Forum Transcripts

Non Narrative Description: 11/30/04

Event start time:

Tue Nov 30 12:05:58 2004

Event end time:

Tue Nov 30 13:33:29 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Tuesday Forum... I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.

mary rosenblum

And survived the Black Friday shopping madness, if you ventured out into it.

mary rosenblum

I didn't. :-)

mary rosenblum

What's the good news, roe?

roe

Romance at Heart sent me a contract for my 2nd novella

mary rosenblum

Congrats, Roe! (Might as well have this show up in the transcript! :-))

mary rosenblum

That's great! Will this be in print, online or ebook?

roe

online and possible ebook

mary rosenblum

Good for you! Let me know when it's up and I'll put the link on the website.

roe

might even be a pod

roe

okay thanks it's scheduled for April

mary rosenblum

I think I'm going to start a new category in our Surviving and Thriving section...

mary rosenblum

featuring student publications...links to Amazon.com or their website or wherever they want people to purchase their books.

mary rosenblum

And you can send me a blurb to post with the title and link.

mary rosenblum

Or post links to online articles/stories. We might as well promote our members here!

mary rosenblum

I'll send out an invite when I have the details settled.

mary rosenblum

So if you have something in print/online/ebook, start working on that eyecatching and powerful blurb!

t green

would this link also be for ICL students or graduates who gravitate to the Long Ridge forums, Mary??

mary rosenblum

You bet, t green...and for website regulars, too, even if you're not a LR grad...

mary rosenblum

Okay...

mary rosenblum

let's talk about non narrative description....

mary rosenblum

because this is probably what new writers have the most trouble with...and it seems to be the toughest thing to learn how to do.

mary rosenblum

But once you 'get it', it's a snap.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about non narrative description. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Non narrative description is the foundation of show don't tell...

mary rosenblum

because it makes the readers feel as if you are actually 'showing' them the scene rather than telling them.

mary rosenblum

And this is all, of course, sleight of hand...

mary rosenblum

because without telepathy, you really are telling them, of course...

mary rosenblum

but you make it SEEM as if they are seeing it.

mary rosenblum

And how do you do that?

mary rosenblum

You simply make a much more direct connection between words on the page and image in the brain.

mary rosenblum

So in effect, there is no conscious translation between word and visual.

mary rosenblum

If I say 'rain'...

mary rosenblum

most people will see whatever 'rain' means to you...

mary rosenblum

a curtain of gray drizzle (you can tell I live in Oregon) or a pounding downpour..

mary rosenblum

whatever 'rain' means to you visually.

mary rosenblum

If I say 'It was raining'....we have a pause while our brain organizes It, was, and raining' and then we see the rain.

mary rosenblum

So our conscious mind had to get involved and that puts a sort of 'pause' or 'filter' between 'rain' and the image of rain in the reader's mind.

mary rosenblum

Non narrative description simply means removing the narrative words like 'It' and 'was'...

mary rosenblum

but of course, a bunch of disconnected descriptives aren't going to make any sense...

mary rosenblum

so you simply attach them to other things...usually a character's action...

mary rosenblum

so that the visual words come to the reader without the narrative.

mary rosenblum

Let's take the classic example:

mary rosenblum

It was a dark and stormy night.

mary rosenblum

You'll see 'darkness' and whatever 'stormy' means to you...trees swaying, leaves blowing, shingles flying...whatever...

mary rosenblum

but it comes after that narrative pause: It was a...so our conscious mind is involved and knows that this isn't really happening it's just a story you're telling.

mary rosenblum

This is the non narrative form of 'It was a dark and stormy night'...

mary rosenblum

Brett ducked into the slashing rain, groping for landmarks in the howling darkness.

mary rosenblum

It was a dark and stormy night.

mary rosenblum

Now which one seems more real?

mary rosenblum

What I did NOT do here, was to separate the description from the action.

mary rosenblum

That is the key.

mary rosenblum

The narrative version would be: It was a dark and stormy night. Brett struggled across the barnyard.

jackie7777

So we let the characters tell us what is happening?

mary rosenblum

Sort of. IN this case, because this is in third person, Brett isn't really telling us, but by the fact that he is ducking into the slashing rain...

