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mary rosenblum
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Hello, all, I hope you had a
great week.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about
the dos and don'ts of adverbs. I've published seven novels and more than 60
short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can
use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works
better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Been a busy day. I have a
revision sitting on my desk and staring accusingly at me...
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mary rosenblum
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Sigh... when I get done here!
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mary rosenblum
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And we do have an ominous dark
cloud so if I vanish suddenly we DID have a thunderstorm, rare tho they are
in this neck of the woods.
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geezer
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"Don't worry, the radiation
level isn't very high," Tom said glowing.---Self-Editing for Fiction
Writers
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mary rosenblum
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LOL, geezer. Not only bad
writing, but he must live near Hanford!
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btice
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I would like to find out about
attending writing seminars
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mary rosenblum
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Try googling 'writing
conferences seminars' btice.
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mary rosenblum
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And try www.shawguides.com
They list writers conferences and most have panels for writers. :-)
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wingedwarrior24
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is 'ly' the only adverb?
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tory
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"accusingly" Mary?
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mary rosenblum
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Have you been using too many
adverbs, she demanded accusingly...
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roe
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she shook her head woodenly
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mary rosenblum
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Good!
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mary rosenblum
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Let's go with these two
examples!
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mary rosenblum
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Adverbs are NOT bad.
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mary rosenblum
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You DO need them.
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mary rosenblum
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They are a problem when you
over use them, or you use them to TELL the reader instead of showing .
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mary rosenblum
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There is nothing wrong with
'she shook her head woodenly'.
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mary rosenblum
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That woodenly ADDS to our
visuals here...
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mary rosenblum
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There are many ways to shake
your head and that 'shook woodenly...
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mary rosenblum
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tells us she is in some way
numb...stunned by circumstances, overwhelmed...
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mary rosenblum
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and there is no equivalent to
shook woodenly that will work perfectly.
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mary rosenblum
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So it is a totally appropriate
adverb.
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speckledorf
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I see a LOT of over used adverbs
in submissions. For example, carressed tenderly, whispered softly or the
ocassional ran quickly. Sigh.
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mary rosenblum
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And these cases, speck are
like the 'said accusinglyl'.
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mary rosenblum
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They are simply redundant or
unneeded.
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mary rosenblum
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If I tell you 'he caressed
her'...will you think he slapped her?
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mary rosenblum
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We'll ASSUME tenderly!
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mary rosenblum
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If he caressed her roughly,
then you'd better use the adverb!
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mary rosenblum
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But not if it's tenderly!
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mary rosenblum
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And can you really run slowly?
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mary rosenblum
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Is it running then?
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mary rosenblum
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Or lumbering?
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mary rosenblum
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Here, run slowly is much
better served by a more accurate verb.
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mary rosenblum
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He lumbered across the room.
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mary rosenblum
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And my 'demanded accusingly'.
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mary rosenblum
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'You're overusing adverbs, she
accused.
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mary rosenblum
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Or Are you overusing adverbs?
she demanded.
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roe
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So they have their place if used
sparingly?
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mary rosenblum
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Mostly, it's a matter of using
them appropriately, roe.
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mary rosenblum
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And if you use them
appropriately, you will use them sparingly. (Which is an adverb, btw, and
an appropriate one here!)
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roe
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and if there isn't a powerful
verb to use in their place?
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mary rosenblum
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That is the main mis-use. It's
usually easier to add that adverb...'she ran quickly'...than to stop and
think. Hmmm... she darted.
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mary rosenblum
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Often a single verb will do
the job of your weaker verb with its adverb...
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mary rosenblum
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and if you can do that, DO it.
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mary rosenblum
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She walked hesitantly across
the room.
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mary rosenblum
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She tiptoed across the room.
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mary rosenblum
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She limped across the room.
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mary rosenblum
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She inched across the room.
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wingedwarrior24
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Mary, you missed my question, is
'ly' the only adverb?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, sorry, winged. I posted it
with 'accusingly' as an example and then forgot to address it!
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mary rosenblum
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It is the most common, but
not, there are lots of non-ly adverbs.
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mary rosenblum
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Any word that modifies either
an adjective or a verb is an adverb.
