Forum Transcripts

Narrative versus Telling...What is the Difference? 3/14/06

Event start time:

Tue Mar 14 12:08:13 2006

Event end time:

Tue Mar 14 13:31:24 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Good morning, all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you all had a good weekend and are seeing a few signs of spring, at least!

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about narrative today, a topic that is pertinent to Nonfiction writers as well as fiction writers.

mary rosenblum

It can get confusing when you constantly hear 'show, don't tell', but then some stories are definitely 'told' by the author...

mary rosenblum

as are personal narratives in nonfiction.

mary rosenblum

And of course, first person POV is a narrative, told by your Point of View character.

mary rosenblum

So when are these 'narratives' instead of 'telling' and what makes narrative good?

mary rosenblum

There IS a difference and a powerful narrative voice is a very important skill...

mary rosenblum

if you're going to write either nonfiction personal narrative or narrative fiction.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Essentially, of course, narrative, first person, and that dreaded 'telling' are all the same thing.

mary rosenblum

Someone...either you the author, or your POV character...is telling the story to the reader.

mary rosenblum

It's not easy, as a novice writer, to really comprehend the difference between strong narrative and 'telling'...and it's an important difference.

mephistopheles

then as a newbie with assignment 3 looming before me, what is the difference between narrative voice and telling voice?

mary rosenblum

Well, the limitation of ALL narrative is that you make the reader aware with every sentence...

mary rosenblum

that he/she is not living that scene... Someone is telling you what is happening.

mary rosenblum

So, in effect, you push the reader one step back from 'living' the adventure.

mary rosenblum

So the difference between 'telling' and 'narrative' is...does that telling add more to the piece than you lose by pushing the reader back?

kungfumama

one of the foremost narrative fiction POV is Watson of Sherlock Holmes fame. Even to this day, the stories are very compelling.

mary rosenblum

Excellent example, Kung. And another powerful narrative voice is...

mary rosenblum

Kipling's overt narrator in the 'Just So Stories'...

mary rosenblum

where he addresses the reader as 'Oh, best beloved'.

geordee

Mary; Please excuse this naieve ? but where is this red ?

mary rosenblum

What, geordee? The books? Or the transcript of this forum?

monicaguinta

Like Scout in "To Kill a Mockingbird"

mary rosenblum

There you go... my favorite all time example of many things good. :-)

mary rosenblum

And in all three cases, the voice of the narrator adds to the story.

cosmos

So is narrative voice sharing or talking to a pretend reader, which is different from internal dialogue?

mary rosenblum

Right, cosmos. Narrative voice is the author, or a character speaking.

mary rosenblum

Internal monologue is the character's own internal thoughts.

mary rosenblum

And some first person narratives are created to seem like that character's internal thought...I tend to use that form in my first person...

mary rosenblum

but you're still creating a voice that adds to the story rather than weakening it.

mary rosenblum

In essence the narrator...whether it is YOU or a created character...IS a character in that story.

mary rosenblum

And therefore you need to create a three dimensional character through that voice for your reader.

monicaguinta

I find it hard to keep the pace up when I write this way

mary rosenblum

You may simply be a natural 'third person writer', monica. I am. :-) But sometimes...

mary rosenblum

a story simply works better in first person, and then I do it.

cosmos

Is narrative voice always done in first person?

ling630

This can be done with third person story too, can't it Mary?

mary rosenblum

Oh, yes.

mary rosenblum

First person is 'I'.

mary rosenblum

Many personal narratives us that first person narrative voice.

mary rosenblum

In fiction, it's your character who is 'I'.

mary rosenblum

In personal narrative nonfiction it is you, the author, who is the 'I'...

mary rosenblum

but many personal narratives and fiction use third...

mary rosenblum

with a strong 'storytelling' voice.

mary rosenblum

In Kipling's Just So Stories, for example, there is no 'I'...

mary rosenblum

Kipling tells the stories of his animal characters in third person...The elephant's child did this or that...

mary rosenblum

but the voice is strongly a storyteller's voice, telling the story.

mary rosenblum

You see that in many personal narratives, too, although I see 'I' used more often.

ling630

That is what I do, but I find that it is hard to keep the story in one narrative. I end up with first person along with third person. Can that work or is it best to stick to one or the other ?

mary rosenblum

You really should stick to one or the other, ling. It generally confuses the HECK out of the readers when you switch like that.

