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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Tuesday Forum
and I hope you all had a good weekend.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me
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mary rosenblum
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I thought I'd talk about
POV...first and third....today because in our last couple of Forums...
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mary rosenblum
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dealing with character
filtering and internal POV, it was clear that ...
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mary rosenblum
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a lot of people are sort of
confused about first person, third person, what they do, how to handle
thought in each POV and so forth.
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, first person POV
is the character telling the story in his or her own voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Third person POV is narrative.
The author is telling the story, using the pronouns he or she (or it) along
with the character's name.
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mary rosenblum
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And there are various types of
third person POV
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mary rosenblum
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that vary enormously in
'narrative distance'.
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mary rosenblum
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When the narrative distance is
zero or near it, the reader is essentially sitting inside the character's
head
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mary rosenblum
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and perceiving the action
through the character's five senses as well as sharing that character's
thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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This time of VERY limited
third person POV with that zero narrative distance essentially mimics first
person
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mary rosenblum
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in intensity but allows the
author to sneak in a few more visual details than first person might allow.
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mary rosenblum
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An increasing narrative
distance creates other types of third person POV
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mary rosenblum
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most often called omniscient
and cinematic.
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mary rosenblum
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As to 'narrative distance' it
means the distance between the reader's perspective on the scene and the
character's.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are looking at the
scene through the character's eyes, the narrative distance is zero. You are
not standing apart from the character.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are essentially sitting
in the audience seats and watching the action take place up on a stage,
that is a greater narrative distance
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mary rosenblum
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and if you are on a hilltop
watching a the battle of Gettysburg unfold in front of you, that is a very
great narrative distance.
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mary rosenblum
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The greater the narrative
distance the less personal engagement or intimacy the reader has with your
characters.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me
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sailor
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Is 1st person ok for creative
nonfiction if you are exaggerating or altering what actually happened?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure, Sailor, and it is really
the only voice that works for personal narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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Although a strong narrative
third person can be almost as good.
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mary rosenblum
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A narrative third person is
where the author is very clearly telling the story, and the narrative
distance is relatively large.
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mary rosenblum
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Third person does suggest
fiction to readers, even in narrative third, so you're usually better off
to use first in personal narrative (creative nonfiction).
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mary rosenblum
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As to that part of your
question about change, sailor...
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mary rosenblum
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editors and readers give a lot
of latitude to that 'creative' part of nonfiction.
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mary rosenblum
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You are not reporting, you are
not writing an informational piece.
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mary rosenblum
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When you read Patrick
McManus's humorous accounts of his hunting and fishing misadventures with
his buddies...
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mary rosenblum
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it's kind of hard to believe
that it happened EXACTLY as he tells it. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But the facts are essesntially
the same.
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sailor
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So I could write a narrative in
first person about something that happened to someone else?
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mary rosenblum
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If you were there, or if you
found a way to make the retelling seem compelling.
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mary rosenblum
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"Let me tell you about
what happened to my buddy Paul-Jean when he was out moosehunting last
fall....
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mary rosenblum
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You're really doing a first
person narrative about Paul-Jean's misadventure, and you really won't use
'I' very much...
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mary rosenblum
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but this is a very blurry
boundary between narrative and first person.
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mary rosenblum
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No, it would NOT be ethical to
put yourself in Paul-Jean's shoes and describe
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mary rosenblum
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the moose hunt as if you had
done it instead of Paul-Jean.
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mary rosenblum
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That is going beyond the
boundary of personal narrative, because the events did not happen to you.
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mary rosenblum
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Of course if you were along,
you may want to embroider and colorize what might have been a simple canoe
tip-over
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mary rosenblum
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to make the story hysterically
funny.
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mary rosenblum
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But you WERE there on the
canoe trip and the moose DID have something to do with tipping over the
canoe.
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mary rosenblum
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Everyone has a personal
preference for either first or third person. The voice simply feels right.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...there ARE reasons to use
one or the other, and it bears some thinking about.
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mary rosenblum
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It is also something to
consider if you have a story that SHOULD be very good, but seems flat. t
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mary rosenblum
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Try rewriting your opening
scene in the other voice.
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mary rosenblum
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You may find that it simply
works a LOT better in the other voice...or it may make no difference and
then you're still stuck with a story that doesn't work. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Each voice does something
better than the other.
