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mary rosenblum
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Hello all and good
morning..well noon if you're way east of me!
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mary rosenblum
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This is our Tuesday Form.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you all had a great
weekend.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about Author Voice today. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about 'author
voice' today, because a lot of notice writers and students have questions
about it.
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redraven
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How does author voice differ
from author style?
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mary rosenblum
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It's the same thing, redraven.
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mary rosenblum
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Terminology is quite loose in
the world of writing. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It is a combination of a lot
of factors and some you can control consciously, and others you probably
cannot.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you CAN, but you really
have to be very self aware of your own voice and keep it in mind as you
write. Tough to do.
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redraven
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How does author voice differ
from author style?
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mary rosenblum
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It doesn't, redraven. As I
just said, they're the same thing, just different words.
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tkat_2
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Is "author voice" the
same as third person omniscient? I hope I spelled that right. :)
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for asking that,
tkat...
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mary rosenblum
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because this is one of those
confusing intersections in writing terminology.
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mary rosenblum
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When you are using third
person POV and your exposition is essentially the author breaking in to
tell the reader something, that is an intrusion of 'authorial voice'.
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mary rosenblum
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But 'voice' in general is
equated to style...and it's the same thing you do when you create a
character voice...
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mary rosenblum
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when you give your character
particular turns of phrase, idiom, vocabularly and the like
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mary rosenblum
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Only YOUR voice is you, your
style of putting sentences together, the phrases you like to use, the way
you make all your characters behave generally.
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mary rosenblum
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It is your signature as a
writer...
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mary rosenblum
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and good readers can identify
you by your 'voice' even without seeing your name on a work.
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wingedwarrior24
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Would you be able to give us an
example of controled and uncontrolled voice?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, that's hard to do as an
example, but I can explain what I mean.
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mary rosenblum
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I write, for example, in a
certain way, with a fairly strong pace, with a certain mix of
description/action/dialogue...
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mary rosenblum
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Now I may decide that for a
particular piece, I want a more spare, driving style than I usually do, so
I will consciously pay attention to the prose...
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mary rosenblum
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as I write it. It is a BIG
effort believe me, and I can't really make myself sound too 'different'...
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mary rosenblum
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but I can make this piece
sound a bit unusual for me.
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mary rosenblum
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The best person to tell you
what your personal style or voice is composed of is a really good copy
editor.
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mary rosenblum
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I've learned quite a bit about
my own 'tropes' from a acouple.
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mary rosenblum
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Good editors will tell you
what you do, too, but the copy editors really forcus on the words.
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redraven
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So your mysteries are written in
the same style as your science fiction?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, there are superficial
stylistic differences necessitated by the disparate genres, but in terms of
how I write...I'll illustrate.
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mary rosenblum
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When my second mystery was in
production, I got a call late one night from New York...
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mary rosenblum
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it was from a free lance copy
editor who was working for Penguin-Putnam. He said he was copy editing my
book Deadly Nightshade...
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mary rosenblum
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and then he said he had copy
edited two SF novels for Del Rey by Mary Rosenblum, and he was pretty sure
they were by the same author and were they?
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mary rosenblum
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That was his private
hobby...connecting pseudonyms. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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He was very pleased with
himself and I was genuinely impressed.
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geezer
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Are there catagories of voice?
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mary rosenblum
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Not really.
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mary rosenblum
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What your 'voice' is, is a
combination of your vocabulary, the way you normally put words together,
your world view and prejudices.
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mary rosenblum
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While you can superficially
change your writing, those deeper similarities show through.
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wingedwarrior24
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Do these voices reflect your
personality or mood?
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mary rosenblum
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Both, winged.
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mary rosenblum
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I can usually get a pretty
good sense of what a writer is like by reading their fiction..several
examples.
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mary rosenblum
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And you can often see the
reflection of life's complications in the work of various authors.
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mary rosenblum
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Their stories might be darker
and more violent, say, during that nasty divorce or right after Dad died.
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mary rosenblum
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Your voice will evolve with
your writing, but it's essentially your voice all along.
