Forum Transcripts

The Larger Picture: Creating Your World 2/17/06

Event start time:

Fri Feb 17 19:05:50 2006

Event end time:

Fri Feb 17 20:56:19 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all.

mary rosenblum

I hope you're having better weather than we are. Sheesh.

mary rosenblum

So far I still have power, but I could very well disappear any second...

mary rosenblum

I already have a huge maple tree down on my old chicken house.

mary rosenblum

I really HATE breaking weather records. It's usually SO unpleasant.

andi

i hope there wasn't any chickens in the chicken house

mary rosenblum

Nope. All critters are fine so far.

mary rosenblum

We have extremely low temperatures for the NW...in the low teens...and 50 mph sustained winds.

mary rosenblum

NOT nice.

mary rosenblum

Here, it's spring. Garden up, daffodils blooming. That was yesterday.

mary rosenblum

But I'm here... :-)

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about this 'bigger picture' because it is one of the things...

mary rosenblum

that beginning writers tend to not be aware of and, like deep limited third POV and good characterization...

mary rosenblum

it is one of those things that will get you to the top of the slush pile.

mary rosenblum

It's really hard when you're starting out to understand why YOUR story, which is nice and sound doesn't sell when others do.

mary rosenblum

There are many pieces to this jigsaw puzzle and it takes awhile to really become...

mary rosenblum

aware of what makes up a 'good story'.

mary rosenblum

When we start out, everybody sees 'plot'. And that's it.

mary rosenblum

And that's only the backbone.

mary rosenblum

A whole lot of 'flesh' goes onto those plot bones.

mary rosenblum

Your ability to imply a much larger world than your stage is one of those key techniques...

mary rosenblum

that will set your plot ahead of plots that simply end at the edge of the stage.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Of course if you write in a speculative fiction universe or you want to set your story in a realistic Togo or Bahrain, you're going to have...

mary rosenblum

to do a lot of world building just to create that stage in the first place.

mary rosenblum

But a very common novice problem is a world that really does cease to exist at the boundaries of the story.

mephistopheles

How can we create the larger picture in our fiction without putting too much meat on the bones that it breaks down on the author and the reader?

mary rosenblum

Well, you can create a mammoth, that's fine. You just want to avoid creating a FAT mammoth.

mary rosenblum

The richer and more realized your world is the better...the boundary between 'enough' and 'too much' world is ...does it bog down or obscure your story?

mary rosenblum

That is something you have to learn by doing.

mary rosenblum

When I started out, I trimmed tons of rich world out of my stories. I created a lot of fat mammoths!

mary rosenblum

Slowly I learned how to use a very few key details to imply a LOT of unverse.

mary rosenblum

That universe is there for the reader to pay attention to if he/she has time in the story...

mary rosenblum

but it's background...it does not get in the way of the story.

mary rosenblum

It's a nice, three dimensional background and the horizon is a loooong way from the stage...but it's still background.

mary rosenblum

So don't expect..

mary rosenblum

to get it perfect right off.

mary rosenblum

This is really where readers will help you...

mary rosenblum

not family or friends, but other aspiring writers.

mephistopheles

How do you know when to trim the FAT from the mammoth so to speak when your a novice writer and everything is so grand and vivid in our minds eye?

mary rosenblum

One way is to put it aside for awhile...a couple of weeks...less if you work on another project..

mary rosenblum

to sort of 'clear your palette'.

mary rosenblum

Read it again. You know what your plot is...note where you begin to feel 'impatient'. Such and such should be happening NOW.

mary rosenblum

And trim those sections so that it DOES happen now.

xana

It might help to rewrite your story as a play - that necessarily minimizes description.

mary rosenblum

Wellll...maybe. I find that people who start out doing screenplay form have a hard time with prose fiction.

mary rosenblum

It tends to separate the description so completely that it's hard to weave it back in.

mary rosenblum

YOu WANT description. You want the smallest amount that will have the greatest impact.

geezer

I am still confused. What's the difference between description and "telling".

mary rosenblum

It totally depends on how you handle it, geeze.

mary rosenblum

And that's where the craft comes in.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

What I often see is the author dropping in to say 'this is what the world is like, this is how everybody lives'...

mary rosenblum

if you convey that information through your characters' actions and dialogue...the readers discover your universe the same way...