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mary rosenblum
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First person is a voice that
allows a lot of internal POV...mainly because it is ALL internal POV except
for dialogue!
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mary rosenblum
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If you find that your
character is spending a lot of time in your third person story, talking to
herself, thinking, or ruminating silently...
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mary rosenblum
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this story might well work
better in first.
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mary rosenblum
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Internal POV can really slow
down a third person story if not used deftly and generally, sparingly.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...third person, even with
a zero narrative distance (the equivalent of first person), allows the
author to sneak in...
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mary rosenblum
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visual details that couldn't
appear in a first person version without breaking your characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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So if your story has cool
visuals, is a rich alien or fantasy world, or otherwise offers the
reader...
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mary rosenblum
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lots of 'eye candy' that your
first person narrator won't notice,
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mary rosenblum
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think about using third person
even if you normally don't.
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lore alley
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Mary, just wondering: CJ
Cherryh's Foreigner series seems to me to work awfully good in limited 3rd
and it's all internal. Would 1st really have been better?
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mary rosenblum
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Hard to say, foreigner. CJ is
a very good writer and pulls off her internal narrative very strongly.
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mary rosenblum
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Internal POV doesn't have to
slow down a story. I use a lot of it all the time. :-) It's just harder to
do well.
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mary rosenblum
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The other issue is length.
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mary rosenblum
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These are novels.
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mary rosenblum
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A first person novel is much
more difficult to pull off than a third person novel....it is extremely
difficult to pull off a change in POV.
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mary rosenblum
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And those books use multiple
POV characters, as I recall.
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mary rosenblum
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Most first person novels use a
single POV character. For good reason.
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sailor
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Stories often seem flatter to me
in 3rd person.
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mary rosenblum
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That may be because first is
your personal preference, sailor.
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mary rosenblum
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First seems flat to me, for
that matter, and I use it sparingly and only when I have good reason.
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mary rosenblum
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Then I have to create a strong
character voice and then I'm fine. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It's a very good idea to learn
to write in both voices. Sometims your story will be MUCH better in one
rather than the other.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me
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mary rosenblum
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One of the difficulties that
novice writers miss when writing in first person (which is the more common
voice for beginners, I've found)...
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mary rosenblum
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is that the writer fails to
really create the character well.
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mary rosenblum
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So the author simply tells the
story in his or her own voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Now this can work if your MC
is a pretty good match for you, personally, in personal history, likes,
dislikes, fears, etc.
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mary rosenblum
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But if you have tried to create
a character who is quite different from you, the author, that voice is
going to sound phony to the reader...
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mary rosenblum
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because it reflects YOU and
not your character.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember, when we meet a
stranger, our first impression is visual (gender, race, age, dressed
nicely, dressed like gang, looks homeless...)
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mary rosenblum
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but from then on, we learn
about that person and form our opinions from what that person says.
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mary rosenblum
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That's how we learn about your
character. So your first person character
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mary rosenblum
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needs to think for
himself/herself rather than be your clone.
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mary rosenblum
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Unless he/she IS your clone.
:-)
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lore alley
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I find I actually feel closer to
characters if a story is written in 3rd rather than 1st. Not sure why,
except that maybe I prefer "looking" at them rather than
"being" them.
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mary rosenblum
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Some of that is the natural
distancing of first person...another reason I'm not really fond of it.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember 'show, don't tell'?
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mary rosenblum
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First person is actually ALL
telling...
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mary rosenblum
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and with every sentence, the
character reminds us that HE is living that adventure, NOT us.
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mary rosenblum
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So it does have more narrative
distance than third, although they're pretty close.
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mary rosenblum
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Or can be at least.
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mary rosenblum
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You CAN make your reader feel
that he/she is at your character's elbow as events happen.
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mary rosenblum
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But we
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mary rosenblum
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are still being 'told' about
them.
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mary rosenblum
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And you actually are never
'being' your first person character, Lore.
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mary rosenblum
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That character is always
separated from you by that 'I'.
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mary rosenblum
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I ate the chocolate cake. The
character is telling you that SHE ate it.
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mary rosenblum
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If you do a very limited zero
narrative distance third, your reader will almost be able to taste that
cake. :-) Your reader CAN become your character.
