Forum Transcripts

First Person: Good, Bad, and Frustrating 4/7/06

Event start time:

Fri Apr 07 19:04:50 2006

Event end time:

Fri Apr 07 20:36:32 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday Forum.

mary rosenblum

I hope you've had a great week and are looking forward to the weekend.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're taking about using first person point of view tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

This turned into a busy day.

mary rosenblum

I got my edited pages for Horizons, due out in November, to check for typos...

mary rosenblum

but the first time they sent it to me the PO returned it with 'no such address' on the package. Sigh.

mary rosenblum

So they overnighted it to me, and I had to get it DONE and off to my proof reader TODAY.

mary rosenblum

Whew.

mary rosenblum

But fun to see them. :-)

mary rosenblum

The reason I wanted to talk about first person tonight, is that I've been critiquing ms for a conference writers workshop next weekend...

mary rosenblum

and two of the stories had great structure and a good plot...

mary rosenblum

but the story really suffered because of the first person POV.

mary rosenblum

It's something that a lot of writers use without thinking.

mary rosenblum

Perhaps because grade school teachers tell students it's the 'story telling voice'. Sigh.

mary rosenblum

And it CAN be, but it takes a bit of work.

mary rosenblum

The problem that both these stories suffered from was lack of characterization.

mary rosenblum

The author used 'I' but there was no sense of a person behind that pronoun.

mary rosenblum

It became a monontone drone of description.

lore alley

that strikes me as funny that writers gravitate toward it.... I avoid it at all costs unless the story dictates that I MUST use it

mary rosenblum

I do, too, but teachers do tend to tell kids to use it for fiction, these days.

mary rosenblum

Dunno why.

mary rosenblum

But then, they distribute those awful lists of 'alternatives to said'.

mary rosenblum

So, oh well.

megger

It seems an easy voice for historical fiction though. Especially if you have an interesting character!

mary rosenblum

First person can be a VERY powerful voice.

mary rosenblum

It's very useful.

mary rosenblum

But it's not like falling off a log!

mary rosenblum

It takes work.

mary rosenblum

What happens is that the novice writer simply describes the action through that I pronoun and gives no thought to revealing the character.

mary rosenblum

So the character is the author...or is nobody and you get that monotone drone.

mary rosenblum

Most of the time, novice writers are more conscious of creating character in third person, but it is JUST as important in first person and...

mary rosenblum

takes just as much conscious effort.

mary rosenblum

If the narrator does nothing more than simply describe what is going on without putting any spin on it or adding personal reaction, then you have no character at all.

mary rosenblum

First person offers a marvelous chance to let the character add his or her two cents worth to everything going on.

mary rosenblum

Then Charlie caught the ball -- which is a miracle because Charlie can't catch. And I could just see Bella in the bleachers doing a slow burn.

mary rosenblum

Kiss that hundred goodbye, baby, and you deserve it you conniving witch.

mary rosenblum

Look how much of our POV's feelings and knowlege gets layered in to Charlie's catch?

mary rosenblum

We get a sense of what our POV thinks of Charlie as a ball player, and certainly we know how he feels about Bella.

mary rosenblum

We get a sense of the person behind the I.

mary rosenblum

This is more what I have been seeing:

mary rosenblum

Then Charlie caught the ball. I could see Bella in the bleachers. She didn't look happy.

mary rosenblum

Compare the two.

sailor

In your example, "which is a miracle because Charlie can't catch" sounds like the character addressing the reader. Is that ok or generally not a good idea?

mary rosenblum

Your first person is either addressing the reader, addressing himself/herself, or addressing another character, perhaps through a letter or a reminiscence.

mary rosenblum

You simply decide what works.

mary rosenblum

If you plan on drama and suspense, you're probably better off using present tense and making it sound as if the narrator is mumbling or thinking to himself/herself.

mary rosenblum

If the suspense of 'will that character survive' isn't important, then the first person narrator tell the story in past tense...

mary rosenblum

and that narrator is addressing someone.

mary rosenblum

That can be highly accentuated, as in Kiplings Oh, Best Beloved address.

mary rosenblum

That's in his Just So Stories.

mary rosenblum

Or just past tense and the listener is not identified. Raymond Chandler does that with Phillip Marlow.

mary rosenblum

Watson in the Holmes stories is speaking directly to readers.

mary rosenblum

But in any case...you get a sense of the character.

mary rosenblum

We all know what Dr. Watson is like, right?

