|
mary rosenblum
|
Hello all.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Welcome to our Tuesday Forum.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I now have my first novel
course student manuscripts, so the course is now up and running!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
From now on, I'll include some
novel topics in the Forums, as well as topics related to short fiction and
nonfiction.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I hope you all had a great
weekend, and I'm glad to be back!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about subplots today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Subplots are actually relevant
to shorter fiction, as well.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Although you're not really
going to be able to create much of a subplot in a very short story...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
of three thousand words, say,
you can sneak them in, and of course, if you write longer...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
say 7000 - 10,000 range, you
can indeed make use of them if they work.
|
|
tolkienlvr
|
What are the admission
requirements for the novel course, Mary?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
right now, Tolkien, you have
to be a graduate of one of the LR short fiction/nonfiction courses.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's a pretty advanced course.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But mostly, subplots are used
in novel form.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
These are essentially what
makes a novel different from a short story.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A short story is pretty
linear....it generally follows a central conflict, or interwoven pair of
conflicts (external and internal) focused on the main character...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
who is usually the Point of
View character.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But in a novel, you really
need to broaden out and include more than that linear, single plot line.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Your subplots may include your
primary character but involve him/her with conflicts other than your main
one...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
or they may involve strong
secondary characters and may actually divert briefly from the main plot...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
although they should return to
it at some point.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Not only do they help you get
through that 'desert of the middle' with your readers (and your sanity)
intact...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
they are quite useful for
fleshing out your world.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Your subplots can show the
readers aspects of your world that they might not see if you stuck tightly
to the main plot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you are mostly a short
story writer, it can take a bit of practice to learn to use subplots
effectively.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I think my first novel
qualifies as a 400 page short story, actually. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But they add complexity and
richness to your novel plot.
|
|
burke
|
As a new student, will I be
learning about subplots in future assignments?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you're taking the novel
course, yes, burke.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Subplots aren't generally
addressed in the short fiction/nonfiction course because...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
it takes deft writing to
include a subplot even in a longer short story of over 7000 words.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Most short stories do not
include subplots.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Don't panic if you're trying
to plot your novel and you just don't seem to have any subplots.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Many subplots grow out of the
novel as you write.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
As your secondary characters
become more complex, they will suggest conflicts that you can put to use as
a subplot.
|
|
rey
|
what stories have good subplots?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Most novels, rey.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I've used subplots in some of
my novelettes.
|
|
boxermom
|
Is the novel course part of
Breaking into Print?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's a separate course, boxer.
It's currently being offered to graduates of the Breaking into Print
course.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about subplots today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A subplot is simply a conflict
that is not as large as your central conflict.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It might involve your main
character or a strong secondary character.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you're creating a subplot
in a long short story, it's a good idea to try and involve your POV rather
than a secondary...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
so that you don't have to
break POV and switch to that secondary character.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But of course, in a novel, you
have room to use more than one POV.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And in a novel, if the subplot
involves a strong secondary, it gives you the opportunity to...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
allow the reader to learn
information that the main character does not know.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And that can be to your
advantage.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can bring readers to the
edges of their seats if they happen to know, courtesy of your subplot,...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
that a dragon has moved into
the ancestral castle, but the main character is oblivious as she approaches
the front gate.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I often create subplots 'to
order' when I decide I need to show the reader a particular scene or ...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
allow them to learn some
specific information.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
For example, in the novel I
just completed...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
my main character had no
reason or opportunity to sightsee and I really wanted the reader...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
to see some of the cool stuff
I'd thought up. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And she needed to find out
some particular clues that would matter later...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
so I had her accidentally
become involved in a micro-gravity form of soccer...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Gave the reader a fun tour and
gave me the opportunity to plant clues.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I actually sat down and asked
myself...'how can I make my MC go exploring?'.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And I figured out a way to
make it work.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's the hard work of
writing. :-)
|
|
rey
|
can social confict be a good
subplot
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It can be a great subplot,
rey.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can use social friction
between characters to create tension, to misdirect the reader (if you're
writing a mystery and need to hide clues in plain sight)..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
or to send characters and
readers into new territory.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You might, for example, have
two characters of different races who have to...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
resolve a particular conflict.
Your subplot is how they come to work out their racial prejudices...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
or expectations in the
process.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Parent child tensions, sibling
rivalry, family misharmony....they can all become strong subplots...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and they also allow you to
deepen the characterization of your main character in the process.
|
|
rey
|
I want to be able to show the
pressures of living up to
|
|
rey
|
society standards and subplots
seems a good way to show it.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's a strong enough
conflict to carry a novel on it's own, rey, but it can also make a strong
subplot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And actually, this is a good
example of when a subplot might end up stronger than the main plot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It does happen at times.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You may begin with a subplot,
but it turns out that the subplot has more effect on the story than your
main plot.