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lore alley
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When I said I prefer third
person, I meant when reading it. but I prefer writing it as well. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I assumed you meant reading
it, Lore. :-)
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sailor
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3rd person can be a lot of he
did this or he thought that, which distances me. Well done indirect thought
(what you talked about last week) draws me into a character.
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mary rosenblum
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Poorly done third person is
boring.
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mary rosenblum
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Poorly done first person is
boring.
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mary rosenblum
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Poorly done anything is
boring.
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mary rosenblum
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I really am talking about the
ideal here...well done first or third.
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mary rosenblum
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Bad examples of both abound.
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mary rosenblum
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When they're done well,
limited third with a near-zero narrative distance and first person are
nearly equivalent in their power.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of third person is
written with a huge narrative distance and a decent first person will seem
stronger and more intimate...
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mary rosenblum
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which is probably why so many
novice writers use first.
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mary rosenblum
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But it is a bit more limited
than good third person.
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speckledorf
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How much detail can we
"sneak" in before limited third becomes something else?
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mary rosenblum
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Not much.
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mary rosenblum
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I will stick in maybe one
extraneous detail in a scene, but only if it's something I could at least
justify my POV noticing. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I won't have my sports-fanatic
whose only interest in gardening is that his wife makes him mow the lawn on
Saturdays before he can watch the game...
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mary rosenblum
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noticing flowers in a garden
by varietal name! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But I might have him shove
roses aside as he ducks down the overgrown path to the door.
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mary rosenblum
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In first person, he might only
grumble about the old bat and her overgrown yard and good thing he doesn't
have to take care of it, his darn lawn is enough, Milly is never off his
back.
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mary rosenblum
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So the reader at least gets to
see roses. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me
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mary rosenblum
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Let's talk about novel form
for a minute here.
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mary rosenblum
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Here, the matter of length
plays a major role in your choice of POV.
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mary rosenblum
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It is VERY difficult to use
multiple first person POVs in a novel.
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mary rosenblum
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Nothing is impossible, but
realize it'll be hard.
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mary rosenblum
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That means you're mostly
likely stuck with a single POV character.
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mary rosenblum
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Will that work for your novel?
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mary rosenblum
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The other caveat in first
person is voice.
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mary rosenblum
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In a short story, your reader
only has to listen to your character's voice (not YOURS, remember!) for
five or twenty five pages or so.
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mary rosenblum
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In a novel, we're stuck with
that voice for maybe 350 - 400 pages.
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mary rosenblum
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Will we get bored?
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mary rosenblum
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You see first person used in
novel form particularly in the 'hard boiled' detective subgrenre in
mystery.
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mary rosenblum
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Dashiel Hammett's Sam Space,
Philip Marlow. These characters have strong and distinctive voices.
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mary rosenblum
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If your character's voice is
wishy-washy or droning.... don't.
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mary rosenblum
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If your character's voice
sounds like narrative, maybe it needs to be narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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I won't even start page one of
a first person story until I have evolved that character's distinctive
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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I have to be able to hear
it...timber, pitch, rhythm, never mind vocabulary et al...before I try to
write it.
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gskearney
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Sam "Space!!" I didn't
know Hammet wrote SF?
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mary rosenblum
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LOL, it's his new genre...from
the other side of the grave, gary!
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mary rosenblum
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You see a lot of first person
in the literary genre, but they are often narrative and in the author's
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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And there is NOTHING wrong
with that...as long as that is what you intend to be doing.
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mary rosenblum
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The problem arises when you
don't mean to be doing narrative, and it reads like narrative .
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mary rosenblum
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There are also various types
of first person...
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mary rosenblum
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you have a narrative form,
where the first person POV is telling readers about an adventure that
happened in the past.
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mary rosenblum
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Last week, while I was taking
care of my mother's house, I waked about about midnight and hear a noise
downstairs.
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mary rosenblum
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The POV character makes it
clear that the adventure is over from the start.
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mary rosenblum
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It's that 'once upon a time'
voice.
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mary rosenblum
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And that's fine. It can lend a
comforting and relaxed tone to the story.
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mary rosenblum
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Whatever is going to happen,
our POV survived, obviously.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...if suspense is a big
part of your story and you need to have the reader worry about whether
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mary rosenblum
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your POV will survive...this
may not be the right choice for your story.
