Forum Transcripts

Writers Groups 6/24/05

Event start time:

Fri Jun 24 19:06:50 2005

Event end time:

Fri Jun 24 20:34:25 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a great week. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I just got back from working as a stock handler at a herding dog trial...

mary rosenblum

and as I was waiting to release a new pen of sheep, one of the experienced trainers, who was making comments about...

mary rosenblum

each run, chuckled, and commented...'It's always easier to see the mistakes from out here'. :-)

mary rosenblum

And that's what critiques and writers groups are all about...that reality that it IS easier...

mary rosenblum

to see problems in others' work, long before you can see the same problems in your own work.

mary rosenblum

Critiquing...with an eye to making that writer's story STRONGER rather than merely pointing out problems...

mary rosenblum

is probably the best way to improve your own writing.

mary rosenblum

It's one of the reasons I prefer to teach for Long Ridge rather than to write free lance nonfiction to pick up the slack in the paycheck. :-)

mary rosenblum

I continually learn from my students as I help them make a wide wide variety of fiction and nonfiction stronger.

mary rosenblum

There are various ways to give and take critiques...you can swap with other writers and do it by mail, email, or meet in the chat room here.

mary rosenblum

You can form local groups and meet in a library meeting room or other community room or even in someone's home.

mary rosenblum

Back before I publshed, I belonged to a very nicely organized 'round robin' group...

mary rosenblum

where you signed up and sent in three copies to the coordinator. She mailed out those copies to the next three names on the member list. You received three ms from people who had sent stories in...

mary rosenblum

so every time you sent something in, you did three critiques and got three critiques. It worked very well for quite a few years. Lot of work for the coordinator. As I recall, we all paid a small fee as dues and of course supplied postage.

tkat_2

Mary, Do you know who the Fiction Editor is for The Florida Review? I can't find a name in the LR Market book or the Magazine They only list consulting editors in the mag.Thanks.

mary rosenblum

That's aggravating, tkat, and may mean that everyone on the mag takes turns wearing the editor's hat.

mary rosenblum

You'll just have to address the letter to 'Fiction Editor' .

mary rosenblum

But if they don't list a name, they're not going to hold it against you if you don't use a name.

mary rosenblum

Of all the types of critiquing I have participated in, I have to say that I get the most benefit from the realtime, live groups.

mary rosenblum

The reason for that is when eveyone has had his or her say and the story is opened for discussion...

mary rosenblum

a synergy developes as people discuss points.

beirdd

I'm curious about how many here right now, belong to local groups?

mary rosenblum

Good question. How about this.

mary rosenblum

All of you who belong to local 'in the flesh' groups say 'Me'.

mary rosenblum

Not as a question..

mary rosenblum

just in your regular send bar.

gwanny

I have signed up with one, but haven't sent anything

mary rosenblum

So a couple of you anyway.

mary rosenblum

Anybody here belong to an online group that uses chat?

wingedwarrior24

I joined LXR

tkat_2

I do Mary

mary rosenblum

They both work, and the nice thing about online chat rooms...

mary rosenblum

is that you're not limited by location. If you live in a small town and nobody else is interested in a group, you can still find people to swap critiques with and exchange support with.

mary rosenblum

And that is one of the real benefits to writers groups.

pjwriter2

me too LXR

mary rosenblum

Cool!

mary rosenblum

The support aspect is something that will REALLY help you as you struggle to break that 'sale' barrier.

mary rosenblum

Rejections really lose their sting when you bring them to your group and everybody commiserates.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

tkat_2

One of the reasons I left the local fiction Writers group I belong to was because it got stagnate. How do you keep the discussions fresh?

mary rosenblum

That is, alas, one of the limiting factors of groups. After awhile, you know what every member is going to say about your work.

mary rosenblum

Now in some of the larger, well established groups I know, new people regularly join and people...

mary rosenblum

drop out or don't attend regularly, so there is always a different mix of people and some are new.

mary rosenblum

But even if you already know what all your critique group members will say, that support aspect can be very valuable.

mary rosenblum

But you may have to find outside critiquers for a 'fresh eye' or invite new people into your group.