mary rosenblum

We learned that from the way he reacts to things Holmes says, his worries, his complaints about things...

mary rosenblum

they all convey a sense of what is important to him and what is not, what he worries about and what surprises him.

mary rosenblum

That is characterization.

mary rosenblum

A stark and objective narrative gives us a computer voice rather than a character.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're taking about using first person point of view tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

The other thing to keep in mind is vocabulary.

mary rosenblum

If you don't keep it in mind, you'll use your vocabulary.

mary rosenblum

But if your character has a different vocabulary...he's a ten year old kid, for example...then this is a problem.

mary rosenblum

If you're going to write in first person, it's a good idea to talk to your character and listen to your character until you can hear...

mary rosenblum

that character's voice every time he/she starts speaking .....and it is not YOUR voice.

mary rosenblum

Remember that when we meet a stranger, we learn a lot about that person from what he/she says and how he/she says it...vocabulary, content, slang, accent.

sailor

I wrote a humorous creative NF essay in first person. At the very end, I addressed the reader. "So if you see someone doing ......, " One critique group I belong to liked the ending. The other said the change of POV was disconcerting. Maybe I just didn't do it well.

mary rosenblum

You probably needed to address the reader before the end, too, sailor.

mary rosenblum

If you're using a distanced and non-personal first person and suddenly become personal it IS a jar.

mary rosenblum

If you're going to addreses the reader it's a good idea to add those asides to the reader here and there from start to finish.

janecj333

I don't like reading stories written in 1st person. It sounds too off the cuff and self-indulgent. Maybe I'm not reading the right stuff.

mary rosenblum

Could just be your personal preference, Jane.

mary rosenblum

Read what works for you.

mary rosenblum

What I see in novice fiction is a lot of first person that really should be third.

mary rosenblum

Good first person just doesn't work as well in third...

mary rosenblum

some stories really need first.

mary rosenblum

That's when I use it. :-) I don't do it unless I have to....but sometimes I have to.

mary rosenblum

And really good first is fun to read.

mary rosenblum

An entertaining raconteur tells you a really cool story.

sailor

A lot of nostalgia pieces are written in first. First works well there.

mary rosenblum

YOu almost have to use first in nostalgia pieces, sailor, although you can do a strongly narrative third.

mary rosenblum

If a nostalgia piece is written too much like fiction, readers tend to distrust it in terms of veracity.

mary rosenblum

Readers are more ready to believe it really happened if you're telling us about it in first person.

robastor

I like having the emotional connection to the story if it's good. For example, "Flowers For Algernon".

mary rosenblum

Now that was a story that I do not think would have had the same power in third.

mary rosenblum

For those of you who don't know it, it's an incredibly powerful SF classic. A mildly retarded janitor undergoes a brain treatment...

mary rosenblum

that elevates his intellect to genius levels.

mary rosenblum

He keeps a journal and we watch his language change as he does...

mary rosenblum

and then the effect reverses...

mary rosenblum

and we watch him return to his original level of intelligence.

mary rosenblum

I do not think it would have had the impact in third person.

mary rosenblum

It is, in fact, my favorite example of 'sometimes you NEED first person'.

mary rosenblum

But first person can get complicated if you are going to use a lot of dialogue.

mary rosenblum

The noir hardboileds like Raymond Chandler's Phillip Marlowe stories do that well.

mary rosenblum

And actually, Raymond Chandler is a very good writer.

mary rosenblum

You handle actual dialogue the same way you handle it in third person.

mary rosenblum

New speaker...new paragraph.

mary rosenblum

Your first person narrator supplies the tags.

mary rosenblum

I walked into the room and found Tony waiting for me. Oh brother. "Well, hello," I said, using my brightest, dumb blonde voice. "How are you today?"

mary rosenblum

"Cut the cute stuff, sister." He looked at me like a dog looks at a steak. "Hand it over."

mary rosenblum

"I don't know what you mean." I batted my eyelashes at him, but it was reflex. This wasn't working.

mary rosenblum

If your story is going to use a lot of dialogue, you might want to try it in third person and see if it doesn't work better that way.

mary rosenblum

A lot of dialogue in first person tends to feel a bit wordy to readers.

mary rosenblum

A little bit is fine.

mary rosenblum

One reason I will switch to first person is if my character is going to do a lot of thinking...

mary rosenblum

the character is in isolation for a large part of the story, or isn't going to have a lot of reason to talk to others.

