Forum Transcripts

The Internal Plot 3/15/05

Event start time:

Tue Mar 15 12:05:24 2005

Event end time:

Tue Mar 15 13:29:38 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a good weekend and got lots of writing done. :-)

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk a bit about internal plot today, since a lot of novice writers really aren't sure what makes a plot internal or external.

mary rosenblum

And many tend to focus on one or the other...which weakens a story.

mary rosenblum

Essentially, external plot comes derives from an outside problem..

mary rosenblum

outside, meaning from outside the POV character's self.

mary rosenblum

It might be a murder, a sinking ship that strands the POV on an island, a marriage going on the rocks..

mary rosenblum

but it is an outside series of events that create the problem the character must face and resolve...or fail to resolve.

christopher dale

TO me - internal plot is what the character is going through mentally. Like trying to get over the death of his fanmily, who has been brutally murdered, while external would be his searching out and kiiling the murderer.

mary rosenblum

But it's more than just mental anguish, chris. .. It's a flaw in the character that needs to be 'fixed' to make that character...

mary rosenblum

more successful. In your example, if your MC has shut himself away from caring about anybody...

mary rosenblum

because he never wants to feel the agony that the death of his family caused again...

mary rosenblum

he will be forever isolated from human closeness...a self imposed flaw...

mary rosenblum

and if, in the course of defeating the evil king or what have you...

mary rosenblum

he manages to break down that defensive shell and allow himself to care about someone again...

mary rosenblum

he has resolved the flaw that will hamper him as a person.

mary rosenblum

If he's just grieving over his family, but managing to get on wiht his life just fine...

mary rosenblum

it's not really a flaw.

christopher dale

True. And in the course of my novel, my MC finds taht there IS life after his family abut he has to come close to losing EVERYTHING first, before he realizes what he really DOES have.. :-)

mary rosenblum

sounds as if it works, Chris.

bengalrose

So a character struggling with guilt over a death of a loved one for whom he feels responsible, that would be an internal conflict, right?

mary rosenblum

Yep.

bengalrose

The guilt is crippling the character and preventing him from reaching his potential, or solving the crime for that matter. Comming to grips with the guilt and healing himself would be the internal struggle.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, bengal. Unless that character can conquer his guilt, he will be forever crippled by it.

mary rosenblum

And do realize, that generally either the internal OR the external plot is the main plot.

mary rosenblum

In many genres, the external plot is the main plot, and the book is fairly action oriented..

mary rosenblum

think of mystery, most SF/fantasy, etc.

mary rosenblum

When you get into mainstream and romance, you see more internal plots.

mary rosenblum

Romance of course, is pretty categorically internal for main plot in most imprints...

mary rosenblum

since it is the love/loss/regained love that drives most romances.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and today we're talking about internal plot. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

gail

One of my biggest difficulties with internal conflict is how to "identify" it, or whether indeed I should. A person usually doesn't give their "issues" names, so how can we ensure the reader is picking up the "correct" issue? :-)

mary rosenblum

Oh, people rarely give their internal issues a name. Ask anyone what is the central flaw that cripples their personality. Ha!

mary rosenblum

And you rarely if ever TELL the reader what is going on...

mary rosenblum

but think about your friends. How many of them have crippling (to some extent) flaws...

mary rosenblum

like a need to be perfect, a terrible fear of failure, fear of success, fear of closeness, or what have you?

telcontar

What makes it difficult to do both internal and external plots in the same story?

mary rosenblum

It's not at all difficult, telcontar, or it shouldn't be.

mary rosenblum

Every person that I've met so far in my life has some kind of central flaw, myself included...

mary rosenblum

and if you have a hard time finding one for your MC, maybe you just don't know him/her well enough yet.

mary rosenblum

When I first started writing, I tended to find my character's flaw...the one that drove the internal conflict...as I wrote the first few scenes...

mary rosenblum

and revised accordingly. Now I know my characters MUCH better before I start.

gail

hott jonny ASKS: is it possible to move to another area without the main character being present when writing in the first person.

mary rosenblum

While anything is possible in fiction, even that, it is VERY difficult to pull off jonny.