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mary rosenblum
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But the 'ly' form is most
common.
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mary rosenblum
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The very large bird flapped
away.
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mary rosenblum
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Very is an adverb.
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mary rosenblum
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And adverbs ARE necessary...
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mary rosenblum
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It is not an all or nothing
situation.
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seigfried007
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icy blue eyes?
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mary rosenblum
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Depends, seig. :-) Are his eye
icy, or is the shade of blue icy?
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mary rosenblum
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If his EYES are icy, it's an
adjective and you need a comma between icy and blue.
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roe
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But for the most part we should
avoid them when telling how someone speaks correct? It's better to use
action tag?
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mary rosenblum
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Most of the time, yes.
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marly
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Instead of saying, "he
spoke grimly", would it be better to say, "His voice was
grim." ??
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mary rosenblum
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That works...but you can do
even better, marly.
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mary rosenblum
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The more you show the reader
the body language of your characters, the more real they seem...
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mary rosenblum
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since we infer emotion from
reading body language in the real world.
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mary rosenblum
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What if you replaced 'he spoke
grimly or his voice was grim with: He glared at her.
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mary rosenblum
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If we read his body language
as 'angry', we'll hear a grim, angry tone as he speaks.
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roe
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His grim voice spoke volumes
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mary rosenblum
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That works. That's the POV of
someone besides the speaker, though, just to point it out. :-)
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jmr
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So if we make our writing tight,
and get rid of clutter, are we loosing the adverbs?
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mary rosenblum
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You should lose a lot of them,
jmr.
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mary rosenblum
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think about what you are
saying as you revise... ask yourself if a different verb will work, or if
showing action or body language will convey what that adverb conveys.
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mary rosenblum
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I do that quite consciously as
I revise.
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speckledorf
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Roe's example of "His grim
voice spoke volumes." is "tell" though. It would be better
to "show" the body langauge and let the reader see his
"grimness" right?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, thus my example of 'he
glared at her'. Trust your reader to hear that grim tone since he's
glaring.
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mary rosenblum
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He is clearly not going to
chirp at her!
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roe
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Or how about His grim voice
spoke volumes the glare in his eyes while he stared at her sent shivers up
her spine
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mary rosenblum
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for that, I'd simply give
us...His stare sent shivers up her spine.
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mary rosenblum
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"I don't think you can
leave." His stare sent shivers up her spine.
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seigfried007
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I had always thought of 'grim'
as more woeful than angry. Was I wrong?
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mary rosenblum
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No. One of the things that you
need to realize is that this is what makes prose different from a movie.
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mary rosenblum
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In a movie, you all hear and
see the same things...everyone in the audience.
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mary rosenblum
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In a book, your readers won't
quite hear and see exactly what YOU hear and see...
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mary rosenblum
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it is THEIR world, too, and my
'grim' tone and your 'grim' tone aren't going to be identical.
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mary rosenblum
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I think that's why prose will
never be replaced by visual media.
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mary rosenblum
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We have some control, as
readers.
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mary rosenblum
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And we have some creative
input.
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mary rosenblum
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oops...thunder.... we'll hope
this little cell zips right on past!
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about
the dos and don'ts of adverbs. I've published seven novels and more than 60
short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can
use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works
better for you..
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seigfried007
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he muttered, looking at the
floor and fighting hopelessness...
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seigfried007
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or he whispered to no one in
particular as he stampe the cigarette butt with his boot
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mary rosenblum
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Those are both fine... I would
leave out the muttered and whispered unless it is important that the reader
know he' swhispering or muttering...
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mary rosenblum
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"I don't know." He
looked at the floor, fighting hopelessness.
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mary rosenblum
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I would hear that in a quiet
voice, since he's looking at the floor and depressed...
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mary rosenblum
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so I wouldn't add the
muttered.
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mary rosenblum
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The 'whispered to no one in
particular' may be much more important if he's hanging with a crowd..
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mary rosenblum
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it may tell us that this is an
important statement in some way...
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mary rosenblum
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he's not speaking to anyone
but making a pronouncement.
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info
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Can you specify what may be
wrong with this statement? Megan started to laugh hysterically.
