Forum Transcripts

Event start time:

Tue Aug 16 12:03:50 2005

Event end time:

Tue Aug 16 13:32:34 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Tuesday Forum and I hope you all had a good weekend.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me

mary rosenblum

I thought I'd talk about POV...first and third....today because in our last couple of Forums...

mary rosenblum

dealing with character filtering and internal POV, it was clear that ...

mary rosenblum

a lot of people are sort of confused about first person, third person, what they do, how to handle thought in each POV and so forth.

mary rosenblum

Essentially, first person POV is the character telling the story in his or her own voice.

mary rosenblum

Third person POV is narrative. The author is telling the story, using the pronouns he or she (or it) along with the character's name.

mary rosenblum

And there are various types of third person POV

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that vary enormously in 'narrative distance'.

mary rosenblum

When the narrative distance is zero or near it, the reader is essentially sitting inside the character's head

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and perceiving the action through the character's five senses as well as sharing that character's thoughts.

mary rosenblum

This time of VERY limited third person POV with that zero narrative distance essentially mimics first person

mary rosenblum

in intensity but allows the author to sneak in a few more visual details than first person might allow.

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An increasing narrative distance creates other types of third person POV

mary rosenblum

most often called omniscient and cinematic.

mary rosenblum

As to 'narrative distance' it means the distance between the reader's perspective on the scene and the character's.

mary rosenblum

If you are looking at the scene through the character's eyes, the narrative distance is zero. You are not standing apart from the character.

mary rosenblum

If you are essentially sitting in the audience seats and watching the action take place up on a stage, that is a greater narrative distance

mary rosenblum

and if you are on a hilltop watching a the battle of Gettysburg unfold in front of you, that is a very great narrative distance.

mary rosenblum

The greater the narrative distance the less personal engagement or intimacy the reader has with your characters.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me

sailor

Is 1st person ok for creative nonfiction if you are exaggerating or altering what actually happened?

mary rosenblum

Sure, Sailor, and it is really the only voice that works for personal narrative.

mary rosenblum

Although a strong narrative third person can be almost as good.

mary rosenblum

A narrative third person is where the author is very clearly telling the story, and the narrative distance is relatively large.

mary rosenblum

Third person does suggest fiction to readers, even in narrative third, so you're usually better off to use first in personal narrative (creative nonfiction).

mary rosenblum

As to that part of your question about change, sailor...

mary rosenblum

editors and readers give a lot of latitude to that 'creative' part of nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

You are not reporting, you are not writing an informational piece.

mary rosenblum

When you read Patrick McManus's humorous accounts of his hunting and fishing misadventures with his buddies...

mary rosenblum

it's kind of hard to believe that it happened EXACTLY as he tells it. :-)

mary rosenblum

But the facts are essesntially the same.

sailor

So I could write a narrative in first person about something that happened to someone else?

mary rosenblum

If you were there, or if you found a way to make the retelling seem compelling.

mary rosenblum

"Let me tell you about what happened to my buddy Paul-Jean when he was out moosehunting last fall....

mary rosenblum

You're really doing a first person narrative about Paul-Jean's misadventure, and you really won't use 'I' very much...

mary rosenblum

but this is a very blurry boundary between narrative and first person.

mary rosenblum

No, it would NOT be ethical to put yourself in Paul-Jean's shoes and describe

mary rosenblum

the moose hunt as if you had done it instead of Paul-Jean.

mary rosenblum

That is going beyond the boundary of personal narrative, because the events did not happen to you.

mary rosenblum

Of course if you were along, you may want to embroider and colorize what might have been a simple canoe tip-over

mary rosenblum

to make the story hysterically funny.

