first draft....focus on
getting that story down on paper...or the harddrive.
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mary rosenblum
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Worry about all those
editorial things later.
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mary rosenblum
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Worry about structure later.
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mary rosenblum
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First draft is creation only.
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mary rosenblum
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Put a muzzle on your editor.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm going to send out an email
to all the website people and ask everyone who finished the Nano
challenge..
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mary rosenblum
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to give me name and a few
sentences about their novel.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post 'em on the website.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll email on Dec 1 or
thereabout.
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ltsonya
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I'm almost there! 41,064 words
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mary rosenblum
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You go!
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mary rosenblum
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We have a bunch doing this!
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mary rosenblum
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Even my guest last night,
Janet Wellington, had started...she was WAY behind, she admitted.
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mary rosenblum
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So as a last summary of
transitions...
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mary rosenblum
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Always ground the reader in
the new scene...show us where/when/who right away.
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mary rosenblum
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If you end at a 'resting
point', say everyone is asleep...leave something pending so that we're
enticed to read on.
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mary rosenblum
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Change POV at the scene
breaks, ideally as either time or place shifts to drive home that shift to
a new POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh yes...and let me review the
Rule of Three.
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mary rosenblum
|
A scene (or chapter) needs to
do three things :
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mary rosenblum
|
Advance the Plot.
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mary rosenblum
|
Deepen the Characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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Enrich the Settting.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't settle for two out of
three. Make it all happen!
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I hope you join us here
Sunday for our regular casual chat.
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mary rosenblum
|
No topic, we just get together
to talk about writing.
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mary rosenblum
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Join us here at the same time
on Sunday and talk writing, food, life, whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a lot of fun.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend all. I
CANNOT get it through my head that next Thursday is Thanksgiving!
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geezer
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Will you have the regular
schedule for Thanksgiving Week?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep, sure will.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript of
this in the regular place:
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mary rosenblum
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writing craft: Forum
Transcripts
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mary rosenblum
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circleaj, glad you made it!
You can read the part you missed.
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