mary rosenblum

and groping for landmarks in the howling darkness, we get rain, wind, and night...

mary rosenblum

In first person, of course, Brett would have to tell us...

mary rosenblum

I ducked into the storm, groping my way across the barnyard. The ran slashed my face like knifes...

mary rosenblum

knives... I really CAN spell.

mary rosenblum

And to me, by the way, the third person version is stronger. Because we can see the storm and the visuals aren't filtered through Brett.

mary rosenblum

Which is why I often repeat that stories with a lot of action or vivid visuals are better off most of the time in third person rather than first.

mary rosenblum

One way to maket his happen is to put yourself consciously into your POV character's head.

mary rosenblum

Now you ARE that person. What would you as that character be aware of? What would you actually think here?

mary rosenblum

If you're struggling through a storm, especially if there is some urgency...

mary rosenblum

would you actually THINK 'It's a dark and stormy night?"

mary rosenblum

I wouldn't. I probably wouldn't think about the weather at all...just be painfully aware of the icy rain slashing my face and the howling wind and the fact I couldn't even find my way across familiar ground!

mary rosenblum

So to mimic that state of mind, there is no 'thought' filtering..

mary rosenblum

we don't say, Brett groped his way across the barnyard thinking it was a dark and stormy night.

mary rosenblum

We simply let the reader see it as the rain and howling darkness impact him.

jackie7777

Let the actions speak louder than the words.

mary rosenblum

bingo, jackie!

mary rosenblum

You know that old 'picture is worth a thousand words' cliche?

mary rosenblum

It REALLY is true and it REALLY applies to prose!

phil-w

In first person, how do you handle a naratorless scene?

mary rosenblum

There is no narratorless scene if first person, phil. That is the one limitation of first person, and one to be aware if.

mary rosenblum

It is ALL told.

mary rosenblum

It has to be.

mary rosenblum

That said, you can do an approximation of that type of description by using what I call 'direct first person'...

mary rosenblum

where the person seems to be reacting to ongoing events rather than telling us about it later.

mbvoelker

IMO experience makes good description. I needed a rain in the woods scene and after I fought with cliches a while I tossed a blanket over my head and walked up a hillside in a downpour. It only took 10 mintues to get the right feel -- "The rain rattled on our cloak hoods as we wound our way down the oozing trail ridged with alternating ledges of rock and puddles of slime. The horses stepped cautiously over tiny streams that would have been graveled ditches in dry weather."

mary rosenblum

And that's a good example of first person description, mb.

mary rosenblum

Yes, often doing it yourself helps....just don't jump off a cliff to get verisimilitude! LOL

t green

Mary, how do you show your main character's actions? My scene is from her POV and she's very angry, upset. How can I "show" her body language without breaking POV?

t green

Oh, scene is 3rd person...

mary rosenblum

That is hard, t...you have to think about what a person does when she is angry...

mary rosenblum

And trust that the reader will recognize that body language. If you do it right, they will. We are all pretty good at interpreting body language...we do it every day.

mary rosenblum

Anna stomped into the room and snatched the mail from the table. Junk. She flung it at the wastebasket, missed. Kicked envelopes and catalogues aside as she marched into the kitchen. "Wendy! You get in here, now!"

mary rosenblum

Got any quesitons about her state of mind?

mary rosenblum

What shows anger?

mary rosenblum

Clenched fists. Bitten lip. Character feels herself flush or go white...

mary rosenblum

Swallows the words she wants to say...

mary rosenblum

these are all indicators of emotion and will paint us a picture of her emotional state.

roe

slamming things usually works well for anger

mary rosenblum

Oh yes. :-)

bobbi

new here what is POV mean?

mary rosenblum

Hi, bobbi, and welcome. POV is Point of View.

mary rosenblum

MC is main character. :-)

t green

like this is what i've got right now... "NO!" Flair clenched and unclenched her fists, arms rigid at her sides. Sweat popped out on her forehead. Legs trembling, she locked her knees, struggling to remain upright. Is this a good example?

