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mary rosenblum
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Good morning all.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you had a fine weekend
and are enjoying this Thanksgiving week. (well Thanksgiving for those of us
down here in the states).
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about narrative today. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about
narrative today because it is probably the most confusing...
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mary rosenblum
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aspect of craft for beginning
writers.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes you get told it's
not good...
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes you get told it IS
good.
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mary rosenblum
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And both are true!
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mary rosenblum
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Narrtive is a term that gets
tossed around a lot and has many actual meanings...
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mary rosenblum
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and that can really confuse
people when you're just starting out.
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mary rosenblum
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So let's start from the
beginning.
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mary rosenblum
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What is narrative?
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, it is everything
that is not dialogue. That is the broadest definition.
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andi
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isn't that people talking
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mary rosenblum
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Yes and no, Andi.
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mary rosenblum
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Dialogue is actually someone
speaking.
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mary rosenblum
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Narrative is someone telling
us something.
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mary rosenblum
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That someone may be a
character in a first person POV story...
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mary rosenblum
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or it may be the author in a
third person POV story.
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lapart
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if you start narrative should u
end the novel with narrative
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mary rosenblum
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Here again, we're using
'narrative' very generally and the problem is that we need to be very
specific...
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mary rosenblum
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about what we mean by
'narrative'.
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mary rosenblum
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If you begin the novel in
narrative voice...either a first person POV character is telling the
story...
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mary rosenblum
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or the author is telling the
story (think memoir)...
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mary rosenblum
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Then it is certainly a LOT
easier to stick to that voice all the way through the novel.
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mary rosenblum
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AS a first time novelist, I'd
suggest that you do that.
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fiction_scribe
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- is narrative when the reader
is being "talked to" and dialoge when the characters are talking
to each other?
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, fiction.
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mary rosenblum
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And there are many ways to
work with narrative to make the readers forget that the author is talking
to them
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mary rosenblum
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That is what 'show, don't
tell' is all about.
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mary rosenblum
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We use narrative, but we make
the readers feel as if they are seeing action for themselves rather than
listening to us tell them about it.
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mary rosenblum
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That's why you may find a
'this is too narrative' written on a story you have turned in for a
critique.
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mary rosenblum
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What the critiquer is saying
is that the story feels too 'told'.
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mary rosenblum
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But fundamentally, even
powerful prose that makes the readers think they are seeing the action is
STILL narrative. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Because of course the author IS
telling the story.
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ling630
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Isn't that where
characterization comes into play? We are showing all characters?
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mary rosenblum
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Charcterization and narrative
distance, ling...where you place your reader in relation to the scene...
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mary rosenblum
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It's a matter of HOW you write
narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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Narrative is neither good nor
bad in and of itself...it can be done poorly or well for THIS story.
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mary rosenblum
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Patrick McManun, Bailey White,
and Alice Walker all write narrative books.
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mary rosenblum
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They are very popular and
strong writers.
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ling630
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So in other words it is what you
are trying to convey then. Is the story teller important or the actual characters?
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mary rosenblum
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That's a pretty good way of
putting it, ling.
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mary rosenblum
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There are many ways to tell a
story.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes the author tells it
and we enjoy it the way we'd enjoy listening to a storyteller or to a
bedtime story.
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mary rosenblum
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Other times, we immerse our
readers in the story so that they merge with the characters...
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mary rosenblum
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and live the story with them.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes we let the character
tell the story to us. (first person POV)
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mary rosenblum
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These are all valid ways to
tell a story.
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mary rosenblum
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Where writers run into trouble
is when they have one intent, but fail to make the narrative do that job.
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mary rosenblum
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The most common example is
when the writer intends to immerse the character in the action but tells
the readers about it in his/her own voice.
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mary rosenblum
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So the reader never is
actually drawn into that action. They just listen.
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andi
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a crazy question what does
charactierization and narrative distince mean
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mary rosenblum
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Characterization is the
portrayal of your story's character as a three dimensional real person
andi...
