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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've had a great
week!
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're doing a 'hands on'
workshop on narrative distance. I've published seven novels and more than
60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If
you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question'
button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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We talked about Narrative
Distance last week...how close your reader is to actually BEING the main
character...
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mary rosenblum
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but it's something that can be
hard to process.
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geezer
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My goodness. This baby picture
looks like Ian. She turned the pages and the boy grew. Her brow knit. Now
he looks like Sean.
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mary rosenblum
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That's good and a very nice
example of near 'zero' narrative distance.
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mary rosenblum
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I would make two suggestions
here...paraphrase the thought so that it doesn't end up as italic,. Take a
look too...she can't SEE her brow knit...
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mary rosenblum
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that's our perspective. How
would that FEEL to her?
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mary rosenblum
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So you'd end up with something
like this: My goodness. The baby picture looked like Ian. She turned the
pages, watched the boy grow. She peered at the page. Now he looked like
Sean.
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geezer
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so i'm not in third person?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure you are. But if you use
direct thought, a lot of editors will put it into italic. So in my version,
the only direct thought is 'My goodness'.
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mary rosenblum
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The only reason I changed
'brow knit' to she peered at the page...
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mary rosenblum
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is that if I'm staring at an
album, I'll be aware of staring closely at that page,
perhaps...peering...but I'm not likely to think about what my brow looks
like.
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mary rosenblum
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It's VERY nearly exactly what
you did...that was very close to zero narrative distance as it was.
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mary rosenblum
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I just tweaked it a bit. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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zero narrative distance in
effect merges the readers' perceptions with the MC's perceptions.
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mary rosenblum
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And realize this is not always
the BEST way to handle POV. If your story is strongly plot driven...
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mary rosenblum
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you may need to maintain more
narrative distance between characters and readers.
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mary rosenblum
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Fairytales are a great example
of significant narrative distance.
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mary rosenblum
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We are never in Little Red
Riding Hood's head...we are outside, watching the scene from the audience
seats as she meets the wolf and visits Granny.
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mary rosenblum
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That's fine. It works well for
that type of story. (And actually, if you want the zero narrative distance
version, you'll find it in 'Red As Blood' by Tanith Lee, in her retelling
of Little Red Riding Hood. :-))
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barbg
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don't adventure stories also
have some narative distance, like Clive Cussler's books? There's so much
action and dialogue there doesn't seem to be much time for thought
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. Most books have
significant narrative distance. It's hard to achieve little or none. :-)
Not many writers can do it, or even try all that hard.
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mary rosenblum
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And it's a key to breaking
into fiction. If you do it well, your work will stand out in the slush
pile. I know this to be true because it's how I started selling
regularly...
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mary rosenblum
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and editors told me it was why
they bought my stories. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Sweet: Gwen stood at the top
of the staircase, its steps beckoning her like Cinderella at the ball.
Dustrag in hand, she tossed her clogs to the landing and ran her
stocking-clad foot over the plush carpet. The late owner had spared no
expense refurbishing the old plantation home nestled beneath the grand old
oaks. Gwen stooped over and polished the ornate posts and began her
descent.
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mary rosenblum
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Again, this is a very nice bit
of near-zero narrative distance. As with geezer's nice example, I'd tweak a
few things here, but they are tiny tweaks. Essentially, our perspective is
nearly identical to Gwen's.
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mary rosenblum
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As to tweaking, I probably
wouldn't mention her 'stocking-clad' foot because Gwen probably hasn't
thought about those stockings since she put 'em on this morning...
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mary rosenblum
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and why would she pay
attention to 'em now? But that's a tiny nit. You both did a great job here!
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mary rosenblum
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Here's another chunk.
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mary rosenblum
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"I'm workin' on it."
Raking her auburn hair over her forehead, Gwen sighed as she dawdled down
the stairs. Mr. Reuben had died last month and the grand house was sold at
an estate auction. The new owner had sent word to the cleaning crew to have
everything spotless and in order when he arrived. Would the new owner need
her services? Mr. Reuben had been partially blind, he hadn't noticed. But
the new owner would see. Finishing the last post, Gwen shoved her feet into
her well worn clogs and headed to the maid service area.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a nice example of
'sneaking' the author into a very nice limited third. In reality, Gwen
probably won't think once today about her hair color unless she
contemplates hair dye in the store! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...because this is such a
nice, tight, close POV, the author can slip in that 'auburn' as she brushes
the hair back from her face if we MUST see it.
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mary rosenblum
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I might leave out the 'well
worn'. Like 'auburn', it's a detail Gwen probably wouldn't notice, and I
probably wouldn't put two 'author' details into a scene so close together.