mary rosenblum

That is the limit on first person POV...that character is telling the story. If he/she doesn't know something, neither do we.

mary rosenblum

BUT...it has been done and CAN be done...I've seen...

mary rosenblum

first person alternated with cinematic POV for example... BUT...it is DARN difficult to do well.

mary rosenblum

You might want to rethink and try third person.

telcontar

Then why do most stories focus on one or the other?

mary rosenblum

Well, the stories contain both internal and external plot, but one tends to be somewhat stronger than the other...

mary rosenblum

and is the basis for designating a story 'plot driven' (meaning the external conflict/resolution is stronger)...

mary rosenblum

or character driven (meaning the internal conflict/resolution is stronger).

mary rosenblum

They're both there, but rarely are they precisely equal in strength.

jr souza jr

When we are thinking about internal plots should we be thinking more beyond -- internal conflict and internal struggle. SHould we make sure that this plot has a beginning middle and end with conflict building/resolution etc?

mary rosenblum

Sure, souza. It's the same sort of dramatic arc whether you're working with that external plot or internal...

mary rosenblum

and they may resolve in the same climax or separately.

mary rosenblum

In either case, you're going to build to the climax of the arc and then resolve the conflict.

wingedwarrior24

Do short shorts have external and internal plots?

mary rosenblum

Well, the really good ones do, winged, but of course it's fairly hard to do...

mary rosenblum

like writing poetry, you spend quite a bit of time creating layered meaning so that you can skimp on actual words. :-)

mary rosenblum

And usually one or the other is implied rather than unfolded in the short short.

christopher dale

Again, my novel :-P - One way I do that is through reoccurring nightmares and the "feeling" that the walls move with the ghosts of his family...

mary rosenblum

Another way to do it, Chris, is to show him simply holding people he COULD care about at a distance.

mary rosenblum

"YOu can't get too close, someone might kill you and I don't ever want to hurt that much again!"

mary rosenblum

And showing us, too, that the price of that security is a deep loneliness even in the middle of a company.

mary rosenblum

That shows the reader what is going to cost him in the long run.

butch

Internal plot is what makes the MC real, human?

mary rosenblum

It's a major part of it, butch...I'd say the most important myself.

mary rosenblum

We are all aware of human flaws ...our own and those of others, even if we can't name them precisely...

mary rosenblum

and a character with no human flaw is very cardboard. Think Conan the Mortgage Payment...er Barbarian...

mary rosenblum

(That was an inside joke...a friend of mine Steve Perry, used to write the Conan books and his 'titles' were C the College Tuition...

mary rosenblum

C the Mortgage Payment...'

mary rosenblum

But ol' Conan is a good example.

ling630

Do you have to have both internal and external plots to have a story?

mary rosenblum

You really need both an internal and external plot in order to have a strong story, ling.

mary rosenblum

Certainly there are tons of examples in published books of stories with cardboard characters, and action/adventure plot, and not a lot of quality...

mary rosenblum

But a story essentially calls for a change in your MC, and that internal plot is what changes and how.

mary rosenblum

A very internal plot...no outside conflicts, no pressure...can be pretty dull, too. Mainstream/literary fiction has plenty of examples there, too! :-)

geezer

Does it annoy the reader not to resolve the internal plot. Just allow the other characters to deal with it?

mary rosenblum

Yeah, it tends to, geezer.

mary rosenblum

I think part of the reason for that is, as I said, we are all aware that we have our own internal problems that we may never solve...

mary rosenblum

and when a character we care about resolves his/her problem...it makes us feel that hey, one of these days...

mary rosenblum

And that's a good feeling to most readers.

mary rosenblum

Now in some series, the MC's internal conflict carries on from book to book...

mary rosenblum

and the author may intend to finally resolve it when he/she writes the final book.

babbles

I've got all that, however, I had a hard time deciding when to divulge some of that internal conflict--a secret etc. then resolving without being to quick or obvious.

mary rosenblum

Well, your character should slowly reveal that conflict through his/her actions, dialogue, and thought, babbles.