mary rosenblum

But if you're using that 'I' narrative, you can certainly tell us about what is going on for long periods of time without intruding yourself.

mary rosenblum

When readers are confused is when you use a first person 'I' and then move to a scene where that 'I' is not present.

geordee

Can you give us a simple example of Narrative vs. telling

mary rosenblum

Yes. And in a first person narrative where you, the author, are using 'I' occasionally and telling us about your life experience, you will use a lot of third person...

mary rosenblum

but it's still a first person narrative...you are telling us about things you remember.

mary rosenblum

You were there, obviously.

mary rosenblum

Example.

janecj333

Wasn't it Like Water For Chocolate that has pages of telling and then switching from 1st to 3rd person and back? It was unreadable, as I recall.

mary rosenblum

I haven't read it, but I did hear that it was a difficult book.

mary rosenblum

Certainly, while you can do anything, it is very hard to pull something like that off without jolting many readers.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Let me do a bit of 'telling' first...

mary rosenblum

the kind of thing you're not supposed to do. :-)

mary rosenblum

Jeanne walked into the living room and sat down. She looked out the window at the apple blossoms on the old Gravenstein tree. She was annoyed that Bart was late again. Bart was always late. She fiddled with her charm bracelet and couldn't help but watch the clock.

mary rosenblum

Okay. That's telling.

mary rosenblum

Essentially, I am merely describing the action...I am telling the readers what I see, and I'm not really adding anything to that action.

mary rosenblum

This would be a stronger scene if we just 'saw' Jeanne. I, the narrator am merely telling you that she is annoyed iwth Bart, that Bart is always late.

mary rosenblum

I tell you that she can't help watching the clock, but I, the narrator am a colorless voice...

mary rosenblum

adding nothing to that scene.

geezer

Jeanne walked into the room. "Hi, Bart," she said. Now that is a tag and not telling unless it's longer?

mary rosenblum

Yes, let me give you the showing version...

mary rosenblum

Before I do the stronger narrative form:

mary rosenblum

Jeanne walked into the living room and sat down. No Bart. Of course. She scowled at the old Grave, blooming reliably. Always. He always made her late. She glanced at the clock. Five minutes. How much longer?

mary rosenblum

This is HER awareness of the wait in the living room.

mary rosenblum

It simply gives the reader a stronger sense of her as a person...we share her thoughts.

mary rosenblum

She notices 'the old Grav' and thinks about its reliability compared to Barts.

mary rosenblum

Now let's do this in narrative and see if we can convey the same things with a strong narrative voice.

mary rosenblum

Jeanne walked into the living room and sat down. She had arrived exactly on time, of course. She always arrived exactly on time. That way, she had an accurate count...

mary rosenblum

of exactly how many minutes late Bart was when he'd finally arrive. That count was very important to her, as important as the count and quality of another woman's pearls.

mary rosenblum

And like pearls, she polished each tardy minute to a high gloss as she waited.

mary rosenblum

Frowning, she fixed her eyes on the old Gravenstein outside the window, comparing it's steadfast blooming with her brother's unreliability.

mary rosenblum

This is, of course, very unlike our first two examples.

mary rosenblum

I'm not just telling you what I see.

mary rosenblum

In the second, 'showing' example, we perceived the scene through Jeanne's awareness and shared her annoyance with Bart directly...

mary rosenblum

without any other context.

mary rosenblum

But here, I, the author, know Jeanne well. And I am filtering this scene through MY awareness...

mary rosenblum

adding the larger context of Jeanne's annoyance.

mary rosenblum

I'm letting the reader know that this is a long-time thing between Jeanne and Bart, that while Bart may be late, Jeanne is focused on his lateness...

mary rosenblum

in a way that might suggest larger relationship issues. I am putting my two cents worth in here, in other words.

rey

Can you switch first person point of view from character to another character in the same story?

mary rosenblum

I have seen it done well very few times, rey. It's VERY hard to pull off unless your characters sound SO different...

mary rosenblum

in terms of voice that the reader INSTANTLY knows who is speaking.

mary rosenblum

When I have seen it (and I'm trying to come up with a specific title, but so far drawing a blank)...

mary rosenblum

one voice has been 'different'...an alien, an animal, a rock...something like that...

mary rosenblum

so that it didn't speak like the other first person character.

