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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Friday Forum.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've had a great week
and are looking forward to the weekend.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're taking about using first
person point of view tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight
will be in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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This turned into a busy day.
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mary rosenblum
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I got my edited pages for
Horizons, due out in November, to check for typos...
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mary rosenblum
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but the first time they sent
it to me the PO returned it with 'no such address' on the package. Sigh.
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mary rosenblum
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So they overnighted it to me,
and I had to get it DONE and off to my proof reader TODAY.
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mary rosenblum
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Whew.
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mary rosenblum
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But fun to see them. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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The reason I wanted to talk
about first person tonight, is that I've been critiquing ms for a
conference writers workshop next weekend...
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mary rosenblum
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and two of the stories had
great structure and a good plot...
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mary rosenblum
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but the story really suffered
because of the first person POV.
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mary rosenblum
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It's something that a lot of
writers use without thinking.
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mary rosenblum
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Perhaps because grade school
teachers tell students it's the 'story telling voice'. Sigh.
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mary rosenblum
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And it CAN be, but it takes a
bit of work.
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mary rosenblum
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The problem that both these
stories suffered from was lack of characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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The author used 'I' but there
was no sense of a person behind that pronoun.
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mary rosenblum
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It became a monontone drone of
description.
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lore alley
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that strikes me as funny that
writers gravitate toward it.... I avoid it at all costs unless the story
dictates that I MUST use it
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mary rosenblum
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I do, too, but teachers do
tend to tell kids to use it for fiction, these days.
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mary rosenblum
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Dunno why.
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mary rosenblum
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But then, they distribute
those awful lists of 'alternatives to said'.
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mary rosenblum
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So, oh well.
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megger
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It seems an easy voice for
historical fiction though. Especially if you have an interesting character!
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mary rosenblum
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First person can be a VERY
powerful voice.
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mary rosenblum
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It's very useful.
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mary rosenblum
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But it's not like falling off
a log!
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mary rosenblum
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It takes work.
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mary rosenblum
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What happens is that the
novice writer simply describes the action through that I pronoun and gives
no thought to revealing the character.
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mary rosenblum
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So the character is the
author...or is nobody and you get that monotone drone.
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mary rosenblum
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Most of the time, novice
writers are more conscious of creating character in third person, but it is
JUST as important in first person and...
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mary rosenblum
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takes just as much conscious
effort.
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mary rosenblum
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If the narrator does nothing
more than simply describe what is going on without putting any spin on it
or adding personal reaction, then you have no character at all.
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mary rosenblum
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First person offers a
marvelous chance to let the character add his or her two cents worth to
everything going on.
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mary rosenblum
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Then Charlie caught the ball
-- which is a miracle because Charlie can't catch. And I could just see
Bella in the bleachers doing a slow burn.
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mary rosenblum
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Kiss that hundred goodbye,
baby, and you deserve it you conniving witch.
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mary rosenblum
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Look how much of our POV's
feelings and knowlege gets layered in to Charlie's catch?
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mary rosenblum
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We get a sense of what our POV
thinks of Charlie as a ball player, and certainly we know how he feels
about Bella.
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mary rosenblum
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We get a sense of the person
behind the I.
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mary rosenblum
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This is more what I have been
seeing:
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mary rosenblum
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Then Charlie caught the ball. I
could see Bella in the bleachers. She didn't look happy.
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mary rosenblum
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Compare the two.
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sailor
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In your example, "which is
a miracle because Charlie can't catch" sounds like the character
addressing the reader. Is that ok or generally not a good idea?
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mary rosenblum
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Your first person is either
addressing the reader, addressing himself/herself, or addressing another
character, perhaps through a letter or a reminiscence.
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mary rosenblum
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You simply decide what works.
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mary rosenblum
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If you plan on drama and
suspense, you're probably better off using present tense and making it
sound as if the narrator is mumbling or thinking to himself/herself.
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mary rosenblum
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If the suspense of 'will that
character survive' isn't important, then the first person narrator tell the
story in past tense...
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mary rosenblum
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and that narrator is
addressing someone.
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mary rosenblum
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That can be highly
accentuated, as in Kiplings Oh, Best Beloved address.
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mary rosenblum
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That's in his Just So Stories.
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mary rosenblum
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Or just past tense and the
listener is not identified. Raymond Chandler does that with Phillip Marlow.
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mary rosenblum
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Watson in the Holmes stories
is speaking directly to readers.
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mary rosenblum
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But in any case...you get a
sense of the character.
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mary rosenblum
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We all know what Dr. Watson is
like, right?
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mary rosenblum
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We learned that from the way
he reacts to things Holmes says, his worries, his complaints about
things...
