Forum Transcripts

Strong Conflict 9/16/05

Event start time:

Fri Sep 16 19:07:57 2005

Event end time:

Fri Sep 16 20:47:11 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all.

mary rosenblum

I hope you've had a good week!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about conflict. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk a bit about conflict today, since a lot of novice writers have trouble figuring out just what makes a conflict work for a story...

mary rosenblum

and as we all know, conflict is the heart of story.

mary rosenblum

Story, as opposed to a 'slice of life' or 'vignette' piece contains two things:

mary rosenblum

A problem that the main character seeks to overcome and either succeeds or fails to overcome..

mary rosenblum

and a change in that character...the real hallmark of story.

mary rosenblum

The question is...when is the conflict strong enough to power the story?

mary rosenblum

That conflict is the heart of your story.

mary rosenblum

You want a good strong heartbeat.

mary rosenblum

BUT many novices err on the side of 'too strong', trying for a real earthshaking plot to drive a short story and then...

mary rosenblum

ending up with a story that reads like the summary of a novel.

mary rosenblum

What is hard to determine when you are first starting out is exactly what makes a conflict strong enough.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about conflict. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

You don't need to have your character try to save the world....especially in a short story!

mary rosenblum

Too many new writers get hung up by trying to come up with a conflict that has 'never been done'.

mary rosenblum

Or one that is so huge that it's going to really compel those readers!

mary rosenblum

And rarely is the conflict what compels the reader...at least not alone. :-)

mary rosenblum

The only thing to worry about is....does the conflict matter to the reade.

mary rosenblum

Will the reader refuse to put the story aside until the conflict is resolved?

mary rosenblum

But doesn't that mean your conflict has to be huge and earthshaking?

mary rosenblum

Not at all.

mary rosenblum

Conflict is always related to character.

mary rosenblum

If your reader cares about your character, then even a small, personal conflict in your character's life will matter to your reader.

mary rosenblum

YOur conflict can be obvious...a muder has been committed and the MC has to figure out who did it...

mary rosenblum

or it can be more internal and subtle. The MC doesn't get along with his father and unless they get it straightened out, his life will be warped.

mary rosenblum

Mystery conflicts are used in all genres.

mary rosenblum

Our MC has to find something out...what happened to his birth sister when the kids were placed in an orphanage...

mary rosenblum

how did Mom really die...

mary rosenblum

that sort of thing.

mary rosenblum

Usually they are paired with a character conflict.

mary rosenblum

Pairing an internal (character) conflict with an external conflict give you the most power in your dramatic arc.

wolf122

What grabs hard-core fans of a genre more--the character or the conflict?

mary rosenblum

There is no single answer here, wolf, any more than there is a 'typical' reader.

mary rosenblum

YOu have readers who love characters.

mary rosenblum

You have readers who love a strong 'gee whiz' plot.

mary rosenblum

YOu will find the readers who love your way of writing.

mary rosenblum

Some imprints in publishing run to 'plot driven' (external conflict) stories and others tend to run more to 'character driven' or internal conflict stories...

mary rosenblum

but that only has bearing on where you should send your query letters.

mary rosenblum

You will generally do better to pair an internal and external conflict even in your short stories.

mary rosenblum

And certainly in your novel.

mary rosenblum

And especially in short stories and the newish genre of 'flash fiction' conflicts can be internal and very subtle.

mary rosenblum

It's not hard to find conflict! The world is full of it. :-)

mary rosenblum

Open up your daily paper.

mary rosenblum

An excellent exercise for you as a writer..

mary rosenblum

is to set the timer for fifteen minutes every day and see how many plot ideas you can get...

mary rosenblum

from a couple of pages of your daily paper.

mary rosenblum

Learning to recognize conflicts that can drive plots is a skill you can improve..

mary rosenblum

just a you build muscle by lifting weights

lore alley

Most of my stories are character driven and although I do pair internal and external conflict, the internal is usually more important. How do I make sure it's strong enough?

mary rosenblum

Internal conflict depends ENTIRELY on the reader caring enough about the characters that their success or failure matters.

mary rosenblum

Your conflict will be strong enough ONLY if the characters are real to us and we care about their futures.

