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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you had a great week.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers
groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will
do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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I just got back from working
as a stock handler at a herding dog trial...
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mary rosenblum
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and as I was waiting to
release a new pen of sheep, one of the experienced trainers, who was making
comments about...
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mary rosenblum
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each run, chuckled, and
commented...'It's always easier to see the mistakes from out here'. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And that's what critiques and
writers groups are all about...that reality that it IS easier...
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mary rosenblum
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to see problems in others'
work, long before you can see the same problems in your own work.
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mary rosenblum
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Critiquing...with an eye to
making that writer's story STRONGER rather than merely pointing out
problems...
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mary rosenblum
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is probably the best way to
improve your own writing.
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mary rosenblum
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It's one of the reasons I
prefer to teach for Long Ridge rather than to write free lance nonfiction
to pick up the slack in the paycheck. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I continually learn from my
students as I help them make a wide wide variety of fiction and nonfiction
stronger.
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mary rosenblum
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There are various ways to give
and take critiques...you can swap with other writers and do it by mail,
email, or meet in the chat room here.
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mary rosenblum
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You can form local groups and
meet in a library meeting room or other community room or even in someone's
home.
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mary rosenblum
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Back before I publshed, I
belonged to a very nicely organized 'round robin' group...
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mary rosenblum
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where you signed up and sent
in three copies to the coordinator. She mailed out those copies to the next
three names on the member list. You received three ms from people who had
sent stories in...
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mary rosenblum
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so every time you sent
something in, you did three critiques and got three critiques. It worked
very well for quite a few years. Lot of work for the coordinator. As I
recall, we all paid a small fee as dues and of course supplied postage.
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tkat_2
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Mary, Do you know who the
Fiction Editor is for The Florida Review? I can't find a name in the LR
Market book or the Magazine They only list consulting editors in the
mag.Thanks.
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mary rosenblum
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That's aggravating, tkat, and
may mean that everyone on the mag takes turns wearing the editor's hat.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll just have to address
the letter to 'Fiction Editor' .
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mary rosenblum
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But if they don't list a name,
they're not going to hold it against you if you don't use a name.
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mary rosenblum
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Of all the types of critiquing
I have participated in, I have to say that I get the most benefit from the
realtime, live groups.
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mary rosenblum
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The reason for that is when
eveyone has had his or her say and the story is opened for discussion...
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mary rosenblum
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a synergy developes as people
discuss points.
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beirdd
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I'm curious about how many here
right now, belong to local groups?
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mary rosenblum
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Good question. How about this.
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mary rosenblum
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All of you who belong to local
'in the flesh' groups say 'Me'.
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mary rosenblum
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Not as a question..
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mary rosenblum
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just in your regular send bar.
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gwanny
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I have signed up with one, but
haven't sent anything
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mary rosenblum
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So a couple of you anyway.
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mary rosenblum
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Anybody here belong to an
online group that uses chat?
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wingedwarrior24
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I joined LXR
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tkat_2
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I do Mary
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mary rosenblum
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They both work, and the nice
thing about online chat rooms...
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mary rosenblum
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is that you're not limited by
location. If you live in a small town and nobody else is interested in a
group, you can still find people to swap critiques with and exchange support
with.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is one of the real
benefits to writers groups.
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pjwriter2
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me too LXR
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mary rosenblum
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Cool!
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mary rosenblum
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The support aspect is
something that will REALLY help you as you struggle to break that 'sale'
barrier.
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mary rosenblum
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Rejections really lose their
sting when you bring them to your group and everybody commiserates.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers
groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will
do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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tkat_2
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One of the reasons I left the
local fiction Writers group I belong to was because it got stagnate. How do
you keep the discussions fresh?
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mary rosenblum
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That is, alas, one of the
limiting factors of groups. After awhile, you know what every member is
going to say about your work.
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mary rosenblum
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Now in some of the larger,
well established groups I know, new people regularly join and people...
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mary rosenblum
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drop out or don't attend
regularly, so there is always a different mix of people and some are new.
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mary rosenblum
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But even if you already know
what all your critique group members will say, that support aspect can be
very valuable.
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mary rosenblum
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But you may have to find
outside critiquers for a 'fresh eye' or invite new people into your group.
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mary rosenblum
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Believe me, if you advertise a
writers group, most of the time you will have NO trouble getting new
members!