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info
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I was told to get rid of
hysterically as an adverb
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mary rosenblum
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There's nothing grammatically
wrong with 'hysterically'...
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mary rosenblum
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it's just that you should have
made that hysteria clear through the context...if you have, the
'hysterically' is redundant...
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...nobody whispers in
your ear...(she's being hysterical).
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mary rosenblum
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We're going to know she's
hysterical.
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mary rosenblum
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"It was Bob's dead body,
a mushy and rotted. And he said 'Hey, babe,' just like he did every night.
Megan started to laugh.
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mary rosenblum
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Since in this scene everybody
is tense and someone has already died...
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mary rosenblum
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readers will instantly hear
hysteria in her laugh.
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arfelin
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Couldn't "icy blue
eyes" be used to describe both a cold hearted person and the color of
that person's eyes (together)?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, by the rules of grammar,
you have to let us know if his eyes are icy, blue (the comma serves as
short hand for 'and')
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mary rosenblum
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or icy blue (blue, the color
of ice).
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...if I give a character
icy blue eyes, of course it's not just the shade of blue that icy
describes, grammatical rules aside.
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mary rosenblum
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I wsant the reader to think of
him as chilly.
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mary rosenblum
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Even though the icy describes
the blue.
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mary rosenblum
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I doubt I would give a warm,
loving character icy blue eyes!
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seigfried007
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so i should have left the
statement at 'icy blue'?
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on what you want that
word to say...
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mary rosenblum
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are his eyes icy? Or is the
blue a shade of icy?
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mary rosenblum
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We'll still infer a chilly
character, either way.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't confuse grammar with
content here!
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mary rosenblum
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Oh drat, it's pouring. Now
what did I leave outside... :-)
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roe
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Melisssa shivered from his
glare. What a cold unfeeling man.
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mary rosenblum
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That's good. I'd shiver at his
glare... :-)
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seigfried007
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just to get rid of the
confusion. kinda like 'deep red' or a 'light pink'
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, like that.
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ashton
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That's a perfect example....YOU
would hear him say that in a quiet voice....but for other readers they may
not and interpet it differently. Therefor , would adding
"muttered" be a wrong thing???
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mary rosenblum
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Well, ashton, in that
particular case, I'd say it's over control.
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mary rosenblum
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You can't make sure that your
reader perceives an identical universe to the one you see...
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mary rosenblum
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and you can waste a lot of
words in the attempt!
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mary rosenblum
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If a quiet voice or a low
voice as this man stares at the ground, depressed and ready to quit, is
enough to advance the plot okay...
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mary rosenblum
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I wouldn't spend more words
making sure the reader heard a mutter.
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mary rosenblum
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Save your words for important
details.
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mary rosenblum
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I see this in some novice
writers.
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mary rosenblum
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They go into SO MUCH detail to
make sure the reader 'gets it right'...
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mary rosenblum
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that the plot vanishes in a
swamp of detail!
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mary rosenblum
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There IS a nice middle ground
here!
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owlybear
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if you wanted the blue eyes to
be icy would it be better to say blue icy eyes?
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mary rosenblum
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Stick with icy blue eyes,
owly. :-) Impact matters more than gammer here.
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mary rosenblum
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Whether YOU mean that icy to
describe the shade or the eyes directly...
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mary rosenblum
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your reader will assume this
is a chilly human being..
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mary rosenblum
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and nothing will change that
assumption in this sentence.
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seigfried007
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you could also refer to his eyes
as blue and later, to his glare as 'icy'
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mary rosenblum
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sure.
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mary rosenblum
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If my character is not icy,
I'll describe those eyes as pale blue or something like that...
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mary rosenblum
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and later...He gave her an icy
stare.
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mary rosenblum
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Uh oh..fingers crossed...this
is one of our RARE thunder cells and it's rolling overhead.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about
the dos and don'ts of adverbs. I've published seven novels and more than 60
short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If
you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question'
button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Thge main thing with adverbs,
is to avoid using them as...
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mary rosenblum
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the lazy verb. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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She ran slowly... he said
weakly...
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mary rosenblum
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and said gets a LOT of adverbs
that should be dropped along with said and replaced by an action tag!