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mary rosenblum
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You can flat out copy
Hemingway and that's not going to turn your voice into an echo of
Hemingway.
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whistlin_smithy
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Hmmm, "deeper
similarities" might be an interesting idea for a murder mystery. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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uit
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mary rosenblum
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It would, smithy. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about Author Voice today. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu can superficially alter
your style...work hard at making it terse and driving where you normally
write with a leisurely, decriptive-rich flow...
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mary rosenblum
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but it's still going to sound
like you, overall. And you simply won't see your own style...
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mary rosenblum
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at this stage.
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mary rosenblum
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It's something that copy
editors, editors, and reviewers will describe to you.
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mary rosenblum
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It took me many years before I
could begin to actually sort out what made up my voice.
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redraven
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As one's writing improves, does
voice change?
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mary rosenblum
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Not dramatically...because
your voice reflects YOU...but it does change some as your craft matures...
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mary rosenblum
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and you get better at what you
do, more conscious of your tropes and habits.
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geezer
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Good for a forensics
investigator
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mary rosenblum
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Well, the unibomber was caught
because his brother recognized the style of his writing when his rant was
published.
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coach
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Mary, one of the problems I had
as an English teacher was explaining the difference between voice and tone
as literary devices. Could you expand on this-e.g. how are they related?
Different? You mentioned recognizing when an author has a rough life
patch-will YOUR mood always show through in your author voice?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, the way I would define
it, coach, is that voice is the unconscious style and tone is the conscious
style.
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mary rosenblum
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I will consciously choose to
give a story a dark tone, a light tone, a supsenseful tone, an angry
tone...
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mary rosenblum
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and while I can consciously
control my voice to some extent as I implement that...there is a deeper
'signature' that is going to be there...
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mary rosenblum
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no matter what the tone I use.
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mary rosenblum
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King sounds like King whether
he's writing mainstream as Bachman or It.
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dale
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What are tropes?
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mary rosenblum
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Unconscious habits, dale.
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mary rosenblum
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Using a particular phrase or
word frequently, that sort of thing.
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mary rosenblum
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I had one copy editor who gave
me a list of all my tropes. Whew!
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gwanny
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A good actor becomes the
character. Is that what you mean? We have to live it? figuritivly speaking!
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mary rosenblum
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That's good characterization,
gwanny, and that's what you aim for...to submerge yourself in your
character...
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mary rosenblum
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to the point where you are
using the character's voice, not your own...
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mary rosenblum
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and you can achieve that to
some degree...but you'll still sound like you. :-)
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tenavari
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So then what is meant by Scince
Fiction Tropes?
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mary rosenblum
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Probably cliches, tenavari...
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mary rosenblum
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things that get used all the
time...FTL travel, human-like aliens, that sort of stuff.
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serendipity
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Sometimes I get caught up in
what I think the editor would..
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serendipity
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want my voice to be but
essentially my voice is my voice...
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serendipity
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regardless then?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you do to some
degree...you can indeed consciously alter the style you are using.
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mary rosenblum
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I might write something that
is spare, with minimal description, lots of action and a driving pace for a
particular market.
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mary rosenblum
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Certainly when I'm writing YA
my style is different than when I am writing adult SF or mystery.
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mary rosenblum
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You should not sound exactly
the same every time you write.
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mary rosenblum
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But no matter how you vary
that style consciously, there is a deeper layer that reflects YOU the
writer and that is what voice is.
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coach
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that list of tropes must have
been "enlightening." I know when my students used to a
light-hearted impersonation I was always surpeised to see my speech habits,
etc spelled out in front of me. Those unconscious things we don't
realize-or think no oe else realizes.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, no kidding, coach. It was
very enlightening and I have dropped several habits because of it, and
still struggle with others! :-)
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wingedwarrior24
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Side stepping a little, am I
correct in thinking that one thought should not be broken into two
sentnces?
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mary rosenblum
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Want to give me an example,
winged?
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're
talking about Author Voice today. If you're new here, remember that you
need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to
the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question
icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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You can consciously change the
way you write...and you should do that.