mary rosenblum

First person generally tends to work better than a lot of internal monologue or thoughts.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're taking about using first person point of view tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

starwalker361

do you need to keep the whole story 1st person?

mary rosenblum

Most of the time it will work better for you, star.

mary rosenblum

You can find stories that switch between a first person narrator and a third person main character...

mary rosenblum

but they are difficult to do well.

mary rosenblum

Remember...while you can DO anything, the question is, is this the strongest way to do the story?

mary rosenblum

If the answer is no, don't do it that way.

sailor

Does first person work equally well if the character is a good guy or a bad guy?

mary rosenblum

oooh, good question, sailor. :-)

mary rosenblum

Actually, it's a very good voice if your MC turns out to be a villain at the end...because your first person character...

mary rosenblum

can lie to the reader.

mary rosenblum

If you are in limited third, the reader feels cheated if you 'hide' that character's thoughts about his or her crime.

mary rosenblum

But the first person POV is telling the story.

mary rosenblum

I read a really nice twist end story where the first person POV is accused of being a serial rapist that had been attacking women in the area...

mary rosenblum

and he is hurt and angry, and by the end of the story, the girl even lets him give her a ride home from the diner...

mary rosenblum

where they and others were stranded. And only then does he admit in an aside to the reader...as the last line...

mary rosenblum

that he really IS the rapist.

mary rosenblum

You couldn't do that effectively in limited third.

mary rosenblum

It worked just fine in first. Was a VERY chilling story.

mary rosenblum

He lied to the readers as well as the stranded motorists all the way through.

janecj333

As far as narrative in 1st person, which is best: where the narrator says 'I watched the sun wheel across the sky. It was a damn sight bluer than I remembered before that slug cut me through the throat.' , or can standard narration suffice as well, 'The sun wheeled across a sky more blue than in any former July.'?

mary rosenblum

The first is first person, jane. The second example seems to be narrative third from the bit you have here.

mary rosenblum

And that is a very good example of what I often see in a novice first person story.

mary rosenblum

The sun wheeled across the sky, more blue than in any former July. I picked myself up and brushed off the dust.

mary rosenblum

This is a very narrative first person without any real sense of the character.

mary rosenblum

Where that first example you have gives us a strong sense of the POV's voice, vocabulary, the way he talk.s

mary rosenblum

It was a damn sight bluer than I remembered before that slug cut me through the throat'.

mary rosenblum

We're already making an assessment of what this person is like.

mary rosenblum

Remember that your POV should not sound like you...unless that person really does speak and think like you.

mary rosenblum

And remember that we reveal out likes and dislikes and prejudices with every word we utter.

janecj333

So, if the 1st person wirter is searching for how to do narration, what is the key?

mary rosenblum

Well, first person IS narration, Jane. All of it. Just don't make it sound like the author is talking!

mary rosenblum

Let the character do the narration. :-)

mary rosenblum

Narration is just 'telling'...that's what it means.

mary rosenblum

The narrator tells the story.

mary rosenblum

In narrative third person it's usually the author telling the story.

mary rosenblum

in first person, the POV tells the story.

mary rosenblum

The POV is the narrator.

mary rosenblum

Just don't make that person's description sound like your description and you're fine.

mary rosenblum

We reached the edge of the forest at noon. The old nag they'd put me on was barely shuffling along by then and I tried not to scowl at the thick rags...

mary rosenblum

of filthy spider web hanging from the rotting branches.

starwalker361

where would you find the lingo for a lowlife vice a teacher

mary rosenblum

versus a teacher you mean?

mary rosenblum

Listen to people talk, star.

mary rosenblum

Go ride the city busses on a weekday...

mary rosenblum

sit in a park in a part of town where some people you'd really rather not invite home hang out...

mary rosenblum

Listen to how people talk whereever you go.

mary rosenblum

Waiting in line at the supermarket? Listen.

mary rosenblum

Waiting for your oil change? Listen.

mary rosenblum

Stuck at the airport. Gold!!! Wander around and listen.

mary rosenblum

Writers are voyeurs and eavesdroppers by profession. :-)

mary rosenblum

One workshop exercise I use is to send participants out into the city streets for two hours...

mary rosenblum

and they have to come back with a realistic character or three...backstory, voice, et al.