mary rosenblum

Believe me, if you advertise a writers group, most of the time you will have NO trouble getting new members!

bethofmaine

Mary, I plan to start a writing community at work. Can a

bethofmaine

larger group work if broken into smaller groups for critique

mary rosenblum

That's a great idea, Beth!

mary rosenblum

And yes, that can work quite well. Not everyone will have work ready to critique at the same time...

mary rosenblum

so if you have a large group, those with stories ready for a critique might get together this month...

mary rosenblum

or you could separate by genres...all SF or fantasy people in this group...

mary rosenblum

that sort of thing. It does give you more options for 'mixing' so that you don't stagnate.

rcourt929

Mary, how do you find the writer's groups?

mary rosenblum

I would ask at local, small bookstores, rcourt. Many groups meet at a bookstore.

mary rosenblum

Even some of the big chains now host writers groups and not just reading groups.

mary rosenblum

Put up a note on the bulletin board of your local library.

mary rosenblum

If you have some sort of writers event nearby...there are two at least in Portland every year...

mary rosenblum

go to them and socialize. Ask around.

mary rosenblum

I've known people to put ads in the local paper and get quite a few calls.

pjwriter2

one of the things I worried about in groups is that someone may take ideas or the story and complete it then send it in as one of their own. Does that happen or r the writers pretty honest in the real life groups?

mary rosenblum

I'ts very rare, pj.

mary rosenblum

Ideas have no value...it's what you do with them that matters.

mary rosenblum

I have only known one instance of a writer who actually 'stole' passages from a writers group...

mary rosenblum

and this is a pro who simply does it, is unapologetic about it, and doesn't get an critques or good blurbs from other pros, believe me!

mary rosenblum

But he's a jerk and as far as I can tell, he's unique.

beirdd

What do you think about having "exercises" for a group, that focus everybody's attention on the same sort of theme or issue? I've tried that with my group, since they are mostly very much "newbies."

mary rosenblum

Depends on the kind of group you have, beirdd...

mary rosenblum

some groups are very much a peer group...everyone is at about the same level...there are some...

mary rosenblum

well established groups of pro writers like that.

mary rosenblum

Others tend to be 'anchored' by one or two pros to begin with...

mary rosenblum

I've been the 'anchor' for a couple of groups like that.

mary rosenblum

And there, yes, you can use some kind of exercise or teaching format.

mary rosenblum

If you're all on the same level, you can discuss a topic...good characterization, say...

mary rosenblum

and bring examples that each person thinks illustrate 'good characterization'.

mary rosenblum

The ones I've been in have simply critiqued stories...that's pretty time consuming right there!

bethofmaine

What is the best way to begin a group meeting? Maybe

bethofmaine

discuss helpful topics like grammar, etc before critiquing?

mary rosenblum

That might be a very good way to begin.

mary rosenblum

And of course, group members will have their own needs...what they want from a group.

mary rosenblum

That's probably something to discuss when you set up a group...

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

pliz

Would you suggest staarting a group and limiting size, genre

mary rosenblum

That might be a good idea when you are starting out.

mary rosenblum

Groups are not equally perfect and they don't necessarily happen on their own.

mary rosenblum

A very successful group has existed for many years in Eugene Oregon.

mary rosenblum

It is quite large, many members have gone on to be pros, and it has very strict rules.

mary rosenblum

You must attend a meeting and simply listen.

mary rosenblum

If you think you can fit in, you submit a story and...

mary rosenblum

if the story is approved, it is critqued with you present...and only THEN...

mary rosenblum

do the people who run it decide if you're in or out.

mary rosenblum

And you are required to turn in a story every month, no excuses (or a chapter).

mary rosenblum

Now that is much more rigorous than most...

mary rosenblum

but what it does is allow them to keep out people who simply won't fit, whose critiques are really hostile, say, or are going to get wounded by serious criticism.

speck

What kind of "rules" would you recommend for a critique group?

mary rosenblum

Certainly a 'Clarion style' of critiquing can keep things from getting out of hand.

mary rosenblum

And a very strict time rule.

mary rosenblum

Clarion Style is this: Every person gets two minutes to make their points. You use 'ditto' if someone else has made your point. The writer cannot speak until...