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mary rosenblum
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That 'conscious layer' of
style, and flexibility with it, is a very valuable tool...especially in
nonfiction where style MATTERS.
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whistlin_smithy
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Do you think "voice"
in writing could be likened to mannerisms in speech, using the hands in a
particular unconscious gesture, a particular unconscious facial expression
?
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, smithy. It is what
makes your work sound like YOU no matter what you are writing.
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wingedwarrior24
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Mark and Betty looked at the
subjects. The subjects looked back with poker faces...should this be one
sentnce?
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on the effect I want
to achieve, winged.
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mary rosenblum
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This form...two
sentences...lends the prose a stacatto feel, suggesting a tense situation.
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mary rosenblum
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Mark and Betty look at the
subjects, who looked back with poker faces...
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mary rosenblum
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is smoother, and therefore
feels less 'tense'.
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mary rosenblum
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Use the flow of your prose
like background music.
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mary rosenblum
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You know how the music changes
when the monster is about to jump out of the closet in a movie?
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mary rosenblum
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You do the same thing with
your words. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Now that's conscious style...
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mary rosenblum
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And that's how I tend to use
style versus voice...
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mary rosenblum
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style is a conscious level and
voice is the unconscious level.
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mercyme
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Some people do not know what a
poker face is !correct?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, mercyme, if you are
writing a story for the average American you can be pretty sure that most
of them will know what it means...
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mary rosenblum
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and while you may confuse the
5 percent who do not, you will really mar your story if you stop to
explain.
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mary rosenblum
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You always have to
balance...will most of my readers get this or should I explain?...because
explanation will slow down your story.
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tolkienlvr
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Mary, another slight aside. Are
there particular tips you can share about what style differences publishers
tend to look for b/t YA and adult mysteries?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, tolkien. There are
general style differences between genres...
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mary rosenblum
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which is why I always
encourage novice novel writers to write in the genre they read.
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mary rosenblum
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If you always read mystery,
for example, you know how mystery works.
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mary rosenblum
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You may not be able to spell
it out, but it will 'feel' right to you...
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mary rosenblum
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and you'll come close to the
style the editor is looking for.
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mary rosenblum
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With experience you can learn
to identify the style of an unfamiliar genre...
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mary rosenblum
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but you have to understand
style well enough to see what the consistencies are, because of course,
each author is going to write differently...
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mary rosenblum
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we are not cookie cutters...so
you have to differentiate personal style from the larger issues of what the
'genre style' is.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not really easy to do if
you're a novice.
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geezer
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So how do I ID my tropes? Do I
wait for an editor to point it out? Assuming anyone answers me. Pout.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, you'll get much better
feedback from good readers, geezer.
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mary rosenblum
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When you start hearing the
same complaint over and over again, pay attention.
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whistlin_smithy
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Do you think reading for a
specific purpose, as opposed to reading for entertainment, for example, can
help us learn to identify "voice" and a particular style?
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mary rosenblum
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Absolutely.
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mary rosenblum
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I did and still do that a LOT.
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mary rosenblum
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Sit down with a book and when
something strikes you...wow, this is really good characterization...the
prose really seems lovely...
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mary rosenblum
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I can really see the action
perfectly....
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mary rosenblum
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go back and analyze it. How
did the author make that happen?
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mary rosenblum
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What did she DO?
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mary rosenblum
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Take it apart, line by line.
What made this work when MY dialogue doesn't work this well?
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mary rosenblum
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Copy it. Write a similar scene
and do the same thing.
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wingedwarrior24
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Jenna bent down and tied her
sneaker. Opening the closet she brought out her favortie jeans and put them
on. Going to her drawers she found the perfect shirt to match her jeans.
Should this all be together in one sentnce?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, grammar really isn't the
issue here, but story is.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a choppy read, with
each action occupying a single sentence, AND it uses a bunch of words to
show us three very trivial actions on the part of Jenna.
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mary rosenblum
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Unless you want to, in effect,
focus a spotlight on Jenna's act of getting dressed (she is about to leave
for a foster home and is dragging her feet...delaying the departure)...
