Forum Transcripts

Non Narrative Description: Hands On Workshop 12/3/04

Event start time:

Fri Dec 03 19:06:05 2004

Event end time:

Fri Dec 03 20:45:15 2004



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all! I hope you had a great Thanksgiving!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing one of our hands on workshops -- on non narrative description. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

There was a lot of interest in our Tuesday Forum on non narrative description...

mary rosenblum

and it can be very tough to 'get', although once you do figure it out, it's easy to do all the time.

mary rosenblum

So I thought we'd do one of our hands on sessions, since seeing it done is often the best way to understand what exactly it is.

mary rosenblum

One common misconception by the way...you can't DO non narrative description in first person...

mary rosenblum

first person by definition is a narrated prose. The first person main character is telling the story!

mary rosenblum

We'll do another Forum on 'direct' versus 'narrative' first person...but that's another topic! :-)

mary rosenblum

Non narrative description is something you use in third person in order to remove any sense of 'story telling' from the prose...

mary rosenblum

so that the readers can immerse themselves in the story and begin to live the adventure along with the characters.

mary rosenblum

It is the foundation technique of 'show, don't tell'.

mary rosenblum

And if you can do it well, it will make your story absolutely stand out in the slush pile...

mary rosenblum

because very few novice writers do it well at all.

mary rosenblum

So it's worth working on.

mary rosenblum

I have some examples that were emailed to me ahead of time. So let's look at our first one. I have to post it in pieces so if you see numbers after a section, that means it's...

mary rosenblum

say, part one of three (1/3)

mary rosenblum

Alan was a blacksmith, a merchant, not to mention a

Proud of his ability to

 

presumed that the poor,

 

were just lazy. But that

 

Now, there simply were no jobs.

 

in the small midwest county had any

 

do anything. Even the land

 

gather the ripening

 

 

 

 

 

mary rosenblum

Running his fingers through his thinning hair, he

He felt like he was falling down

 

A wave of dark

 

I can't go on any more,

 

once, but always managed to

 

depression now, not happy with

 

and

 

the demolition of

 

 

 

 

 

mary rosenblum

He picked at the callouses on his right hand. He

older children into the

 

Called 'picking on

 

to keep half of what you

 

went to the owner. His

 

camp for a while, which

 

to feed, but even then

 

gossamer thread on most days.

 

some turnips he

 

cabin and peaches picked from a

 

spilled that morning

 

supply. He did not know if

 

to get them through the

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

mary rosenblum

C Donnell's question was how to make this piece with no action, 'non narrative'. well, there's not much you can do with this scene without ADDING action.

mary rosenblum

Our character is merely thinking about all the backstory that the author wants us to know...and readers will realize this.

mary rosenblum

So what can C do with this?

mary rosenblum

Well, if I were you, I'd think up some kind of action. He's a blacksmith, right? A cook. A singer...

mary rosenblum

So bring in that big bay carthorse and let him bang away on that shoe.

mary rosenblum

As it sizzles in the water tub and and clucks reprovingly to the restless horse...

mary rosenblum

he can tell it some of his problems...OR...he talks to the old farmer who brought it in.

mary rosenblum

In their dialogue we'll get some hints that he's in trouble, as the old farmer tells him he can't pay him until next week...

mary rosenblum

and we see the blacksmith's reaction. You can give us some of these thoughts, put some of the backstory into dialogue, but hang it all on the interesting actions..

mary rosenblum

of shoeing the big horse. Give us the sensory setting...the smithy, the smell of the charcoal smoke, horse sweat, and burned hoof as he fits the shoe.

mary rosenblum

You're really telling us a lot all at once right now, and that is a common problem for novice writers.

mary rosenblum

We don't NEED to know it all now.

mary rosenblum

We can know that he's strapped for cash...that he's a hard worker (the old farmer can say so)...

mary rosenblum

that there's no food at home (when the old farmer offers to pay in pumpkins, he's thrilled with even that much food! )...

mary rosenblum

Now you don't have to use these particular details, but they are ways in which you can convey a few bits of necessary information...

mary rosenblum

We can find out about the kids in the field (the farmer has hired 'em that way) and the depression through the conversation.

mary rosenblum

The way the blacksmith handles his tools, his behavior with the horse will all help reveal his mood of despair...

mary rosenblum

as he works. That is the non narrative description part. As he leans his head against the horse's shoulder and his shoulders slump..

mary rosenblum

we'll see a defeated man.

catydorr

The dirt road along the river jarred off through the bare harvested field. Marci could see the village buildings ahead. Once so beautiful, she thought. The church spire had stood proud and gracious, jutting into the sky. Now, partially gone, it stood a tribute to four years of war bitterly waged on this soil. Bombed out buildings, pockmarked streets, the market once so bustling. Farmers just beginning to bring produce to sell again.