mary rosenblum

It's not something to attempt casually and expect a lot of success with.

andi

so seing it through Jeanne eyes all that last wouldn't be in there

mary rosenblum

Exactly, Andi. She is just annoyed with Bart. She isn't aware that this is a metaphor for a power struggle between her and her brother.

curseofthe44

I recently read an article on a writing site that many editors are tired of seeing stories in first person. Do you think this is true?

mary rosenblum

Yes and no, curse.

mary rosenblum

What editors are tired of is poor quality first person. It's very hard to write GOOD first person...

mary rosenblum

and most first person stories really shouldn't be in first person, in my opinion.

mary rosenblum

We're talking unpublished ms, here. :-)

mary rosenblum

When a story needs first person, it really works...but as with my narrative examples...

mary rosenblum

if your first person character is merely describing action...

mary rosenblum

use third person.

janecj333

Is this still narrative? "Next thing I know Jeanne wanders into the room. She's doing this thing with her wrist, like looking at the watch is gonna hurry that bum up. Bart's always late, I wanna tell her. He's always GONNA be late. An idiot could've divined her entire married future when he wriggled through the gate at St. Gabriel's in his slippers and and robe."

mary rosenblum

Yes, Jane.

mary rosenblum

This is a very strong narrative voice. Notice that this narrator is commenting on Jeanne, not just describing action with bland prose.

mary rosenblum

"An idiot could have devined....' This is the narrator's opinion of Jeanne.

mary rosenblum

We are getting a sense of what the narrator thinks of Jeanne.

cosmos

I went off to read some of Kipling's Just So stories from my bookcase. So third person narrative is story telling, as in fairy tales. Good story telling doesn't tell but show through narrative. Is this correct?

mary rosenblum

Yep...although it doesn't always have to be that fairytale 'once upon a time' voice.

mary rosenblum

Jane's version is also a storyteller telling us about Jeanne.

mary rosenblum

I just read a retelling of Cinderella by Gardner Doizois in narrative form...

mary rosenblum

and again, the narrative voice is strong and adds a lot of personal perception to the story...think of it as 'spin'.

cosmos

How do you know your first person story isn't working and you should switch to third person?

mary rosenblum

Well, generally, if a story just won't work for me, and I can't put my finger on the reason it feels 'flat'...

mary rosenblum

I'll just try writing the first scene in first person. If the story takes off...that's the right voice.

rey

thanks, I have been practice writing with two characters, one is very arrogant and thinks he can take on the world, while the other is living in a time with a lot of social standards and trys to keep up with society standards

mary rosenblum

They sound like a good character pair, rey...instant friction! :-)

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

andi

Mary off the topic. i'm starting a story about my pet and i was thinking of trying for a childrens book does it always have to have drawings?

mary rosenblum

It depends on the reading level, andi, and what you are trying to accomplish.

mary rosenblum

Realize that publishers prefer to select the artist.

mary rosenblum

They do not expect...nor want...you to send drawings to accompany your text.

geordee

Mary; thanks for that example. It cleared out al lot of fog.

mary rosenblum

I'm glad, geordee...it is very difficult to understand where telling ends and narrative begins when you are first writing.

mary rosenblum

And as far as first person POV stories go, there are good reasons to select first person.

mary rosenblum

ONe is if your story is very internal.

mary rosenblum

If you find that your character is doing a lot of thinking...try using first person.

mary rosenblum

If your story is very action driven, you might be better off with third.

mary rosenblum

Remember that narrative allows...and really requires...the input of your narrator..

mary rosenblum

that narrator should give us more than a mere description of the action.

cosmos

When you say that narrative voice is spin, then do you mean that a great public speaker who shares a passion to an audience is speaking in narrative voice? Just like the great story tellers who come to the library to share tales with children?

mary rosenblum

Sure. Any time you speak in public you should be delivering a narrative.

mary rosenblum

Even if it's a biology lecture!

mary rosenblum

THat is the essence of good public speaking...think of the college lectures that put you to sleep.

mary rosenblum

That's an example of bad narrative.

dfitz

Mary, I am having difficutly with lesson 3. I am doing a factual article that discusses current developments in the medical field. HOw do I insert my opinions into this to make it a stronger narrative?

mary rosenblum

Well, you may not be able to in a factual narrative, dfitz...