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speckledorf
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Go for your dial up Mary:-)
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I think it's already
past me...
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mary rosenblum
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heading east at a great rate.
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seigfried007
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amen! thanks for the advice on
the action tag, btw. i'm using it a lot more now
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mary rosenblum
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Action tags will do more to
make your dialogue 'real' than any other tool you can use.
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info
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Is there an easy way to figure
out if and when an adverb is inportant or if it is being lazy?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. Ask yourself; Is there a
better way to say this? A verb I could use?
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mary rosenblum
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If there is not... And she
murmured woodenly is a good example of that...
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mary rosenblum
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then use it.
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seigfried007
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have a thesaurus handy!
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mary rosenblum
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Weeeellll...I wouldn't seig.
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mary rosenblum
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I am NOT a fan of
thesauruses...thesaurii?
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mary rosenblum
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If you don't use a word
regularly, you're may well choose something with a subtle difference in
nuance that will make someone who DOES know the word well laugh.
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geezer
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Are there do's and don'ts for
action tags?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, geezer, don't use them
after EVERY line of dialogue...as with ANY tag line, you use them only when
needed to identify the speaker.
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mary rosenblum
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And when 'he said' is the best
choice, USE it!
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mary rosenblum
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A contrived action tag is no better
than he said.
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mary rosenblum
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But you can get rid of most
'said' or saidism tags easily.
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mary rosenblum
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Many novice writers use a tag
line with every single line of dialogue. That is known as ping pong
dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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Most of the time, the adverbs
paired with 'said' should really go.
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mary rosenblum
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To be replaced by an action
tag.
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mary rosenblum
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I'ts not only part of 'show,
don't tell', it's a matter of words...
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mary rosenblum
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remember that the fewer words
you need to use to create an image in your readers' heads, the stronger
your prose will be.
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info
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I had written a short story for
an assignment. With keeping in mind not to use he said/she said for every
line of dialogue, I used a tag for the first two dialog sentences, leaving
the next three or four without a tag and was told by the reader they had to
go back to figure out who said what. Would this be an isolated case or was
I wrong by not identifying who said those sentences?
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mary rosenblum
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You probably pushed the
'stripped dialogue' a little too long is all, info.
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mary rosenblum
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When you only have two
speakers, you can usually get away with three lines of tagless dialogue,
more if one of the speakers has a very distinctive voice.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have more than two
speakers, you need to identify the speaker more often.
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tory
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I must be old-fashioned. I like
description of languge, but alas, must get use to dropping the afverbs. For
"said weakly," would this work? He slumped into the chair.
"It's gone. All gone."
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. I think nearly all
readers will hear that weak and despairing voice. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Realize, a lot of classical
literature was written in narrative form...
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mary rosenblum
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and the author's voice
predominates.
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mary rosenblum
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There is nothing wrong with
doing that.
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mary rosenblum
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Many books today are written
in narrative form. Certainly nonfiction is. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And fiction is done that way
too. The author baldly tells the story.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you want your reader to
really share the story, you're better off to immerse them and avoid that
narrative.
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ashton
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a little off topic....but I feel
like the word "she/he/or the POV's name" is used too many times
when I work on a story. Is there a way to keep it from being so redundant?
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mary rosenblum
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Don't worry about she/he,
ashton. As with 'said' they are invisible to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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It is not a good idea to
switch from 'he ran into the barn', to 'the lawyer ran into the barn' if
the lawyer is your POV character.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are using limited third
and we are in that POV's head, how often do you think of yourself by your
career title?
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mary rosenblum
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I have not thought of myself
as the writer in a long time. Mostly I think of myself as me.
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roe
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I sure have been reading a lot
of books lately with lots of LY and descriptive words and from well known
authors. Apparently editors and publishers will accept it from proven
authors
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mary rosenblum
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roe, publication is not a
guaratee of quality.
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mary rosenblum
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There is a LOT of dreck on the
bookstore shelves.
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mary rosenblum
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But should you set that as
your goal in life? Up to you.
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mary rosenblum
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Me, I'd rather be better than
that. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And also...this is VERY hard
for nonpublished writers to understand...
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mary rosenblum
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publication does not mean
success.
