Forum Transcripts

Endings: 7/29/05

Event start time:

Fri Jul 29 19:04:05 2005

Event end time:

Fri Jul 29 20:34:01 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all.

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After hours.

mary rosenblum

I don't know how many of you were able to participate in our online chat with Dolph LeMoult last night...

mary rosenblum

but his publisher was present. :-) I had a quiet conversation with her afterward, and she will be our guest here later this year.

mary rosenblum

They publish Young Adult fiction in all genres, and this should be a very interesting visit. Stay tuned.

roe

cool Who is it Mary

mary rosenblum

His publisher is Brown Barn Books. The senior editor was present, Nancy Hammerslough.

wolf122

The guest talks seem to slow down really bad when they try to answer posted questions--is that an inherit problem in the programming or just slow typing? The prev. Thurs was like that too.

mary rosenblum

Dolph was a slow typist, wolf.

mary rosenblum

Some guests are faster than others, but they have to compose their replies.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes a slow dial-up connection is the problem..

mary rosenblum

I've had a few guests that might has well have been using carrier pigeons!

wolf122

Oh, sorry. Thought my computer was crashing!

mary rosenblum

I know. I ask guests to break up long posts, but when they type slowly or have a feeble dial-up, there's no way to reduce that lag time...

tami74

that explains it...i thought maybe she was his student

mary rosenblum

-)

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about endings today...

mary rosenblum

because one of the most comment complaints I get from novice writers is...

mary rosenblum

"I don't know how to end it"

drakeluvr

What's with the chat? Sometimes I'll write something and I won't see it appear, but know it goes through when someone remarks on it

mary rosenblum

Might be their connection is faster than yours, drake.

neo

How do you choose guests, Mary?

mary rosenblum

I look for people who have some experience that will help the various levels of aspiring writers who use the site and are students, neo.

mary rosenblum

I focus on trying to expose people to the world of publishing...something you generally only learn once you begin to publish!

ashton

Hi Mary! You're talking about endings tonight, right? I've got a question. Does the ending of a short story or novella,ect. have to answer all the questions or do you only have to answer and solve the main plotted question cause I'm not sure how to leave the reader content but wanting more.

mary rosenblum

Probably THE biggest beginner myth is that you should leave something unanswered to 'make the reader want more'. That just doesn't work.

mary rosenblum

What happens is that your readers are angry at you because they want their gratification NOW, not later.

mary rosenblum

What will make your readers want more is good writing.

mary rosenblum

They like the story, they love the characters...

mary rosenblum

if they see your name again, they snatch up the book or magazine and read it.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about endings tonight. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

neo

Do you ever address nonfiction or is this only for fiction?

mary rosenblum

I do, neo. I've done forums on nonfiction topics and I bring in NF guests. I just write a whole lot more fiction professionally, so I know more about it and have more contacts in that universe.

speckledorf

I HATE being left hanging at the end of a story.

mary rosenblum

Most readers do. :-)

drakeluvr

Doesn't that all depend on how many stories you're writing? Like the Harry Potter series?

mary rosenblum

To some extent, but not a large one.

mary rosenblum

Most of the successful series tie up the main plot points in that book...

mary rosenblum

and larger overarching issues may continue from book to book.

ashton

Say Mike dies in your story and the reader knows...or thinks he knows what happened to him.....in a sequel you could say that Mike didn't die like everyone thought...and that would work, right

mary rosenblum

Sure.

mary rosenblum

AS long as your end is satisfying in book one with Mike dead.

mary rosenblum

If your end is NOT satisfying, they may not read book two to find out they're wrong!

mary rosenblum

Never save the best until later.

mary rosenblum

You may not have a later.

wolf122

Would you use a hook at the end of say book one for the next in a trilogy? Or would you use a strong hook in book two reminding readers of book one?

mary rosenblum

I wouldn't use a strong hook at the end of a book wolf. It may be two years until the next installment is out.

mary rosenblum

That leaves your readers time to 'go flat' on that hook. Put the hook in the beginning of two and reprise what you need to of one.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about endings tonight. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

t green

Mary, I just got a note back from an editor. She noted she was hooked at the beginning and middle, but the end fell flat. How to fix that?

mary rosenblum

That is so common, t.

mary rosenblum

While I can't give you my opinion on why THIS end read flat to her, it is something that often happens...

mary rosenblum

and mostly for a similar reason.

mary rosenblum

The reason has to do with what an ending does.

mary rosenblum

It is the resolution of your conflict.

mary rosenblum

What often happens is that the author mis identifies the central conflict...and thus does not resolve it.