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mary rosenblum
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that means someone whom we
believe deep down inside is real.
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mary rosenblum
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And narrative distance is the
location of the reader in relation to the scene.
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mary rosenblum
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Zero narrative distance is
when the reader sees through the POV character's eyes and perceives the
scene through that character's senses.
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mary rosenblum
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The larger the narrative
distance, the farther back from that we move.
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mary rosenblum
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There's an article on
Narrative Distance on the LR Website: Writing Craft....Craft.
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ling630
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I seem to write always third
person point of view so would that be an example of what narrative is? I am
removed from the story but I am still telling it and sometimes in it.
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mary rosenblum
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Narrative is used in first,
second, and third personPOV ling.
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mary rosenblum
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Any time you are not writing
dialogue you are writing narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about narrative today. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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janecj333
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Mary, give us examples, a
sentence with poor narrative and one that's good
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mary rosenblum
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Let me do that...Ling I'll use
third person, so you can see the difference between..
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mary rosenblum
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narrative as in the author
telling the story...
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mary rosenblum
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and narrative that immerses
the reader in the action.
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mary rosenblum
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Dana slipped around the corner
of the barn. Paused. LIstened. She heard only wind, squinted as she tried
to pierce the shadows in the sagging shed. Maybe they had gone? She nocked
an arrow to her bow and slid along the barn wall, using the burned out
skeleton of the tractor as cover.
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mary rosenblum
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We see only what Dana is
looking at and since she is obviously in fear of something that might attack
her, she is only looking for threats.
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mary rosenblum
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Notice the sentence fragments.
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mary rosenblum
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The narrative is written as
much as possible to resemble Dana's own awareness of what is going on.
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mary rosenblum
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The sentence fragments emulate
the way we think...in scraps of consciousness and imagery.
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mary rosenblum
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Let me do this in narrative
that is the author telling us this...
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mary rosenblum
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Dana slispped around the
corner of the barn. She paused and listened carefully for any sounds of the
raiders. She heard nothing but the sound of wind and the faint cries of
birds as she tried to pierce the shadows in the sagging shed.
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mary rosenblum
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Maybe the raiding party had
left? The young scout nocked an arrow to her bow and slid along the barn
wall, using the burned out skeleton of the tractor.
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mary rosenblum
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Now this gives us more
information but it gives us less sense of being in Dana's head...of sharing
the action with her.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want the reader
immersed in this scene, it is not going to do the job as well.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about narrative today. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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lapart
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whats the difference in novel
narrative and playwrite narrat
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mary rosenblum
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In a play, you are essentially
writing only dialogue with stage directions.
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mary rosenblum
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There, the narrative is the
voice of each character.
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mary rosenblum
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Same thing with a screenplay.
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mary rosenblum
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It is up to the actor to do
what we do with narrative in prose...show the scene, deepen the
characterization.
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fiction_scribe
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I find my narrative more distant
when writing cross gender - any suggestions?
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of that is probably the
fact that you're not as comfortable 'being' the other gender as you are
being your own gender. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It's just a matter of
practice, mostly.
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mary rosenblum
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Write scenes with a character
of the other gender and give it to a writer who is OF that gender.
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mary rosenblum
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Ask if it works and if not,
why not.
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mary rosenblum
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Narrative intrusions are
another common 'critique comment'.
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mary rosenblum
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Usually you'll find this if
you're writing in third person POV.
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mary rosenblum
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In that case, a narrative
intrusion is where the author breaks into the scene and talks like a
voice-over in a movie or TV show.
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mary rosenblum
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Using our earlier example, let
me show you a narrative intrusion:
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mary rosenblum
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Dana slipped around the corner
of the barn. Paused. Listened. She heard only wind, squinted as she tried
to pierce the shadows in the sagging shed. She and her band of Guardians
had been out scouting for raiders when they saw the smoke from the burning
homestead. Now, ringing the burned out ruins, they crept cautiously toward
the buildings, hoping to surprise the raiders still at work. But it was too
late. They had already moved on.