mary rosenblum

Once readers care about your characters and they are real, even a tiny conflict matters because it matters to your characters and THEY matter to us. There's the key.

mary rosenblum

For an external conflict, it needs to be clever.

mary rosenblum

Readers are beguiled by putting clues together in a race to see if they can assemble the picture before the author presents it to them.

mary rosenblum

That operates in mystery, mainstream...any story where we don't really identify deeply with the characters.

mary rosenblum

Look at O'Henry as an example.

mary rosenblum

While his characters are vividly drawn, we don't really become intimate with them.

mary rosenblum

And it is the cool twist at the end of many of this stories that makes his fiction really work.

mary rosenblum

So what makes a conflict strong or weak?

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about conflict. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

starr r

I read that the O.Henry type ending is falling out of favor. What do you think?

mary rosenblum

It has never been really in favor unless you do it as well as O'Henry did it. :-)

mary rosenblum

Those are called punchline stories or twist ending stories...

mary rosenblum

and they can be quite trivial.

lore alley

so are there genres that focus mainly on character driven stories, or is that more dependent on the particular author or publisher?

mary rosenblum

Nearly every genre LOVES character driven stories because they tend to be more successful with readers...

mary rosenblum

but they are quite rare.

mary rosenblum

It is much harder to write a character driven story...a good one...

mary rosenblum

and many many writers do not.

mary rosenblum

If you write strong, character driven fiction it is a BIG plus.

mary rosenblum

Literary fiction does tend to ...as a generalization here...distance readers from teh characters and rather examine them under the lense of the author's eye...

mary rosenblum

but that's the only one I can think of where it seems to be less than sought after.

mary rosenblum

BUT....literary fiction tends to be funded by university rather than readers willing to pay to read. :-)

starr r

So we should just forget about trying for "the twist at the end?"

mary rosenblum

Of course not. I have a twist end story in the '04 BEst of the Year's SF anthology.

mary rosenblum

Just do it well.

lore alley

so how do you create characters that will lend themselves to strong internal conflicts? (or is that a whole 'nother topic? LOL)

mary rosenblum

That IS the topic of this forum, LOL. :-)

mary rosenblum

You give your character a problem.

mary rosenblum

And...ah, here's the key....

mary rosenblum

you make your conflict important to that character and you make that character matter to the reader.

mary rosenblum

Then you're home free.

mary rosenblum

As to internal conflict, let's look at two characters...

mary rosenblum

We have a woman who had a nice middle class upbringing, knew she wanted to be a housewife and raise six kids, got good grades in HS and...

mary rosenblum

did band, clubs, is well socialized with loving, supportive parents.

mary rosenblum

Now we have a girl whose single mother went through a bunch of boyfriends, some of whom tried real hard to get into bed with the daughter...

mary rosenblum

her best friend was diagnosed with AIDS and is dying and lives in her basement because his dad kicked him out...

mary rosenblum

and she thinks she's pregnant.

mary rosenblum

Clearly internal conflict is going to be VERY easy with character two.

mary rosenblum

She is fraught with it! :-)

mary rosenblum

Give your characters flaws. They are not perfect.

mary rosenblum

They are not well adjusted middle class stereotypes.

mary rosenblum

They have a past.

mary rosenblum

They have a history.

mary rosenblum

They have weaknesses that really need to be fixed in order for them to be whole.

mary rosenblum

AND...

mary rosenblum

you can strengthen a weak external conflict through your character.

mary rosenblum

I got a story from a student with a nice solid story arc.

mary rosenblum

Woman is being blackmailed.

mary rosenblum

BUt...what is she being blackmailed for?

mary rosenblum

Someone took pictures of her wearing a bikini when she was in college and on the beach. Now she's a respectable middle aged wife of a lawyer.

mary rosenblum

Well, with nothing else to back it up, it's a weak conflict.

mary rosenblum

She wasn't naked, she wasn't cavorting with another man while married...

mary rosenblum

there's not really enough here to compel the reader.

mary rosenblum

So she needs to up the ante.

mary rosenblum

She could do it of course, by changing that bikini. Now she is cavorting with another man, she's naked and doing a porn pose for a prank...