mary rosenblum

And the ending is flat.

mary rosenblum

OR, the central conflict is resolved early...maybe in the middle of the story...

mary rosenblum

and again, the end is flat.

mary rosenblum

It is not always easy to tell what your central conflict really is, especially when you are first starting out.

neo

How did Stephen King keep many of us hooked for years and years before he completed the Dark Tower series?

mary rosenblum

He gave readers what they wanted and lots kept reading...but...lots did not.

mary rosenblum

The ones who came back liked what he wrote and were willing to wait.

whistlin_smithy

This reminds me of the early tv and radio serials. Used to drive us nuts waiting to see if Superman, or the Dark Shadow got the bad guys, etc.

mary rosenblum

Yes, smithy...'cliffhangers' were the norm then...'stay tuned'! And the hero was dangling over a deadly precipice. :-)

mary rosenblum

That doesn't work as well when he or she has to dangle there for two years. LOL

ashton

Give each story your all, cause in the next one you'll come up with an even better idea even if you don't think that's possible while working on book story #1, right?

mary rosenblum

Yep. And remember...it is the way you write not what you write that brings readers back.

mary rosenblum

So don't save your 'best' for later!

drakeluvr

Like in a story I'm working on, the MC sees someone kill someone else, and then he finds out that it was someone in disguise, and not the person he thought it was

mary rosenblum

You can do that.

mary rosenblum

I would make sure that the end is not a bummer for your readers though.

mary rosenblum

Will they go away unhappy because this guy seems to be dead?

mary rosenblum

THey're not necessarily going to read your next segment to see if they were wrong.

mary rosenblum

You run the risk of them saying "I'll spend my money on someone else's book'.

wolf122

In a trilogy, every book should be a stand alone novel, while incorporating an overal plot arc?

mary rosenblum

Most readers and editors feel this is the best way to do it. If a reader picks up Two, they can enjoy the story and then buy one and three...

mary rosenblum

But you do have 'slice of sausage' series. JRR's is one.

mary rosenblum

I was loaned book two of the trilogy first. Talk about LOST! Whew.

mary rosenblum

Mostly those are single books that were huge and were sliced up for publishing reasons.

owlybear

Leaving a reader hanging would be similar to any TV show that is usually a one hour program, but occasionally they will make it longer and continue next week... if you're watching with friends , everyone usually groans and in some cases cuss a bit because the story didn't end that night, so they have to tune in again to find out what happens...

mary rosenblum

Yep...and again, the wait time is less with TV.

mary rosenblum

YOu lose that 'suspense' when the wait lasts for months and years.

mary rosenblum

A good friend of mine pretty effectively killed her SF career...she won Hugo with a novel...

mary rosenblum

and it was VERY popular. She then took about five years to finish the sequel.

mary rosenblum

When it came out, her readers had forgotten her, weren't willing to pay hardcover price any more.

mary rosenblum

She really got clobbered in terms of her sales figures.

starr r

So what DO you do when you can't think of an ending? What's the solution?

mary rosenblum

What you need to do is sit back and think about your story.

mary rosenblum

Ask yourself, 'what needs to get fixed here'?

mary rosenblum

Not just in terms of your external plot, but in terms of the internal plot, too.

mary rosenblum

You may have done one of two things...you may have resolved the central conflict early without realizing it...

mary rosenblum

so that your end doesn't really do anything.

mary rosenblum

Or you may have missed the real central conflict in your story and not resolved it at all.

mary rosenblum

Or you may simply have no conflict.

mary rosenblum

If you don't have a strong conflict, there's nothing really to resolve and the story just trails off.

mary rosenblum

It can take a bit of practice before creating a strong conflict becomes second nature!

drakeluvr

Yikes... that I assume is why Editors get you on schedules

mary rosenblum

Oh, the five year thing? Well, yeah, she had a schedule. But they really don't break your knees if you don't turn in the book on time!

mary rosenblum

You mostly hurt yourself.

mary rosenblum

Same thing happened to Guterson with ''snow falling on cedars'.

mary rosenblum

But that wasn't a sequel issue...just late with the book.

neo

Isn't it better to know where your story is going before you start writing it? Isn't that what outlining is all about?

mary rosenblum

Sure, BUT, neo, a novel is an organic thing.

mary rosenblum

As you begin to write, your characters, main and secondary, grow and evolve...

mary rosenblum

and new subplots and plot twists come to mind. Most of us find that by the time we're halfway through the book...

mary rosenblum

we have diverged quite a bit from our original intent.

mary rosenblum

Can happen even in a short story a new things occur to you.