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mary rosenblum
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they all convey a sense of
what is important to him and what is not, what he worries about and what
surprises him.
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mary rosenblum
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That is characterization.
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mary rosenblum
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A stark and objective
narrative gives us a computer voice rather than a character.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're taking about using first
person point of view tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight
will be in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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The other thing to keep in
mind is vocabulary.
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mary rosenblum
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If you don't keep it in mind,
you'll use your vocabulary.
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mary rosenblum
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But if your character has a
different vocabulary...he's a ten year old kid, for example...then this is
a problem.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're going to write in
first person, it's a good idea to talk to your character and listen to your
character until you can hear...
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mary rosenblum
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that character's voice every
time he/she starts speaking .....and it is not YOUR voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that when we meet a
stranger, we learn a lot about that person from what he/she says and how
he/she says it...vocabulary, content, slang, accent.
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sailor
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I wrote a humorous creative NF
essay in first person. At the very end, I addressed the reader. "So if
you see someone doing ......, " One critique group I belong to liked
the ending. The other said the change of POV was disconcerting. Maybe I
just didn't do it well.
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mary rosenblum
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You probably needed to address
the reader before the end, too, sailor.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're using a distanced
and non-personal first person and suddenly become personal it IS a jar.
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mary rosenblum
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If you're going to addreses
the reader it's a good idea to add those asides to the reader here and
there from start to finish.
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janecj333
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I don't like reading stories
written in 1st person. It sounds too off the cuff and self-indulgent. Maybe
I'm not reading the right stuff.
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mary rosenblum
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Could just be your personal
preference, Jane.
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mary rosenblum
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Read what works for you.
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mary rosenblum
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What I see in novice fiction
is a lot of first person that really should be third.
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mary rosenblum
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Good first person just doesn't
work as well in third...
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mary rosenblum
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some stories really need
first.
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mary rosenblum
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That's when I use it. :-) I
don't do it unless I have to....but sometimes I have to.
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mary rosenblum
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And really good first is fun
to read.
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mary rosenblum
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An entertaining raconteur
tells you a really cool story.
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sailor
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A lot of nostalgia pieces are
written in first. First works well there.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu almost have to use first
in nostalgia pieces, sailor, although you can do a strongly narrative
third.
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mary rosenblum
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If a nostalgia piece is
written too much like fiction, readers tend to distrust it in terms of
veracity.
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mary rosenblum
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Readers are more ready to
believe it really happened if you're telling us about it in first person.
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robastor
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I like having the emotional
connection to the story if it's good. For example, "Flowers For
Algernon".
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mary rosenblum
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Now that was a story that I do
not think would have had the same power in third.
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mary rosenblum
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For those of you who don't
know it, it's an incredibly powerful SF classic. A mildly retarded janitor
undergoes a brain treatment...
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mary rosenblum
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that elevates his intellect to
genius levels.
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mary rosenblum
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He keeps a journal and we
watch his language change as he does...
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mary rosenblum
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and then the effect
reverses...
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mary rosenblum
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and we watch him return to his
original level of intelligence.
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mary rosenblum
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I do not think it would have
had the impact in third person.
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mary rosenblum
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It is, in fact, my favorite
example of 'sometimes you NEED first person'.
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mary rosenblum
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But first person can get
complicated if you are going to use a lot of dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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The noir hardboileds like
Raymond Chandler's Phillip Marlowe stories do that well.
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mary rosenblum
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And actually, Raymond Chandler
is a very good writer.
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mary rosenblum
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You handle actual dialogue the
same way you handle it in third person.
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mary rosenblum
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New speaker...new paragraph.
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mary rosenblum
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Your first person narrator
supplies the tags.
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mary rosenblum
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I walked into the room and
found Tony waiting for me. Oh brother. "Well, hello," I said,
using my brightest, dumb blonde voice. "How are you today?"
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mary rosenblum
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"Cut the cute stuff,
sister." He looked at me like a dog looks at a steak. "Hand it
over."
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mary rosenblum
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"I don't know what you
mean." I batted my eyelashes at him, but it was reflex. This wasn't
working.
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mary rosenblum
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If your story is going to use
a lot of dialogue, you might want to try it in third person and see if it
doesn't work better that way.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of dialogue in first
person tends to feel a bit wordy to readers.
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mary rosenblum
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A little bit is fine.
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mary rosenblum
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One reason I will switch to
first person is if my character is going to do a lot of thinking...
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mary rosenblum
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the character is in isolation
for a large part of the story, or isn't going to have a lot of reason to
talk to others.