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mary rosenblum
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It simply means publication.
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mary rosenblum
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You can be published and be
known to people in the publishing world as a mediocre or poor writer...
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mary rosenblum
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and you can have three books
out on the shelves, lose money on every one, and end up with no more books
out there.
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speckledorf
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I've been doing a LOT more
reading lately. Seems to me, the better, award winning authors avoid the
excessive adverb thing. Yes, there are still lots of writers that don't but
the really, really good ones don't.
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mary rosenblum
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And you know what? Once you do
begin publihsing, that difference between GOOD and POOR really begins to
matter. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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When you haven't yet
published, just getting there seems to be the pinnacle of achievement! I
was there, I remember that feeling! Oh yes!
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mary rosenblum
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Later, it's not a matter of
getting published, it's a matter of how good your book is. And oh that does
matter to you, don't worry!
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and tonight we're talking about
the dos and don'ts of adverbs. I've published seven novels and more than 60
short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're
new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or
the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in
order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can
use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works
better for you..
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roe
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Is there a sort of rule as to
how often we should intermix he/she with the character's name?
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mary rosenblum
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I use the character's name as
little as possible roe.
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, in first person you
can't use it!
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mary rosenblum
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When did you last think of
yourself as Roe, unless you were scolding yourself?
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mary rosenblum
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I may think, "Mary you
really are an idiot' but that's about the only time I think of myself by my
name!
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owlybear
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In Stephen King's book "On
Writing" he states that he cringes every time he writes an 'ly' word.
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mary rosenblum
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Most writers do, owly. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It's an automatic
response...using 'to be' verbs does it, too.
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ashton
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I wish there a writing god lived
so we'd KNOW where we truly stand when we publish. (smile)
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mary rosenblum
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ah, ashton, every single one
of us would LOVE that.
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mary rosenblum
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Especially if our sales and
pay were commensurate with quality!
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arfelin
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I've had some poetry published
in a local newspaper years ago and I look back at it now and cringe:-)
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mary rosenblum
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Ha, I bet it's not that bad,
arfelin. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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The real goal to have right
now, is to write strong prose... and learn how to engate your reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Good writing matters.
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mary rosenblum
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If you keep writing, if you're
willing to keep doing it in the face of rejections...you WILL publish and
if you keep doing it you WILL publish regularly.
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mary rosenblum
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The biggest reason people do
not go on to publish is simply...they quit.
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mary rosenblum
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labke
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mary rosenblum
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labtekki, you can type /ask in
your regular send bar...
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labtekki
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i read an article writing
synopsis. it said to go back and
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labtekki
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ireplace all the past tense with
present tense;
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mary rosenblum
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And then do what, labtekki?
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labtekki
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That would be a good practice ly
words too
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mary rosenblum
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Well, synopses are
traditionally written ONLY in present tense, tabtekki. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You could try to replace every
verb/adverb combination with a different verb. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Or an action tag where it
paired with 'said'.
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moderndaypaul
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Even Jerry Jenkins was once told
he should try a different career than writing
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mary rosenblum
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Who hasn't been? I got told
the same. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Most pros I am friends with
ALSO got told not to.
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mary rosenblum
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Steve Perry, whose Star Trek
books make the NYTimes bestseller list...
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mary rosenblum
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got told specifically by a
college prof he'd never be a writer. heheh.
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mary rosenblum
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His pub list is VERY long.
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mary rosenblum
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And he's one of the few
writers I know who supports his family entirely on his fiction writing.
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ashton
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I'm trying hard to
"show" thought using the one or two word sentences...instead of
saying "she thought." But is it okay to mix the two in a story or
should it only be one or the other?
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes you simply need,
'she thought' ashton.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...it is the final
result that counts.
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mary rosenblum
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If you cut out every to be
verb, but some of your sentences are really convoluted so that you can
avoid using 'was', is that really better?
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mary rosenblum
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The ultimate goal is
readability.
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mary rosenblum
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Strive for that.
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mary rosenblum
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Strong prose, vivid images
with few words..
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mary rosenblum
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to get that, you will need to
use few to be verbs, fewer adverbs...
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mary rosenblum
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but 'NONE' can be a rule that
gets you in trouble.