mary rosenblum

you could find external reasons to make this stronger...OR...

mary rosenblum

you could make it internal. Hubby is very straightlaced. He'll come unglued. He has a terrible temper. He has a real jealousy problem.

mary rosenblum

And because she has become a real person and this blackmail will hurt her, it becomes important to us even though we might personally think...

mary rosenblum

that bikini pictures are pretty silly reasons to blackmail someone. But for HER they are not.

mary rosenblum

So the trivial conflict becomes critical because it is critical to the MC and we care about her.

seigfried007

Not unless he's in an Islamic community

mary rosenblum

That's another external plot element. There are others. :-)

lore alley

so is it possible to have strong internal conflict with a (not perfect of course but) pretty well adjusted character with no life threatening flaws, or are is he going to need an external conflict to kick him into action?

mary rosenblum

Well, your well adjusted character is going to have to have some weakness in order to HAVE a conflict, lore. :-)

mary rosenblum

If she's perfectly balanced and adjusted she'll simply deal with everything you throw her way competently.

roe

maybe he's a minister in a very strict religion and maybe it's skimpier than a bikini and maybe she was horsing around with men

mary rosenblum

That's another external conflict you could develop.

lore alley

but with the jealous hubby, is that internal or external? I thought it would be external because it's the hubby's beliefs/actions that are going to cause her a problem.

mary rosenblum

Well it's more internal because why has she stayed with a man who flies into a rage for such a trivial reason?

mary rosenblum

This is actually a common mistake a lot of writers use...creating an abusive spouse and using it as an external plot element...

mary rosenblum

when it really is internal.

mary rosenblum

Why is she still there? What is it that makes her stick out the abuse?

mary rosenblum

External plot elements arise from events beyond the character's control.

mary rosenblum

Internal conflicts arise from the characters own choices or inability to choose.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about conflict. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

Getting stranded in the wilderness is an external plot element.

mary rosenblum

You didn't have much choice.

mary rosenblum

Needing to stand up to your overbearing father is an internal conflict.

t green

So, would a girl stuck in a small town with her alcoholic uncle who longs to escape but can't - because she's afraid to leave - would this be an internal conflict?

mary rosenblum

The being afraid to leave is the internal conflict.

mary rosenblum

The alcoholic uncle and his behavior are the external.

lore alley

so if something happens to a character that he or she could have prevented, it's not external but internal?

mary rosenblum

Tends to be, lore.

mary rosenblum

If the abused wife accepts that abuse, her willingness to do so, her fear of leaving, are internal.

mary rosenblum

The abuse is the external conflict.

mary rosenblum

Often they are two sides of the same coin...

mary rosenblum

like t green's example.

mary rosenblum

And the abused wife example.

mary rosenblum

But not always.

mary rosenblum

In Hatchet, the very powerful YA about the kid stranded in the wilderness...

mary rosenblum

the external conflict is survival of course, but internally, the kid does some coming to terms with himself that he needs to do.

senicynt

Hi mary, Let's see if I can get this answered befoire it boots me :-) I want to write a short story about a kindergar\ten child walking home from school when an old man tries to coax her into the car with candy. Should I start with mom admonishing her in the morning not to accept candy from strangers, or would it be better to write it from the childs point of view as she wanders home, expressing her fear of the man, etc.

mary rosenblum

Who are your readers, sen? If they're kids, I suspect they'll pay more attention to a peer than yet another lecture from a grown up. I"d use the kid POV.

info

what if the girl does try to escape the alcoholic uncle only to be 'recaptured' by the uncle? Would that be external and out of her control?

mary rosenblum

Yes.

mary rosenblum

And actually, thriller is one genre where the emphasis is on the external plot..

mary rosenblum

although there are generally some internal plot elements.

lore alley

so a character that seems well adjusted but is mired in other peoples problems would probably not be as well adjusted as he seems, and that in itself would be an internal conflict?

mary rosenblum

Aha, lore. Many seemingly 'well adjusted' people are rife with internal conflicts. :-)

mary rosenblum

'Well adjusted' is pretty much a matter of 'behing as expected'.

mary rosenblum

oops...behaving as expected.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about conflict. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

You can strengthen a thin external conflict...