mary rosenblum

Yes, t, and I'd say that she is REALLY upset...the struggling to remain upright would indicate anxiety/fear/distress to me rather than anger, though. Me, I might kick somebody if I'm angry, but i"m not likely to collapse. :-)

smilingsunflower

It is good to read self-help books on reading/interpreting body language to help in writing about characters.

mary rosenblum

They can help, smiling, but you know what helps even more?

mary rosenblum

Watch people. :-)

mary rosenblum

We are taught that it is rude to stare and we learn to not really look at people...it's a social politeness that lets us get along, AND a direct stare is a challenge...

mary rosenblum

that is universal among animals including humans.

mary rosenblum

BUT...you can look and observe without staring.

mary rosenblum

I love to go to a mall food court, for example, get a cup of coffee and watch people..

mary rosenblum

you'll see tired, irritable, happy, sad, uneasy, self absorbed, extroverted...

mary rosenblum

all shades of human emotion...

t green

Yes, fear and distress are there... good... i got it right. thanks!

mary rosenblum

Yep, you did...pretty strong, too.

rissa

So that's why you said it is better to use 3rd person. It would be very hard to "show" angry in 1st person. That char would most likely "tell" that she is angry instead.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, rissa. I stared at him feeling my face go white. In about a second I was going to hit him. "Get out of here," I whispered.

gskearney

Sports on TV is a good place to watch too.

mary rosenblum

It can be, gsk, but the stupid cameras keep cutting away too fast. ;-)

mary rosenblum

Don't use TV as a research tool for body language generally.

mary rosenblum

Unless the person being filmed is really unaware, they are changing their body language because of that awareness that they are on TV.

mary rosenblum

So body language on the screen or on stage is not real...it is overexagerrated to portray the story to the watcher.

mary rosenblum

Watch real people.

mary rosenblum

I send writing students out with pen and paper to public places, buses, and so forth...

mary rosenblum

and ask them to describe people illustrating different emotional states...real people that they see.

mary rosenblum

It's an excellent exercise.

mary rosenblum

I do it automatically all the time. ;-)

mary rosenblum

While I was waiting for my aunt at a restaurant yesterday...

mary rosenblum

I watched a young teen girl and middle aged woman come in...

mary rosenblum

mom and daughter? I paid attention to the body language...mom stiff and clearly not entirely comfortable, being too animated, smiling too much...

mary rosenblum

daughter, head down, sulky slump, sleeves pulled over hands, chin on her fists, no eye contact...

mary rosenblum

Had fun making up the story of what was going on here.

mary rosenblum

If I am not actually doing something, I am watching people and making up stories about what is going on...

rissa

My Interpersonal Communications instructor in college had us do that. We went and sat in the cafeteria and picked one person and watched them, then we had to come back to class and explain all we could about the person's mood, feelings, etc. from what we saw

mary rosenblum

Yep... good practice.

mary rosenblum

I used to get together with two other writers...we'd go sit somewhere and make up entire novels about the people we saw walking past! LOL

mary rosenblum

It was a great creative exercise.

mary rosenblum

It will help you a lot when you want people to know how your character feels and not tell those readers.

sweett

Mary, I have an idea for hands-on forum. You provide an example for us to rewrite using a specific style. Then you provide instructional comments.

mary rosenblum

That would be a fun one...

mary rosenblum

what kinds of styles were you thinking of, sweett?

phil-w

What's the secret of asking long questions?

mary rosenblum

Phil, try typing /ask in your regular send bar, leave a space, then type your question.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about non narrative description. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

sweett

any would be fine. I saw the example earlier and was trying to rewrite it. Thought it could be fun.

mary rosenblum

I

mary rosenblum

I

mary rosenblum

I'll do one, Swett.

mary rosenblum

In first person, the MC is telling us what is going on...

mary rosenblum

and you have to ask yourself...would he really say that right now?

mary rosenblum

In third person, we make the reader feel as if we are seeing the character in action...and by using the character's own vocabulary...

mary rosenblum

and style of speaking, we make much of those visuals seem to be the character's own perceptions.

mary rosenblum

So a lot of non narrative descsription should be filtered through the POV>

roe

a lot of mumbling and grumbling helps too if the MC is alone, right?