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mary rosenblum
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If I wanted the reader to see
worn clogs, I might have her pick one up and make a face at the edge of the
leather coming loose. Maybe next payday she'd stop in at Volume Shoe and
buy a new pair. Gwen sighed and slipped her foot into it.
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially narrative distance
is the same thing as POV...whether you are using 'deep' POV (inside the
character's head) or a more distanced version, such as omniscient.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're doing a 'hands on'
workshop on narrative distance. I've published seven novels and more than
60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If
you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question'
button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Bud: Jim finished his first
course then pushed his chair back and stood. "Please excuse me for a
couple of minutes-nature is calling."
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mary rosenblum
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"Take your time. I'll be
right here when you get back." Mr Kenton got up and headed back to the
buffet.
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mary rosenblum
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Jim noticed a pay phone beside
the restroom door and called home again, but still no answer. He scratched
his head and wondered where Erin could be. She hadn't said anything about
going out today. The elevator door slid open behind him as he started to enter
the restroom. Glancing back he saw a short blond girl in a plaid skirt
enter the elevator with a dark haired man. The girl slipped her arms around
the man's neck, which caused her skirt to pull up revealing a pair of black
bikini panties. Feeling embarrassed, he turned away then a familiar scent
caught his attention- Poison...Erin's favorite perfume. He looked back
again, but the elevator door had closed.
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mary rosenblum
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You all are coming up with
GREAT examples, she grumbles...nothing but nits to pick here tonight! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is still minimal
narrative distance but it does step us back a bit...
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mary rosenblum
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We are seeing a bit more from
outside the MC's perspective here.
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mary rosenblum
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I would probably turn that
',but still no answer' into 'Still no answer' a sentence fragment meant to
represent Jim's actual thought.
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mary rosenblum
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And then I'd have him wonder
about Erin. Like this: Still no answer. Jim scratched his head. Where the
heck was she?
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mary rosenblum
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The effect is that we
'overhear' Jim wondering about Erin's non-answering.
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mary rosenblum
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HIs glance back at the
elevator is nicely close, we're seeing the scene from his perspective so
the narrative distance is down at zero.
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mary rosenblum
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I'd probably drop the
'feeling'. What else could he be doing? Tasting it? If he is, I'll say so,
but 'feeling' is implied.
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mary rosenblum
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Embarassed, he turned away,
when a familiar scent caught his attention. Poison. Erin's favorite
perfume.
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mary rosenblum
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This is very nice, very close
to zero, narrative distance. Good going.
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mary rosenblum
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Jason sent an example that he
says has been driving him nuts. :-) And it DOES make a better example than
you folks who only gave me tweaks to do! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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Together, with Flint still
tucked safely in his shirt pocket, they remained still, allowing the
minutes to pass. Gladius felt relief in his lower back the instant he was
off his feet, but a dull painful throbbing pulsed down his legs into his
feet. His eyes hurt, like they were being stretched back into his skull.
Lying on his stomach, propped up on elbows, he felt the warm sand against
his tired and aching body. He looked down at Flint, who seemed nervous,
watching for anything that might be watching them, and thought, I should
ask him 'what next', but lying here feels too good
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mary rosenblum
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Jason told me that he wants
the reader to be in Gladius's shoes. (And Flint is some sort of tiny imp)
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mary rosenblum
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We do have a fair degree of
narrative distance here.
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mary rosenblum
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The effect is of watching this
on a movie screen, even though we know what Gladius is feeling.
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mary rosenblum
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Why do I say this?
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mary rosenblum
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If this was you, lying down
after an all day hike, would you think about what you were doing in this
manner?
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mary rosenblum
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Or is this the author
describing it?
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mary rosenblum
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I'm not sure exactly what
happened just before this scene begins, but we'll assume Gladius and Flint
were hiding from some kind of danger.
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mary rosenblum
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Gladius crouched, still as a
stone, while the minutes crawled past. Flint, thank the gods, stayed still
for once. Finally, finally, he dared to get to his feet. His back pierced
him and dull pain pulsed down his legs and into his feet. Gladius bit back
a groan.
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mary rosenblum
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His eyes ached as he lowered
himself to the sun-warmed sand and stretched out on his stomach. It helped.
Flint? He raised his head with an effort...
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mary rosenblum
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spied the imp perched on a
broken branch, sniffing the air nervously. I should ask him 'what next',
Gladius thought groggily. But this feels too good.
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mary rosenblum
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If you notice what I did differently
here...I filtered the scene through Gladius.
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mary rosenblum
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I have asked myself...'how
would Gladius think of this...'