mary rosenblum

Remember that all nonfiction pieces are not narratives in the sense of author involvement.

mary rosenblum

You have no narrative voice in journalism...it's a big NO.

mary rosenblum

ladyg, try typing /ask in your regular send bar and then your question...

mary rosenblum

you can do a longer question that way.

mary rosenblum

If you are trying to convey information for an 'informative piece' without delivering an opinion...

mary rosenblum

then you don't use narrative voice.

mary rosenblum

You simply deliver the information factually, in a well organized manner...

mary rosenblum

using clear, succinct, uncluttered prose.

mary rosenblum

(Read Zinsser's chapters on clutter and simplicity in On Writing Well for a great 'how to')

cosmos

For dfitz...I find experts with the opinions I want in the article and include their quotes.

mary rosenblum

Yes, and you can deliver factual information as a persuasive piece, where, for example...

mary rosenblum

you are trying to persuade the reader that we need stricter gas mileage standards...

mary rosenblum

and there you will use a bit more sense of narrative voice, but nothing like we used in the Jeanne example.

janecj333

So, if strong narrative voice is important in 1st person, I'm thinking that narrative sometimes has to be plain, too. Things happen and there's no emotional content.

mary rosenblum

Well, not necessarily, Jane. If you have a lot happening and your narrator isn't going to comment on it much, maybe you'd be better off with third person.

mary rosenblum

Yes sometimes, your first person narrator is just going to say...

mary rosenblum

I got my horse out of the stable and hit the road before Dukie could wake up from his drunken stupor and realize...

mary rosenblum

his purse was missing...

mary rosenblum

But if you're doing to do a lot of 'and then everybody went to have dinner in the inn. After that we bedded down in the stable loft for the night...

mary rosenblum

and this goes on and on...it's boring.

mary rosenblum

Use third person and let us scratch fleas with the POV for awhile.

ladyg

Will you comment on the success of Annie Dillard, etc, with regard to "telling vs showing in non-fiction? Is that the ability to "spin"?

mary rosenblum

I haven't read all her books, but her early ones were very much narrative.

mary rosenblum

'Pilgrim at Tinker Creek' was the first I read...

mary rosenblum

and that's a strong narrative voice.

mary rosenblum

A lot of Ken Kesey's writing is, as well.

ladyg

...but with a lot of the color that comes from using the showing techiniques used in fiction...?

mary rosenblum

Yes...

mary rosenblum

that's part of what goes into strong narrative...

mary rosenblum

a powerful use of details and imagery...

mary rosenblum

Remember...bland prose is bland prose, whether you use it in first person, third person, narrative, or limited third POV.

mary rosenblum

It's weak.

mary rosenblum

When you couple a bland narrative voice with bland descriptions of the action and visuals...you have boring prose. Period.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

kungfumama

in your opinion, what are some books and/or authors we should read to get a good perspective on narrative voice?

mary rosenblum

well, To Kill a Mockingbird is a very nice example of fiction done in narrative form.

mary rosenblum

Scout is the narrator.

mary rosenblum

Annie Dillard's Pilgrim at Tinker Creek is strong narrative.

mary rosenblum

I think that book won a couple of awards as I recall.

mary rosenblum

The personal narrative writers like Bailey White are good examples of narrative voice.

ladyg

and Zinsser would love it--it's short! :)

mary rosenblum

LOL, ladyg.

mary rosenblum

And of course, Sherlock Holmes, narrated by Watson, is a prime example. :-)

janecj333

Maybe it's present versus past tense that's bothering me, in 1st person.

mary rosenblum

You can use either one, Jane. I tend to prefer present tense, but it's hard to keep that tight focus all the way through.

janecj333

I guess that when I read 1st person it all sounds like dialogue, even the narrative, because of the narrator.

mary rosenblum

In a way, it IS dialogue, jane. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's a one sided conversation with the reader.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking narrative versus 'telling'. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

dfitz

Poisonwood Bible?

mary rosenblum

Sorry, dfitz...you sent me this some time ago..

mary rosenblum

Yes, that's very narrative as I recall.

mary rosenblum

The main thing to remember is that the dividing line between 'telling' and 'narrative'...

mary rosenblum

is the contribution of the narrator.

mary rosenblum

That narrator should add something. It should not be an unvarnished rendition of the action only.