mary rosenblum

As to resolution, most internal conflicts resolve AT the climax (if it's the main plot it certainly will!), shortly before the climax, or between the climax and the end.

mary rosenblum

Although, as I mentioned, you CAN carry a secondary internal conflict over in a series book as long as your external conflict is the main conflict and IS resolved in book one.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and today we're talking about internal plot. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

gail

If, say, internal conflict is driving the story, with external conflict minimally affecting the plot, should the external plot be climaxed before the internal (or whatever driving conflict) is?

mary rosenblum

Before, during, or after, gail...whatever works for that story.

mary rosenblum

BUT...I would be careful about resolving the secondary conflict whether it's internal OR external too soon.

mary rosenblum

Some readers will be more involved with one or the other no matter which one YOU think is stronger...

mary rosenblum

and if you resolve one say, halfway through the novel...

mary rosenblum

the readers who were really involved with that conflict may drop out.

mary rosenblum

It also leaves the second half of your book with only a single conflict...and both internal/external is much stronger.

t green

in a short, which plot usually stands out more? internal or external? is there a stronger conflict to use in the short? one that "works" better than the other?

mary rosenblum

Oh, gosh, t, read a hundred short stories and you'll find examples of both!

mary rosenblum

I do feel that one benefit of using the internal conflict as your main conflict in short stories...

mary rosenblum

is that it focuses the story on a much narrower landscape...the MC...and you don't have to try...

mary rosenblum

and cram a sweeping action plot into 3000 words.

bengalrose

I'm working on a story in which the MC's job is to travel to foreign sites and train people for jobs that are being outsourced. His internal conflict is that he knows that his coworkers are losing their jobs as a direct result of his actions. But he also knows that he is able to keep working for the company and feed his family by doing what he does. A main external conflict comes from a coworker travelling with the MC who is helping with thetraining, but whos job ends when his replacements are trained.

mary rosenblum

That sounds fine. To me, sounds as if your internal plot is your main plot.

ling630

I wrote a story on a health problem. The main plot was getting the girl to the doctor to make sure we knew what it was. But the secondary plot was that the father didn't believe her. And yet at the same time there was another problem happening at the same time. How do you know which plot to give preference to?

mary rosenblum

Well, ling, YOU have to decide, maybe even as you write the first draft...which story is the strongest.

mary rosenblum

Which conflict/resolution matters more to your MC?

mary rosenblum

Look at bengal's example. We have the internal conflict of the MC's ethic's issue.

mary rosenblum

And the external conflict of a co worker who is maybe sabotaging the job or what have you.

mary rosenblum

Which one has the greater impact? From bengal's description, it sounds as if the MC's decision on his ethical stand carries more weight...

mary rosenblum

although you could reverse that if the co worker is, say, trying to murder our MC. :-)

wingedwarrior24

can you use a MC that already solved an internal problem and use the same MC in a different story with a different internal conflict?

mary rosenblum

Sure, winged. Look at the many mystery series with beloved MCs.

mary rosenblum

Some of them are external plot stories only...but the good ones..

mary rosenblum

tend to give the MC something to work through each time...

mary rosenblum

and sometimes it's a flaw that never really DOES get resolved.

mary rosenblum

Mystery does tend to use external plot as the main plot most of the time if not always.

mary rosenblum

And a MC's flaw...a obsessive sense of justice, for example, my set him/her in harm's way again and again.

babbles

my MC is dealing with the sudden death of her mother does that constitute external plot?

mary rosenblum

That could be both, babbles. Nice example of that, too.

mary rosenblum

She could be dealing with grabby family members who contest the will, all the wearing details of handling the estate (all external) and...

mary rosenblum

her own problem associated with her mother's death (internal conflict), such as facing her need to please her demanding mother that has driven her all her life.

geezer

Sometimes a facet of the personality that is a problem in one setting is a strength in another.

mary rosenblum

Absolutely...look at some of our mystery MCs...

gail

In limited 3rd POV, is it okay to allow internal conflict within the other characters (so long as it's viewed from the POV's standpoint?)