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wingedwarrior24
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off track here, in part two or
break in to print, will the instructor decide length of story?
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mary rosenblum
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You have word limits, winged,
but they get longer. :-) And they're a bit more negotiable...you're my
student aren't you? Or someone elses?
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mary rosenblum
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'Negotiable' depends on the
instructor. :-)
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wingedwarrior24
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yours
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I'd rather see a good
story its natural length, but that does not mean I'm gonna accept 30 pages
of glop! LOL
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jr souza jr
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I'm still digesting an earlier
comment and I guess I need a little more clarity. I understand that Fiction
is more engaging when you write tight strong show dont tell prose. But,
earlier you indicated that non-fiction tends to be more narrative and that
this is okay as we are connecting with the authors voice and expertise.
Does this mean that the use of adverbs in non-fiction is more common?
Certainly we can't spend valuable space and words building enviroment in
non-fiction when we are trying to relate or present research and its
conclusion or impact.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, the reason narrative is
used in nonfiction is that the author is telling us something.
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mary rosenblum
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how to grow a great garden.
How to can tomatoes. About his experiences in 'Nam...
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mary rosenblum
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in fiction, we are presenting
the character to the reader so that the reader can follow that character's
adventures.
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mary rosenblum
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We are the 'main character' in
nonfiction...we authors...
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mary rosenblum
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and in personal narrative
we're very present (his experiences in 'Nam), and in informational
articles, we are pretty invisible (Ball's Blue Book of Canning).
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mary rosenblum
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But the rulse of strong prose
matter just as much or more here!
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mary rosenblum
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When an editor is paying you a
buck or two per word, that editor is NOT going to pay for words he/she will
simply edit out!
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labtekki
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so is it okay to use ly
occassionally?
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mary rosenblum
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Only when it is necessary...ie
you can't think of a better way to put it.
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ashton
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Think I've got it now...really,
it's what sounds good to the ear in the end. Usually, it red flags in my
own ear and I know something needs to be changed. Sometimes we can try too
hard and miss the forest for the trees.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a mix of what sounds
good, as well as what creates a strong image in your mind. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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The rhythm of the words
matter. I often search for another word...
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mary rosenblum
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not because the one I have
isn't the right meaning, but rather it sounds 'clunky' to me...
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mary rosenblum
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and I want one that makes the
rhythm stronger.
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info
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off the subject a little, but
what are your thoughts about cliches in a story?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, cliches are
cliches...accepted bits of cut and paste. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If you have a reason to use
it, fine, but otherwise, readers recognize them as cardboard cutouts.
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mary rosenblum
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Now you can make that work for
you...
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mary rosenblum
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many humorous pieces are
populated with cliches that make us somehow rethink those cliches. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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As far as characters in a
story, I wouldn't go there.
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mary rosenblum
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cardboard is
cardboard...reminds your reader your stage is nothing but a curtain and
painted backdrop!
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mary rosenblum
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Why not strive for reality?
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...
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mary rosenblum
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if you write a story with a
dynamite main character and a host of cliche characters...
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mary rosenblum
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and it's up against a story
with a dynamite main character and some vividly drawn secondary
characters...
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mary rosenblum
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you want to tell me which one
the editor will buy?
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jr souza jr
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I guess that is where I am torn.
I understand the editor is looking for word economy along with clarity so
the use of adverbs do get to many points -- not all -- faster. As an out of
context example we would get to our point with 'laughed hystericly' faster
and more precise than with building the scene that shows us a hyterical
laugh ????
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mary rosenblum
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But jr...you can get to the
end of a novel faster by simply saying: Dave fell in love with Joan, but
she was in love with Brad, and when the two were in the army together,...
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mary rosenblum
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Dave had a chance to save Brad
or let him die and he saved him...
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mary rosenblum
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And that really takes us to
the end fast!
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mary rosenblum
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But is it a satisfying read?
We know now what happened...
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mary rosenblum
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And while editors DO want
economy of words...
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mary rosenblum
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they want power to engage
readers...
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mary rosenblum
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economy of word simply means
they don't want to pay for words they are simply going to remove!
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jr souza jr
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in non-fiction
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mary rosenblum
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Same thing.