|
|
rey
|
Lol not very good with social in
long writing, I'm trying to
|
|
rey
|
show more of my fantasy medieval
world
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Ah, in a fantasy novel, rey, I
suspect your social standard issue will indeed remain a nice subplot. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's not likely to overwhelm
your main fantasy plot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you were writing a
contemporary novel, it might be too strong to remain a subplot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
So why won't it overwhelm a
fantasy novel but could overwhelm a contemporary novel?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Simply because it's how much
the conflict and resolution matters to the READER that gives it strength or
lack thereof.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
An elf struggling with social
pressures is probably not going to matter to the readers as much as whether
the Triad triumphs or the Evil Dark takes over.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But if the novel is set in
today's world, where many readers do struggle with that very issue to some
degree...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
it may be more important to
them than the conflict you chose as your main plot thread.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about subplots today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.
|
|
rey
|
I want to be able to express the
pressure on gender roles
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Nice one and nice subplot,
rey.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
One of the strengths of
speculative fiction is that it allows the author to comment on contemporary
social issues in the guise of the fantasy universe. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Even if your comments are
about the gender role issues in your fantasy world...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
you can make them a metaphor
for real life...or not as you choose.
|
|
jyinxy
|
how do you distinguish when you
have taken a sub plot too far?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You may find that you keep
returning to the subplot, jyinxy, that it's requiring more words to deal
with than your main plot...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
or you give your first draft
to your trusted readers and they say, 'We don't care about the king's
succession...we want to know more about the stableboy finding the dragon
egg!'.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
At that point, you have a
couple of options.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can reduce your subplot to
something that is less compelling.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Or you go with it, and rewrite
the novel to make that stableboy and dragon egg the main plot.
|
|
geoff_m
|
do all subplots need to be
resolved by the end of the novel
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
No, they don't. That's one way
to bind a series together without creating a 'slice of sausage' series.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You can have subplots that
begin in book one, and even though the main plot of book one...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
ends strongly at the close of
the book, that subplot may not be resolved until book two or even three.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you're planning a series
from the get-go, you can weave subplots through the series, ending them
wherever.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I would advise against ending
them ALL in the final chapters of Book The Last or you may overwhelm your
readers...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
with a succession of 'and
then...and then...and then...' as you desperately tie up loose plot
threads! :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But if the readers don't
anticipate a 'next book' be careful of leaving major subplots unresolved.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Your editor probably won't let
you get away with it anyway. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Minor ones you can leave
unresolved, but not bigger ones.
|
|
pook
|
Mary, did you talk yet about
subplots in short stories? Can ethics be a subplot?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
YOu can have subplots in short
stories, pook. I sneak 'em in here and there.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I've got one in the current
novelette I'm working on...a little romance subplot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The hard part as a novice
writer, is that you really don't have the words to spend...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
developing the subplot
separately, as you can do in a novel.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It almost has to be an
integral part of the main plot, woven closely into the main action.
|
|
jackie7777
|
Came in late..How do you
introduce a subplot?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You're fine, Jackie. We didn't
cover this yet. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Good question, too. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
You start a subplot the same
way you begin any story...with an event that propells that character...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
down a particular course of
action.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
For example, I wanted to send
my MC off to play micro-gravity soccer in my novel...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
so I created an encounter that
linked her up with someone who happened to be an avid player...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and gave her reason to want to
get friendly with this person.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Now she has reason to go off
and try this sport, and connect to the people...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
whose input will matter to the
plot later.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I created the event that sent
her down that path.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you want your secondary
character to take us to visit the family fishing village...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
because you want the reader
there, for whatever reason...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
create an event that forces
that character to do so.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
She gets a message that granny
is ill, maybe dying...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
She has to go home for a
religious rite....
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Something.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And you can increase tension
that way.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The leader of the group is
angry at her request...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and they part in anger.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Now we have that to contend
with later, when she might be crucial to his survival...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
should she choose to help him.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Generally, as you begin a
subplot, it'll suggest all kinds of interesting new complexities to you.
|
|
cosmos
|
How many subplots works out
best? Can there be unlimited? Is 2 to 3 subplots best added to the main
plot?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Sorry, the website just ate
the other question along these lines.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yes, you can have as many
subplots as the story can handle. Yes you can have too many.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
How do you know if you have
too many? If your readers have a hard time remembering what is going on
wiht the main plot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I am currently reading for an
award, and one book happens to be book two of a three book series.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I am TOTALLY lost. I could not
tell you for love nor money which is the main plot and which is the
subplot...and there are several major subplots...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is partly because the
book is a slice of sausage series and partly the writers fault...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
for giving her subplots nearly
as much weight as the main plot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is a prime case of too
many subplots and boy does it make this book hard to read!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I have to keep notes, I kid
you not.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
When your readers have to
think back, 'now who is this person, and why are we here?' you have too
many subplots.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
When the readers are startled
when they meet up with the main character {who's this again?} you have too
many subplots.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I tend to veer off into
subplots for a single chapter, and then return to the main plot for at
least a couple of chapters before I go skating off into a subplot again.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And of course, your subplot
can involve your main character, so then you're not moving away from your
main plot.