mary rosenblum

Your POV character is not always your main character, gail, although it usually is.

mary rosenblum

Look at Scout in To Kill a Mockingbird. She is the POV. She is not the main character.

mary rosenblum

The hard part with focusing on the internal conflict of characters other than your POV is that readers tend to engage with the POV...

mary rosenblum

so you have to work extra hard to make them care more about the non POV main character whose internal conflict matters...

mary rosenblum

and if your other characters are more interesting than your POV, they are going to become your main characters, like it or not.

butch

Can a MC solve external conflict and only in part interanlly

mary rosenblum

Sure. And this is what you see in many series...but it works best if the external plot is the main plot...

mary rosenblum

readers DO like to see the main plot wrapped up in THIS story, thank you very much.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and today we're talking about internal plot. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

wingedwarrior24

an overweight woman dwells on her weight. Finds someone to love and no longer cares. Internal conflict/resolution?

mary rosenblum

Sounds like it to me, winged. And this might be a story where the internal plot is the main plot.

pook

can you give some examples from lit of external and internal plots?

mary rosenblum

well, let's see if I can find an example that EVERYBODY or nearly has read!

mary rosenblum

Hmmm...okay, let's try Harry Potter...probably most of you have read it or seen the movie.

mary rosenblum

The internal conflict...book one we're talking...is HP's need to matter. He doesn't matter to much of anyone at the start of the book...

mary rosenblum

and of course, by the end, he's a star.

bengalrose

Good book...i'm reading it now, in fact...would you say that Atticus is the MC?

mary rosenblum

My feeling is that it's her brother. It's kind of a coming of age story, told through her eyes.

gail

The Wizard of Oz has plenty of external and internal conflicts ...

mary rosenblum

Yes, it does. Dorothy's of course, is her longing for something other than the gray of Kansas...

mary rosenblum

and her final realization that Oz lies within her world.

mary rosenblum

And external plot I'm sure you all know. :-)

gail

I can't count the times in my life when an "issue" I thought I'd put to rest rears its ugly head again. Is this possible to do with characters, or should their (int.) conflict resolution be more binding?

mary rosenblum

Oh, the more you mimic reality the more real your story, gail...

mary rosenblum

and in the series characters, many of them deal with the same issues in new forms over and over...

hott jonny

im writing a story where my character has to help free a young man who was in the wrong place at the wrong time , but is developing deep feelings for a witness , which is a wonderful story in it self , I don't want the reader to get too deep into his personal life and lose focus on why he is in the story in the first place , but him and her are made for each other , how can I get him to focus on the main story when the readers might want to know more about him and her?

mary rosenblum

You simply have to make your main story stronger and more interesting, jonny.

mary rosenblum

I'm assuming he's either an attorney or PI? Give the external story enough conflicts and action...

mary rosenblum

to keep the readers focused on what will complicate matters next, and show that developing attraction in brief, vivid glimpses.

mary rosenblum

Let the readers imply the rest. That's one way to do it.

bengalrose

Hmmm. Good point. Jem probably is the MC.

mary rosenblum

Jem...I knew I had the wrong name!

mary rosenblum

LOL. Time for me to read it again, obviously.

babbles

She has to deal with organ donation as her mother left strict instructions.

babbles

My heroine and hero both have internal conlicts, however, the conflict connects them to each other in a surprising way.

mary rosenblum

That has the feel of a nice romance plot, babbles. :-)

jr souza jr

Mary this is likely not appropriate for this forum but I wanted to send/ask about an idea generated ny a comment you made earlier. You mentioned Steve Perry who writes the Conan stories but yet the writer/creator of Conan was RE Howard. I am assuming but don't know anything about this but has the character becom public domain of sorts and is the story created by Howard foder for all? This brought me tothinking about writing for series characters that are open to other writer. How would one go about this, is it open to all who are some of these characters, etc. Just thought it might make an interesting forum topic. Sorry for the length of this but that's why I saved it for near end of this meeting

mary rosenblum

Actually, souza, this is a very good question, and I apologize...I should have explained why Steve was writing Howard's books, LOL.

