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mary rosenblum
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Hello all.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you're having better
weather than we are. Sheesh.
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mary rosenblum
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So far I still have power, but
I could very well disappear any second...
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mary rosenblum
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I already have a huge maple
tree down on my old chicken house.
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mary rosenblum
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I really HATE breaking weather
records. It's usually SO unpleasant.
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andi
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i hope there wasn't any chickens
in the chicken house
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mary rosenblum
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Nope. All critters are fine so
far.
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mary rosenblum
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We have extremely low
temperatures for the NW...in the low teens...and 50 mph sustained winds.
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mary rosenblum
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NOT nice.
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mary rosenblum
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Here, it's spring. Garden up,
daffodils blooming. That was yesterday.
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mary rosenblum
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But I'm here... :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about this
'bigger picture' because it is one of the things...
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mary rosenblum
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that beginning writers tend to
not be aware of and, like deep limited third POV and good
characterization...
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mary rosenblum
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it is one of those things that
will get you to the top of the slush pile.
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mary rosenblum
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It's really hard when you're
starting out to understand why YOUR story, which is nice and sound doesn't
sell when others do.
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mary rosenblum
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There are many pieces to this
jigsaw puzzle and it takes awhile to really become...
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mary rosenblum
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aware of what makes up a 'good
story'.
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mary rosenblum
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When we start out, everybody
sees 'plot'. And that's it.
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mary rosenblum
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And that's only the backbone.
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mary rosenblum
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A whole lot of 'flesh' goes
onto those plot bones.
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mary rosenblum
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Your ability to imply a much
larger world than your stage is one of those key techniques...
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mary rosenblum
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that will set your plot ahead
of plots that simply end at the edge of the stage.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the
larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight
will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Of course if you write in a
speculative fiction universe or you want to set your story in a realistic Togo or Bahrain, you're
going to have...
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mary rosenblum
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to do a lot of world building
just to create that stage in the first place.
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mary rosenblum
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But a very common novice
problem is a world that really does cease to exist at the boundaries of the
story.
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mephistopheles
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How can we create the larger
picture in our fiction without putting too much meat on the bones that it
breaks down on the author and the reader?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you can create a
mammoth, that's fine. You just want to avoid creating a FAT mammoth.
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mary rosenblum
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The richer and more realized
your world is the better...the boundary between 'enough' and 'too much'
world is ...does it bog down or obscure your story?
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mary rosenblum
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That is something you have to
learn by doing.
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mary rosenblum
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When I started out, I trimmed
tons of rich world out of my stories. I created a lot of fat mammoths!
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mary rosenblum
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Slowly I learned how to use a
very few key details to imply a LOT of unverse.
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mary rosenblum
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That universe is there for the
reader to pay attention to if he/she has time in the story...
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mary rosenblum
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but it's background...it does
not get in the way of the story.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a nice, three dimensional
background and the horizon is a loooong way from the stage...but it's still
background.
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mary rosenblum
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So don't expect..
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mary rosenblum
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to get it perfect right off.
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mary rosenblum
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This is really where readers
will help you...
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mary rosenblum
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not family or friends, but
other aspiring writers.
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mephistopheles
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How do you know when to trim the
FAT from the mammoth so to speak when your a novice writer and everything
is so grand and vivid in our minds eye?
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mary rosenblum
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One way is to put it aside for
awhile...a couple of weeks...less if you work on another project..
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mary rosenblum
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to sort of 'clear your
palette'.
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mary rosenblum
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Read it again. You know what
your plot is...note where you begin to feel 'impatient'. Such and such
should be happening NOW.
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mary rosenblum
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And trim those sections so
that it DOES happen now.
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xana
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It might help to rewrite your
story as a play - that necessarily minimizes description.
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mary rosenblum
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Wellll...maybe. I find that
people who start out doing screenplay form have a hard time with prose
fiction.
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mary rosenblum
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It tends to separate the
description so completely that it's hard to weave it back in.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu WANT description. You want
the smallest amount that will have the greatest impact.
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geezer
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I am still confused. What's the
difference between description and "telling".
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mary rosenblum
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It totally depends on how you
handle it, geeze.
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mary rosenblum
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And that's where the craft
comes in.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the
larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight
will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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What I often see is the author
dropping in to say 'this is what the world is like, this is how everybody
lives'...
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mary rosenblum
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if you convey that information
through your characters' actions and dialogue...the readers discover your
universe the same way...
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mary rosenblum
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you discover a new town when
you move there...by going and doing, by talking to people.