mary rosenblum

all the critiques are given. Then he/she gets ten minutes to rebut, but the preferred response is 'thank you'.

mary rosenblum

-) Very simple.

mary rosenblum

And actually, that brief open session at the end is when that synergy can occur...

mary rosenblum

and people can start brainstorming. I have gotten some great inspiration that way.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

cosmos

Is the group in Eugene open to new people?

mary rosenblum

I think you need to be invited, cosmos. You'd have to meet someone at a conference or signing...be part of the local writers/readers universe.

mary rosenblum

It's a very well established group, mostly semi-pro now, and has a waiting list, last I heard.

bethofmaine

Can a group with varying genres of fiction as well as poetry

bethofmaine

and non-fiction still work together as well?

mary rosenblum

It can, beth, but there are some drawbacks.

mary rosenblum

Prose writers like myself are useless as critiquers of poetry.

mary rosenblum

My knowlege of poetry runs to: I like it. I don't like it.

mary rosenblum

Not particularly helpful to the poet!!!

mary rosenblum

Genres have their own rules. I generally send my mystery ms to a mystery writer/reader and my sf ms to a sf writer/reader...

mary rosenblum

Mainstream goes to mainstream readers.

mary rosenblum

If I give a sf piece for example, to a mainstream reader, he/she is likely to want all kinds of explanations that a sf reader will not need...

mary rosenblum

and while that reader's comments on things like characterization will be useful, it won't be as useful as a crit from a SF reader.

tkat_2

The group I was with didn't have poets, non fiction writers or romance writers on staff.

mary rosenblum

You may have to simply start your own group, tkat.

mary rosenblum

I know there are poetry groups in Portland, because a poet friend of mine has belonged to several...they DO exist...

mary rosenblum

and so do nonfic groups. Just got invited to one that is nonfiction and mainstream.

pliz

Besides bookstores how would you find a local group?

mary rosenblum

Try putting up ads on library bulletin boards.

mary rosenblum

Google writers groups and your town's name.

mary rosenblum

Can't hurt!

mary rosenblum

Put an ad in the local paper.

mary rosenblum

Attend readers/writers affairs...signings, conferences, etc...

mary rosenblum

and make up a flyer. 'New Writers Group Starting'.

mary rosenblum

Hand 'em out.

info

how do you handle it if you saygive your story to a english tutor and a fellow writer and you get more out of the english tutor and yet not everything you need or want to know? Is that were you need to have a list of questions that would be of help? And how do you get more of a response than I don't know?

mary rosenblum

Well, your response is going to depend on the ability of your critiquer, info.

mary rosenblum

And it depends on what you need, too.

mary rosenblum

If you have specific quesitons (was my character's motivation clear in this scene?) then...

mary rosenblum

you should give the reader a list of questions to read AFTER he/she has read the story or article.

mary rosenblum

People don't remember to tell you what you did well...

mary rosenblum

and they often breeze over something but when you ask 'did this work?' they pause...

mary rosenblum

and say, 'well, no, it really didn't'.

mary rosenblum

I always have a mental list of questions I want answers to.

mary rosenblum

And if my critiquer doesn't answer them on his/her own, I'll prompt.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Try typing /ask in front of your question in the regular send bar, pliz.

mary rosenblum

Pliz, I'm assuming you're going to ask what questions to use?

mary rosenblum

That would depend on what you're uneasy about.

mary rosenblum

If you're thrilled with the story, it's pefect...

mary rosenblum

then don't ask any. Listen to hear what people have to say.

mary rosenblum

But if you find a bit of doubt nagging at you...did I REALLY make that ending clear?

mary rosenblum

Will the reader remember that he said he was leaving in scene one by the time we get to the end?

mary rosenblum

Then ask.

pliz

I'm very unsure and want to know what they think.

mary rosenblum

Then ask general questions. I often do that when I try a novice critiquer for the first time.

mary rosenblum

Did you like the character? Did you learn enough about her past that her behavior made sense?

mary rosenblum

Was there any place where you were bored?

mary rosenblum

Was the climax scene exciting enough or did you guess what was going to happen?

mary rosenblum

That kind of thing.