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bethofmaine
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Mary, I plan to start a writing
community at work. Can a
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bethofmaine
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larger group work if broken into
smaller groups for critique
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mary rosenblum
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That's a great idea, Beth!
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mary rosenblum
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And yes, that can work quite
well. Not everyone will have work ready to critique at the same time...
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mary rosenblum
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so if you have a large group,
those with stories ready for a critique might get together this month...
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mary rosenblum
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or you could separate by
genres...all SF or fantasy people in this group...
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mary rosenblum
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that sort of thing. It does
give you more options for 'mixing' so that you don't stagnate.
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rcourt929
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Mary, how do you find the
writer's groups?
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mary rosenblum
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I would ask at local, small
bookstores, rcourt. Many groups meet at a bookstore.
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mary rosenblum
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Even some of the big chains
now host writers groups and not just reading groups.
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mary rosenblum
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Put up a note on the bulletin
board of your local library.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have some sort of
writers event nearby...there are two at least in Portland every year...
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mary rosenblum
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go to them and socialize. Ask
around.
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mary rosenblum
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I've known people to put ads
in the local paper and get quite a few calls.
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pjwriter2
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one of the things I worried
about in groups is that someone may take ideas or the story and complete it
then send it in as one of their own. Does that happen or r the writers
pretty honest in the real life groups?
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mary rosenblum
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I'ts very rare, pj.
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mary rosenblum
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Ideas have no value...it's
what you do with them that matters.
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mary rosenblum
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I have only known one instance
of a writer who actually 'stole' passages from a writers group...
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mary rosenblum
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and this is a pro who simply
does it, is unapologetic about it, and doesn't get an critques or good
blurbs from other pros, believe me!
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mary rosenblum
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But he's a jerk and as far as
I can tell, he's unique.
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beirdd
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What do you think about having
"exercises" for a group, that focus everybody's attention on the
same sort of theme or issue? I've tried that with my group, since they are
mostly very much "newbies."
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on the kind of group
you have, beirdd...
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mary rosenblum
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some groups are very much a
peer group...everyone is at about the same level...there are some...
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mary rosenblum
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well established groups of pro
writers like that.
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mary rosenblum
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Others tend to be 'anchored'
by one or two pros to begin with...
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mary rosenblum
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I've been the 'anchor' for a
couple of groups like that.
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mary rosenblum
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And there, yes, you can use
some kind of exercise or teaching format.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're all on the same
level, you can discuss a topic...good characterization, say...
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mary rosenblum
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and bring examples that each
person thinks illustrate 'good characterization'.
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mary rosenblum
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The ones I've been in have
simply critiqued stories...that's pretty time consuming right there!
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bethofmaine
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What is the best way to begin a
group meeting? Maybe
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bethofmaine
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discuss helpful topics like
grammar, etc before critiquing?
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mary rosenblum
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That might be a very good way
to begin.
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mary rosenblum
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And of course, group members
will have their own needs...what they want from a group.
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mary rosenblum
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That's probably something to
discuss when you set up a group...
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers
groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will
do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
|
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pliz
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Would you suggest staarting a
group and limiting size, genre
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mary rosenblum
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That might be a good idea when
you are starting out.
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mary rosenblum
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Groups are not equally perfect
and they don't necessarily happen on their own.
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mary rosenblum
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A very successful group has
existed for many years in Eugene Oregon.
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mary rosenblum
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It is quite large, many
members have gone on to be pros, and it has very strict rules.
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mary rosenblum
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You must attend a meeting and
simply listen.
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mary rosenblum
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If you think you can fit in,
you submit a story and...
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mary rosenblum
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if the story is approved, it
is critqued with you present...and only THEN...
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mary rosenblum
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do the people who run it
decide if you're in or out.
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mary rosenblum
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And you are required to turn
in a story every month, no excuses (or a chapter).
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mary rosenblum
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Now that is much more rigorous
than most...
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mary rosenblum
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but what it does is allow them
to keep out people who simply won't fit, whose critiques are really
hostile, say, or are going to get wounded by serious criticism.
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speck
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What kind of "rules"
would you recommend for a critique group?
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mary rosenblum
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Certainly a 'Clarion style' of
critiquing can keep things from getting out of hand.
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mary rosenblum
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And a very strict time rule.
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mary rosenblum
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Clarion Style is this: Every
person gets two minutes to make their points. You use 'ditto' if someone
else has made your point. The writer cannot speak until...