mary rosenblum

Howard has been dead for many years, but the series was of course, owned by his estate...

mary rosenblum

and the books earned lots of money. So the publisher hired authors to write Conan books as 'work for hire' under Howard's name. Nancy Drew and The Hardy Boys both were written that way...

mary rosenblum

Dixon, the author of the Hardy Boys only wrote a percentage of the eventual series. The rest are works for hire.

mary rosenblum

It's a way for pro writers to earn money. You get paid a flat fee...the equivalent of a decent advance for a similar novel...

mary rosenblum

but you have NO rights to the prose and you receive no royalties, most of the time.

mary rosenblum

And no, Conan is not at all in the public domaine!

babbles

at my conference last year, Donald Maass said to always ask yourself--What would make this (scene,action) matter more? to the reader and MC and also ask--What would make it worse?

mary rosenblum

Yep, that's not only a good thing to ask yourself scene by scene, but it's a good thing to ask yourself of the story as a whole.

tory

WORK FOR HIRE? You don't get to use yourown name?

mary rosenblum

Nope. In work for hire you are selling your words, you are not licensing their use, as in regular publication.

mary rosenblum

Some novelizations of movies...where the screenplay came first...are work for hire. Most of them, if not all, I think.

mary rosenblum

They pay is good...but you won't showcase your name.

jr souza jr

But Steve Perry's name does appear on the Conan novles and the Netforce Novels he was invloved in writing?

mary rosenblum

Netforce may be a work for hire series where the author's name appears on the cover...my friend Mike Moscoe writes 'Mech Warriors' books that way..

mary rosenblum

I don't know if Perry's name is on the Conan books..I don't think so, but I could be wrong.

mary rosenblum

Certainly on Nancy Drew and the Hardy Boys, the author's name isn't in the book anywhere.

writermom

what about the Star Wars series of books that came out after the first set of movies the authors name was on each of them

mary rosenblum

Oh yes, several of my sf friends write Star Wars books...

mary rosenblum

the author's name is on the book, but in these cases, it is the SERIES that lures readers, not the author.

mary rosenblum

And no single author wrote the series...they were written by many people from the get-go.

gskearney

Can you use 'work for hire' as publication credit and cite sales? --gk

mary rosenblum

Sure! People who write Star Wars books and the like trumpet those sales. :-) Heck, every Star Wars book makes the NYTimes best seller list!

mary rosenblum

If the series is crummy...maybe not...but if you're otherwise unpublished...

mary rosenblum

it tells an agent or editor that you can write publishable prose and turn a book in on deadline.

gail

Having read nearly every Nancy Drew ever published (once upon a time) I can honestly say that keeping the author's name off the cover is not fooling anyone -- the different "voices" are obvious. So, why do publishers use "work for hire" in this manner? It seems pointless to me...???

mary rosenblum

Gail for every perceptive reader like you, there are the millions who will buy the next Howard or Nancy Drew book because of that name.

t green

how does one go about asking for that kind of work for hire?

tolkienlvr

How do writers get involved in writing works for hire like that?

mary rosenblum

This is yet ANOTHER reason to go to writers conferences and start networking.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes they are advertised...

mary rosenblum

a few years back..lessee...Harper? Can't remember which publisher bought the ND and HB series...

mary rosenblum

but the publisher did advertise for writers for their new paperbacks in the series...

mary rosenblum

but mostly, you meet editors at conferences, or they read your work, and they tell you that they are editing...

mary rosenblum

the new xxxx series and would you like to write one for it.

mary rosenblum

The publicly advertised series will show up in the market reports of the appropriate trade journal and some writers market lists.

mary rosenblum

By trade journal, I mean the magazine read by pros in that genre:

mary rosenblum

Locus for SF, Romantic Times for Romance...

jr souza jr

I checked again Mary and Steve's name is on the conan, Netforce, starwars covers along with other writers if co-written

mary rosenblum

I knew he was on the netforce and star wars covers, souza... :-) All authors names are on there... Wasn't sure about Conan.

mary rosenblum

Haven't read a Conan book since I was about 12.