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mary rosenblum
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First person generally tends
to work better than a lot of internal monologue or thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're taking about using first
person point of view tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight
will be in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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starwalker361
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do you need to keep the whole
story 1st person?
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mary rosenblum
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Most of the time it will work
better for you, star.
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mary rosenblum
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You can find stories that
switch between a first person narrator and a third person main character...
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mary rosenblum
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but they are difficult to do
well.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...while you can DO
anything, the question is, is this the strongest way to do the story?
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mary rosenblum
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If the answer is no, don't do
it that way.
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sailor
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Does first person work equally
well if the character is a good guy or a bad guy?
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mary rosenblum
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oooh, good question, sailor.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, it's a very good
voice if your MC turns out to be a villain at the end...because your first
person character...
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mary rosenblum
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can lie to the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are in limited third,
the reader feels cheated if you 'hide' that character's thoughts about his
or her crime.
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mary rosenblum
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But the first person POV is
telling the story.
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mary rosenblum
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I read a really nice twist end
story where the first person POV is accused of being a serial rapist that
had been attacking women in the area...
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mary rosenblum
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and he is hurt and angry, and
by the end of the story, the girl even lets him give her a ride home from
the diner...
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mary rosenblum
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where they and others were
stranded. And only then does he admit in an aside to the reader...as the
last line...
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mary rosenblum
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that he really IS the rapist.
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mary rosenblum
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You couldn't do that
effectively in limited third.
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mary rosenblum
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It worked just fine in first.
Was a VERY chilling story.
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mary rosenblum
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He lied to the readers as well
as the stranded motorists all the way through.
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janecj333
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As far as narrative in 1st
person, which is best: where the narrator says 'I watched the sun wheel
across the sky. It was a damn sight bluer than I remembered before that
slug cut me through the throat.' , or can standard narration suffice as
well, 'The sun wheeled across a sky more blue than in any former July.'?
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mary rosenblum
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The first is first person,
jane. The second example seems to be narrative third from the bit you have
here.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is a very good
example of what I often see in a novice first person story.
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mary rosenblum
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The sun wheeled across the
sky, more blue than in any former July. I picked myself up and brushed off
the dust.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a very narrative first
person without any real sense of the character.
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mary rosenblum
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Where that first example you
have gives us a strong sense of the POV's voice, vocabulary, the way he
talk.s
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mary rosenblum
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It was a damn sight bluer than
I remembered before that slug cut me through the throat'.
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mary rosenblum
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We're already making an
assessment of what this person is like.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that your POV should
not sound like you...unless that person really does speak and think like
you.
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mary rosenblum
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And remember that we reveal
out likes and dislikes and prejudices with every word we utter.
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janecj333
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So, if the 1st person wirter is
searching for how to do narration, what is the key?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, first person IS
narration, Jane. All of it. Just don't make it sound like the author is
talking!
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mary rosenblum
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Let the character do the narration.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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Narration is just
'telling'...that's what it means.
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mary rosenblum
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The narrator tells the story.
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mary rosenblum
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In narrative third person it's
usually the author telling the story.
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mary rosenblum
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in first person, the POV tells
the story.
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mary rosenblum
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The POV is the narrator.
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mary rosenblum
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Just don't make that person's
description sound like your description and you're fine.
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mary rosenblum
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We reached the edge of the
forest at noon. The old nag they'd put me on was barely shuffling along by
then and I tried not to scowl at the thick rags...
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mary rosenblum
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of filthy spider web hanging
from the rotting branches.
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starwalker361
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where would you find the lingo
for a lowlife vice a teacher
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mary rosenblum
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versus a teacher you mean?
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mary rosenblum
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Listen to people talk, star.
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mary rosenblum
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Go ride the city busses on a
weekday...
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mary rosenblum
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sit in a park in a part of
town where some people you'd really rather not invite home hang out...
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mary rosenblum
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Listen to how people talk
whereever you go.
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mary rosenblum
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Waiting in line at the
supermarket? Listen.
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mary rosenblum
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Waiting for your oil change?
Listen.
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mary rosenblum
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Stuck at the airport. Gold!!!
Wander around and listen.
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mary rosenblum
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Writers are voyeurs and
eavesdroppers by profession. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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One workshop exercise I use is
to send participants out into the city streets for two hours...
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mary rosenblum
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and they have to come back
with a realistic character or three...backstory, voice, et al.
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lorib
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Would this do? I hadn't planned
on killing the snot nosed brat but he just could'nt shut up- Even after the
duct tape was strapped across his yippitdy face, I just can't stand
nonsense noise- hurts the ears ya know
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mary rosenblum
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That's pretty good, lorib, but
would he use that passive voice? maybe Even after I duct taped his yppitdy
face...