mary rosenblum

by making that seemingly trivial conflict VERY important to a character we care about.

mary rosenblum

The weakest stories are where the external conflict has to carry the entire story...

mary rosenblum

and there is no internal conflict.

mary rosenblum

While you CAN pull it off, generally, it gives you something along the lines of the old fashioned comic book or the 'Conan the Barbarian' stories (which a friend of mine used to write) where it's all sword fights and chase scenes. :-)

mary rosenblum

(And Steve calls them Conan the Mortgage Payment, Conan the College Tuition... you get the drift).

mary rosenblum

If your readers don't care much about your characters, if they are only cardboard...

mary rosenblum

then you will have to work a lot harder to give us a conflict that is powerful enough to hold our attention.

lore alley

sorry if these are silly questions! :-) so if the external conflict is driving the character's internal conflict, would that be a plot driven story as opposed to character driven? and if the character is causing the external events would that be character driven?

mary rosenblum

It's not really that cut and dried, lore, and no, it's not a silly question at all.

mary rosenblum

What determines 'plot driven' and 'character driven' is simply a matter of...

mary rosenblum

which plot is the main one...which is the stronger, external or internal?

mary rosenblum

Which one satisfies the reader more?

mary rosenblum

A lot of this has to do with how good you are at creating realistic characters, too.

mary rosenblum

If the external plot is not all that compelling, but the character we come to love gets 'fixed', then it's a character driven story.

mary rosenblum

If the character is interesting and his/her problem gets taken care of, but the external conflict is more interesting, then it's a plot driven story.

mary rosenblum

I do both, actually, and I do them quite consciously. :-)

lore alley

okay, thanks Mary! I guess it's not as complicated as I'm making it...

mary rosenblum

Probably not, Lore. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's normally something you are going to decide AFTER you write a story.

mary rosenblum

Me, I can be pretty sure which form I"m doing from the get-go, but I've had a LOT more practice at this than you have...

mary rosenblum

and I couldn't when I was at your stage of experience.

mary rosenblum

Don't worry about it before you start writing for heaven's sake!

mary rosenblum

BUT...if your conflict seems weak, the story just doesn't seem to have the impact that you hoped it would...

mary rosenblum

see if you can't 'fix' the conflict.

mary rosenblum

We did it for the 'bikini' example.

mary rosenblum

You all came up with some good suggestions; Make the family Islamic, give him a jealous temper, make it less than a bikini.

mary rosenblum

All three of these suggestions would have sharpened that conflict and made the stakes higher.

mary rosenblum

If you're not sure your conflict is strong enough, ask yourself, 'what does my character have to lose here?"

mary rosenblum

A lot of thin 'action adventure stories', like Conan for example, rely on that external plot only because hey, life is a LOT to lose and the characters are constantly threatened with death.

mary rosenblum

BUT...the real key here is to remember that reader identification is important. While we can sort of imagine someone chasing us iwht a spear or a gun, most of us haven't ever ...

mary rosenblum

experienced anything like that, so it's very unreal. But if you couple that with an internal problem that most of your readers have experienced at least a bit...

mary rosenblum

a sense of personal failure, loss of a loved one...something like that...

mary rosenblum

THAT will seem real and that 'reality' will tint that external plot, making us believe more in that life and death situation.

mary rosenblum

Reason number 435 for why you should work on creating strong and realistic characters.

starr r

You keep saying, Make the Rdr care about your characters. But how do we do that?

mary rosenblum

YOu make them seem real, starr.

mary rosenblum

It takes practice.

mary rosenblum

And it's not something I can explain how to do in twenty five words or less.

mary rosenblum

We've had some forums on it, and there are quite a few articles in Character Development on the website (in writing craft)..

mary rosenblum

that will show you some techniques to do that.

tolkienlvr

Mary, I have in mind in interesting, realistic character with good internal conflict, but am having difficulty adding an external conflict that is not too complicated that matches the internal conflict. (YA novel-length). Are ther any (more) hands on brainstorming/plotting activites you would recommend to help me sort out my plot?

mary rosenblum

Think about what your character need to fix in order to resolve that internal conflict.

mary rosenblum

How might that happen?