mary rosenblum

Nice bit of backstory here. There are some things you can do to make this less narrative.

mary rosenblum

Oh...and I'd use veered rather than jarred...or jogged even... Jarred does mean bumped to most people. :-)

mary rosenblum

For example, I'd leave out the 'church spire had stood proud and gracious." Marci thinks it was once so beautiful and we know what a spire looks like...

mary rosenblum

so I'd let her look at the ruins. 'Once so beautiful, Marci thought. The timbers of the shattered spire pierced the gray sky. Bombed out buildings and pockmarked streets made her want to cry.

mary rosenblum

Telling us about the four years of war is your voice, caty, and not our POV character. Does she really look at that spire and think, It stands a tribute to four years of war bitterly wages on this soil' ?

mary rosenblum

But if these are not her words they are yours.

mary rosenblum

This is what makes it hard to learn non narrative description...

mary rosenblum

we REALLY want the reader to get these little gems of information and you can't be SURE the reader gets 'em when you don't tell them. :-)

mary rosenblum

But you know what? The more you do this, and the more reader feedback you get, the more you realize that readers are pretty sharp and you're better at conveying information than you think.

mary rosenblum

As to the market...

mary rosenblum

I would let her exchange a few words with a farmer selling cabbages. "G'morning Mr. Brown'. "Aye, it is, and did you see? Ten of us here today." He chuckled as he stacked fat cabbages into a neat pyramid... "

mary rosenblum

"I hear the Mayor plans to rebuild the Town Hall next spring'...

mary rosenblum

That sort of thing will give us the sense of being in the market and give us a lot of information as she makes her way down the street, too.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing one of our hands on workshops -- on non narrative description. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

t green

could he be talking to his wife at the breakfast table?

mary rosenblum

T was this about the blacksmith, I assume?

mary rosenblum

Well, he could be, but only if his wife didn't know these things.

mary rosenblum

'as we all know' dialogue is something to be wary of.

tory

Mary, Are you just showing us alternatives here? Is there really anything wrong with Caty's 4 lines of description if that is what someone returning to this town after years of war might see?

mary rosenblum

There is Tory, and the difference is between selling and not selling.

mary rosenblum

Essentially narrative prose is a lot weaker than non narrative prose.

mary rosenblum

If your story is very powerful, you can get away with it.

mary rosenblum

But if your story is NOT tremendously powerful, or if your narrative voice is bland...well, it simply is not likely to compell a reader.

mary rosenblum

And yes, you can find tons of narrative prose out there...

mary rosenblum

but I guess the question is, do you want to write as strongly and powerfully as you can, or do you just want to sell a couple of stories?

catydorr

Mary this may sound silly-but what is the difference between narrative and non-narrative description--could you give an example

mary rosenblum

Sure, Caty.

mary rosenblum

Anne Marie walked into town. The village was small, and not very prosperous. Ever since the Departure, many of the houses had stood empty, inhabited only by rats. Stray dogs scavenged in packs in the deserted streets, dangerous at night. The wind blew down the empty streets with the sound of a thousand sighs.

mary rosenblum

That's narrative. The author is telling us about the town. It's a nice haunting narrative and there is nothing wrong with writing in narrative...

mary rosenblum

as long as the narrative voice is strong enough to carry the story or the plot is strong enough not to need characters.

mary rosenblum

BUT..if you are writing a character driven story...

mary rosenblum

narrative is not going to benefit your story, strength wise...

mary rosenblum

and most people, to be honest, write weak narrative.

mary rosenblum

It is the difference between standing on a Hawaiian beach and listening to your neighbor tell you about standing on a Hawaiian beach.

mary rosenblum

If your neighbor is a great story teller and HER version of that beach leaves you laughing hysterically, that's fine...

mary rosenblum

but if the beach is what is the most important part ...being there is usually a whole lot nicer than hearing about it. So here's the non narrative verson of the above:

mary rosenblum

Anne Marie slowed as she reached the first houses. The empty windows gaped at her, full of darkness and the scuttle of rats. She hesitated, groping for the gun Webster had given her. Dogs? She held her breath, heard only the wind. She shivered. Sounded like a thousand sighs, like ghosts.

mary rosenblum

She doesn't think about the Departure because she lives with it. She doesn't think about the feral dogs in detail, just clutches her weapon.

catydorr

so non narrative comes fromthe character's pov? through the characters eyes? Thank you

mary rosenblum

Exactly.

mary rosenblum

What you do is simply to filter everything that goes on through the character's perceptions.

tory

so in the non narrative we experience Anne Marie. In the other we just see the town.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, tory.

mary rosenblum

Because we are looking through Anne Marie's eyes.

mary rosenblum

This is what non narrative description does.

mary rosenblum

It puts us literally into the character's head so that we BECOME that character in terms of what we see/hear/smell/taste.