mary rosenblum

So often, the end that worked in the outline stage...

mary rosenblum

is no longer the best end when you finally get there.

whistlin_smithy

Do you thinik Tolkien might be a good example of this? He spent a lifetime creating the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings books.

mary rosenblum

An example of a huge story sliced up, smithy? It is definitely that!

drakeluvr

The whole conflict and ending issue is one reason I write fan fiction... it give me practice so that when I get to my own work, I know how to write a good conflict and a good ending

mary rosenblum

That's a good way to do some practice, but be careful drake. It's easy to stay safe in fanfic. Why not create your own characters? :-)

mary rosenblum

If your ending peters out...

mary rosenblum

ask yourself 'what is my conflict'?

mary rosenblum

Does your ending resolve it, one way or another?

mary rosenblum

And if it does and your ending still seems weak...

mary rosenblum

ask yourself what OTHER conflicts exist in your story.

mary rosenblum

Really think about it.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes they are subtle character conflicts and hard to see, but much more important than you might realize.

drakeluvr

Oh, I have... and I'm working on an outline now... just way too many fan fic plot bunnies in my head :-)

mary rosenblum

-) Good for you, though. Copying IS good practice, just don't do it forever.

neo

There seems to be plenty of room for organic growth of characters with a plot outlined first. Do you oppose this practice, and if so, why?

mary rosenblum

That's what I just got done saying, neo. :-)

mary rosenblum

No matter how much you outline, you're going to see your story evolve and grow...certainly novel length works anyway.

mary rosenblum

Or you SHOULD.

mary rosenblum

I outline every long piece I work on...in detail...saves me a lot of rewriting later!

mary rosenblum

I just adjust my working outline as my story grows.

starr r

When you say conflictS, are you talking mostly about novels?

mary rosenblum

Nope. Story contains conflict. Even short shorts, although those conflicts are often implied.

ashton

This kind of presents another question. Say you've got an idea for a book and you've written your outline and synopsed till you're blue in the face and you happen to find someone willing to accept the story, they've read sample chapters, ect...the whole works. Now, what if after all that your story has changed from its original form, as you mentioned above. You've found more plot twists, ect. SHould you go with that or stick to the original version the publisher read about? And or, do you just tell your publisher about the changes and see what they think about it?

mary rosenblum

Well, you and the editor have the same goal, ashton...a powerful story.

mary rosenblum

The editor is going to read the entire ms before he/she makes an offer on it, unless you have a publishing track record in novel.

mary rosenblum

And when you write on proposal...as I often do...changes to the main plot should be run past your editor...

mary rosenblum

because they may have told Marketing what the story is about...

mary rosenblum

for advance publicity purposes. And if they have publically declared that you will be releasing a ghost story...

mary rosenblum

and now it's a romance, this is a problem.

mary rosenblum

But if the main plot arc is pretty unchanged, it's no big deal.

mary rosenblum

You can sell a book on a one page proposal if the editor likes what you write and wants the idea.

mary rosenblum

And leaves a LOT of room for variation, LOL!

starr r

What I mean is, more than one conflict for short stories?

mary rosenblum

If you can do it, starr, it is better to have both a character (internal) and external conflict in any piece of fiction.

mary rosenblum

The story is much stronger that way.

mary rosenblum

It is hard to do in short work, so you'll find more stories that are plot driven or character driven but don't...

mary rosenblum

really make use of both internal/external plot.

mary rosenblum

And often, that is why your end is flat in a short story.

mary rosenblum

You may have resolved your external plot, but it just isn't enough to make the story compelling.

mary rosenblum

Here, it's not really the end that is the problem...it's a lack of conflict.

mary rosenblum

By adding an internal conflict, you may increase the conflict level and suddenly the ending works.

mary rosenblum

Often it is not the ending per se that is at fault.

mary rosenblum

It is a plot problem in the story structure.

mary rosenblum

So when you focus on finding the 'right ending' you end up frustrated...

mary rosenblum

because no ending seems to work.

mary rosenblum

That's because the end is not the problem.

starr r

You're saying the character change PLUS the "quest".

mary rosenblum

Yep.

mary rosenblum

Worth the work, believe me.

whistlin_smithy

It seems like some authors like Ken Follet wrap up all their story's conflicts at the end, while some like Jan Karon wrap up the main conflict but leave some of the more ancillary conflicts unaddressed. Do you think this is wise from a novel standpoint? Would it function better in a series instead?

mary rosenblum

It's a balancing act, smithy.

mary rosenblum

If you are a powerful writer and readers LOVE your work, they may grumble at your loose ends you leave untied...