writermom

is Locus also for fantasy

mary rosenblum

Yes, writermom, and features some horror news but not a lot.

gail

This must sound horribly "out of the loop" but are you saying that Nancy Drew Mysteries are still being written today?

mary rosenblum

They were about six years ago, gail. The publisher that bought them started two new paperback series...Hardy Boys Case Files and ...I forget the new ND titles...

mary rosenblum

and they featured very contemporary action plots with very contemporary settings/characters. BIG departure, believe me.

mary rosenblum

Don't know if they're still being published...check amazon.com

babbles

Thanks Mary, now do you know of a good critique service? :)

mary rosenblum

Yes, talk a look around you in the auditorium, babbles. :-)

bengalrose

I generally am not a fan of book series based on TV or movies, but the Timothy Zahn novels in the Star Wars universe were actually quite good.

mary rosenblum

Some of these series books are written by quite good pro writers, bengal. Timothy has written a number of action-oriented SF novels on his own.

mary rosenblum

So have many other of the Star Wars authors.

tory

Mary, WAY off topic here...I'm attending a big writers conference this week and will have appts. to meet with 2 editors. My question is--since it is 4 days and shared meals--is it "proper" to pitch stories/book ideas/ at times outside appointments to other editors? Or do they want boundaries around ptich times? Obviously--this is a first for me. Thanks.

mary rosenblum

I'ts a matter of judgement, tory. NOTHING ticks an editor off more than to be cornered by a novice waving a ms...

mary rosenblum

or dying to tell Ms Editor about his/her new book.

mary rosenblum

BUT...that said, it's just fine to buy an editor lunch, talk about whatever, ask what that editor is looking for...

mary rosenblum

and if your book seems to fit, mention...BRIEFLY, like in THREE sentences...

mary rosenblum

what it's about and ask if it's something that editor might be interested in.

mary rosenblum

Be gracious if she says no, but if she says YES, it is no longer an unsolicited ms, and you can send it directly to her at the publisher...

mary rosenblum

even if they don't take unagented ms, reminding her that she said she'd like to see it.

mary rosenblum

So the key here is schmooz, be pleasant and conversational, and make the most of any opportunity to slip your novel into the conversation. :-)

mary rosenblum

THAT is how you get around the 'agent first' barrier.

mary rosenblum

But do NOT grab that editor as she hurries off to a delayed lunch and launch into a pitch. The no may take your head off. :-)

gail

Thank you, Mary. I will definitely check up on the new ND Mystery possibility -- she was solely responsible for my (early) love of mysteries so I'd love to return the favour. :-)

mary rosenblum

Do check 'me out, gail. The new series was much more cosmopolitan, but for awhile they were soliciting new writers. They may still be.

mary rosenblum

Hmmm, gail, Aladdin is the listed publisher of the Nancy Drew Girl Detective series...

mary rosenblum

that's probably an imprint of one of the big houses..I don't remember who bought the rights to ND and HB>

mary rosenblum

up...found it!

mary rosenblum

Simon and Schuster.

butch

Didn't Robert Jordan write a Conan novel using his name?

mary rosenblum

Many sf writers have done conan books, butch..

mary rosenblum

Just as many have done Star Wars, Star Trek, and the other series universes.

mary rosenblum

The main thing to remember with internal plot...

mary rosenblum

is that it is a conflict that arises from within the main character..

mary rosenblum

and needs to be resolved in order for that character to succeed in life.

mary rosenblum

It does not have to be life and death, but if it is not resolved...

mary rosenblum

that character will be less happy, less succesful, more likely to die young..whatever.

mary rosenblum

And either the external or internal plot tends to be the main plot, and that is the big difference between 'character driven' and 'plot driven' fiction.

mary rosenblum

I hope you all have a good week!

mary rosenblum

Do drop in tomorrow morning for our open chat...

mary rosenblum

same time, same place, usually here in the auditorium..

mary rosenblum

it's just a chance to get together and visit.

bengalrose

Another Oregon hour gone....*sign

mary rosenblum

yep!

mary rosenblum

Take care, all. I'll post the transcript in Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Bye all!

 

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