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mary rosenblum
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He is aware of crouching. Time
crawling past. Maybe holding his breath.
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mary rosenblum
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When he gets up, pain shoots
through his back and down his legs.
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mary rosenblum
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If you notice, I've used only
the minimum and spare words to convey the sense of that pain...
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mary rosenblum
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because the character's
perception of it will be pretty nonverbal (sort of OUCH), so complex
language puts us outside the character again and increases the narrative
distance.
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mary rosenblum
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If the character is not
thinking in complex language, use very spare, simple, effective prose.
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mary rosenblum
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if the character is say,
consciously admiring a nice looking horse at the market, you'll use the
more eloquent language that prospective buyer might be thinking.
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mary rosenblum
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Nice mare, with a mane like
spun gold and three white socks. She looked like a goer with plenty of
muscle and an arch to her neck that could make a monk cry.
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mary rosenblum
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Back to Glaudius, I changed
the scene to include a strong backbone of action. Glaudius crouches, he
stands and feels pain, he lies down and gets some relief, he looks for
Flint, he thinks.
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mary rosenblum
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By using action as the
backbone for every bit of description, the effect is to keep the reader
within Gladius and thus keep the narrative distance to near zero.
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geezer
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Mrs. Silverheels placed her
elbows on the table and cupped her chin. She glanced at the doorway and
whispered. "Well, you know what I think? This is the dumping place for
Carlton's illegitamate children. Hides them from Adriana." Her gray
head nodded.
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mary rosenblum
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This is nice and clear. Good
bit of show, don't tell. Two small things will push the reader back and
increase the narrative distanc here, geeze. Mrs. Silverheels is formal...
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mary rosenblum
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I think of myself as Mary, not
Ms. Rosenblum...so that will make us feel that we are not really inside her
character...and when was the last time you thought of your hair color as
you nod?
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mary rosenblum
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Again, it may well be totally appropriate
to write this in this fashion...it is very well written...
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mary rosenblum
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I'm just identifying the
degree of distance, NOT whether it is the best way to write THIS
scene...for that I would need the context.
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mary rosenblum
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out of context, I'd say she is
a secondary character, not the POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Just changing those two small
points will draw us closer:
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mary rosenblum
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Amelie leaned her elbows on
the table and cupped her chin. She glanced at the doorway. "Well, you
know what I think? This is the dumping place for Carlton's illegitimate
children. Hides them from Adriana." She nodded.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, okay, I dropped the 'she
whispered' too.
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mary rosenblum
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Other than those two tiny
fixes and the dropped dialogue tag which we didn't need, these are the same
words, and if you notice, the effect is quite different.
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geezer
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she is gossiping with the MC
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mary rosenblum
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Well, there you are. I just
turned her from a secondary character to a POV just like that. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You will always have
significant narrative distance from any character who is not the POV.
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mary rosenblum
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It can be pretty minimal, but
you're really only going to achieve zero narrative distance in a POV...
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mary rosenblum
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because you ARE outside non
POV characters.
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mary rosenblum
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But thanks for giving me that
example, geezer, because by changing her to the POV, I brought the distance
down to zero and it made the best example yet!
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mary rosenblum
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Nice!
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mary rosenblum
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Let me give you an example of
progressively narrowing narrative distance.
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mary rosenblum
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The young soldier strode
across the compound, his back straight as a pole. His spear glinted in the
sun, and mail vest sparkled
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mary rosenblum
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This is a LOT of narrative
distance.
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mary rosenblum
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Young Gliand strode across the
compound, proud of his new spear and mail vest. He winked at Raul as he
passed.
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mary rosenblum
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Closer distance...we know him,
we know a bit more about him, but we're still out there in that compound
watching him from some distance at least.
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mary rosenblum
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Gliand marched across the
training ground, afraid that the dust would dull the new mail. Raul was
watching him. He straightened his back and managed to catch his eye. Just
you wait, brother!
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mary rosenblum
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Now we're down to zero...in
Gliand's head. Notice I did not call him 'young' here. Why would he think
about his relative age right now?
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mary rosenblum
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As we reduce the narrative
distance, general details (soldier, young) disappear and more specific details
increase.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're doing a 'hands on'
workshop on narrative distance. I've published seven novels and more than
60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If
you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question'
button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you
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mary rosenblum
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Feel free to post a chunk of
narrative here...first or third person...and I'll happily use it as an
example!
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roe
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His hushed tone made Marth's
skin crawl. Why couldn't he talk normal like everyone else? She shuddered
and brough her shawl closer around her shoulders.
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mary rosenblum
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That's quite nice. I'd probabl
use a more specific verb than 'brought'...pulled, clutched, something that
suggests tension.