mary rosenblum

but they'll keep reading you and simply send you complaining fan mail. :-)

mary rosenblum

Yeah, it's probably better to tie up loose ends...but then again...

mary rosenblum

the book with a solid last chapter of nothing but end-tying is pretty awkward.

whistlin_smithy

The late Howard Cosell thrived on grousing fans! And made it to the top :-)

mary rosenblum

Yep, just don't assume that it's a GOOD way to make it to the top.

mary rosenblum

One way to look at ending is this...

mary rosenblum

if you have a strong plot structure in place...

mary rosenblum

your end will pretty much write itself.

mary rosenblum

I think of it as pushing a ball up a hill...

mary rosenblum

when you get to the top, the ball rolls down all by itself.

mary rosenblum

If you build a solid plot with a good dramatic arc, when you get close to your climax...

mary rosenblum

your story will roll along under its own weight.

mary rosenblum

At this point in my career, I recognize that point when it occurs and can relax and enjoy the ride. The real work of the story is over,.

drakeluvr

I noticed in Half Blood Prince by JKR, that she left us hanging on what happens in Harry's Seventh year.... I know that this is good for a series, that way she leaves things to fill in the last book with, but do you think that she touched on...

drakeluvr

everything she needed too in this book?

mary rosenblum

I haven't read it yet, Drake, I'm afraid.

mary rosenblum

But she may well have done that. She's under a lot of pressure to produce here!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about endings tonight. I've published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you

mary rosenblum

An excellent exercise for novice writers is to graph out the dramatic arc of your story.

mary rosenblum

Do it for your POV character and for your external plot

mary rosenblum

Mostly when we start out, we get the idea, come up with the character (in either order) and start writing the story.

mary rosenblum

The plot sort of grows as we go. :-) I did that when I first wrote.

fiction_scribe

can you talk more about graphing the dramatic arc

mary rosenblum

Sure.

mary rosenblum

Sit down with your story.

mary rosenblum

STart with your external plot. That is usually much more obvious, unless you are writing a mainstream piece that is strongly character driven.

mary rosenblum

Ask yourself 'what is the problem'.

mary rosenblum

It may be clear cut...

mary rosenblum

The MC is lost in the Amazon rainforest.

mary rosenblum

Find your climax...this is the point at which your MC can either succeed...find a way out...or fail...maybe die.

mary rosenblum

It is the point at which the end can go either way...

mary rosenblum

Find your resolution...your end. In our example, the MC will either get found or find a way out...or will die, most likely.

mary rosenblum

That is your dramatic arc for the external plot...

mary rosenblum

start with the problem...lost in the rainforest...work your way to climax..a dramatic point where he/she may live or die....and end with your resolution...

mary rosenblum

Let's say our climax is a jaguar in the night, out to eat our MC.

mary rosenblum

He manages to fight it off, scare it off, what have you...and in the morning, discovers he's within a few meters of a road. He is now saved.

mary rosenblum

This is a perfectly good story, but it's an external story only...

mary rosenblum

our character is simply reacting to external pressures...

mary rosenblum

trying to find his way out of the jungle, scaring off that hungry jaguar, and finding that road.

mary rosenblum

Let's add an internal conflict.

mary rosenblum

Maybe our lost person is the 'failed' son of a famous explorer and is bumbling about in his father's old stomping grounds, pretty much making all the beginner mistakes.

mary rosenblum

Maybe that jaguar, in the moment of attack, seems to be his father's ghost...

mary rosenblum

and the son's rage at his father is what drives the cat away.

mary rosenblum

when he finds his way out, he is no longer living in the shadow of his father...that is our internal conflict.

mary rosenblum

His problem...being oppressed by his father's reputation...has been solved.

wolf122

In short stories, is it ok to tie off the ends in the conflicts, but leave a feeling that the story continues beyond this piece?

mary rosenblum

Absolutely!

mary rosenblum

A 'happily every after' ending seems utterly phony to most readers.

mary rosenblum

Let's look at our jaguar example.

mary rosenblum

This guy might be a petty con artist, have money troubles, have all kinds of life issues...

mary rosenblum

and they haven't gone away.

mary rosenblum

But we have dealt with the main issues.

starr r

So, without both kinds of conflict, the story is more likely

starr r

to be rejected?

mary rosenblum

Depends on the story, starr....but if you have ONLY an external plot then it needs to be a VERY strong external plot...not just a good one.

mary rosenblum

And if you have ONLY an internal plot, then those characters had better walk off the page.

mary rosenblum

BUt if you have both external and internal you will be at the top of the slush pile right there, and if they work together...