pjwriter2

What do you do if you are in a crit group and you are unsure of your self and you have to do crits for others? How do you crit them?

mary rosenblum

Most people feel like that at first, and this is where you start learning.

mary rosenblum

Read the piece.

mary rosenblum

Ask yourself...what worked here? What as cool?

mary rosenblum

Tell the writer.

mary rosenblum

As you read through, write down your reaction in the margin (I call those 'first read comments').

mary rosenblum

Huh? is a good one (what is going on here?)

mary rosenblum

Who? (who's talking, whose POV are we in anyway?)

mary rosenblum

'this is slow'.

mary rosenblum

And don't forget the praise!

mary rosenblum

We don't KNOW we're doing it well if people don't tell us!

mary rosenblum

Nice description!

mary rosenblum

Great fight scene!

massite

If you're in a group can you use a crib sheet. One with questions. I have several

mary rosenblum

A lot of books on writing include 'em.

mary rosenblum

It's a good writing exercise to ask yourself...'If I could fix something here, what would it be?"

mary rosenblum

And work on that answer.

mary rosenblum

You'll learn a LOT that way.

pliz

So you can critque kindly some are brutal?

mary rosenblum

There is NO EXCUSE EVER for a brutal critique.

mary rosenblum

Never ever ever ever ever.

mary rosenblum

How's THAT for an absolute.

mary rosenblum

I can tell someone every single tiny problem they have in their ms, and they will feel good about what they have done at the end.

mary rosenblum

It serves NO purpose to say those things in a negative way, NONE.

gwanny

I sent assignment #2 to some folks to crit. the reaction from my crits was much different from the reaction from my instructor. It confused me, so I just let my instructors comments stand

mary rosenblum

Well, generally, your instructor is an instructor because he/she knows what she/he is doing when it comes to prose, gwanny. :-)

mary rosenblum

And it is VERY dangerous to treat all crits equally.

mary rosenblum

Some are appropriate for your story.

mary rosenblum

Others are not.

mary rosenblum

I have a very good friend, another pro SF writer...

mary rosenblum

and we have been in several groups together. I love the man dearly, but I pay no attention to anything he says...

mary rosenblum

about my stories unless he's dinging me on military details (he's an expert there).

mary rosenblum

He and I have an utterly different approach to fiction and much of what I write goes right past him.

mary rosenblum

So I smile and say thank you and I value his military expertise!

mary rosenblum

Use what works for you.

mary rosenblum

I have seen novice writers ruin good stories by trying to use every suggestion everyone made!

mary rosenblum

Yikes!

mary rosenblum

That's like squirting a dozen colors of paint on a palette and then stirring 'em together.

mary rosenblum

You get mud color.

mary rosenblum

Some people will see a different story. Others will see YOUR story.

mary rosenblum

Listen to what everyone says.

mary rosenblum

Put the story aside for a week and just think about it.

mary rosenblum

The comments that really make sense will stick with you.

mary rosenblum

But remember...YOU are right.

sailor

If you're in a group, is it common to give others copies of what you want them to critique ahead of time, or is it more common to pass them out at the meeting and collect them at the end?

mary rosenblum

It can work both ways.

mary rosenblum

I prefer to get and give out stories at the previous meeting or at least a week ahead of time.

mary rosenblum

Takes a LONG time to read a 5000 word story!

mary rosenblum

If you have five stories at one group meeting...bring your sleeping bag!

mary rosenblum

Most of the groups I've been in exchanged stories at one meeting, exchanged critiques of the stories at the next.

sweett

I just wanted to let everyone know that The Sweet Spot's first issue is online at http://thesweetspot.home.att.net. Thank you for posting it.

mary rosenblum

Oh, cool, sweet!

mary rosenblum

Way to go!

mary rosenblum

This is sweett's new online magazine.

roe

kind of like Bob Ross the painter. It's your world I used to take the crits too much to heart and tried to use what everyone said too, You're so right it DOESN"T work and changed my whole story

mary rosenblum

Yes!

mary rosenblum

It IS your world and you know how you want it to be.

mary rosenblum

Use the crits that help you get there and ignore the ones that are 'off base'.