lorib

Would this do? I hadn't planned on killing the snot nosed brat but he just could'nt shut up- Even after the duct tape was strapped across his yippitdy face, I just can't stand nonsense noise- hurts the ears ya know

mary rosenblum

That's pretty good, lorib, but would he use that passive voice? maybe Even after I duct taped his yppitdy face...

mary rosenblum

I really do spend a lot of time listening to character conversations...

mary rosenblum

that's something I do in revision, by the way.

mary rosenblum

Not first draft.

mary rosenblum

Then I just get it down however.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're taking about using first person point of view tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight will be in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

megger

I've been allowing my POV to ask questions of the readers. Since it's historical, does that make sense since there is no true modern-day comparison?

mary rosenblum

YOu could do that, megger.

mary rosenblum

I've seen first person pieces where the POV carries on a sort of one sided conversation with the reader.

mary rosenblum

Make sure the voice is consistent all the way through...that those questions don't just sort of drop in unexpectedly.

sailor

I try to be observant of people, but I have to work on subtlety. They seem to sense me in short order and look back at me!

mary rosenblum

Ah, you must not have done enough reading under your desk in school, Sailor. I perfected the 'I'm apparently looking here but really looking there' by about third grade I think.

mary rosenblum

School delinquency has its payoffs after all.

mary rosenblum

Yes, you do need to be subtle..

mary rosenblum

but you can sit there with a newspaper open in your lap and listen.

mary rosenblum

And cellphones have made public space a RICH hunting ground.

mary rosenblum

I LOVE the range of private conversations people happily offer me.

mary rosenblum

The sweethearts! :-)

sailor

You're right Mary. I was the honor student always paying attention.

mary rosenblum

Ah, see, there you go. :-)

geezer

Try being white in So. Cal. I can clear out a park in two minutes!

mary rosenblum

LOL geeze, I bet you won't if you wear the right clothes. Of course you might get rousted by the cops, too.

mary rosenblum

YOu do have some limitations on where you can go safely... but there's plenty of interesting people..

mary rosenblum

the city buses and subways really are fertile ground.

mary rosenblum

People TALK on those things...and usually the more colorful ones.

robastor

Obnoxious people in the supermarket are endless sources of material. They don't care who's looking or listening. :-D

mary rosenblum

Yep.

megger

I'll say! Try the Chicago Els (elevated trains for those who haven't stopped by yet....)

mary rosenblum

No kidding.

lorib

the VA hospital in detroit

mary rosenblum

That has to be a really good one.

mary rosenblum

Or any hospital ER waiting room.

mary rosenblum

It's how I pass my time in airports actually..

mary rosenblum

you have people who have nothing much to do.

mary rosenblum

They're stuck.

mary rosenblum

I got stuck over night coming back from a con this fall...in Minneapolis. I had a wonderful time...

mary rosenblum

listening to conversations, watching the furious passengers and the increasingly less conciliatory gate crew...

mary rosenblum

and then got to talking to them and learned a whole bunch of very interesting information...

mary rosenblum

about working gate.

mary rosenblum

So it wasn't an entirely wasted night.

lorib

I knew a woman who would go the the ariport- just to people watch..it was her hobbie

mary rosenblum

I blush to admit I used to do that from time to time and even had a character in a story who did that. :-)

mary rosenblum

For different reasons.

mary rosenblum

I don't now...the security won't let you into the gate area and that's where you get good conversation.

mary rosenblum

Unless you want to hang in the bar.

mary rosenblum

Mostly people stay on the plane side of security if they're waiting.

mary rosenblum

Outdoor restaurants in summer are one of my favorites.

mary rosenblum

The more you become aware of how you learn about a person from what they say....

mary rosenblum

the better you will write first person.

janecj333

I think it's the constant 'I' voice of 1st person narration that I can't stand, tho. If it's 'I' in dialogue, and 'I' in narration, how can we vary?

mary rosenblum

Most readers won't hear it if you don't overuse it, jane.

mary rosenblum

When it really stands out is when the writer uses sentences that don't vary much in structure or length and we begin to hear the rhythmic I...I...I...

mary rosenblum

but if you vary your sentence length and structure, the I is nearly as invisible as a moderate amount of 'he said'.

mary rosenblum

Both can 'dong' for the reader if overused, both are pretty invisible if used well.

mary rosenblum

I hit the street and cruised on over to Fourth. Bobby Ray was on the corner making love to his sax and sure enough, Brooder had his table under Galluci's green and white awning.

mary rosenblum

He looked up when he saw me, jerked his chins in my direction. "Sit."