mary rosenblum

As long as it seems realistic, roe. Too much talking out loud and we readers are smiling because we see behind the curtain...

mary rosenblum

to the author, pulling strings to let us know what our MC is thinking! LOL

mary rosenblum

Thought is fine.

mary rosenblum

In our earlier example, as Anna kicked through the fallen mail, that 'junk!' was her thought.

mary rosenblum

If I look at a pile of junk mail that's all I'm going to think. I'm not going to actually think, 'It was all junk mail'...

mbvoelker

Talking to a dog or a horse can be pretty natural though. ;-)

mary rosenblum

As long as it's realistic.

mary rosenblum

Often we blend verbalized speech with an animal with thought.

mary rosenblum

If I'm going through a long mental monolog about my rotten afternoon with some distant relatives...

mary rosenblum

I might speak some sentences to my dogs, but a lot of that will be mental...

mary rosenblum

But if your character consistently talks to his horse while he's grooming...

mary rosenblum

if he's a lonely and isolated sort and his horse is obviously his confidant, that works.

mary rosenblum

Remember...

mary rosenblum

if you need a character to behave a certain way in your story, build a character who WILL behave that way naturally.

bobbi

What about if talking say to a baby

mary rosenblum

That would work, bobbi.

mary rosenblum

Mom could tell baby just how come life is tough right now, and how mom is sure they're going to be okay...

mary rosenblum

and we'll learn a lot as we listen.

roe

so how do we present our mumbling -grumbling thoughts without using the words - she thought

mary rosenblum

Well, she thought, like she said, is sometimes a very useful tag. It's not a case of 'never use it'...just don't use it always either!

mary rosenblum

Jason prwled the edges of the Homecoming crowd, out of place, the loser. Oughta be home working on math, and why would Randi even look at him? He passed a knot of bright dresses, recognized Carayn's little group too late...

mary rosenblum

winced at the giggles. Damn. He squinted. There...over there just on the far side of the popcorn stand.

mary rosenblum

This is meant to let the reader feel that we're overhearing Jason's thoughts. But making some of the desciption sound like Jason's words...

mary rosenblum

Lose...Oughta be home working on man...Damn...

mary rosenblum

we color all the description with the feel of his thoughts.

info

it's kind of like tagging who said what or to verify it was a thought, right?

mary rosenblum

Yes, exactly, info...

mary rosenblum

and if the reader might read the thought as a spoken line, add that 'he thought'.

mary rosenblum

"I really don't want to go. No kidding." Jason shoved his hands into his pockets. "Hey, I'll see you tomrrow." But not if you see me first, he thought.

mary rosenblum

That 'he thought' reinforces the fact that But not if you see me first is a thought, not said out loud.

mary rosenblum

You have to realize that some readers are sloppy or careless or read too fast and help 'em out a bit.

phil-w

On a question that came up earlier, I saw "sweat poped from a forehead". I had a hard time visualizing that. Would oozed have been better?

mary rosenblum

This is a case of inside/outside POV, phil.

mary rosenblum

If you suddenly break into a sweat it can prickle and feel as if it has suddenly popped into being on your skin.

mary rosenblum

Oozed, is more visual, which puts the POV outside our MC.

tory

Mary, my critique group told me to "always" italicize thought. But I've seen published books that just let it flow as in your Anna example. both OK?

mary rosenblum

I never italicize thought, tory. Italic makes the words sound like something different than speech, often louder or not in a human voice.

mary rosenblum

Now some publishers insist on italicizing internal thought...and if I run into those...such as Berkely, who published my msyteries...

mary rosenblum

I simply stop using direct thought, because I don't want it italicized.

phil-w

How can drops of liquid pop out of anything?

mary rosenblum

It's a sensory image, phil, not a visual one.

mary rosenblum

Remember, your description comes from inside your POV...not from an outside watcher.

mary rosenblum

Sweat prickled her underarms...

mary rosenblum

we can't SEE liquid prickle. That is a feeling...so is 'popped out'...

sande

this may sound stupid but do you use quotations marks?