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mary rosenblum
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In informational pieces, you
need to get your point across...BUT...
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mary rosenblum
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read a computer manual lately?
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mary rosenblum
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You want prose that is strong
enough to keep readers reading and remembering.
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mary rosenblum
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For nonfiction, just memorize
Zinsser's On Writing Well...and you'll be fine. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You're actually not going to
use a lot of adverbs in nonfiction informational stuff anyway.
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mary rosenblum
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But essentially the same rules
apply.
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mary rosenblum
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And if I write stronger than
you, the editor will call ME when she wants a new article! :-)
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neo
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Reading about something is not
nearly as interesting as witnessing it.
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mary rosenblum
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And there you have it, neo!
That is 'show, don't tell' in a nutshell.
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jmr
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You don't want to reveal too
much story too soon, right? Holding some of it back and allowing it to
build or unfold will add tension or suspense. So this could add words in
telling a good story, couldn't it?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. And if you create deep
characters, it will require more words than if you use cliches...
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...a story has its natural
length and an editor will buy a good story even if it IS long.
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janp
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Memorize Zinsser? Surely you
jest!!!
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I don't have it
memorized, but I DO reread it every year or so.
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speckledorf
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Is true about editor's wanting
strong writing. I'd rather have something strong and engaging than
something that meets the word count.
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mary rosenblum
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Most of my early published
works were pushing novelette or WERE novelette in length.
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mary rosenblum
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I couldn't write short back
then!
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sweett
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This is off subject but I
started a blog, vastexpanse@blogspot.com. Everyone welcome to visit
although only one post right now.
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mary rosenblum
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Cool, sweett! I'll have to
start a blog index on LR.
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moderndaypaul
|
I'm a rookie, here, I'll admit.
How do you build dep characters?
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mary rosenblum
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Wow, modernday...that's an
entire forum on its own!
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mary rosenblum
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A bit more than I can answer
in a few words...but you'll find articles on it...
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mary rosenblum
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as well as past forums that go
into detail...
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mary rosenblum
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check into Writing Craft:
Characters on the website...and forum transcripts, also in writing craft.
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roe
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sounds like a good Tuesday forum
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mary rosenblum
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Characters, roe?
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mary rosenblum
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I could do that...we haven't
done it for awhile.
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jr souza jr
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or a log of blogs so people can
add ther own for your approval ;-)
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mary rosenblum
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I like the log of blogs!
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mary rosenblum
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Don't have any way for people
to post here...except in the post it.
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jr souza jr
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meant blog of blogs
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mary rosenblum
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Oh that's a thought...someone
should start one on blogspot.
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arfelin
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MAKE EVERY WORD COUNT by Gary
Provast is also a good learning tool.
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mary rosenblum
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Haven't read it, arfelin. Why
don't you write me a review and I'll post it on the website.
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moderndaypaul
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Are Tuesday nights the only
nights you have forums?
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mary rosenblum
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Friday nights like tonight,
modern...Tuesday mornings at 10 Pacific, 11 mt, 12 central, and 1 pm east
coast.
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mary rosenblum
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Provost, not Provast...didn't
catch the correction in time.
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mary rosenblum
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Modernday, I'll do a 'how to
craft a deep character' next Friday.
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mary rosenblum
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How's that?
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mary rosenblum
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That's a full forum, believe
me!
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post this transcript to
the usual place: Writing Craft; Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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And drop in Sunday
evening...same time as this Forum...
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mary rosenblum
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for our casual chat.
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mary rosenblum
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I won't have to run off this
week!
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moderndaypaul
|
What time? If I'm not totally
exhausted by next Friday, I'll be here
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mary rosenblum
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5 PM pacific, 6 pm mt, 7 pm
central and 8 pm east coast.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
Well, I'm off...our
thunderstorm has now passed, too.
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mary rosenblum
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And I survived...so did my
computer.
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mary rosenblum
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See you all on Sunday 1
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend, all!
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jmr
|
So, who's the guy what invented
all these -ly words we shouldn't use! Where does he live, let's get him!
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mary rosenblum
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I believe his name was Tingly!
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mary rosenblum
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See you all!
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