mary rosenblum

as in our jaguar example, you have a story that is greater than the sum of its plot parts and yes, more likely to be accepted...

mary rosenblum

even if your writing isn't yet as strong as it could be.

mary rosenblum

It is hard to combine internal and external in short fiction.

mary rosenblum

Much easier ...and pretty much necessary...in novel form.

mary rosenblum

If you can master it, you'll sell your stories.

mary rosenblum

Often, the reason that ending reads 'flat' is that you only have one plot and that plot just didn't generate enough conflict to make the end satisfying.

randi-lee

I don't outline well. This is because it many times takes the joy out of writing the story for me and most of the time I end up totally deviating from it. Sometimes the ending is too predictable, Is there a way to make your ending more unpredictable. Would that be by the use of internal conflict.

mary rosenblum

I personally use character conflict to avoid 'predictable' endings, yes.

mary rosenblum

You can have a predictable external ending...escape from the jaguar...but make it unique by couple it with your internal conflict...Dad's ghost.

mary rosenblum

I doubt I could sell an external conflict 'fight off the jaguar' story.

mary rosenblum

We'd know the guy was going to have to face the cat, he's going to win or lose, he wins, ho hum. 'To Build a Fire' did it already and better. :-)

mary rosenblum

But if I make that character real, and he faces his father's ghost in that cat, then it's not a predictable ending and it' snot another version of 'To Build a Fire' and it'll probably sell.

mary rosenblum

And that is also why 'it's been done' is not relevant. :-)

mary rosenblum

It hasn't been done THIS way. :-)

mary rosenblum

[btw...'To Build A Fire' is the Jack London story where the man gets caught in an arctic blizzard and has to build a fire or die. It's a classic.]

mary rosenblum

Literary trivia diversion here:

mary rosenblum

An editor friend told me once that London originally wrote that story with the man actually building the fire and surviving and subbed it to Boy's Life.

mary rosenblum

It was rejected, and he then killed off the man, and it became the classic it is. So don't let anyone tell you downbeat endings are always a bad choice. :-0

mary rosenblum

And it's also a case of ending troubles...

mary rosenblum

his end WAS predictable. This is a very plot driven story.

mary rosenblum

As I recall it's in cinematic third person.

mary rosenblum

And the 'predictable end' didn't work.

starr r

Good to know, because many of mine are downbeat.

mary rosenblum

Well, remember starr, exceptions prove the rule. :-) They ARE hard to sell, because they do not automatically engender sympathy from the reader.

mary rosenblum

You almost have to ram 'em down the readers' throats whether they like 'em or not. :-)

starr r

LOL I can do that.

mary rosenblum

That's a good attitude. :-)

mary rosenblum

But those downbeat ends can be awfully weak, too.

mary rosenblum

If your character spends the story contemplating suicide and then does it...

mary rosenblum

ho hum.

mary rosenblum

Here, a stronger end might be something the causes the suicide not to happen, and not because the character had an unrealistic last minute change of heart.

starr r

How do you feel about the so-called "Twilight Zone" endings?

mary rosenblum

They were fun on twilight zone. They don't work particularly well, I feel, for serious fiction.

mary rosenblum

They're fine for fun little plot driven short shorts.

mary rosenblum

Not every story has to be earth-shaking. LOL

starr r

fun little plot driven short shorts...is what I write. :-)

mary rosenblum

That's fine. There's a growing market for them. :-)

mary rosenblum

And they ARE fun.

mary rosenblum

If your ending feels predictable...ask yourself what will set it on it's ear, so to speak.

mary rosenblum

It might be a character twist...like our jaguar ghost.

mary rosenblum

Or it might be an external twist.

mary rosenblum

Something unexpected happens. (Just make it realistic).

starr r

That's what I like, the tales of the unexpected.

mary rosenblum

Good. Look for the Sf/horror/fantasy ezines. There are quite a few out there.

mary rosenblum

This has been fun Oregon Hour. :-)

mary rosenblum

Do join us Sunday for our casual chat, same place same time.

mary rosenblum

Usually quite a few of us get together to just talk writing. No topic, no 'questions', just chat.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place...Writing Craft: Forum Trancripts.

starr r

Thank you for everything, Mary!

mary rosenblum

Good luck with your short shorts, starr.

fiction_scribe

what time Sunday

mary rosenblum

Same as this Forum, Fiction... 5 pm Pacific, 6 mt, 7 central, 8 east coast...and I give UP on daylight savings for you all who don't do it! LOL

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend, all!

mary rosenblum

See you Sunday.

mary rosenblum

Bye all!

 

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