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mary rosenblum
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then this is kind of a klunky
way to do it. (Not to mention it's hard to put your jeans on AFTER you put
on your shoes, LOL).
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mary rosenblum
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I would probably use something
like Jeann put on her favorite jeans and found the perfect shirt.
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mary rosenblum
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Tying her sneakers in a rush,
she pounded down the stairs.
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serendipity
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When I find a writer
predictable, is that due to their trope
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mary rosenblum
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When you find a writer
predictable, what you're seeing is that they don't vary that conscious
style much. Some writers ARE very predictable...the characters behave the
same...
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mary rosenblum
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you'll find similar types of
character in each story, the prose never varies much...
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mary rosenblum
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That's why I always suggest
you intentionally try to write in ways you do not 'normally' write...try
new things, work on new styles.
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gwanny
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I read somewhere that reading
your ms outloud wil help you "hear"your style.
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mary rosenblum
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Even better, Gwanny, read it
in public at a reading!
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mary rosenblum
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Boy did I fix a few stylistic
'klunks' after I started doing public readings. Whew!
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pliz
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Wher do you get good readers?
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mary rosenblum
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arefelin has one answer
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arfelin
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I took your advice, Mary, and
joined a critque group. It's an online workshop with members from different
countries. I've been learning about some of my tropes from them.
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mary rosenblum
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You can meet people here on
the website, go to anything local that involves writing or writers and meet
local writers and aspiring writers.
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sfnovelwriter
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So it's a challenge to not fall
into patterns that are safe?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, sf...
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mary rosenblum
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While readers like
predictable...Just imagine the outcry if Rowling did something totally
unlike Harry Potter, LOL...
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mary rosenblum
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on the other hand, in general,
it limits you as a writer.
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redraven
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Can you give an example of such
a klunk?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, little things that you
realize are used too often when you keep reading 'em out loud, red.
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mary rosenblum
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I had characters rolling their
eyes, WAY too often.
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mary rosenblum
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I rarely use that now, and
always with a conscious flinch. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Things like that.
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mary rosenblum
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We all have a tendency to use
things over and over.
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roe
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Is that the proper use of an ing
word. I thought the action had to follow through? and she can't tie her
sneakers while she goes down the stairs? I get so confused when to use an
ing word
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mary rosenblum
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There was an implied, 'then'
in there.
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mary rosenblum
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Be careful of being too correct
in fiction, roe.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu need to reflect your
character's voice...poetic license rules. :-)
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serendipity
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reader gets bord and can guess
the unfolding of events?
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mary rosenblum
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Yep...this is the bane of the
series writer's existance.
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mary rosenblum
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I have read mystery series for
years, and I judge the skill of the writer by the book at which I stop
reading the series...
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mary rosenblum
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because I know what's going to
happen by chapter three. :-)
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sfnovelwriter
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Any plans here for a critique
group or a place to post work
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mary rosenblum
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Not online, sf...the issue of
compromised first rights and plagirism are just too difficult to deal with
on this type of public website.
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mary rosenblum
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You can attend the casual
chats and get to know people...find people to swap stories with.
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mary rosenblum
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You can always create a
private room on the site and get together to discuss a story in 'real
time'.
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mary rosenblum
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I do that with long distance
readers at times.
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mary rosenblum
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The casual chats are M, W, F
at 10 am Pacific, 11 Mt, 12 Central, and 1 pm East coast...
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mary rosenblum
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and we get together on Sundays
at 5 pm pacific, 6 mt, 7 central, and 8 PM east coast.
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whistlin_smithy
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So would you say
"voice" is one of the many identifying characteristics of some
op-ed and humor writers that makes them so popular? Is that something they
would consciously try to bring to the fore in their writing because of it's
marketable quality?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, again, smithy, you have
conscious style and voice, and yes...
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mary rosenblum
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in a writer like Patrick
McManus for example, he is focusing on his humor and his voice...
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mary rosenblum
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because in a personal
narrative/humor writer like that, you DO use the same style every
time...that is why people are buying your books!