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mary rosenblum
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There is a noticeable 'shift'
in tone from Dana's actions to the info-dump about the Guardians and what
they are doing and what has happened.
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mary rosenblum
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While this certainly supplies
a lot of information it deflates the tention in this scene and stops the
forward momentum of the story...
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mary rosenblum
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slowing the pace to a crawl.
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kcgreen
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what is a good balance between
narrative and dialog?
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mary rosenblum
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You need enough narrative to
keep the reader grounded in the scene, KC...
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mary rosenblum
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if you have nothing but line
after line of dialogue...
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mary rosenblum
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you end up with a 'talking
heads' scene...where we have the effect of disembodied heads jabbering in a
gray mist. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Using action tags can keep the
reader connected to the scene without bogging down the dialogue.
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janecj333
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I think of penetrating narrative
as something we would experience with every sense : Dana might slip in icy
cold mud, wind might whistle through broken boards, shadows would hang
threatening in the shed...its all in the tactile nature of it, the verbs in
a lot of cases...what do you think?
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mary rosenblum
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Absolutely, and what makes it
really powerful is to zero the narrative distance...
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mary rosenblum
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in otherwords to describe the
sensations they way the character would be aware of them...
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mary rosenblum
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rather than describing them as
things happening TO her.
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mary rosenblum
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From an outside perspective.
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telcontar
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so when would be a good time to
add that info? We need to know she's not alone, that they're professionals,
etc...
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mary rosenblum
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YOu would slip much of that
information before you got to this scene if it's an 'interior' scene,
tel...
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mary rosenblum
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WE would have seen the band
decide on tactics and spread out to surround the homestead.
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mary rosenblum
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If this is an opening scene,
the reader has enough to start with...a threat, our wary POV...
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mary rosenblum
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and as she meets up with her
band, their conversation, anger, grief over the dead will inform us of
everything I 'dumped' into that example.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu can slip backstory in a
piece at a time.
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gskearney
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Please, please tell me what
happened! You've got me all excited, and I don't know where to go to find
out how it comes out. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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Aha, you have to go write it
now, Gary. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You know, you all are always
free to use these scene bits I throw out and treat 'em as a seed...build on
'em.
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mary rosenblum
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I do that with writers
workshops...especially with kids.
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mary rosenblum
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Give 'em a scene like this and
they get to write the rest of the story. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about narrative today. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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The main problem that
beginning writers have with narrative, from what I have seen...
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mary rosenblum
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is variation.
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mary rosenblum
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All too often, ALL narrative
in a story sounds exactly alike.
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mary rosenblum
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Same words, same level of
vocabulary, same use of idiom.
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mary rosenblum
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The characters use it. The
narrative sounds just like the characters...
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mary rosenblum
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and it shades the story with
the same tone...so that it becomes rather monotonous.
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pook
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Mary, do you know of a material
you would recommend for kids who like writing, like a workbook or learning
tape?
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mary rosenblum
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Sadly, pook, I don't. Would be
fun to do one.
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mary rosenblum
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If you find a good one, let me
know will you?
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lapart
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how to you get beyond everything
sounding the same?
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, you give
characters each a unique voice, lapart.
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mary rosenblum
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That is harder than it seems
and takes a bit of work on your part.
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mary rosenblum
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Your POV character's voice
should be the one you use for narrative in the scene in limited third
POV...
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mary rosenblum
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so that we feel that we're
aware of the character's thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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Each of the other characters
in the story should sound quite different...from the MC and each other.
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tory
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If the narrative should be close
to zero distance then it will sound like a particular characters tone, no?
It, of course, needs to change for levels of actions and tension, but, you
confused me with your comments re: lack of variation.
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mary rosenblum
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You're also going to make
small changes in order to 'color' each scene with emotional tone...dark,
light, tense, relaxed...
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mary rosenblum
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You might intentionally use
passive voice in a langorous scene or where the MC is behaving...