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But you WERE there on the canoe trip and the moose DID have something to do with tipping over the canoe.

mary rosenblum

Everyone has a personal preference for either first or third person. The voice simply feels right.

mary rosenblum

BUT...there ARE reasons to use one or the other, and it bears some thinking about.

mary rosenblum

It is also something to consider if you have a story that SHOULD be very good, but seems flat. t

mary rosenblum

Try rewriting your opening scene in the other voice.

mary rosenblum

You may find that it simply works a LOT better in the other voice...or it may make no difference and then you're still stuck with a story that doesn't work. :-)

mary rosenblum

Each voice does something better than the other.

mary rosenblum

First person is a voice that allows a lot of internal POV...mainly because it is ALL internal POV except for dialogue!

mary rosenblum

If you find that your character is spending a lot of time in your third person story, talking to herself, thinking, or ruminating silently...

mary rosenblum

this story might well work better in first.

mary rosenblum

Internal POV can really slow down a third person story if not used deftly and generally, sparingly.

mary rosenblum

BUT...third person, even with a zero narrative distance (the equivalent of first person), allows the author to sneak in...

mary rosenblum

visual details that couldn't appear in a first person version without breaking your characterization.

mary rosenblum

So if your story has cool visuals, is a rich alien or fantasy world, or otherwise offers the reader...

mary rosenblum

lots of 'eye candy' that your first person narrator won't notice,

mary rosenblum

think about using third person even if you normally don't.

lore alley

Mary, just wondering: CJ Cherryh's Foreigner series seems to me to work awfully good in limited 3rd and it's all internal. Would 1st really have been better?

mary rosenblum

Hard to say, foreigner. CJ is a very good writer and pulls off her internal narrative very strongly.

mary rosenblum

Internal POV doesn't have to slow down a story. I use a lot of it all the time. :-) It's just harder to do well.

mary rosenblum

The other issue is length.

mary rosenblum

These are novels.

mary rosenblum

A first person novel is much more difficult to pull off than a third person novel....it is extremely difficult to pull off a change in POV.

mary rosenblum

And those books use multiple POV characters, as I recall.

mary rosenblum

Most first person novels use a single POV character. For good reason.

sailor

Stories often seem flatter to me in 3rd person.

mary rosenblum

That may be because first is your personal preference, sailor.

mary rosenblum

First seems flat to me, for that matter, and I use it sparingly and only when I have good reason.

mary rosenblum

Then I have to create a strong character voice and then I'm fine. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's a very good idea to learn to write in both voices. Sometims your story will be MUCH better in one rather than the other.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me

mary rosenblum

One of the difficulties that novice writers miss when writing in first person (which is the more common voice for beginners, I've found)...

mary rosenblum

is that the writer fails to really create the character well.

mary rosenblum

So the author simply tells the story in his or her own voice.

mary rosenblum

Now this can work if your MC is a pretty good match for you, personally, in personal history, likes, dislikes, fears, etc.

mary rosenblum

But if you have tried to create a character who is quite different from you, the author, that voice is going to sound phony to the reader...

mary rosenblum

because it reflects YOU and not your character.

mary rosenblum

Remember, when we meet a stranger, our first impression is visual (gender, race, age, dressed nicely, dressed like gang, looks homeless...)

mary rosenblum

but from then on, we learn about that person and form our opinions from what that person says.

mary rosenblum

That's how we learn about your character. So your first person character

mary rosenblum

needs to think for himself/herself rather than be your clone.

mary rosenblum

Unless he/she IS your clone. :-)

lore alley

I find I actually feel closer to characters if a story is written in 3rd rather than 1st. Not sure why, except that maybe I prefer "looking" at them rather than "being" them.

mary rosenblum

Some of that is the natural distancing of first person...another reason I'm not really fond of it.

mary rosenblum

Remember 'show, don't tell'?

mary rosenblum

First person is actually ALL telling...

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and with every sentence, the character reminds us that HE is living that adventure, NOT us.

mary rosenblum

So it does have more narrative distance than third, although they're pretty close.

mary rosenblum

Or can be at least.

mary rosenblum

You CAN make your reader feel that he/she is at your character's elbow as events happen.

mary rosenblum

But we

mary rosenblum

are still being 'told' about them.