mary rosenblum

That said...if three different people tell you your plot is weak...

mary rosenblum

your plot is probably weak!

pjwriter2

so are you saying that crits basicly just gives u an idea of what your words are getting across to others as far as maybe being clear or portraing what you want to others as an writer?

mary rosenblum

Exactly, pj.

mary rosenblum

That's what writing IS after all....

mary rosenblum

you are using marks on paper to create a kind of telepathy...

mary rosenblum

you are sharing the cool universe you see inside your head with your readers.

mary rosenblum

And what critiques do is answer those pesky questions...

mary rosenblum

too much dialogue or not enough?

mary rosenblum

Too much description or not enough?

mary rosenblum

Does my character seem real?

mary rosenblum

Is the reader going to be satisfied at the end?

mary rosenblum

Readers give it a test drive.

mary rosenblum

AND... a tip here.

mary rosenblum

I myself find it much better to send a second draft to my readers...often a FIRST draft...

mary rosenblum

rather than a polished ms.

mary rosenblum

I KNOW that ms has problems. That's why it's out there

mary rosenblum

I even do that with editors, although, ahem, I can get away with it and YOU cannot yet.

cosmos

What is the best way of sorting critiques? With the provided questions? For example humor requires timing. If you incorporate everyone's suggestions, sometimes it's no longer funny.

mary rosenblum

Sort your critiques by what works for you.

mary rosenblum

Don't revise right away.

mary rosenblum

Think about those critiques for at least a week before you sit down to revise.

mary rosenblum

They will probably sort themselves out for you just fine by then.

pjwriter2

(a little off subject) I have been told that u shouldn't use dialogue in the beginning of your story Say the first paragraph why is that?

mary rosenblum

ACtually, a dialogue start is a very strong start, pj...

mary rosenblum

since the reader won't put the story down until the conversation is over.

mary rosenblum

But what IS a problem is when the story starts with dialogue and no visuals.

mary rosenblum

Then you have the effect of voices speaking from a gray fog.

mary rosenblum

Mix visuals and strong dialogue and the start works just fine.

mary rosenblum

"I told you I'd be back." Brett stared down the barrel of the .44.

mary rosenblum

"You're wrong." Carl struggled for breath, the midnight crickets shrilling in his ears. "Do this and you'll never know."

mary rosenblum

And you show these characters in a setting.

mary rosenblum

In the next two or three lines of dialogue, we can set them in the desert, on a ranch, wherever.

mary rosenblum

alley in the city...

mary rosenblum

we have night and crickets.

mary rosenblum

One or two more small details give us a place.

mary rosenblum

And because you will be slipping in a bunch of details, you really want that dialogue...

mary rosenblum

to be compelling.

mary rosenblum

So that it forms a strong backbone for the description and sweeps the reader into the story.

pjwriter2

ty so much. that helped me alot.

mary rosenblum

You're welcome. :-)

mary rosenblum

Some of the more fun groups I've been in have taken place in peoples' homes. Every member takes a turn having the group over...

mary rosenblum

and we'd have a mini potluck after.

mary rosenblum

It was a nice mix of business and social...just don't let the 'social' take over completely!

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon Hour. :-)

mary rosenblum

Do join us on Sunday for our casual chat...

mary rosenblum

where we just hang out and talk.

mary rosenblum

Same time as the Forum here.

mary rosenblum

I have a dog show, but should be home by then.

mary rosenblum

And I have a scary SF story in the Analog Magazine that just came out.

mary rosenblum

Search Engine.

mary rosenblum

It's scary because the technology is only a very few years in the future...

mary rosenblum

like maybe five.

mary rosenblum

It's the September issue.

mary rosenblum

I have a story in Fantasy and SF Magazine in the August issue, to, as far as I know.

whistlin_smithy

Thanks for letting us know, Mary. Is that an online magazine, or print?

mary rosenblum

They're both print mags, smithy.

mary rosenblum

Barnes and Noble carries em...the other chains, too.

mary rosenblum

Well, have a good weekend, all!

mary rosenblum

See you Sunday.

mary rosenblum

I'll post this in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Good night, all!

 

Return to Forum Transcripts