mary rosenblum

Not stupid at all, sande! Once upon a time...decades ago..yes, people did use "" to show thought.

mary rosenblum

Not any more.

mary rosenblum

In my opinion, the best way to do it is to punctuate it the way you punctuate any sentence...no italic as few 'thought' tags as you can use...

mary rosenblum

and make sure it's clear from context that this is thought.

forest elf

I had a character say some angry things to her phone as she slammed it back on the receiver after an infuriating conversation with a jerk....

mary rosenblum

That works, forest!

mary rosenblum

We do talk out loud to ourselves...

mary rosenblum

That's fine.

mary rosenblum

Phil, it didn't come to me as a question...

mary rosenblum

but to answer you...

mary rosenblum

no, you cannot use an apostrophe to show thought.

mary rosenblum

It does get used to indicate a brief and sudden change of tone. You know that's really a 'cute' look. She smirked.

mary rosenblum

But many publishers won't use them even for that...

mary rosenblum

so I wouldnt get into the habit of relying on them.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. Today we're talking about non narrative description. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

When you write description, ask yourself where you need to be standing in order to see that image.

mary rosenblum

In third or first person, it should be -- inside your character's head!

mary rosenblum

Which makes character description REALLY tough.

mary rosenblum

Anne had a delicate face, green eyes, and curly red hair.

mary rosenblum

Where do we have to stand in order to see that?

mary rosenblum

Outside the character.

mary rosenblum

So we are violating POV here.

mary rosenblum

Can you do that from INSIDE the character and Anne's POV?

mary rosenblum

Yeah, but not nearly that simply!

mary rosenblum

Anne brushed her hair back impatiently, envying Becky her straight black crop. She hated curls and she hated red hair even more.

mary rosenblum

We

mary rosenblum

We'll have to sneak in that delicate face and green eyes another way or not at all...

mary rosenblum

you can't always include every detail you WANT to include, you know.

mary rosenblum

This is a hard concept for many new writers to realize...

mary rosenblum

but the story comes first. No matter how much you love that detail, if it doesn't fit in this story, you really need to leave it out.

sande

How much thought is too much thought? two lines? four lines?

mary rosenblum

Sande, there is no 'standard' like that...

mary rosenblum

but if you find yourself doing mostly thought..

mary rosenblum

this might be a time when first person will work better for you.

mary rosenblum

I had a story, "Skin Deep' published in Asimov's recently and it was in first person...

mary rosenblum

mainly because the story is very internal, and it would have been mostly thought.

mary rosenblum

So I simply put it into first person.

sweett

Judith ran through the doorway, heart pounding as her breath vanished. Charles should be here. Looking to the left, Judith buckled at the heaving body on the floor. Would this work?

mary rosenblum

It's good, sweet. I'd leave out the 'Looking to the left'...

mary rosenblum

Judith is in a state of high emotion...would she be aware of that ...it's rather a narrative pause.

mary rosenblum

Charles should be here. The heaving body on the floor buckled her knees.

mary rosenblum

We'll assume she SAW it.

mary rosenblum

And if you need to tell us that it is to her left...if that is important.

mary rosenblum

She looked left. And buckled at the heaving body on the floor.

mary rosenblum

All I did was make that 'she looked left' sound choppy and fragmented the way her thoughts probably are, now.

t green

as for character description, my main character's eye color doesn't come into play until the last third of the book... is this too late to mention eye-color? or will it 'shock' the reader too much to discover her eye color might not be what they thought it was?

mary rosenblum

Yeah, it's pretty late, green...

mary rosenblum

Why bring it up at all? If your readers gave her blue eyes, does it matter?

mary rosenblum

If the eye color DOES matter, then yeah, I'd go back and figure out how to show 'em to us early on in the book.

t green

it has to do with a medallion and a prophecy

mary rosenblum

Definitely give us her eye color early on then, t.

mary rosenblum

That is known as a 'plant'.

mary rosenblum

When you need to bring up an important fact later in the story...

mary rosenblum

you need to 'plant' it early on.

t green

can you suggest a way without using mirrors?

mary rosenblum

Sure. Mirrors are the obvious cliche!