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And you actually are never 'being' your first person character, Lore.

mary rosenblum

That character is always separated from you by that 'I'.

mary rosenblum

I ate the chocolate cake. The character is telling you that SHE ate it.

mary rosenblum

If you do a very limited zero narrative distance third, your reader will almost be able to taste that cake. :-) Your reader CAN become your character.

lore alley

When I said I prefer third person, I meant when reading it. but I prefer writing it as well. :-)

mary rosenblum

I assumed you meant reading it, Lore. :-)

sailor

3rd person can be a lot of he did this or he thought that, which distances me. Well done indirect thought (what you talked about last week) draws me into a character.

mary rosenblum

Poorly done third person is boring.

mary rosenblum

Poorly done first person is boring.

mary rosenblum

Poorly done anything is boring.

mary rosenblum

I really am talking about the ideal here...well done first or third.

mary rosenblum

Bad examples of both abound.

mary rosenblum

When they're done well, limited third with a near-zero narrative distance and first person are nearly equivalent in their power.

mary rosenblum

A lot of third person is written with a huge narrative distance and a decent first person will seem stronger and more intimate...

mary rosenblum

which is probably why so many novice writers use first.

mary rosenblum

But it is a bit more limited than good third person.

speckledorf

How much detail can we "sneak" in before limited third becomes something else?

mary rosenblum

Not much.

mary rosenblum

I will stick in maybe one extraneous detail in a scene, but only if it's something I could at least justify my POV noticing. :-)

mary rosenblum

I won't have my sports-fanatic whose only interest in gardening is that his wife makes him mow the lawn on Saturdays before he can watch the game...

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noticing flowers in a garden by varietal name! :-)

mary rosenblum

But I might have him shove roses aside as he ducks down the overgrown path to the door.

mary rosenblum

In first person, he might only grumble about the old bat and her overgrown yard and good thing he doesn't have to take care of it, his darn lawn is enough, Milly is never off his back.

mary rosenblum

So the reader at least gets to see roses. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me

mary rosenblum

Let's talk about novel form for a minute here.

mary rosenblum

Here, the matter of length plays a major role in your choice of POV.

mary rosenblum

It is VERY difficult to use multiple first person POVs in a novel.

mary rosenblum

Nothing is impossible, but realize it'll be hard.

mary rosenblum

That means you're mostly likely stuck with a single POV character.

mary rosenblum

Will that work for your novel?

mary rosenblum

The other caveat in first person is voice.

mary rosenblum

In a short story, your reader only has to listen to your character's voice (not YOURS, remember!) for five or twenty five pages or so.

mary rosenblum

In a novel, we're stuck with that voice for maybe 350 - 400 pages.

mary rosenblum

Will we get bored?

mary rosenblum

You see first person used in novel form particularly in the 'hard boiled' detective subgrenre in mystery.

mary rosenblum

Dashiel Hammett's Sam Space, Philip Marlow. These characters have strong and distinctive voices.

mary rosenblum

If your character's voice is wishy-washy or droning.... don't.

mary rosenblum

If your character's voice sounds like narrative, maybe it needs to be narrative.

mary rosenblum

I won't even start page one of a first person story until I have evolved that character's distinctive voice.

mary rosenblum

I have to be able to hear it...timber, pitch, rhythm, never mind vocabulary et al...before I try to write it.

gskearney

Sam "Space!!" I didn't know Hammet wrote SF?

mary rosenblum

LOL, it's his new genre...from the other side of the grave, gary!

mary rosenblum

You see a lot of first person in the literary genre, but they are often narrative and in the author's voice.

mary rosenblum

And there is NOTHING wrong with that...as long as that is what you intend to be doing.

mary rosenblum

The problem arises when you don't mean to be doing narrative, and it reads like narrative .

mary rosenblum

There are also various types of first person...

mary rosenblum

you have a narrative form, where the first person POV is telling readers about an adventure that happened in the past.

mary rosenblum

Last week, while I was taking care of my mother's house, I waked about about midnight and hear a noise downstairs.

mary rosenblum

The POV character makes it clear that the adventure is over from the start.

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It's that 'once upon a time' voice.

mary rosenblum

And that's fine. It can lend a comforting and relaxed tone to the story.

mary rosenblum

Whatever is going to happen, our POV survived, obviously.

mary rosenblum

BUT...if suspense is a big part of your story and you need to have the reader worry about whether

mary rosenblum

your POV will survive...this may not be the right choice for your story.

mary rosenblum

The other form of first person is what I call direct. That's my term for it.

mary rosenblum

Immediate might be a better term.

mary rosenblum

In this form, the effect is of the character talking to herself as events unfold...