|
|
gskearney
|
Names are important too. I hate
char's with multiple names.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Good point gsk.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's a good idea to use one
form of your character's name consistently.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Lord Batswaller, or Lord
Kerry, or Kerry the Red, but not all three interchangeably!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Yes, sometimes someone will
have to address Lord Kerry as Lord Batswaller, but try to make the
connection clear to the reader.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about subplots today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you're using a subplot in a
short story, it's a very good idea to involve your MC with that subplot
rather than a secondary character.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The price of switching POV is
greater than you think.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Your subplot may not add
enough to the story to justify the loss of reader engagement with your MC.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
In a novel, it's perfectly all
right to resolve your subplot before the climax of the novel.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
IN fact, that can increase the
impact of your climax.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If your mc, for example, his
an ongoing romantic disconnect with his former fiance...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and they get it resolved, and
then he's at risk at the climax, he has even more to lose.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Readers know he and his fiance
would have lived happily ever after... :-)...and he's about to lose that
opportunity.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And of course, as I mentioned
before, you can use a subplot to show events to the reader...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
that will increase suspsense
later on.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The readers know things that
the main character does not.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They watch that MC walk
blindly into danger.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If you're using limited third
POV, it's a great way to let the reader find out things that the MC does
not know.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Do realize that you can't
easily switch POV in first person.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Your first person POV will be
part of any subplot. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But first person is not
necessarily the best choice for a novel length work.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Even if your MC has a unique
and interesting voice, readers can get tired of it after 350 pages or so.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Actually, if you want a good,
easily accessible of a good first person novel that makes use of subplot...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
read Raymond Chandler's
mysteries.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
He's actually a VERY good
writer.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
His books are all in Phillip
Marlow's voice, and he uses complex subplots along with his main murder
plot.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
His voice is very well
done...he's sort of the standard of noir hard boiled mystery.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And he makes it hard to do
that particular sub genre. You WILL be judged in comparison. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
A very good time to start
thinking of a subplot is when that novel grinds to a halt.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It always does, sooner or
later. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
The beginning is a snap, you
charge into it, everybody gets going and then....
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
sooner or later you slam into
a wall.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
What now? Where do we go?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
What comes next?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If nothing occurs to you, set
up a dart board and throw darts. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Act of nature, attack, injury,
old friend with a past...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
think up as many different
sources of new conflict that you can, stick 'em on the dart board, and
throw a dart at it. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Now make it happen and see
where it leads you.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Some of the strongest scenes
in my novels came about because I had to do SOMETHING...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and just threw a subplot in
there.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
When you do your revision, you
can lay in the 'plants' you need to weave that subplot smoothly into the
story.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But you may be surprised at
what you add to it.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Just exercise some control.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Quite a few novice writers
start these interesting subplots and then they run away with them.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Those characters become as
important as the main characters...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
they start demanding more and
more attention...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and pretty soon you have a
mishmash of about three novels cut and pasted together.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And it just doesn't work. You'd
give your readers migraines ....if they lasted through the whole thing!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If one of your subplot
characters seems to want a novel of his/her own, promise it to that
character...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
and then ruthlessly slap
him/her back into place!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Give that person his own novel
later, but make him behave here. You really are in control, not your
characters.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That 'my character ran away
with me' is something we all like to say.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It has two meanings:
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Meaning one: I came up with a
really cool character and realized he needed to be the main character...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
or Two: I can't tell when my
character is too strong for my story and now I have a mess. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about subplots today. If you're new here, remember that you need to
click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
And it happens to everybody.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I've cut more than one subplot
just because it was getting too involved and powerful for the novel.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Sometimes it ends up as a
short story later on.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
But remember, you are the
boss, and what matters is the story.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
If it detracts from the story,
it does not belong here.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Turn it into a short story, or
use it as the seed for a future novel.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
So subplots have many uses.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They can get your stopped
novel moving again.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They can enrich the
characterization (their best use in short fiction)...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They can take your readers to
places your Main Character won't go.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They can give your readers
information the Main Character lacks.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
They can enrich your universe.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
There is no set number of
subplots that work, but when you and your readers are having trouble
remembering what was going on...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
with your main plot, you
probably have too many subplots, or they are too powerful.
|
|
cosmos
|
If your subplot ties in with
your main plot to deepen it and give it meaning, does that work out best?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
That's exactly what it's
suppsed to do, cosmos.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It can do that in many ways,
but if your subplot does not ADD to your main story, it really should not
be there.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It really should tie in to
your main plot in some way.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Otherwise, it competes with
it.
|
|
geezer
|
Off subject. After the
introduction letter, what is the first lesson in the novel course? I
haven't received the material.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
It's going to be two rough
novel ideas, geezer.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Not very detailed, just
something you want to play with.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, this has been a fun
Oregon Hour. Any last questions before we run out of it? :-)
|
|
tolkienlvr
|
Mary - does completing an ICL
basic course count for the LR novel course, or no?
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I don't know, tolkien. You'll
have to call LR and ask them. They're sister schools.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Well, this has been fun!
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
I'll post this to the usual
place...
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
|