mary rosenblum

Now what situation can you create that will force that to happen?

mary rosenblum

For example, if your MC is short of selfempowerment...

mary rosenblum

you can put him/her into a situation where that character has to take charge and become a leader...]

mary rosenblum

even though he/she would rather not!

roe

I have a character who is quite self- sufficient. but she's in danger of having a miscarriage and suddenly she wants the mother who annoys the heck out of her. Is that a good enough fault (for lack of a better word)

mary rosenblum

I don't think you're looking deep enough here, roe.

mary rosenblum

This seems pretty natural to me.

mary rosenblum

Where does that self sufficiency come from?

mary rosenblum

Why has she had to push her mother off to a distance?

mary rosenblum

what is she afraid of?

mary rosenblum

What is she trying to do?

mary rosenblum

Does she see her mother as a metaphor for everythign she does NOT want to be...

mary rosenblum

and suddenly realizes that her mother has made the best of circumstances beyond her control?

roe

actually throughout most of the story she avoids her mother, is very independent

mary rosenblum

Again, the internal conflict lies deeper than her actions, roe.

mary rosenblum

You need to know...and let us guess...WHY she is doing this.

mary rosenblum

What is her mother that she must be avoided?

roe

and yes she doesn't want to be like her mother

mary rosenblum

Why? What does her mother represent?

mary rosenblum

Failure?

mary rosenblum

Servitude?

mary rosenblum

Submission when daughter does not plan to submit to life?

mary rosenblum

YOu really do end up putting your character 'on the couch' and playing psychiatrist to them. :-)

mary rosenblum

So why do you avoid your mother, dear?

mary rosenblum

What do you see in her? What do you think of her life?

mary rosenblum

Why don't you talk to her?

roe

LOL actual her parents are very wealthy snobby and she doesn't like it. feels her mother neglected her for chariities and also tried to contorl her life who she dated etc. had to tow the line meet the right people etc

mary rosenblum

Keep digging, roe. :-) That's the surface. What does she feel deeeep down about that neglect.

mary rosenblum

A primal wail of 'you abandoned me'?

roe

so she resented her but then realized her mother taught her a lot with that charity work especially with children

mary rosenblum

But what you need to reach down for in order to really power internal conflict.

mary rosenblum

and this is why really strong character-driven fiction is so rare...

mary rosenblum

is what it means on the level that we don't normally aknowlege without the help of a psych person.

mary rosenblum

As with your character.

mary rosenblum

It can seem petty if she's just kind of miffed that mom was always busy.

mary rosenblum

But if deep down, she felt abandoned, if that abandoment has colored her relations with others, her own self awareness (I'm not worth my mother's attention)...

mary rosenblum

the only external behavior may be that she is quiet, kind of a social nerd, and lost in her mother's shadow.

mary rosenblum

Inside she can be really hurt.

lore alley

LOL Mary! That's what I was thinking: I need a psychology degree to write the kind of character-driven stuff I want to!

mary rosenblum

Well, reading books on psychology won't hurt you one bit, lore. :-)

mary rosenblum

Mostly you need to think about what motivates people way deep down under the surface.

mary rosenblum

You'll get more reality from thinking about people you know well.

mary rosenblum

Why are they the way they are?

mary rosenblum

And that IS why really strong character driven fiction is less common...many people just don't want to look that deeply into others.

mary rosenblum

It can get pretty dark down there!

mary rosenblum

LOL

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour.

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming all.

mary rosenblum

When that next story doesn't work, see if you can't give it some extra kick by either upping the ante in the external or internal conflict.

mary rosenblum

Good night, all!

mary rosenblum

I'll try and be here on Sunday for our casual chat.

mary rosenblum

I'll be at a dog show.

mary rosenblum

So I may not make it home in time...we'll see.

mary rosenblum

Ha, seig. I saw that. Satisfy the external conflict by writing nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

Remember...buck a word or better versus 5 cents a word.

mary rosenblum

Ha...better than 'you want fries with that?'

sallyk

Next Thursday is Marilyn Strube?

mary rosenblum

Yes, that's it, sally.

mary rosenblum

Night all!

mary rosenblum

I'll post this in Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

 

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