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mephistopheles
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so you want the reader to learn
about the world as they venture through it rather than us the writer
telling them what the world is made up of.
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, meph.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want your readers to
know that your town is a tiny rural crossroad...
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mary rosenblum
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with maybe a gas station, a
store, a feed store, and a tavern...
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mary rosenblum
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instead of telling the reader
that Zero, Montana was founded in 1811 and after a brief population boom
had withered away to a population...
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mary rosenblum
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of 320, a gas
station...etc....
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mary rosenblum
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You can have your MC go to the
store, pass the gas station, think that Wally said at the Grange poker game
last night...
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mary rosenblum
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that he's thinking about
closing the feed store and where the heck are you gonna get...
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mary rosenblum
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stuff now? You're gonna have
to drive clear into Springdale...
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mary rosenblum
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or he might be talking to the
cashier...
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mary rosenblum
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and by watching and listening,
we get the history of the town.
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mephistopheles
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almost like the fiction of
Dungeons and Dragons, you played it with no knowledge of the world or
adventure you entered, but small details came out and if you could remember
them later it might prove life saving for all in your party.
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah, meph. Very much like
that. :-) I've always said that D&D was good practice for writers.
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mephistopheles
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I can see why it helped me begin
this journey into writing
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mary rosenblum
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It gives you some good
practice. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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The more you can slip details
in through your characters' behavior or conversation...
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mary rosenblum
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the more real your world
becomes...
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mary rosenblum
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and the larger picture comes
in as we find out more than what is directly necessitated by the plot.
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mary rosenblum
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We might find out through our
MC that most people in the town feel that the town died...
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mary rosenblum
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because a large, wealthy cattle
family moved to another state...
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mary rosenblum
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and nobody came in to fill the
gap...
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dfitz
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there is another side to this
beast. Sometimes as a novice, I feel that I don't have enough meat on the
bones. Then what?
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mary rosenblum
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That's also very common, dfitz.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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It's a matter of taking your
story one scene at a time. What does my reader see here? Ask yourself.
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mary rosenblum
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Then ask yourself, what else
can I show them without adding much?
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mary rosenblum
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You'd be surprised at how much
a few words can convey.
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mary rosenblum
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Let's start with some straight
action and build a larger picture.
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mary rosenblum
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Cain walked down Main Street, his
back straight. When he came to the barbershop he paused and looked through
the plate glass window. Then he turned and went into the hardware store.
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mary rosenblum
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So let's build context for
this action.
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mary rosenblum
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Let's put it on a stage and
see just how big we can make it.
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mary rosenblum
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Right now it's very bare. We
have a Main Street, a barber shop, a hardware store, and Cain.
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mary rosenblum
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What do you want the reader to
know about this town?
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the
larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight
will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Suggestions?
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info
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it's size
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andi
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how clean and prosperous
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mary rosenblum
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Those are good details....is
this a city or a rural town?
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speckledorf
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He kicks a can off the sidewalk
into the gutter...
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mary rosenblum
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That's good. Now we see litter
especially if he kicks it into the gutter and we see it land in a shoal of
trash.
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dfitz
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where located, time period.
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah, we need to know that.
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janp
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present, past, time and time of
year
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mary rosenblum
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Season is good, too.
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mary rosenblum
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We'll make this an opening
scene...
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mary rosenblum
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So we need to know all that
...who/when/where...
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mary rosenblum
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Okay, let's put him in a
western town in say, the 1800s.
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mephistopheles
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this here be a western town
ya'll ;)
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mary rosenblum
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I agree, meph.
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xana
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You want the reader to notice
anything that will be important later - maybe glass in the street
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, if you can slip in a plot
element that's very good. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Okay, so we have our western
1800s town, and it's a rural cattle town, not real prosperous...
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mary rosenblum
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and trouble is brewing...and
its summer.
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mary rosenblum
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So let's walk Cain down that
street again.
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info
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wouldn't a specific year be
needed or is general era like 1840's be enough
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mary rosenblum
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If you need a specific
year....so that the reader realizes that a particular event is about to
happen...
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mary rosenblum
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you can give the year, but
usually, suggesting the approximate time works better.
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cosmos
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If it's 1840, you have to
contend with a lot of mud and hardship.
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mary rosenblum
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Yep, and that will show in the
street, even in summer.
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ltsonya
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how about some guy hanging
outside the barborshop waiting with a bottle of booze
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mary rosenblum
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And that suggests that this
town doesn't have a really tough 'clean up the street' type sheriff..
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mary rosenblum
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And that's part of that larger
picture.