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mary rosenblum
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I really do spend a lot of
time listening to character conversations...
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mary rosenblum
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that's something I do in
revision, by the way.
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mary rosenblum
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Not first draft.
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mary rosenblum
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Then I just get it down
however.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're taking about using first
person point of view tonight. I've published seven novels (number eight
will be in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to
answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need
to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the
red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your
regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your
question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..
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megger
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I've been allowing my POV to ask
questions of the readers. Since it's historical, does that make sense since
there is no true modern-day comparison?
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mary rosenblum
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YOu could do that, megger.
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mary rosenblum
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I've seen first person pieces
where the POV carries on a sort of one sided conversation with the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Make sure the voice is
consistent all the way through...that those questions don't just sort of
drop in unexpectedly.
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sailor
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I try to be observant of people,
but I have to work on subtlety. They seem to sense me in short order and
look back at me!
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, you must not have done
enough reading under your desk in school, Sailor. I perfected the 'I'm
apparently looking here but really looking there' by about third grade I
think.
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mary rosenblum
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School delinquency has its
payoffs after all.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, you do need to be
subtle..
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mary rosenblum
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but you can sit there with a
newspaper open in your lap and listen.
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mary rosenblum
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And cellphones have made
public space a RICH hunting ground.
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mary rosenblum
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I LOVE the range of private
conversations people happily offer me.
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mary rosenblum
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The sweethearts! :-)
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sailor
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You're right Mary. I was the
honor student always paying attention.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, see, there you go. :-)
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geezer
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Try being white in So. Cal. I
can clear out a park in two minutes!
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mary rosenblum
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LOL geeze, I bet you won't if
you wear the right clothes. Of course you might get rousted by the cops,
too.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu do have some limitations
on where you can go safely... but there's plenty of interesting people..
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mary rosenblum
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the city buses and subways
really are fertile ground.
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mary rosenblum
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People TALK on those
things...and usually the more colorful ones.
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robastor
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Obnoxious people in the
supermarket are endless sources of material. They don't care who's looking
or listening. :-D
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mary rosenblum
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Yep.
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megger
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I'll say! Try the Chicago Els
(elevated trains for those who haven't stopped by yet....)
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mary rosenblum
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No kidding.
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lorib
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the VA hospital in detroit
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mary rosenblum
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That has to be a really good
one.
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mary rosenblum
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Or any hospital ER waiting
room.
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mary rosenblum
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It's how I pass my time in
airports actually..
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mary rosenblum
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you have people who have
nothing much to do.
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mary rosenblum
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They're stuck.
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mary rosenblum
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I got stuck over night coming
back from a con this fall...in Minneapolis. I had a wonderful time...
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mary rosenblum
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listening to conversations,
watching the furious passengers and the increasingly less conciliatory gate
crew...
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mary rosenblum
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and then got to talking to
them and learned a whole bunch of very interesting information...
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mary rosenblum
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about working gate.
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mary rosenblum
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So it wasn't an entirely
wasted night.
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lorib
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I knew a woman who would go the
the ariport- just to people watch..it was her hobbie
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mary rosenblum
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I blush to admit I used to do
that from time to time and even had a character in a story who did that.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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For different reasons.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't now...the security
won't let you into the gate area and that's where you get good
conversation.
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mary rosenblum
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Unless you want to hang in the
bar.
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mary rosenblum
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Mostly people stay on the
plane side of security if they're waiting.
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mary rosenblum
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Outdoor restaurants in summer
are one of my favorites.
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mary rosenblum
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The more you become aware of
how you learn about a person from what they say....
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mary rosenblum
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the better you will write
first person.
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janecj333
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I think it's the constant 'I'
voice of 1st person narration that I can't stand, tho. If it's 'I' in
dialogue, and 'I' in narration, how can we vary?
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mary rosenblum
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Most readers won't hear it if
you don't overuse it, jane.
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mary rosenblum
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When it really stands out is
when the writer uses sentences that don't vary much in structure or length
and we begin to hear the rhythmic I...I...I...
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mary rosenblum
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but if you vary your sentence
length and structure, the I is nearly as invisible as a moderate amount of
'he said'.
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mary rosenblum
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Both can 'dong' for the reader
if overused, both are pretty invisible if used well.
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mary rosenblum
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I hit the street and cruised
on over to Fourth. Bobby Ray was on the corner making love to his sax and
sure enough, Brooder had his table under Galluci's green and white awning.
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mary rosenblum
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He looked up when he saw me,
jerked his chins in my direction. "Sit."