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and it leaves readers with the feeling that anything could happen.

mary rosenblum

They could turn the page to find a blank page with a small note that this is the transcript of a tape recording found at the edge of the Dark Wood...

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and Ms. Character was never heard from again.

bengalrose

Unless the POV is dead...hehehe

mary rosenblum

And you can very occasionally get away with that, but most editors and readers HATE it, so it's hard to pull off. :-) But is has been done in ghost stories.

randi-lee

is this like as if the person was writing in a diary?

mary rosenblum

Yes, exactly.

mary rosenblum

Or talking to himself/herself. That's the form I usually use when I'm doing first.

lore alley

Mary could you give an example of direct first person?

mary rosenblum

"I'm washing dishes when the camera guys show up. First thing I know, it's all lights and I'm squinting and I know everybody's pissed because it's Friday and dinner rush and the kitchen's too darn small for us without a bunch of reporters and camra jocks.

seigfried007

what about alien POV--could you write first from a character that doesn't use the term "I" in reference to him/herself?

mary rosenblum

Sure. You see it, Seig. We, Us, One...

mary rosenblum

however your alien race perceives self.

seigfried007

what if it doesn't have that concept?

mary rosenblum

Well, you're in charge, seig. It's your universe. You'll just have to figure out how to reprensent it in a way that works on the page. :-)

mary rosenblum

And if you find a unique way, it'll help sell your story.

randi-lee

this style of first, direct is the same type that is used in ture confession type stories etc. correct?

mary rosenblum

Probably. I haven't read one lately, but they require first person generally...

mary rosenblum

and this type of first certainly is the most dramatic.

lore alley

then direct 1st is all present tense? couldn't that get kind of tedious to read?

mary rosenblum

Well, this is in present tense because I like to use present tense in direct first. :-) Past tense DOES suggest that it happened in the past, but you can use past.

mary rosenblum

I was washing dishes when the camera guys showed up. First think I new, it was all lights and I was squinting, and I knew everybody was pissed because it was Friday...

mary rosenblum

Well, knew...

mary rosenblum

And it only gets boring if you let it be boring...

mary rosenblum

that's where voice and plot have to work together. And that is why it's HARD to do.

seigfried007

That's why i left it to limited third.

mary rosenblum

Proabably a wise choice if your alien has no sense of self, sieg. :-)

lore alley

I'm sure you're present tense direct 1st is great Mary :-) I've never actually read any.

mary rosenblum

You probably have, lore. :-) It's not that uncommon...but if it worked well, you probably weren't aware of what the writer was doing.

mary rosenblum

That's what really strong prose does...becomes invisible as the story comes to life.

gskearney

Seems to me that you need a strong charactor and some external puzzle as in mystery ficition to bring this off well. --gk

mary rosenblum

Yes, gary. You need a very strong character voice and enough going on that your POV has something to talk about.

mary rosenblum

Skin Deep, which is in the 04 Year's Best SF collection, is one of my few first person stories and my example here...

mary rosenblum

is the opening scene of the story, although from memory so it's not exact.

mary rosenblum

The only reason I used first person here is that it is mostly internal POV and not much happens. :-)

mary rosenblum

Readers would have been bored to tears if I had used third.

mary rosenblum

BUT...instead of external plot events, the story includes a lot of interesting backstory and some revelations that the POV has to piece together...

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and finally does at the climax.

mary rosenblum

I don't think that story would have worked in third.

randi-lee

Some of the best first person direct I have ever read were the diaries of Che Guevera

mary rosenblum

Ah, that's on my huge stack of waiting reading, randi. I heard they were very good.

randi-lee

as head hoping can be a problem when using third, would you say it almost or does eliminate it when using first person?

mary rosenblum

It is very very very difficult to head hop in first person, and I would not do it.

mary rosenblum

Unless your first person voices are DRAMATICALLY different your reader will simply drown in confusion.

mary rosenblum

And it is a bad idea to head hop in third unless your story is mainly plot driven...