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mary rosenblum
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Cain walked down Main Street, sweat
already soaking his shirt. A bony team switched flies in front of the feed
store and ...
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mary rosenblum
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a couple of kids played a game
in the sun-baked rutts in the street. When he reached the barbershop he
stared through the grimy glass window...
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mary rosenblum
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Bobby wasn't there. He looked
toward the saloon but he wasn't one of the early drunks propped up...
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mary rosenblum
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in the shade with their
bottles.
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tory
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Cain side-stepped a pile of
horse dung,jumped onto the rickety boardwalk and sauntered into the
mercantile. "Howdy, Clem."
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mary rosenblum
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Good, tory. Again we have the
1800s realism of the horse piles in the street, the rickety boardwark (not
a very prosperous town)...
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mary rosenblum
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and a mercantile on the
street.
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dfitz
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Would he saunter, stroll, or
edged his way down Main street work also.
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mary rosenblum
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His gait would certainly
reflect his emotion at the tie, dfitz, you're right.
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mary rosenblum
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We'd know how he was feeling
by the way he walked.
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mary rosenblum
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He might march if he's off to
collect his no good baby brother who is probably drunk again.
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xana
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Perhaps he is looking for
someone - doesn't see him in the barbershop so tries the hardware
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mary rosenblum
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Yep...that's the basic action...
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mary rosenblum
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and while he's doing that, you
are going to be feeding us all the info about your world you can...
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mary rosenblum
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but only through what he sees,
does, says, and thinks.
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mary rosenblum
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A few well placed character
thoughts can help a lot.
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mephistopheles
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thinks to get a hair cut and
shave but there is a line so he goes to the tavern to get some whiskey to
quench his thirst and he notices a card game going on with the sheriff
sitting at the table and money piled pretty high on this gamble.
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mary rosenblum
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There you go...and we now know
something about the sheriff and maybe about the way the town gets run...
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mary rosenblum
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and this might be where he
thinks about it.
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tryagain
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knowing that the Sheriff is a
wimp and won't call him out
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly try.
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xana
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doesn't sound like the same Cain
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mary rosenblum
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Well, Cain's pretty fluid
right now. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If this was an actual story,
you'd know a lot more about Cain and what was going on before you started
slipping in details. :-)
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bud
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was once a railhead for cattle
drives
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mary rosenblum
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That's another thing we could
learn through Cain's musings...or maybe somone in the barbershop
mentions...
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mary rosenblum
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how he heard a rumor that the
railway might open up the railhead again.
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mephistopheles
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cain is both a good guy/bad guy
character at the moment we just don't know what side he is on, but his
actions and words will give us a clue before to long.
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, meph.
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mary rosenblum
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That's why it's a good idea to
do you tweaking of description on a revision...don't sweat it on the first
draft.
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mary rosenblum
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Just get the story down.
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mary rosenblum
|
But then, once you know for
sure what's going on, then you can layer in those details so that we know
everything we need to know...
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mary rosenblum
|
without you needing to break
into the story and tell us.
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the
larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight
will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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xana
|
What the reader probably doesn't
want is a detailed description of that barbershop
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mary rosenblum
|
Good point, xana...
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mary rosenblum
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probably not...and this is
what someone was asking about earlier...how do you know when it's too much.
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mary rosenblum
|
Here, if the details of the
barbershop weren't important to understanding what is going on..
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mary rosenblum
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they would be 'fat' in this
story.
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mephistopheles
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well that is good if he is a
stranger to that town, but he might know the barber and they nod in
recognition of each other and Cain heads for some beer and Whiskey.
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mary rosenblum
|
Yep, and how he greets people
in the town will tell us a lot about how he is perceived by people...
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mary rosenblum
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and where he stands in 'town
society'.
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jyinxy
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Cain walked down the wooden
planked walkway that lined main street. The only sound head was that of
Cain's leather chaps rubbing against one another in tune with his every
step?
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mary rosenblum
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That gives us some good
visuals, jyinxy, and we know what he's dressed in.
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cosmos
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The post office or the diner or
the barbershop might be the center of gossip. The conversation at church
with the ladies sitting around quilting might be the real power center that
influences the town.
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mary rosenblum
|
And you can make that clear to
the reader thrhough Cain. He might pass the church where the ladies have...
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mary rosenblum
|
set up their quilting frame
and the sudden silence and Cain's awareness of their hostile stares...
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mary rosenblum
|
tells us how he is perceived
by the 'polite society' of the town...
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mary rosenblum
|
and you might even have him
think how they've already convicted him...