mary rosenblum

you discover a new town when you move there...by going and doing, by talking to people.

mephistopheles

so you want the reader to learn about the world as they venture through it rather than us the writer telling them what the world is made up of.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, meph.

mary rosenblum

If you want your readers to know that your town is a tiny rural crossroad...

mary rosenblum

with maybe a gas station, a store, a feed store, and a tavern...

mary rosenblum

instead of telling the reader that Zero, Montana was founded in 1811 and after a brief population boom had withered away to a population...

mary rosenblum

of 320, a gas station...etc....

mary rosenblum

You can have your MC go to the store, pass the gas station, think that Wally said at the Grange poker game last night...

mary rosenblum

that he's thinking about closing the feed store and where the heck are you gonna get...

mary rosenblum

stuff now? You're gonna have to drive clear into Springdale...

mary rosenblum

or he might be talking to the cashier...

mary rosenblum

and by watching and listening, we get the history of the town.

mephistopheles

almost like the fiction of Dungeons and Dragons, you played it with no knowledge of the world or adventure you entered, but small details came out and if you could remember them later it might prove life saving for all in your party.

mary rosenblum

Yeah, meph. Very much like that. :-) I've always said that D&D was good practice for writers.

mephistopheles

I can see why it helped me begin this journey into writing

mary rosenblum

It gives you some good practice. :-)

mary rosenblum

The more you can slip details in through your characters' behavior or conversation...

mary rosenblum

the more real your world becomes...

mary rosenblum

and the larger picture comes in as we find out more than what is directly necessitated by the plot.

mary rosenblum

We might find out through our MC that most people in the town feel that the town died...

mary rosenblum

because a large, wealthy cattle family moved to another state...

mary rosenblum

and nobody came in to fill the gap...

dfitz

there is another side to this beast. Sometimes as a novice, I feel that I don't have enough meat on the bones. Then what?

mary rosenblum

That's also very common, dfitz. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's a matter of taking your story one scene at a time. What does my reader see here? Ask yourself.

mary rosenblum

Then ask yourself, what else can I show them without adding much?

mary rosenblum

You'd be surprised at how much a few words can convey.

mary rosenblum

Let's start with some straight action and build a larger picture.

mary rosenblum

Cain walked down Main Street, his back straight. When he came to the barbershop he paused and looked through the plate glass window. Then he turned and went into the hardware store.

mary rosenblum

So let's build context for this action.

mary rosenblum

Let's put it on a stage and see just how big we can make it.

mary rosenblum

Right now it's very bare. We have a Main Street, a barber shop, a hardware store, and Cain.

mary rosenblum

What do you want the reader to know about this town?

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Suggestions?

info

it's size

andi

how clean and prosperous

mary rosenblum

Those are good details....is this a city or a rural town?

speckledorf

He kicks a can off the sidewalk into the gutter...

mary rosenblum

That's good. Now we see litter especially if he kicks it into the gutter and we see it land in a shoal of trash.

dfitz

where located, time period.

mary rosenblum

Yeah, we need to know that.

janp

present, past, time and time of year

mary rosenblum

Season is good, too.

mary rosenblum

We'll make this an opening scene...

mary rosenblum

So we need to know all that ...who/when/where...

mary rosenblum

Okay, let's put him in a western town in say, the 1800s.

mephistopheles

this here be a western town ya'll ;)

mary rosenblum

I agree, meph.

xana

You want the reader to notice anything that will be important later - maybe glass in the street

mary rosenblum

Yes, if you can slip in a plot element that's very good. :-)

mary rosenblum

Okay, so we have our western 1800s town, and it's a rural cattle town, not real prosperous...

mary rosenblum

and trouble is brewing...and its summer.

mary rosenblum

So let's walk Cain down that street again.

info

wouldn't a specific year be needed or is general era like 1840's be enough

mary rosenblum

If you need a specific year....so that the reader realizes that a particular event is about to happen...

mary rosenblum

you can give the year, but usually, suggesting the approximate time works better.

cosmos

If it's 1840, you have to contend with a lot of mud and hardship.

mary rosenblum

Yep, and that will show in the street, even in summer.