mary rosenblum

You can have her compare herself to someone... (he had green eyes, the same shade as hers)...

mary rosenblum

or let someone remark on it... 'You have the greenest eyes I've ever seen, Susie."

mary rosenblum

Or you can sneak that mirror in in the form of a window in a lighted room after dark (reflects quite well) or a pool of water...or what have you.

roe

you can have another character say something about the color of her eyes

mary rosenblum

Yep.

ladybird39pm

ask/ What is this mean using mirrors?

mary rosenblum

Most readers recognize that mirror as a device to simply show us the character...

mary rosenblum

again, it's like pulling away the curtain to show the audience the pupeteer back behind the curtain pulling the strings! You don't want to do that..

mary rosenblum

you want the reader to see real people not puppets.

mbvoelker

Characters who tease or insult your MC are useful for some description -- especially if those physical traits aren't normal.

mary rosenblum

They are indeed.

mary rosenblum

I often have to invent a new 'secondary character' who will feed us information by interacting with the MC.

mary rosenblum

Never be afraid to make big changes in your story.

mary rosenblum

It's the final version that matters, not the first draft!

mary rosenblum

Once you get the technique of non narrative description it's simple...

mary rosenblum

and of all the writing tools you master...

mary rosenblum

it will do the most to really bring your story to life...

mary rosenblum

It is a huge dividing line between a story that is no different than the others in the slush pile...

mary rosenblum

and one that really stands out and grabs the editor's attention.

mary rosenblum

It's really worth working on.

mary rosenblum

Start by using your 'find' feature on your word processor to look for 'was' 'is' 'are' 'were' and get rid of them.

mary rosenblum

Every one if you can...nearly all if you can't. :-) Rewrite that sentence or even three or four so that you can convey the same info without the 'to be' verb.

mary rosenblum

That will help you a lot right there. It's a great start.

mary rosenblum

I took a graduate writing course at our local University one year, long ago.

mary rosenblum

The first exercise was a two page descriptive piece without a SINGLE to be verb in it.

mary rosenblum

That was NOT easy!

mary rosenblum

Try it. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's a great exercise.

roe

great contest idea when you have more time

mary rosenblum

Hmm...maybe we need a Christmas contest...

mary rosenblum

I'll definitely think about that.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour...hmmm...

mary rosenblum

stay tuned for a Christmas contest...a 'twas the night before christmas piece with NO to be verbs...

mary rosenblum

If you sign up for the email updates, you'll get the notice of what I decide to do and when.

gskearney

ARRGH! As if I didn't have enough to do??

mary rosenblum

Come on gary, do a SF one...

mary rosenblum

And of course, you can all send your submissions to storyhouse.com afterward. :-)

mary rosenblum

They make GOOD coffee!

bobbi

I will try it one more time. Would this work? She stood barely five foot tow with delicate features, emerald eyes, ;her beauty natural and unassuming.

mary rosenblum

Well, this is very nice description, bobbi...

mary rosenblum

but where do you have to stand to see her? Outside her, right? IF she is your POV character, this is a problem...

mary rosenblum

it puts us OUTSIDE her POV. You chould ...

mary rosenblum

could show her height to us as she stretches to reach a cup on the top shelf...

mary rosenblum

or has to ask her boyfriend to get it down. Her boyfriend could tell her how her face is so delicate...

mary rosenblum

he's almost afraid to touch it... someone can remark on her emerald eyes, or she can think that her eyes are just as green as her friend Miranda's....

mary rosenblum

That keeps us INSIDE her POV....

mary rosenblum

Well, I'll post the transcript of this in Writing Craft: Forum Transcript, all.

mary rosenblum

See you on Friday...

mary rosenblum

we may work more with this topic for our After Hours...

mary rosenblum

maybe something hands on again.

speckledorf

Good forum...now to apply...sigh.

mary rosenblum

Don't be discouraged. It's harder than it seems....once you 'get' it, as I said, it's a snap. Getting it however, takes some work! But DO work on it...

mary rosenblum

because it will really make a HUGE difference in your work.

mary rosenblum

See you on Friday...I think we will do a hands on...

mary rosenblum

Bye all!

 

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