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mary rosenblum
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But we're firmly inside that
character's head right here. We share her reaction this his hushed tone.
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mary rosenblum
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Here is a much more distanced
version:
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mary rosenblum
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His dark and threatening tone
frightened Marth. She often wondered why he couldn't talk normally, like
everyone else did. She pulled her shawl closer around her shoulders as if
chilled.
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mary rosenblum
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If you compare the two, you'll
see that the effect in roe's version is that we are sharing Marth's
thoughts...she has turned us into a bunch of telempaths (which is what zero
narrative distanace does).
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mary rosenblum
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What I did was step the reader
back once more to the edge of the stage and back into the seats... now we
sit back and the author tells us about his tone and its effect on Marth. We
do get to see her pull her shawl closer.
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sweett
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Judith sighed, watched Ms. Busby
and her ducklings toddle off, and then walked up South Street the few
blocks to All=s Well Café, her thoughts swirling. How did Momma do it all?
Paying the bills, getting Tabby ready for school, going to work. How she
wished Momma were there. Shaking the memory of the ambulance sirens from
her head, Judith stood outside the café door, staring blankly as it opened
before her.
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mary rosenblum
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Nice. I'd probably thow in a
'as she' instead of a comma, but as with Roe's example, you have done a nice
job of sitting us down inside Judith's head here.
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roe
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She crawled out of bed, careful
not to wake Brian, and went to take a shower. How she would get through
this next week was beyond her, let alone a whole year.
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mary rosenblum
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This is okay, but you're
missing a bet here! Clearly this scene is going...
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mary rosenblum
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to include some internal
narrative about what is going on.
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mary rosenblum
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So don't waste that shower.
Break it down into precise actions and thread that personal narrative on
that backbone of action...
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mary rosenblum
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the same way I did with
Glaudius's example.
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mary rosenblum
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She went into the bathroom,
closed the door, and turned on the shower. How was she going to get through
this next week? she asked herself as steam billowed up. Let alone a whole
year! She stepped under the hot, stinging spray, wishing....
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mary rosenblum
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and as she does the various
steps of showering, you can keep giving us throughts interspersed by
action...
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mary rosenblum
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that will keep the scene
moving.
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mary rosenblum
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I see that format a lot in
novice stories...a general statement about an action sequence (she cooked
dinner) and then an entire page of internal monologue!
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mary rosenblum
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You could thread all that
internal mono or thought on the small actions involved in 'she cooked
dinner'.
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fun25
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We lived in a large, old house –
my father, his three elder brothers, all wives and kids – a big joint
family where men went to their work – the obscure world of dignity – and
women managed household stuff and kids. Life was eventful with tons of
people always around. We had shades of our personal grieves and joys, but
we also had shoulders to share our deep sorrows and responsibilities.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a good example of
large narrative distance. Our narrator, either the author or a first person
POV, is summarizing a large expanse of time and many events. You see this
type of narrative summary in some types of work, generally mean to do just
that...
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mary rosenblum
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summarize the universe before
the main story begins.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not the best start for a
fiction story, but it CAN work if you move quickly into the main events and
really engage the reader with them quickly.
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mary rosenblum
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But especially in something
like a family memoir..
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mary rosenblum
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either real or
fictional...this type of pulling back to create a large amount of narrative
distance...
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mary rosenblum
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allows you to skim through
events that would take you chapters and chapters to cover up close.
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arfelin
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Two months earlier, Jim dropped
the cryogenic bomb, flash freezing her cozy world. A place where Spanish
moss hung off trees instead of ice.
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mary rosenblum
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Again, this is another example
of a very large narrative distance and you are summarizing something that
involved time and events.
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mary rosenblum
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It's the type of brief summary
that, as with our previous example, disposes of a lot time and events
without spending thousands of words to do so.
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mary rosenblum
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And again...zero narrative
distance is not always RIGHT and large narrative distance is not always
WRONG.
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mary rosenblum
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Each of them is right in the
proper circumstance. If your story is about what happens NOW, two months
after Jim dropped that bomb (great hint, that)...
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mary rosenblum
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then spending fifteen pages
dealing with those events through a minimum narrative distance would not be
right if those events weren't critical to THIS story.
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mary rosenblum
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You will probably vary your
narrative distance within even a short story and certainly within a novel.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes you WILL pull back
and summarize events, using a large narrative distance.
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mary rosenblum
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Jasmine spent the day doing
normal, trivial things -- washing clothes, cleaning crumbs from the silverware
drawer, dusting all the bric-a-brac in the living room. It wasn't until the
moon rose that she felt she was finally waking up.