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mary rosenblum
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in a passive fashion.
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mary rosenblum
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You're going to use a hard,
tight, maybe chopy type of narrative when the scene reflects anger, fear,
stress, pain.
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mary rosenblum
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try typing /ask and then
typing your question in the regular send bar, andi
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mary rosenblum
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ARe you asking how to show
emotional tone with narrative, andi?
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about narrative today. If you’re new here, remember that you need
to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red
question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in
order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t reach me! You can also
type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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andi
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what you said the choppy hard
type of narrative
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mary rosenblum
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Okay...
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mary rosenblum
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you create a sense of
emotional background music by the word choices you make in your narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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Eleanor leaned against the
sunwarmed rock, the sunshine like warm honey on her skin. The willow leaves
shaded her with a lacy screen and swallows twirled and soared in the
crystal sky above.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a languid and relaxed
scene. I've used long sentences and 'loaded' words that reflect comfort and
a plesant feel:
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mary rosenblum
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warm honey, lacy, twirled,
crystal. All positive nuance.
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mary rosenblum
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Eleanor crouched against the
cliff, scorched by the sun's fire. Willow twigs clawedat the hard sky.
Birds circled, spying.
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mary rosenblum
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The choppiness gives this a
breathless feel, as if our character is panting from tension or fear.
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lapart
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can the different types of
narrative structures be combine?
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mary rosenblum
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Which types, lapart? YOu mean
narrative that gives different emotional feelings?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, you vary that from scene
to scene and within scenes in order to create rising and falling dramatic
tone.
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janecj333
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instead of the info dump, thry
this? ...She and Talos didn't have time to check every burning homestead!
When would the peasants dare to defend themselves? A jackrabbit skittered
in the brush; surely if any Raiders hid nearby it would be twice dead.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, jane..
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mary rosenblum
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this is a lot of internal
thought on our character's part and it's a great way to give the readers
information.
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lapart
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intrusion and emotional
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mary rosenblum
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Narrative intrusion is
different than 'weighting' your narrative to reflect a particular emotional
shade, lapart.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, narrative intrusion
isn't a good idea.
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mary rosenblum
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It simply jolts the reader out
of any rapport he/she has with the story and shouts "I am the author
and this story is not real!"
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...narrative intrusion
is narrative written in the AUTHOR"S voice.
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mary rosenblum
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The author 'intrudes' into the
story to dump information in front of the reader.
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gskearney
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I think most of these techniques
would also apply mostly to the second or third draft after you have the
bones of the story down? Worrying too much about word choice while I'm
figuring out what's going on distracts me. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly, gary.
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mary rosenblum
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This is a good mantra: Do it
in the second draft.
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mary rosenblum
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It applies to just about
everything we talk about here.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't THINK when you're doing
the first draft. Just let the story create itself.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't WORRY about craft.
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mary rosenblum
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That has no place in the act
of creation.
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mary rosenblum
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Craft is editing and that
should come later.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, the more you do this, the
more you're aware of technique, the more you will do it during your first
draft..
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mary rosenblum
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but you won't have to think
about it, any more than someone highly trained in ballet thinks about the
pirouette he performs because he's just heard some good news.
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mary rosenblum
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He just DOES it.
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pook
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IS the outline in the creation
phase?
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mary rosenblum
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For me, it's a mix, pook, and
pretty hard work at that.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm thinking about structure,
I'm thinking about dramatic arc, and setting up guidelines.
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mary rosenblum
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I think of it as if I am
setting up lighthouses across a sea.
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mary rosenblum
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Once I start swimming, I sort
of stick my head up now and again...make sure I"m heading for the next
light house, and then go back to enjoying the sea life and exploring the
reef under me.
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mary rosenblum
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As I write a scene, I am only
concerned with the character interactions...not the niceties of craft.
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mary rosenblum
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although at this point I do a
LOT of what you all will do in draft two in my first draft...
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mary rosenblum
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because I don't have to think
about it anymore.