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mary rosenblum
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all the critiques are given.
Then he/she gets ten minutes to rebut, but the preferred response is 'thank
you'.
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mary rosenblum
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-) Very simple.
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mary rosenblum
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And actually, that brief open
session at the end is when that synergy can occur...
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mary rosenblum
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and people can start
brainstorming. I have gotten some great inspiration that way.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers
groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will
do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
|
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cosmos
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Is the group in Eugene open to
new people?
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mary rosenblum
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I think you need to be
invited, cosmos. You'd have to meet someone at a conference or signing...be
part of the local writers/readers universe.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a very well established
group, mostly semi-pro now, and has a waiting list, last I heard.
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bethofmaine
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Can a group with varying genres
of fiction as well as poetry
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bethofmaine
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and non-fiction still work
together as well?
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mary rosenblum
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It can, beth, but there are
some drawbacks.
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mary rosenblum
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Prose writers like myself are
useless as critiquers of poetry.
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mary rosenblum
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My knowlege of poetry runs to:
I like it. I don't like it.
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mary rosenblum
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Not particularly helpful to
the poet!!!
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mary rosenblum
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Genres have their own rules. I
generally send my mystery ms to a mystery writer/reader and my sf ms to a
sf writer/reader...
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mary rosenblum
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Mainstream goes to mainstream
readers.
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mary rosenblum
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If I give a sf piece for
example, to a mainstream reader, he/she is likely to want all kinds of
explanations that a sf reader will not need...
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mary rosenblum
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and while that reader's
comments on things like characterization will be useful, it won't be as
useful as a crit from a SF reader.
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tkat_2
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The group I was with didn't have
poets, non fiction writers or romance writers on staff.
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mary rosenblum
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You may have to simply start
your own group, tkat.
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mary rosenblum
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I know there are poetry groups
in Portland, because a poet friend of mine has belonged to several...they
DO exist...
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mary rosenblum
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and so do nonfic groups. Just
got invited to one that is nonfiction and mainstream.
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pliz
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Besides bookstores how would you
find a local group?
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mary rosenblum
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Try putting up ads on library
bulletin boards.
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mary rosenblum
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Google writers groups and your
town's name.
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mary rosenblum
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Can't hurt!
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mary rosenblum
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Put an ad in the local paper.
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mary rosenblum
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Attend readers/writers
affairs...signings, conferences, etc...
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mary rosenblum
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and make up a flyer. 'New
Writers Group Starting'.
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mary rosenblum
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Hand 'em out.
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info
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how do you handle it if you
saygive your story to a english tutor and a fellow writer and you get more
out of the english tutor and yet not everything you need or want to know?
Is that were you need to have a list of questions that would be of help?
And how do you get more of a response than I don't know?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, your response is going
to depend on the ability of your critiquer, info.
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mary rosenblum
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And it depends on what you
need, too.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have specific quesitons
(was my character's motivation clear in this scene?) then...
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mary rosenblum
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you should give the reader a
list of questions to read AFTER he/she has read the story or article.
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mary rosenblum
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People don't remember to tell
you what you did well...
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mary rosenblum
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and they often breeze over
something but when you ask 'did this work?' they pause...
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mary rosenblum
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and say, 'well, no, it really
didn't'.
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mary rosenblum
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I always have a mental list of
questions I want answers to.
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mary rosenblum
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And if my critiquer doesn't
answer them on his/her own, I'll prompt.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about writers
groups. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will
do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a
question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and
type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Try typing /ask in front of
your question in the regular send bar, pliz.
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mary rosenblum
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Pliz, I'm assuming you're
going to ask what questions to use?
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mary rosenblum
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That would depend on what
you're uneasy about.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're thrilled with the
story, it's pefect...
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mary rosenblum
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then don't ask any. Listen to
hear what people have to say.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you find a bit of doubt
nagging at you...did I REALLY make that ending clear?
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mary rosenblum
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Will the reader remember that
he said he was leaving in scene one by the time we get to the end?
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mary rosenblum
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Then ask.
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pliz
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I'm very unsure and want to know
what they think.
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mary rosenblum
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Then ask general questions. I
often do that when I try a novice critiquer for the first time.
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mary rosenblum
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Did you like the character?
Did you learn enough about her past that her behavior made sense?
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mary rosenblum
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Was there any place where you
were bored?
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mary rosenblum
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Was the climax scene exciting
enough or did you guess what was going to happen?