ltsonya

how about some guy hanging outside the barborshop waiting with a bottle of booze

mary rosenblum

And that suggests that this town doesn't have a really tough 'clean up the street' type sheriff..

mary rosenblum

And that's part of that larger picture.

mary rosenblum

Cain walked down Main Street, sweat already soaking his shirt. A bony team switched flies in front of the feed store and ...

mary rosenblum

a couple of kids played a game in the sun-baked rutts in the street. When he reached the barbershop he stared through the grimy glass window...

mary rosenblum

Bobby wasn't there. He looked toward the saloon but he wasn't one of the early drunks propped up...

mary rosenblum

in the shade with their bottles.

tory

Cain side-stepped a pile of horse dung,jumped onto the rickety boardwalk and sauntered into the mercantile. "Howdy, Clem."

mary rosenblum

Good, tory. Again we have the 1800s realism of the horse piles in the street, the rickety boardwark (not a very prosperous town)...

mary rosenblum

and a mercantile on the street.

dfitz

Would he saunter, stroll, or edged his way down Main street work also.

mary rosenblum

His gait would certainly reflect his emotion at the tie, dfitz, you're right.

mary rosenblum

We'd know how he was feeling by the way he walked.

mary rosenblum

He might march if he's off to collect his no good baby brother who is probably drunk again.

xana

Perhaps he is looking for someone - doesn't see him in the barbershop so tries the hardware

mary rosenblum

Yep...that's the basic action...

mary rosenblum

and while he's doing that, you are going to be feeding us all the info about your world you can...

mary rosenblum

but only through what he sees, does, says, and thinks.

mary rosenblum

A few well placed character thoughts can help a lot.

mephistopheles

thinks to get a hair cut and shave but there is a line so he goes to the tavern to get some whiskey to quench his thirst and he notices a card game going on with the sheriff sitting at the table and money piled pretty high on this gamble.

mary rosenblum

There you go...and we now know something about the sheriff and maybe about the way the town gets run...

mary rosenblum

and this might be where he thinks about it.

tryagain

knowing that the Sheriff is a wimp and won't call him out

mary rosenblum

Exactly try.

xana

doesn't sound like the same Cain

mary rosenblum

Well, Cain's pretty fluid right now. :-)

mary rosenblum

If this was an actual story, you'd know a lot more about Cain and what was going on before you started slipping in details. :-)

bud

was once a railhead for cattle drives

mary rosenblum

That's another thing we could learn through Cain's musings...or maybe somone in the barbershop mentions...

mary rosenblum

how he heard a rumor that the railway might open up the railhead again.

mephistopheles

cain is both a good guy/bad guy character at the moment we just don't know what side he is on, but his actions and words will give us a clue before to long.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, meph.

mary rosenblum

That's why it's a good idea to do you tweaking of description on a revision...don't sweat it on the first draft.

mary rosenblum

Just get the story down.

mary rosenblum

But then, once you know for sure what's going on, then you can layer in those details so that we know everything we need to know...

mary rosenblum

without you needing to break into the story and tell us.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

xana

What the reader probably doesn't want is a detailed description of that barbershop

mary rosenblum

Good point, xana...

mary rosenblum

probably not...and this is what someone was asking about earlier...how do you know when it's too much.

mary rosenblum

Here, if the details of the barbershop weren't important to understanding what is going on..

mary rosenblum

they would be 'fat' in this story.

mephistopheles

well that is good if he is a stranger to that town, but he might know the barber and they nod in recognition of each other and Cain heads for some beer and Whiskey.

mary rosenblum

Yep, and how he greets people in the town will tell us a lot about how he is perceived by people...

mary rosenblum

and where he stands in 'town society'.

jyinxy

Cain walked down the wooden planked walkway that lined main street. The only sound head was that of Cain's leather chaps rubbing against one another in tune with his every step?

mary rosenblum

That gives us some good visuals, jyinxy, and we know what he's dressed in.

cosmos

The post office or the diner or the barbershop might be the center of gossip. The conversation at church with the ladies sitting around quilting might be the real power center that influences the town.

mary rosenblum

And you can make that clear to the reader thrhough Cain. He might pass the church where the ladies have...

mary rosenblum

set up their quilting frame and the sudden silence and Cain's awareness of their hostile stares...

mary rosenblum

tells us how he is perceived by the 'polite society' of the town...