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mary rosenblum
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I sat.
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mary rosenblum
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That's two 'I's in a
singificant chunk of visuals.
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mary rosenblum
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Where it gets to be a problem
is when you get this:
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mary rosenblum
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I hit the street and cruised
on over to Fourth. There I saw Bobby Ray on the corner making love to his
sax. I looked over at Galluci's and sure enough, Brooder had his usual
table.
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mary rosenblum
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Now we start to hear 'I' 'I'
'I'
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sailor
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One member of my critique group
insists we should have zero passive sentences. I understand passive is
weaker, but I occasionally use a passive sentence to vary sentence
structure.
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mary rosenblum
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Zero anything is not usually a
good idea.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes 'was' is simply the
best verb for the situation.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes passive voice works.
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mary rosenblum
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Never and always are good
words to leave out of the writing vocabulary, most of the time.
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mary rosenblum
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The flow and rhythm of your
words matter, too, and if a passive voice sentence makes that paragraph
sing, where insisting on active voice makes it limp...make it sing.
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mary rosenblum
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It's when you use passive
voice as the 'default' that you run into trouble.
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mary rosenblum
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Notice that I used 'was'
above? :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I could have used 'stood'...
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mary rosenblum
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but I wanted the 'making love
to his sax' to stand out, so I used the low profile 'was'.
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mary rosenblum
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So there. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It wouldn't have worked as
well with 'stood'.
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mary rosenblum
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I have a reader who will find
EVERY passive voice sentence in a ms. She does other very good things so I
just ignore that part of it...
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mary rosenblum
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but she is obsesive over
passive voice.
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janecj333
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ah... "He looked up when he
saw me..." focuses attention on the other person in the scene, and
nicely lets him carry some of the pronoun weight.
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mary rosenblum
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Yep. And when I have my POV
notice Brooder at his table, again, I don't have to tell the reader that
'I' am seeing him. Obviously I am...
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mary rosenblum
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so a lot of the 'I' is
implied.
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mary rosenblum
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Think about how you would
describe to yourself what you are seeing.
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mary rosenblum
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Would you say, I see martha
sitting on a chair, I see yellow curtains at the window.
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mary rosenblum
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Or would you say, Martha's
sitting at the table and the yellow curtains puff out in the breeze. The
window is really dirty. Scooter has been up there trying to get the birds
again.
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mary rosenblum
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Here's an exercise for you.
Write a paragraph about a scene...yoru living room, the yard, your
office...
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mary rosenblum
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and you can't use more than 2
'I" at the most, for say, a half page.
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mary rosenblum
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Bet you can do it with one or
none.
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janecj333
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"Martha slumped in a chair.
Greasy yellow curtains hung ragged at the window."
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mary rosenblum
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There you go...
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mary rosenblum
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oh...another caveat about
passive voice, was, all that...
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mary rosenblum
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remember..first person is like
dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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It is a character voice, so it
needs to sound like that character's voice...not like an exercise out of a
writing book!
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mary rosenblum
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If your character drawls
everything out in passive voice and it works, so be it.
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mary rosenblum
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Just as characters do not use
grammatically perfect English when they talk to each other, first person
characters don't either.
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mary rosenblum
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Worry first and foremost about
how your first person character sounds.
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mary rosenblum
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If she can sound like herself
and use active voice great.
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janecj333
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Actually, "I see Martha
sitting at the table..." has a kind of poetic, surreal quality to it.
:)
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mary rosenblum
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Maybe. It just sounds kind
of..well...bald to me.
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mary rosenblum
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Beware of those 'I see, I
hear'... handles.
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mary rosenblum
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They remind your reader 'this
person is telling us'..
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mary rosenblum
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if you leave them off...
Martha's sitting at the table with about her tenth cigarette of the
morning...
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mary rosenblum
|
it sounds more as if we're
sharing the POV's thoughts.
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janecj333
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hmmm...no hair
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mary rosenblum
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Yep. :-) No character fuzz.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that I see, I hear, I
think...remind us I'm telling.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this as been a fun
Oregon hour.
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mary rosenblum
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I still have a couple of
student ms to do...since I spent the day in panic-mode ms copyediting. (Got
to LOVE NY, sigh).
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, I just heard from Janet
Hutchings, at Ellery Queen, that my 'Back Track' mystery story will be out
soon...
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend, all!
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mary rosenblum
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I should be here on Sunday for
our casual chat.
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speckledorf
|
By jove...I just got it. That
silly exposition no longer laughs at me.
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mary rosenblum
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Go, speck!!!
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mary rosenblum
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LOL
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend, all.
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mary rosenblum
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See you on Sunday!
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