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mary rosenblum
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That kind of thing.
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pjwriter2
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What do you do if you are in a
crit group and you are unsure of your self and you have to do crits for
others? How do you crit them?
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mary rosenblum
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Most people feel like that at
first, and this is where you start learning.
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mary rosenblum
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Read the piece.
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mary rosenblum
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Ask yourself...what worked
here? What as cool?
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mary rosenblum
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Tell the writer.
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mary rosenblum
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As you read through, write
down your reaction in the margin (I call those 'first read comments').
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mary rosenblum
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Huh? is a good one (what is
going on here?)
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mary rosenblum
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Who? (who's talking, whose POV
are we in anyway?)
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mary rosenblum
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'this is slow'.
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mary rosenblum
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And don't forget the praise!
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mary rosenblum
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We don't KNOW we're doing it
well if people don't tell us!
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mary rosenblum
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Nice description!
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mary rosenblum
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Great fight scene!
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massite
|
If you're in a group can you use
a crib sheet. One with questions. I have several
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of books on writing
include 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good writing exercise
to ask yourself...'If I could fix something here, what would it be?"
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mary rosenblum
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And work on that answer.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll learn a LOT that way.
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pliz
|
So you can critque kindly some
are brutal?
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mary rosenblum
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There is NO EXCUSE EVER for a
brutal critique.
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mary rosenblum
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Never ever ever ever ever.
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mary rosenblum
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How's THAT for an absolute.
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mary rosenblum
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I can tell someone every
single tiny problem they have in their ms, and they will feel good about
what they have done at the end.
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mary rosenblum
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It serves NO purpose to say
those things in a negative way, NONE.
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gwanny
|
I sent assignment #2 to some
folks to crit. the reaction from my crits was much different from the
reaction from my instructor. It confused me, so I just let my instructors
comments stand
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mary rosenblum
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Well, generally, your
instructor is an instructor because he/she knows what she/he is doing when
it comes to prose, gwanny. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And it is VERY dangerous to
treat all crits equally.
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mary rosenblum
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Some are appropriate for your
story.
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mary rosenblum
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Others are not.
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mary rosenblum
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I have a very good friend,
another pro SF writer...
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mary rosenblum
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and we have been in several
groups together. I love the man dearly, but I pay no attention to anything
he says...
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mary rosenblum
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about my stories unless he's
dinging me on military details (he's an expert there).
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mary rosenblum
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He and I have an utterly
different approach to fiction and much of what I write goes right past him.
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mary rosenblum
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So I smile and say thank you and
I value his military expertise!
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mary rosenblum
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Use what works for you.
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mary rosenblum
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I have seen novice writers
ruin good stories by trying to use every suggestion everyone made!
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mary rosenblum
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Yikes!
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mary rosenblum
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That's like squirting a dozen
colors of paint on a palette and then stirring 'em together.
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mary rosenblum
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You get mud color.
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mary rosenblum
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Some people will see a
different story. Others will see YOUR story.
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mary rosenblum
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Listen to what everyone says.
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mary rosenblum
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Put the story aside for a week
and just think about it.
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mary rosenblum
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The comments that really make
sense will stick with you.
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mary rosenblum
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But remember...YOU are right.
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sailor
|
If you're in a group, is it
common to give others copies of what you want them to critique ahead of
time, or is it more common to pass them out at the meeting and collect them
at the end?
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mary rosenblum
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It can work both ways.
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mary rosenblum
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I prefer to get and give out
stories at the previous meeting or at least a week ahead of time.
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mary rosenblum
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Takes a LONG time to read a
5000 word story!
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mary rosenblum
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If you have five stories at
one group meeting...bring your sleeping bag!
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mary rosenblum
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Most of the groups I've been
in exchanged stories at one meeting, exchanged critiques of the stories at
the next.
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sweett
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I just wanted to let everyone
know that The Sweet Spot's first issue is online at
http://thesweetspot.home.att.net. Thank you for posting it.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, cool, sweet!
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mary rosenblum
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Way to go!
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mary rosenblum
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This is sweett's new online
magazine.
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roe
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kind of like Bob Ross the
painter. It's your world I used to take the crits too much to heart and
tried to use what everyone said too, You're so right it DOESN"T work
and changed my whole story
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mary rosenblum
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Yes!
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mary rosenblum
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It IS your world and you know
how you want it to be.