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tellastory
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Good Morning Mary. So do you
feel writing critique groups
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tellastory
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are safe or not?
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mary rosenblum
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I think they are very safe,
tell...
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mary rosenblum
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but a public website is not.
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mary rosenblum
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AND material posted on the LR
website, for example, where everyone can read it, is technically published.
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mary rosenblum
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But in terms of writers
groups, they can be very very valuable.
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mary rosenblum
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You have a support group you
can share your rejections with, deadlines you have to meet, and you will
learn a LOT by telling someone else how to make their story better.
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mary rosenblum
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I would never send out a piece
of work that hadn't been read by at least one person and usually more like
three.
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mary rosenblum
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The best way to really learn
the application of craft is to critique someone else's work...
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mary rosenblum
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honestly trying to help them
make it better.
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mary rosenblum
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You can see problems in
others' work long before you can see the same problems in YOUR work. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Hmmm...I think I'll do our
Friday Forum on Writers Groups. :-)
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arfelin
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The online critque group that I
belong to is private. You're put on a list and everything you sub or
critque goes out to everyone on that list. And you have to promise not to
share anything in the workshop with anyone not in it.
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mary rosenblum
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And that works fine.
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wingedwarrior24
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Do you consider sending work to
LR teacher a critique?
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mary rosenblum
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Of course. That's what the
course DOES...
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mary rosenblum
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although your instructor is
pretty experienced compared to a peer critique group.
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mary rosenblum
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But that's essentially all I
do as LR instructor...
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mary rosenblum
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I tell the student how to make
this story or article work better.
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mary rosenblum
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And you DO have a recognizable
voice. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I recently got a piece with no
name or student number on it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Accident. :-) But I thought I
recognized the student by the writing and sure enough...it was him.
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mary rosenblum
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So how did I know?
Hmmm...here's a good example...
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mary rosenblum
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let me see if I can
reconstruct my thought process here...
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mary rosenblum
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He has a very young voice (he
IS young) and he writes with a lot of today's jargon, grammar and sentence
structure are not terribly sophisticated and pretty
conversational-English...
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mary rosenblum
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and he uses a lot of action
and dialogue normally with minimal description and rarely if ever uses any
internal POV.
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mary rosenblum
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And he has a middle class
white American teenager's world view.
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mary rosenblum
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So there you are.
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mary rosenblum
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Voice.
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mary rosenblum
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There's a lot more that's a
lot more difficult to quantify...
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mary rosenblum
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sort of like hearing a passage
of music...I can know it when I hear it again, but I couldn't write down
the exact notes.
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mary rosenblum
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While your voice will find
YOU...it is part of you...
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mary rosenblum
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you can and should learn to
consciously vary your style so that everything you write...
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mary rosenblum
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is not as easily quantifiable
as the student I mentioned.
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mary rosenblum
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A flexible and strong writer
can vary that conscious style a lot, so that you recognize voice the way
you'd recognize music...
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mary rosenblum
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it sounds familiar.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't worry about 'damaging'
your voice by experimenting with styles, or flat out copying a writer you
like.
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mary rosenblum
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I did that a lot when I was
first learning.
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mary rosenblum
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It's GREAT practice.
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redraven
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Can we post public domain stuff
(or links to) at this site?
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mary rosenblum
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You can post things on the
Post It redraven.
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mary rosenblum
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An excellent writing exercise
is to read a scene by an author whose style you just LOVE...
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mary rosenblum
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and then write the scene over
again...try your best to do it exactly the same way...
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mary rosenblum
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and then compare.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a direct look at the
difference between what that writer did and what you did.
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mary rosenblum
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Great way to learn how
something works.
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mary rosenblum
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Think of it as learning a
dance step.
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mary rosenblum
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You practice the move,
awkwardly at first, and your muscles 'remember' that move.
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mary rosenblum
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You copy someone's strong
action scene, say, and next time you write an action scene...
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mary rosenblum
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your writing muscles
'remember' what worked.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I'm going to post this
in the usual place...
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good week, all, and do
drop into our casual chat in the morning.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, okay, noon for some of
you. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good week!
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for coming!
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