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mary rosenblum
|
and THAT is a nice plot
clue...aha...he's in trouble.
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jyinxy
|
are we looking through cain's
eyes or through someone elses who is watching him and what he is doing?
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mary rosenblum
|
We've been doing these in
limited third POV jyinxy...
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mary rosenblum
|
You'd make the narrative
distance as small or great as your story demanded. I tend to go for
near-zero narrative distance myself. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
Depends on what your story
requires.
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xana
|
well... with a name like
Cain....
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mary rosenblum
|
Aha...yes! Choose your names
with an eye to nuance.
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geezer
|
But, Miss Violet blushes
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mary rosenblum
|
And there's a nice clue. No
need to say 'Miss Vioilet was sweet on him.'. :-)
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about creating the
larger picture in your fiction. I've published seven novels (number eight
will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
|
|
info
|
unless someone is coming out of
the barber shop that is relevent to the story
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mary rosenblum
|
this goes back to Xana's
comments on the extraneous details of the barbershop...sorry I didn't get
it up in time.
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mary rosenblum
|
Well, info, even then, you
might only want to include a detail or two about the shop if it's the
person who matters...
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mary rosenblum
|
rather than describe the
entire inside.
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cosmos
|
a lot of great dialogue can
happen in a barber shop
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mary rosenblum
|
Oh yes...always think of the
'talk spots' you can include in scenes if you need to get information on...
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mary rosenblum
|
your world to the reader. You
can overhear a lot in bars, stores, restaurants and the like.
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mephistopheles
|
I see what you mean now about
FAT in a story, I never thought of it like that I guess, man I learn
something every week.
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mary rosenblum
|
-)
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geezer
|
What would you do for a
battlefield where the lay of the land is essential to understanding what is
going on? (And they don't have a map ;-))
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mary rosenblum
|
That's tough, geeze. If I am
writing a story with a limited third POV and my POV doesn't have reason
to...
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mary rosenblum
|
think about that layout...he's
not the commander...I might work really hard to find a secondary
character...
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mary rosenblum
|
who might have a plausible
reason to think about it or say something about it or describe it.
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mary rosenblum
|
That's where you put in the
'writer sweat'...
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mary rosenblum
|
finding a way to do what you
want to do.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
And the tough part is that it
DOES need to be plausible.. or readers instantly...
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mary rosenblum
|
realize why that corporal
marched into your scene, described the battlefield in detail...and marched
out again. LOL
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geezer
|
Can't slip in a little telling
if it's a novel?
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mary rosenblum
|
Sure you can. The 'telling
police' will not call at your door. But you know what? If you don't slip in
that 'telling'...
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mary rosenblum
|
you'll have a stronger novel.
:-) That's rather important.
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info
|
maybe a good way to do that
would be to have the corporal comes in and tells the commanding officer
about the layout as if he was ordered out as a scout
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mary rosenblum
|
Good idea, info. Or he might
be reporting what a scout just reported to him...
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mary rosenblum
|
you can always find a way to
make it work. Just takes some creativity is all. :-)
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ltsonya
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Mary, how do you go about
creating your worlds? I find there's so many details and things to think
about I get overwhelmed
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mary rosenblum
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Lt, I would just have at it.
Write down everything you can think of about your world...create a mountain
of details...
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mary rosenblum
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and then, when you've sort of
'run dry' of details, sort through them a bit.
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mary rosenblum
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What's the ecology like, the
weather? What is the history of these people, this place? What is the
culture like...
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mary rosenblum
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You can group the details into
different files. I usually do several.
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mary rosenblum
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World. Culture. Characters...that
sort of thing.
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mary rosenblum
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Then, when you're weaving
details into your scenes, you can pick the more evocative...
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good idea to ask yourself...what
is the most important feature of this landscape. What will have the
greatest impact on the reader...
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mary rosenblum
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That way you can use the
fewest details and get the greatest effect.
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mary rosenblum
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I keep evoking sumi
painting...it's a good example.
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mary rosenblum
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That is the Japanese brush
painting form where a very few brush strokes...
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mary rosenblum
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suggest an entire landscape.
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ltsonya
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do you imagine a lot of this
stuff first before you start making files?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. I have a novelette on
contract, due in June. Sf. I'm setting it on Europa. I have been building Europa
and its ocean ecology under a sky of solid ice for weeks now...
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mary rosenblum
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and walking around in it a lot
lately.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll probably actually start
the story this weekend.