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mary rosenblum
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Practice does that to you.
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mary rosenblum
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The main thing to remember
about narrative is that this is a very general term.
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mary rosenblum
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There is no ONE type of
narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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It should do different things
in different cirmustances.
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mary rosenblum
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It is not good.
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mary rosenblum
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It is not bad.
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mary rosenblum
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It is prose without quotation
marks.
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mary rosenblum
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And if you think about it,
even dialogue is narrative, it is simply narrative in the voice of the
speaking character.
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gskearney
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Success in writing is written on
the hearts of the readers. __gk
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mary rosenblum
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Lovely way to put it , Gary!!!
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mary rosenblum
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I think I'll stick that one
onto my monitor.
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andi
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I think I read somewhere to put
quotation marks around what the character is telling herself
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mary rosenblum
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ONly if that character is
speaking out loud, andi.
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mary rosenblum
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If she is talking to herself
inside her own head, no quotes.
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pook
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Is description a specific type
of narrative? What's exposition?
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mary rosenblum
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Exposition is description
Pook.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll hear the term
'expository lump' used a lot.
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mary rosenblum
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My narrative intrusion
earlier, where I interrupted Dana's adventure to tell the readers all about
what was going on...
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mary rosenblum
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could also be called an
expository lump...a big batch of description that stops the forward
momentum of the story, deflates the tension and brings the pace to a
standstill.
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mary rosenblum
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Expository lumps aren't
necessarily in the author's voice...
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mary rosenblum
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narrative intrusions are just
lumps in the voice of the author.
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mary rosenblum
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Action makes the story move
forward...
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mary rosenblum
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and a lot of description makes
the story slow down and stop.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want a face paced, taut
scene, use lots of action, little description.
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mary rosenblum
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If you want a slow, relaxed
scene, use less action more description.
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mary rosenblum
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any last questions about all
things narrative?
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of the confusion stems
from those overlapping terms.
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mary rosenblum
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Exposition is narrative, so is
action, so is
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mary rosenblum
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everything, essentially...
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mary rosenblum
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and they all get other
'labels' too.
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lapart
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does narrative moves the plot?
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, lapart. Your story
IS narrative.
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mary rosenblum
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It is how you use that
narrative, what form you give it, that moves your plot.
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mary rosenblum
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You use action, dialogue,
description...
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janecj333
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if narrative comes from 'to
narrate, to know', does exposition come form 'expose'?
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mary rosenblum
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I think the latin root is 'to
show', but it has been way too many years since I took latin, jane.
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mary rosenblum
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Since narrative is essentally
everything, we subdivide it into different 'jobs'...
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mary rosenblum
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exposition and action for
example.
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janecj333
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when I want to slow a scene, I
sometimes pan out like a wide-angled lens; other times I look down at the
most minute of objects for exquisite detail
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mary rosenblum
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That's varying the narrative
distance, jane, and it's a good way to vary the tension of the scene.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour.
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mary rosenblum
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I hope this helps you untangle
that skene of 'writing terms' that can get so overwhelming.
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gskearney
|
Bye, Mary. Thanks. Happy
holidays everyone. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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YOu have a great Thanksgiving,
too, Gary!
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mary rosenblum
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And I'll be here for the
regular Forum on Friday.
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mary rosenblum
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Join us tomorrow for our
casual chat...
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mary rosenblum
|
same time and place as this
Forum..
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mary rosenblum
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but we just hang out and
visit.
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mary rosenblum
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And occasionally throw people
into the moat. (You have to be there...)
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speckledorf
|
Hey...Pam told me she finished
her NaNo!
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mary rosenblum
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Woohoo!!! Way to go, Pam.
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mary rosenblum
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When I send out the next
website update...next week...
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mary rosenblum
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I'll ask all you nano folk who
are going to finish to tell me about your novel and I'll send out a special
mailing so we can all applaud.
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mary rosenblum
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Bye all!
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mary rosenblum
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See you tomorrow for our
casual chat!
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