mary rosenblum

I sat.

mary rosenblum

That's two 'I's in a singificant chunk of visuals.

mary rosenblum

Where it gets to be a problem is when you get this:

mary rosenblum

I hit the street and cruised on over to Fourth. There I saw Bobby Ray on the corner making love to his sax. I looked over at Galluci's and sure enough, Brooder had his usual table.

mary rosenblum

Now we start to hear 'I' 'I' 'I'

sailor

One member of my critique group insists we should have zero passive sentences. I understand passive is weaker, but I occasionally use a passive sentence to vary sentence structure.

mary rosenblum

Zero anything is not usually a good idea.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes 'was' is simply the best verb for the situation.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes passive voice works.

mary rosenblum

Never and always are good words to leave out of the writing vocabulary, most of the time.

mary rosenblum

The flow and rhythm of your words matter, too, and if a passive voice sentence makes that paragraph sing, where insisting on active voice makes it limp...make it sing.

mary rosenblum

It's when you use passive voice as the 'default' that you run into trouble.

mary rosenblum

Notice that I used 'was' above? :-)

mary rosenblum

I could have used 'stood'...

mary rosenblum

but I wanted the 'making love to his sax' to stand out, so I used the low profile 'was'.

mary rosenblum

So there. :-)

mary rosenblum

It wouldn't have worked as well with 'stood'.

mary rosenblum

I have a reader who will find EVERY passive voice sentence in a ms. She does other very good things so I just ignore that part of it...

mary rosenblum

but she is obsesive over passive voice.

janecj333

ah... "He looked up when he saw me..." focuses attention on the other person in the scene, and nicely lets him carry some of the pronoun weight.

mary rosenblum

Yep. And when I have my POV notice Brooder at his table, again, I don't have to tell the reader that 'I' am seeing him. Obviously I am...

mary rosenblum

so a lot of the 'I' is implied.

mary rosenblum

Think about how you would describe to yourself what you are seeing.

mary rosenblum

Would you say, I see martha sitting on a chair, I see yellow curtains at the window.

mary rosenblum

Or would you say, Martha's sitting at the table and the yellow curtains puff out in the breeze. The window is really dirty. Scooter has been up there trying to get the birds again.

mary rosenblum

Here's an exercise for you. Write a paragraph about a scene...yoru living room, the yard, your office...

mary rosenblum

and you can't use more than 2 'I" at the most, for say, a half page.

mary rosenblum

Bet you can do it with one or none.

janecj333

"Martha slumped in a chair. Greasy yellow curtains hung ragged at the window."

mary rosenblum

There you go...

mary rosenblum

oh...another caveat about passive voice, was, all that...

mary rosenblum

remember..first person is like dialogue.

mary rosenblum

It is a character voice, so it needs to sound like that character's voice...not like an exercise out of a writing book!

mary rosenblum

If your character drawls everything out in passive voice and it works, so be it.

mary rosenblum

Just as characters do not use grammatically perfect English when they talk to each other, first person characters don't either.

mary rosenblum

Worry first and foremost about how your first person character sounds.

mary rosenblum

If she can sound like herself and use active voice great.

janecj333

Actually, "I see Martha sitting at the table..." has a kind of poetic, surreal quality to it. :)

mary rosenblum

Maybe. It just sounds kind of..well...bald to me.

mary rosenblum

Beware of those 'I see, I hear'... handles.

mary rosenblum

They remind your reader 'this person is telling us'..

mary rosenblum

if you leave them off... Martha's sitting at the table with about her tenth cigarette of the morning...

mary rosenblum

it sounds more as if we're sharing the POV's thoughts.

janecj333

hmmm...no hair

mary rosenblum

Yep. :-) No character fuzz.

mary rosenblum

Remember that I see, I hear, I think...remind us I'm telling.

mary rosenblum

Well, this as been a fun Oregon hour.

mary rosenblum

I still have a couple of student ms to do...since I spent the day in panic-mode ms copyediting. (Got to LOVE NY, sigh).

mary rosenblum

Ah, I just heard from Janet Hutchings, at Ellery Queen, that my 'Back Track' mystery story will be out soon...

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend, all!

mary rosenblum

I should be here on Sunday for our casual chat.

speckledorf

By jove...I just got it. That silly exposition no longer laughs at me.

mary rosenblum

Go, speck!!!

mary rosenblum

LOL

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend, all.

mary rosenblum

See you on Sunday!

 

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