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and the reader doens't have to care about any particular character.

mary rosenblum

Then it doens't matter.

mary rosenblum

Now, Walter Jon Williams did a really interesting version of head hopping in first person...

mary rosenblum

He had a main character who was inhabited by 'daimons' who were like...

mary rosenblum

multiple personalities and all talked at the same time while the character was thinking...

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and he divided each page down the middle.

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On the left side of the page was the character's thoughts (I think it was first person, but can't remember now)

mary rosenblum

and on the right side of the page, each individual 'daimon' had its own font.

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So that you could identify the 'speaker' by the font.

mary rosenblum

The effect was of the daimons chattering away while this guy went about his business.

mary rosenblum

It actually worked.

mary rosenblum

And no I can't remember the title, sorry. Came out some years ago.

randi-lee

I have a bad problem doing the head hop in third and I am thinking that if I change to first that could solve my problem.

mary rosenblum

I have a better way to solve it that will work better for you as a writer, randi.

mary rosenblum

Pick a character and stay in that character's head.

mary rosenblum

YOU are writing this. You don't HAVE to head hop. :-) It's good practice for you.

lore alley

oh wow that sounds fascinating! gonna have to try that! are editors reluctant to publish stuff like that or do they like it?

mary rosenblum

Depends on the editor, lore. In this case, Walter Jon was already a well established writer with a solid following when he published this...

mary rosenblum

and his editor worked with him to come up with something that worked for readers.

mary rosenblum

YOu could pull something like this off as a newbie if you found an editor who though it was way cool and would appeal to readers.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about first and third person POV. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me

bloodstone

isn't that the way old detective novels are written?

mary rosenblum

In first person, blood? Yes, and the current 'hard boiled' subgenre of mystery usually is, too.

gskearney

Speaking as an editor, you're going to have to work hard to convince me because this is going to be a lot of extra work for me, and cost extra for printing, etc. etc. --gk

mary rosenblum

Oh, no kidding. That's why the editor is going to have to be convinced that the 'gee whiz' factor will increase sales enough...

mary rosenblum

to offset the increased cost of typesetting.

mary rosenblum

I suspect, in this case, they were hoping for a Nebula Award for it.

mary rosenblum

Next time your story feels flat, try switching to the other voice and see how it works. :-)

mary rosenblum

Just remember that if you use first, your POV shouldn't sound like you unless he/she is your clone.

gskearney

As an exercise you can take someone you know well and write about a mutual experience from their POV. Then you can show it to them and see how well you really did. --gk

mary rosenblum

Welllll...maybe.

mary rosenblum

Depends on what subtexts your friend is reading into that POV...

mary rosenblum

But along those lines...

mary rosenblum

try writing about an event from two different POVs.

mary rosenblum

See how different they are.

mary rosenblum

They SHOULD be pretty different. (Been to any family reunions lately? )

bloodstone

True. I usually pick a character to be but I want to explain

bloodstone

why others are the way they are and how it effects story.

mary rosenblum

There are ways to let the characters reveal that to the reader, blood, so that you don't have to intrude...

mary rosenblum

and explain to us by telling.

gskearney

Yeah, that's what I was trying to get at. Learning to get outside your own POV. --gk

mary rosenblum

Yeah...it's something to really work at. You will not be other than you without working at it. :-)

bloodstone

does it hurt when you have to into memories?

mary rosenblum

YOu mean in first person, blood?

bloodstone

thats something I keep hearing ,don't tell show. How?

mary rosenblum

That's kind of a basic technique, blood, and a forum topic on its own. :-) Go to writing craft on the website...

mary rosenblum

and click on both Plot Thickens and also Character development.

mary rosenblum

You'll find articles there on how to do 'show, don't tell'.

speckledorf

The WJW book is Aristoi:--)

mary rosenblum

Yes, thank you speck!

mary rosenblum

I saw it in galley form. :-) Was interesting.

mary rosenblum

Thank you all for coming today!

mary rosenblum

I hope you have a great week.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcripts of the Forum in the usual place:

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Write well, all! See you on the website !

 

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