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mary rosenblum
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The other form of first person
is what I call direct. That's my term for it.
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mary rosenblum
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Immediate might be a better
term.
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mary rosenblum
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In this form, the effect is of
the character talking to herself as events unfold...
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mary rosenblum
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and it leaves readers with the
feeling that anything could happen.
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mary rosenblum
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They could turn the page to
find a blank page with a small note that this is the transcript of a tape
recording found at the edge of the Dark Wood...
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mary rosenblum
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and Ms. Character was never
heard from again.
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bengalrose
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Unless the POV is dead...hehehe
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mary rosenblum
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And you can very occasionally
get away with that, but most editors and readers HATE it, so it's hard to
pull off. :-) But is has been done in ghost stories.
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randi-lee
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is this like as if the person
was writing in a diary?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, exactly.
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mary rosenblum
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Or talking to himself/herself.
That's the form I usually use when I'm doing first.
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lore alley
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Mary could you give an example
of direct first person?
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mary rosenblum
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"I'm washing dishes when
the camera guys show up. First thing I know, it's all lights and I'm
squinting and I know everybody's pissed because it's Friday and dinner rush
and the kitchen's too darn small for us without a bunch of reporters and
camra jocks.
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seigfried007
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what about alien POV--could you
write first from a character that doesn't use the term "I" in
reference to him/herself?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. You see it, Seig. We,
Us, One...
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mary rosenblum
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however your alien race
perceives self.
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seigfried007
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what if it doesn't have that
concept?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, you're in charge, seig.
It's your universe. You'll just have to figure out how to reprensent it in
a way that works on the page. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And if you find a unique way,
it'll help sell your story.
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randi-lee
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this style of first, direct is
the same type that is used in ture confession type stories etc. correct?
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mary rosenblum
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Probably. I haven't read one
lately, but they require first person generally...
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mary rosenblum
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and this type of first
certainly is the most dramatic.
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lore alley
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then direct 1st is all present
tense? couldn't that get kind of tedious to read?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this is in present tense
because I like to use present tense in direct first. :-) Past tense DOES
suggest that it happened in the past, but you can use past.
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mary rosenblum
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I was washing dishes when the
camera guys showed up. First think I new, it was all lights and I was
squinting, and I knew everybody was pissed because it was Friday...
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mary rosenblum
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Well, knew...
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mary rosenblum
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And it only gets boring if you
let it be boring...
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mary rosenblum
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that's where voice and plot
have to work together. And that is why it's HARD to do.
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seigfried007
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That's why i left it to limited
third.
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mary rosenblum
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Proabably a wise choice if
your alien has no sense of self, sieg. :-)
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lore alley
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I'm sure you're present tense
direct 1st is great Mary :-) I've never actually read any.
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mary rosenblum
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You probably have, lore. :-)
It's not that uncommon...but if it worked well, you probably weren't aware
of what the writer was doing.
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mary rosenblum
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That's what really strong
prose does...becomes invisible as the story comes to life.
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gskearney
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Seems to me that you need a
strong charactor and some external puzzle as in mystery ficition to bring
this off well. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, gary. You need a very
strong character voice and enough going on that your POV has something to
talk about.
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mary rosenblum
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Skin Deep, which is in the 04
Year's Best SF collection, is one of my few first person stories and my
example here...
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mary rosenblum
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is the opening scene of the
story, although from memory so it's not exact.
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mary rosenblum
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The only reason I used first
person here is that it is mostly internal POV and not much happens. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Readers would have been bored
to tears if I had used third.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...instead of external plot
events, the story includes a lot of interesting backstory and some
revelations that the POV has to piece together...
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mary rosenblum
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and finally does at the
climax.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't think that story would
have worked in third.
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randi-lee
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Some of the best first person
direct I have ever read were the diaries of Che Guevera
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, that's on my huge stack of
waiting reading, randi. I heard they were very good.
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randi-lee
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as head hoping can be a problem
when using third, would you say it almost or does eliminate it when using
first person?
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mary rosenblum
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It is very very very difficult
to head hop in first person, and I would not do it.
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mary rosenblum
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Unless your first person
voices are DRAMATICALLY different your reader will simply drown in
confusion.
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mary rosenblum
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And it is a bad idea to head
hop in third unless your story is mainly plot driven...