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mary rosenblum
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Use the crits that help you
get there and ignore the ones that are 'off base'.
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mary rosenblum
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That said...if three different
people tell you your plot is weak...
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mary rosenblum
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your plot is probably weak!
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pjwriter2
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so are you saying that crits
basicly just gives u an idea of what your words are getting across to
others as far as maybe being clear or portraing what you want to others as
an writer?
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, pj.
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mary rosenblum
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That's what writing IS after
all....
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mary rosenblum
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you are using marks on paper
to create a kind of telepathy...
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mary rosenblum
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you are sharing the cool
universe you see inside your head with your readers.
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mary rosenblum
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And what critiques do is
answer those pesky questions...
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mary rosenblum
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too much dialogue or not
enough?
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mary rosenblum
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Too much description or not
enough?
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mary rosenblum
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Does my character seem real?
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mary rosenblum
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Is the reader going to be
satisfied at the end?
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mary rosenblum
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Readers give it a test drive.
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mary rosenblum
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AND... a tip here.
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mary rosenblum
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I myself find it much better
to send a second draft to my readers...often a FIRST draft...
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mary rosenblum
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rather than a polished ms.
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mary rosenblum
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I KNOW that ms has problems.
That's why it's out there
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mary rosenblum
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I even do that with editors,
although, ahem, I can get away with it and YOU cannot yet.
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cosmos
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What is the best way of sorting
critiques? With the provided questions? For example humor requires timing.
If you incorporate everyone's suggestions, sometimes it's no longer funny.
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mary rosenblum
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Sort your critiques by what
works for you.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't revise right away.
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mary rosenblum
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Think about those critiques
for at least a week before you sit down to revise.
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mary rosenblum
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They will probably sort
themselves out for you just fine by then.
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pjwriter2
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(a little off subject) I have
been told that u shouldn't use dialogue in the beginning of your story Say
the first paragraph why is that?
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mary rosenblum
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ACtually, a dialogue start is
a very strong start, pj...
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mary rosenblum
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since the reader won't put the
story down until the conversation is over.
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mary rosenblum
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But what IS a problem is when
the story starts with dialogue and no visuals.
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mary rosenblum
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Then you have the effect of
voices speaking from a gray fog.
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mary rosenblum
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Mix visuals and strong
dialogue and the start works just fine.
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mary rosenblum
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"I told you I'd be
back." Brett stared down the barrel of the .44.
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mary rosenblum
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"You're wrong." Carl
struggled for breath, the midnight crickets shrilling in his ears. "Do
this and you'll never know."
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mary rosenblum
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And you show these characters
in a setting.
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mary rosenblum
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In the next two or three lines
of dialogue, we can set them in the desert, on a ranch, wherever.
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mary rosenblum
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alley in the city...
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mary rosenblum
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we have night and crickets.
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mary rosenblum
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One or two more small details
give us a place.
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mary rosenblum
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And because you will be
slipping in a bunch of details, you really want that dialogue...
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mary rosenblum
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to be compelling.
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mary rosenblum
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So that it forms a strong
backbone for the description and sweeps the reader into the story.
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pjwriter2
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ty so much. that helped me alot.
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mary rosenblum
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You're welcome. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Some of the more fun groups
I've been in have taken place in peoples' homes. Every member takes a turn
having the group over...
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mary rosenblum
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and we'd have a mini potluck
after.
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mary rosenblum
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It was a nice mix of business
and social...just don't let the 'social' take over completely!
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon Hour. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us on Sunday for our
casual chat...
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mary rosenblum
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where we just hang out and
talk.
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mary rosenblum
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Same time as the Forum here.
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mary rosenblum
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I have a dog show, but should
be home by then.
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mary rosenblum
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And I have a scary SF story in
the Analog Magazine that just came out.
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mary rosenblum
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Search Engine.
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mary rosenblum
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It's scary because the
technology is only a very few years in the future...
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mary rosenblum
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like maybe five.
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mary rosenblum
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It's the September issue.
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mary rosenblum
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I have a story in Fantasy and
SF Magazine in the August issue, to, as far as I know.
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whistlin_smithy
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Thanks for letting us know,
Mary. Is that an online magazine, or print?
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mary rosenblum
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They're both print mags,
smithy.
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mary rosenblum
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Barnes and Noble carries
em...the other chains, too.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, have a good weekend,
all!
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mary rosenblum
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See you Sunday.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post this in the usual
place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Good night, all!
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