dfitz

I intended that as an example of multiple first person POV

mary rosenblum

Ah...I couldn't remember.

mary rosenblum

I had forgotten she did that. :-)

mary rosenblum

That was not a book that stuck in my memory very much.

mary rosenblum

God of Small THings by Arundhati Roy is another piece of strong, narrative fiction.

geezer

So the amount of "telling" distinguishes between a tag and the narrative. What's the dividing lone?

mary rosenblum

Geezer, a 'tag' is just the identifier attached to a line of dialogue.

mary rosenblum

"I don't know," Ruby said.

mary rosenblum

Ruby said is the tag.

mary rosenblum

It identifies the speaker of 'I don't know'.

mary rosenblum

Or you can use what I call an 'action tag'.

mary rosenblum

"I don't know." Ruby crossed her arms.

mary rosenblum

Ruby crossed her arms, is a beat of action that identifies the speaker of "I don't know'.

mary rosenblum

If Ruby is our POV, she is simply aware of crossing her arms.

mary rosenblum

If another character is the POV, he/she sees Ruby cross her arms.

mary rosenblum

If we're doing narrative, we'd probably add more to this.

mary rosenblum

"I don't know." Ruby crossed her arms, giving us that 'you won't make me so don't even bother' look.

mary rosenblum

Here, the narrator gives us a larger picture rather than the action.

mary rosenblum

And that's the key difference.

mary rosenblum

In 'showing' you let the readers figure out what is going on for themselves...

mary rosenblum

which makes them feel as if they are sharing a real adventure.

mary rosenblum

IN narrative, the narrator adds a lot more context to the action so that even while we're being told the story, the story is rich enough...

mary rosenblum

that it compensates.

geezer

But, if he comtinued from there it would become telling?

mary rosenblum

Well, narrative IS telling. It's just that the 'telling' you don't want to do is MERELY telling the reader what the narrator sees.

mary rosenblum

And good narrative is telling the reader things that add interest to the action.

mary rosenblum

As with many things in writing, it's a matter of degree.

mary rosenblum

Ideally, your narrative voice is much different than plain description.

mary rosenblum

AS in our example of Jeanne, the narrator is giving us her 'spin' on Jeanne's behavior.

mary rosenblum

And we get a sense of the narrator's feelings about jeanne.

mary rosenblum

When you're doing first person narrative...take the time to develope a strong unique voice for your first person character...

mary rosenblum

so that it doesn't become bland 'telling'.

mary rosenblum

Give us a sense of your POV character's personality with every sentence in the story.

kungfumama

which means developing your character first, like on a character sheet, before you write?

mary rosenblum

It helps most people, kung.

mary rosenblum

Othewise, most novice writers have a tendency to just turn that character into a plot puppet...

mary rosenblum

that does or says whatever the plot requires. Not very realistic and readers know it.

mary rosenblum

It always takes me some time to really 'hear' a first person character's speech patterns...

mary rosenblum

so that I can do a strong voice.

mary rosenblum

I tend to let that character ramble on for a few days, commenting on all the things going on around the house before I put that person onto the page. :-)

geezer

Off topic. Does the manuscript for a novel require a word count the same as a SS?

mary rosenblum

Yes, it does, geeze, rounded off to the nearest thousand.

kungfumama

what about the Lemony Snickett series? It has a very quirky narrative style.

mary rosenblum

Oh, yes, great example!

mary rosenblum

That's half the book! It's the voice that makes those adventures really appeal.

mary rosenblum

Written without that quirky voice, they'd just be kids being chased by the evil bad guy.

mary rosenblum

Really good narrative voice is as important as the story plot itself.

mary rosenblum

Take it away and the story suffers.

mary rosenblum

If you take it away and the story does NOT suffer...

mary rosenblum

maybe you shouldn't be using narrative voice!

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour. :-)

mary rosenblum

I hope you all have a good week...and if you're going to write narratives, really take that voice 'over the top'.

janecj333

I'm thinking of some of the horrible narrative voices...with dialect you have to wade through.

mary rosenblum

yeah, well some people INSIST on writing phonetic dialect...

mary rosenblum

she says, thinking of Brian Jacques cockney moles!

geezer

Uncle Remus

mary rosenblum

Yep...we'll talk about dialect on another Forum. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcripts in the usual place, all.

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Have a good week!

 

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