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xana
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thesmell of hundreds of fish
being hauled into the boat in nets and the screeching of gulls swooping
overhead
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mary rosenblum
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Nice Xana...you have managed
to give us sight, smell, and hearing all in one passage. Good for you.
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ltsonya
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so does it help if you imagine
yourself there walking down the streets or trudging through mountains?
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mary rosenblum
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It does me, because I AM my
character as I write a story. So I'm going to be walking around there.
(It's cold).
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mary rosenblum
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I find that the more time I
spend 'looking' at scenes in my proposed story, the more I can recognize
the key details...
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mary rosenblum
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they're the ones I remember
most easily and vividly.
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mary rosenblum
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If something is important to
your plot, you can spend more details on it. Like our poker game in the
bar...
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mary rosenblum
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if the gambling sheriff is a
big part of our Cain plot, then he can notice a lot of details there.
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mary rosenblum
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But if he notices tons of
details about that barbershop...that's going to bog the story down. It just
doesn't matter to the plot. Fat.
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xana
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Mary, is your POV from Europa or
outside?
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mary rosenblum
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He's human. More or less. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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When you're finding those
evocative details to create a world, see if you can find details that
convey more than you MUST have.
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mary rosenblum
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If you look back at Xana's
example of fishing boats, nets, fish smell, and gulls...
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mary rosenblum
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maybe all we needed was the
ocean. So we could have had our character...
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mary rosenblum
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just walk down to the beach.
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mary rosenblum
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But the boat and fish tells us
waht people do for a living along this shore.
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mary rosenblum
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We now know that this is a
fishing community...and that might not be critical to the plot...
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mary rosenblum
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but it gives us that 'larger
world'...
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geezer
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Europa's sky refracts light so
they walk around in rainbows!
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mary rosenblum
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That would be cool. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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What I see in a lot of novice
ms is barebones setting that tells us nothing.
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mary rosenblum
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We see a street. No
description...just a street.
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mary rosenblum
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But even a few key details can
tell us so much...as we found out through Cain.
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cosmos
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Mary, when you are working on a
novel, creating a new world and characters, do you find it's important not
to work on another novel project at the same time or do you find that it
helps to be able to flit from one to another? Is there wisdom in narrowing
your work on writing projects?
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mary rosenblum
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That entirely depends on how
you write, cosmos.
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mary rosenblum
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Some people can shift from
project to project, others cannot.
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mary rosenblum
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I tend to have about three
going at once. For me, working on another novel or story is the same...
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mary rosenblum
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as putting that 'laid aside'
project away for a month. I come back to it with clear eyes..
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mary rosenblum
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And can see things I couldn't
see when I was working on it because I was too close to it.
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mary rosenblum
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Three is about the right
combination for me. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But my good friend is a one
project writer...
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mary rosenblum
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she works on it until it is
done, then she starts the next project.
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mary rosenblum
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You do what works for you. :-)
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ltsonya
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how do you work out your
technology for your sci-fi or magic in fantasy? it's such a huge part of
the world, do you ever feel that those ideas just don't seem 'unique'
enough?
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mary rosenblum
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Everything has been done, sonya.
Just make your magic consistent, think it out thoroughly. Make your
technology believable...
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mary rosenblum
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It's what you do with world
and character and plot that makes your story unique, not your idea.
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mary rosenblum
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I often give writers workshops
an exercise where I give them a plot and character and they all use that
plot and character...
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mary rosenblum
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to write a story. And you know
what? They are utterly unlike each other.
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mary rosenblum
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A really new 'wow, that's
cool' idea is wonderful when you get it, but not at all necessary and
hardly common! LOL
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lore alley
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Mary, can I ask a completely
unrelated question? I'm sitting here with a story ready to write, staring
at the screen, and I have absolutely no clue how to begin. Any quick
advice? (lol)
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mary rosenblum
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Just start writing and tell
yourself that you'll fix the beginning later.
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mary rosenblum
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I HATE beginnings!
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mary rosenblum
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I frequently do them way
later.
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mary rosenblum
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This has been a fun 'Oregon hour' and I
still have electricty! Wasn't sure about the roof a couple of times
there.... :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place...'Writing Craft: Forum Transcript'.
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lore alley
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thanks mary!
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for coming, all!
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cosmos
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Thanks, Mary. I appreciate your
clarity about writing projects. I thought that when you were walking around
on Europa for a couple of months, you were only doing one novel project at
a time.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, no. I"ve also been
playing with a mystery set in OR, and a dark urban fantasy full of very
strange beings.
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mary rosenblum
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Good night all, thanks for
coming!
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mary rosenblum
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See you all on Sunday.
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