mary rosenblum

and you might even have him think how they've already convicted him...

mary rosenblum

and THAT is a nice plot clue...aha...he's in trouble.

jyinxy

are we looking through cain's eyes or through someone elses who is watching him and what he is doing?

mary rosenblum

We've been doing these in limited third POV jyinxy...

mary rosenblum

You'd make the narrative distance as small or great as your story demanded. I tend to go for near-zero narrative distance myself. :-)

mary rosenblum

Depends on what your story requires.

xana

well... with a name like Cain....

mary rosenblum

Aha...yes! Choose your names with an eye to nuance.

geezer

But, Miss Violet blushes

mary rosenblum

And there's a nice clue. No need to say 'Miss Vioilet was sweet on him.'. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

info

unless someone is coming out of the barber shop that is relevent to the story

mary rosenblum

this goes back to Xana's comments on the extraneous details of the barbershop...sorry I didn't get it up in time.

mary rosenblum

Well, info, even then, you might only want to include a detail or two about the shop if it's the person who matters...

mary rosenblum

rather than describe the entire inside.

cosmos

a lot of great dialogue can happen in a barber shop

mary rosenblum

Oh yes...always think of the 'talk spots' you can include in scenes if you need to get information on...

mary rosenblum

your world to the reader. You can overhear a lot in bars, stores, restaurants and the like.

mephistopheles

I see what you mean now about FAT in a story, I never thought of it like that I guess, man I learn something every week.

mary rosenblum

-)

geezer

What would you do for a battlefield where the lay of the land is essential to understanding what is going on? (And they don't have a map ;-))

mary rosenblum

That's tough, geeze. If I am writing a story with a limited third POV and my POV doesn't have reason to...

mary rosenblum

think about that layout...he's not the commander...I might work really hard to find a secondary character...

mary rosenblum

who might have a plausible reason to think about it or say something about it or describe it.

mary rosenblum

That's where you put in the 'writer sweat'...

mary rosenblum

finding a way to do what you want to do.

mary rosenblum

And the tough part is that it DOES need to be plausible.. or readers instantly...

mary rosenblum

realize why that corporal marched into your scene, described the battlefield in detail...and marched out again. LOL

geezer

Can't slip in a little telling if it's a novel?

mary rosenblum

Sure you can. The 'telling police' will not call at your door. But you know what? If you don't slip in that 'telling'...

mary rosenblum

you'll have a stronger novel. :-) That's rather important.

info

maybe a good way to do that would be to have the corporal comes in and tells the commanding officer about the layout as if he was ordered out as a scout

mary rosenblum

Good idea, info. Or he might be reporting what a scout just reported to him...

mary rosenblum

you can always find a way to make it work. Just takes some creativity is all. :-)

ltsonya

Mary, how do you go about creating your worlds? I find there's so many details and things to think about I get overwhelmed

mary rosenblum

Lt, I would just have at it. Write down everything you can think of about your world...create a mountain of details...

mary rosenblum

and then, when you've sort of 'run dry' of details, sort through them a bit.

mary rosenblum

What's the ecology like, the weather? What is the history of these people, this place? What is the culture like...

mary rosenblum

You can group the details into different files. I usually do several.

mary rosenblum

World. Culture. Characters...that sort of thing.

mary rosenblum

Then, when you're weaving details into your scenes, you can pick the more evocative...

mary rosenblum

It's a good idea to ask yourself...what is the most important feature of this landscape. What will have the greatest impact on the reader...

mary rosenblum

That way you can use the fewest details and get the greatest effect.

mary rosenblum

I keep evoking sumi painting...it's a good example.

mary rosenblum

That is the Japanese brush painting form where a very few brush strokes...

mary rosenblum

suggest an entire landscape.

ltsonya

do you imagine a lot of this stuff first before you start making files?

mary rosenblum

Sure. I have a novelette on contract, due in June. Sf. I'm setting it on Europa. I have been building Europa and its ocean ecology under a sky of solid ice for weeks now...

mary rosenblum

and walking around in it a lot lately.

mary rosenblum

I'll probably actually start the story this weekend.

xana

thesmell of hundreds of fish being hauled into the boat in nets and the screeching of gulls swooping overhead

mary rosenblum

Nice Xana...you have managed to give us sight, smell, and hearing all in one passage. Good for you.