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mary rosenblum
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That's very distanced. We are
standing back and watching her do all this and we're not really seeing any
details.
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mary rosenblum
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She resisted for nearly an
hour, but finally, step by agonizing step, those invisible claws dragged
her to the back door. Trembling, she watched her hand stretch slowly out,
white and strange...
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mary rosenblum
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as if it belonged to a
stranger. It turned the knob and the storm door opened, letting in a flood
of moonlight.
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mary rosenblum
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It smelled like silver and
blood and she gasped, feeling it move in her lungs, that light, like blood.
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mary rosenblum
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This is near zero distance. We
are sharing her awareness as she is dragged to that door to breathe the
moonlight.
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mary rosenblum
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Think of it as using a
microscope...twirl the dial and you see tiny motes dancing in a drop of
water...twirl it the other way and you're looking at cilia, cells full of
chlorophyl, cell nuclei.
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mary rosenblum
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You all have been coming up
with great examples tonight.
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mary rosenblum
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And remember...your ability to
consciously control that narrative distance...
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mary rosenblum
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to bring it to zero when you
want readers to share your POV character's awareness and then pull back out
in order to skim over unnecessary action, will REALLY make your piece stand
out in the slush.
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mary rosenblum
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Very few writers do near-zero
narrative distance well.
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mary rosenblum
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We tend to use that 'fairy
tale' narrative voice when we start writing.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this was a fun 'Oregon
Hour'.
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geezer
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Thanks, Mary. I is much clearer.
Now if I could just get my mind around 'author's voice'....
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mary rosenblum
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Do you mean 'author's voice'
as in the author narrating the story? Or you do mean 'voice' as in personal
style?
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speckledorf
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Very nice forum! You gonna write
that suspense story?
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mary rosenblum
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Which one is that? My werewolf
story? :-)
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geezer
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I think they mean style
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mary rosenblum
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Voice is another of those
'fuzzy' words that have multiple definintions, geeze.
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sweett
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I need author's voice as in
personal style
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mary rosenblum
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That will just happen. You
won't be aware of it...others will describe it to you. LOL
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gwanny
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Thanks Mary, guess you did'nt
get mine,,,or it was so bad...
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mary rosenblum
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Oh Gwanny, I did. I'm sorry!
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mary rosenblum
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I have 'em pasted here on the
page and I didn't scroll down far enough.
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mary rosenblum
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Carrie never intended that her
dear old friend Nannie Ray be hurt this way. How dare Vickie repeat what
Carrie had said about Nannie Ray's boy Robert! It wasn't that Carrie had
said anything untrue about Robert, but his Momma had not even put him in
the ground yet! The last thing Carrie had wanted was to cause that sweet
old woman more pain. Damn that Vickie! " I will call Vickie first,
then I'll go see Nannie Ray" Carrie said aloud to no one, save
herself. Carrie knew that she would be putting an end to a 25 year
friendship by making the call, but right now, she was more concerned about
Nannie Ray .
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mary rosenblum
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This is good internal
narrative Gwanny. I would let Carrie be doing something...cooking dinner,
taking that shower...
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mary rosenblum
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doing something, and use the
actions as backbone to string this long narrative onto. The actions will
keep the scene moving forward while Carrie steams about Nannie Ray's
wounding.
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pjwriter2
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A blinding light appeared in the
sky. An earshattering crash of a silvery object hit about 500 feet from the
porch. I ran to get a closer look but when I got there I froze. A little
creature with long platinum hair and glowing emeral green eyes was staring
at me from the space ship that was dangling from the tree.
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mary rosenblum
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Last one!!!
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mary rosenblum
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This is just fine, PJ...the
light and crash are filtered through your POV's awareness... This is nice
example of first person and the events are described by the POV as if they
are happening right now.
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brpeterson
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I missed it :( are you going to
do this again?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh yes, br. I do these
workshops regularly. :-) Don't worry.
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mary rosenblum
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And of course, the transcripts
will be available shortly in Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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You all sent me great
examples!
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for making it easy.
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us Sunday for our
casual chat.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a lot of fun. We talk
about whatever, fix stuck stories, and so forth.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm off to work on the wizard
YA story I promised for an anthology.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm doing something new this
time...plotting as I go.
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mary rosenblum
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Dunno why. Just felt like it.
:-)
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brpeterson
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what btime on sun??
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mary rosenblum
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5 PM pacific, 6 Mt. 7 Central,
and 8 PM east coast.
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mary rosenblum
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See you all there!
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend!
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arfelin
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Have a great Mother's Day!
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mary rosenblum
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Wow, that's right! almost
forgot. You, too, all you moms out there!
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