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mary rosenblum
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and the reader doens't have to
care about any particular character.
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mary rosenblum
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Then it doens't matter.
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mary rosenblum
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Now, Walter Jon Williams did a
really interesting version of head hopping in first person...
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mary rosenblum
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He had a main character who
was inhabited by 'daimons' who were like...
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mary rosenblum
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multiple personalities and all
talked at the same time while the character was thinking...
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mary rosenblum
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and he divided each page down
the middle.
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mary rosenblum
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On the left side of the page
was the character's thoughts (I think it was first person, but can't
remember now)
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mary rosenblum
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and on the right side of the
page, each individual 'daimon' had its own font.
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mary rosenblum
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So that you could identify the
'speaker' by the font.
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mary rosenblum
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The effect was of the daimons
chattering away while this guy went about his business.
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mary rosenblum
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It actually worked.
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mary rosenblum
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And no I can't remember the
title, sorry. Came out some years ago.
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randi-lee
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I have a bad problem doing the
head hop in third and I am thinking that if I change to first that could
solve my problem.
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mary rosenblum
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I have a better way to solve
it that will work better for you as a writer, randi.
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mary rosenblum
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Pick a character and stay in
that character's head.
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mary rosenblum
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YOU are writing this. You
don't HAVE to head hop. :-) It's good practice for you.
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lore alley
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oh wow that sounds fascinating!
gonna have to try that! are editors reluctant to publish stuff like that or
do they like it?
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on the editor, lore.
In this case, Walter Jon was already a well established writer with a solid
following when he published this...
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mary rosenblum
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and his editor worked with him
to come up with something that worked for readers.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu could pull something like
this off as a newbie if you found an editor who though it was way cool and
would appeal to readers.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're
talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that
you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next
to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me
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bloodstone
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isn't that the way old detective
novels are written?
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mary rosenblum
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In first person, blood? Yes,
and the current 'hard boiled' subgenre of mystery usually is, too.
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gskearney
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Speaking as an editor, you're
going to have to work hard to convince me because this is going to be a lot
of extra work for me, and cost extra for printing, etc. etc. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, no kidding. That's why the
editor is going to have to be convinced that the 'gee whiz' factor will
increase sales enough...
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mary rosenblum
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to offset the increased cost
of typesetting.
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mary rosenblum
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I suspect, in this case, they
were hoping for a Nebula Award for it.
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mary rosenblum
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Next time your story feels
flat, try switching to the other voice and see how it works. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Just remember that if you use
first, your POV shouldn't sound like you unless he/she is your clone.
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gskearney
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As an exercise you can take
someone you know well and write about a mutual experience from their POV.
Then you can show it to them and see how well you really did. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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Welllll...maybe.
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on what subtexts your
friend is reading into that POV...
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mary rosenblum
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But along those lines...
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mary rosenblum
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try writing about an event
from two different POVs.
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mary rosenblum
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See how different they are.
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mary rosenblum
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They SHOULD be pretty
different. (Been to any family reunions lately? )
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bloodstone
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True. I usually pick a character
to be but I want to explain
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bloodstone
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why others are the way they are
and how it effects story.
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mary rosenblum
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There are ways to let the
characters reveal that to the reader, blood, so that you don't have to
intrude...
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mary rosenblum
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and explain to us by telling.
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gskearney
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Yeah, that's what I was trying
to get at. Learning to get outside your own POV. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah...it's something to
really work at. You will not be other than you without working at it. :-)
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bloodstone
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does it hurt when you have to
into memories?
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mary rosenblum
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YOu mean in first person,
blood?
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bloodstone
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thats something I keep hearing
,don't tell show. How?
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mary rosenblum
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That's kind of a basic
technique, blood, and a forum topic on its own. :-) Go to writing craft on
the website...
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mary rosenblum
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and click on both Plot
Thickens and also Character development.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll find articles there on
how to do 'show, don't tell'.
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speckledorf
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The WJW book is Aristoi:--)
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, thank you speck!
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mary rosenblum
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I saw it in galley form. :-)
Was interesting.
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mary rosenblum
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Thank you all for coming
today!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you have a great week.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcripts of
the Forum in the usual place:
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft: Forum
Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Write well, all! See you on
the website !
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