ltsonya

so does it help if you imagine yourself there walking down the streets or trudging through mountains?

mary rosenblum

It does me, because I AM my character as I write a story. So I'm going to be walking around there. (It's cold).

mary rosenblum

I find that the more time I spend 'looking' at scenes in my proposed story, the more I can recognize the key details...

mary rosenblum

they're the ones I remember most easily and vividly.

mary rosenblum

If something is important to your plot, you can spend more details on it. Like our poker game in the bar...

mary rosenblum

if the gambling sheriff is a big part of our Cain plot, then he can notice a lot of details there.

mary rosenblum

But if he notices tons of details about that barbershop...that's going to bog the story down. It just doesn't matter to the plot. Fat.

xana

Mary, is your POV from Europa or outside?

mary rosenblum

He's human. More or less. :-)

mary rosenblum

When you're finding those evocative details to create a world, see if you can find details that convey more than you MUST have.

mary rosenblum

If you look back at Xana's example of fishing boats, nets, fish smell, and gulls...

mary rosenblum

maybe all we needed was the ocean. So we could have had our character...

mary rosenblum

just walk down to the beach.

mary rosenblum

But the boat and fish tells us waht people do for a living along this shore.

mary rosenblum

We now know that this is a fishing community...and that might not be critical to the plot...

mary rosenblum

but it gives us that 'larger world'...

geezer

Europa's sky refracts light so they walk around in rainbows!

mary rosenblum

That would be cool. :-)

mary rosenblum

What I see in a lot of novice ms is barebones setting that tells us nothing.

mary rosenblum

We see a street. No description...just a street.

mary rosenblum

But even a few key details can tell us so much...as we found out through Cain.

cosmos

Mary, when you are working on a novel, creating a new world and characters, do you find it's important not to work on another novel project at the same time or do you find that it helps to be able to flit from one to another? Is there wisdom in narrowing your work on writing projects?

mary rosenblum

That entirely depends on how you write, cosmos.

mary rosenblum

Some people can shift from project to project, others cannot.

mary rosenblum

I tend to have about three going at once. For me, working on another novel or story is the same...

mary rosenblum

as putting that 'laid aside' project away for a month. I come back to it with clear eyes..

mary rosenblum

And can see things I couldn't see when I was working on it because I was too close to it.

mary rosenblum

Three is about the right combination for me. :-)

mary rosenblum

But my good friend is a one project writer...

mary rosenblum

she works on it until it is done, then she starts the next project.

mary rosenblum

You do what works for you. :-)

ltsonya

how do you work out your technology for your sci-fi or magic in fantasy? it's such a huge part of the world, do you ever feel that those ideas just don't seem 'unique' enough?

mary rosenblum

Everything has been done, sonya. Just make your magic consistent, think it out thoroughly. Make your technology believable...

mary rosenblum

It's what you do with world and character and plot that makes your story unique, not your idea.

mary rosenblum

I often give writers workshops an exercise where I give them a plot and character and they all use that plot and character...

mary rosenblum

to write a story. And you know what? They are utterly unlike each other.

mary rosenblum

A really new 'wow, that's cool' idea is wonderful when you get it, but not at all necessary and hardly common! LOL

lore alley

Mary, can I ask a completely unrelated question? I'm sitting here with a story ready to write, staring at the screen, and I have absolutely no clue how to begin. Any quick advice? (lol)

mary rosenblum

Just start writing and tell yourself that you'll fix the beginning later.

mary rosenblum

I HATE beginnings!

mary rosenblum

I frequently do them way later.

mary rosenblum

This has been a fun 'Oregon hour' and I still have electricty! Wasn't sure about the roof a couple of times there.... :-)

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place...'Writing Craft: Forum Transcript'.

lore alley

thanks mary!

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming, all!

cosmos

Thanks, Mary. I appreciate your clarity about writing projects. I thought that when you were walking around on Europa for a couple of months, you were only doing one novel project at a time.

mary rosenblum

Oh, no. I"ve also been playing with a mystery set in OR, and a dark urban fantasy full of very strange beings.

mary rosenblum

Good night all, thanks for coming!

mary rosenblum

See you all on Sunday.

 

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