mary rosenblum

And it makes us perceive the story as if we are living it.

mary rosenblum

It is what Orson Scott Card calls 'deep penetration' POV

mary rosenblum

Which is a good name for it.

tory

Is the difference between narrative and non narrative prose dialogue?

mary rosenblum

Not necessarily.

mary rosenblum

You can certainly use dialogue in order to convey the information that you need the reader to get, but it in itself doesn't make it non narrative.

mary rosenblum

The key is to ask yourself: is this what my character would see/hear?

mary rosenblum

Let's look at Anne Marie again.

mary rosenblum

Anne Marie walked into town. Now this CAN be from inside her POV...if she has been somewhere else and decides to walk into town.

mary rosenblum

But then we get into the narrative: The village was small and empty...and so forth. Would our character, who clearly lives around here, think that?

mary rosenblum

That is the perspective of someone who doesn't know anything about this place...would SHE think about it right now? She is worried about feral dogs...she certainly knows that people have left...

mary rosenblum

so this is clearly author speaking to reader.

mary rosenblum

But in the second example, we don't learn that directly, but we can guess from the empty houses and her clutch of the gun that the village is empty and the dogs are dangerous.

gskearney

Funny, you should bring up Scott. I was just re-reading the start of Ender's Game to see if he did things the way you describe, and that's exactly it. He's certainly successful and one of my favorites, so anything I can learn about his technique is great. --gk

mary rosenblum

He's the one who taught me to do this, gary, and he very nearly despaired because it took me forever to figure out HOW. LOL

mary rosenblum

He's VERY good at it.

mary rosenblum

Let's look at the old It was a dark and stormy night cliche.

mary rosenblum

Jeremiah shielded his face against the slashing rain as he groped his way to the barn through the howling darkness...

mary rosenblum

translation...

mary rosenblum

It was a dark and stormy night.

mary rosenblum

Which one puts you in a scene?

bobbi

please explain dialogue is something to be wary of Thanks

mary rosenblum

Bobbi, I think you're referring to my comment about 'as we all know' dialogue?

mary rosenblum

That is when two characters tell each other something they both know...it sounds VERY phony.

mary rosenblum

The old episodes of Star Trek provide many wonderful examples! :-)

mary rosenblum

'As we know, Captain, we're on our way to Alhambiran to deliver a vital vaccine to the colony world there'.

mary rosenblum

Well, if they all know it, why are they saying that? They aren't...not in the real world.

mary rosenblum

When was the last time you sat down at the dinner table and said, 'As we all know, we're sitting here at the dinner table after a long day raking leaves'...

mary rosenblum

Just make sure that your characters NEED to be saying the things they're saying, that's all. :-)

tory

Clueless here, Mary. Is this an example you can work with? At her townhouse she dropped off the box and picked upt the bags she'd thrown together the night before. By one o'clock she was driving south on I-95, moon roof open, her long hair glying in the wind. Not bad for someboyd who most mornings can't decide what to wear. Sure hope this isn't a mistake. Well, too late now. She stopped in Richmond for gas, the tank still half full; she wanted to "make sure." She shuddered at the thought of being stranded as she paid for a bottle of water and bag of almonds. She drove hard and with a purpose, wanting to get to her destination before dark if she could. She couldn't.

mary rosenblum

This is fine, tory. You give us a strong backbone of action ...dropping off the box, picking up the bags, stopping for gas, buying food, driving hard...

mary rosenblum

and on that backbone, you give us the needed information in words that sound like thoughts rather than a narration.

mary rosenblum

Not bad for somebody who couldn't decide what to wear most mornings...

mary rosenblum

That's her thought, not your words. Or it sounds enough like her thought that we'll accept it, rather than hearing your voice.

mary rosenblum

Non narrative is really sleight of hand.

mary rosenblum

Of course you ARE narrating the story as author! But you make that description seem to be the character's own thoughts and sensory input..and we believe it.

mary rosenblum

So we begin to feel as if we are living the story with that character.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing one of our hands on workshops -- on non narrative description. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

arfelin

Sunday afternoon and the Red Wings were kicking butt at THE JOE. A frenzy of wind and snow howled outside the comfort zone of Fred's livingroom. Myrna stomped in through the front door veiled in white after blowing snow for the last two hours. Sipping a beer he watched her pull off her wet layers and spotted something on her he had never seen before--a waist. She walked instead of waddled towards him. Her crisp wintry smell cut through his smoke. "Need another beer before I put the chicken in the oven?" she asked, scraping his cheek with her cracked lips.

mary rosenblum

Nice scene, arfelin.

mary rosenblum

I'd change a few things here, but not a lot. Once Joe starts looking at Myrna we're solidly in his POV as he noticed that she has changed.

mary rosenblum

I would fix a couple of things up front... That's your voice in the beginning...Does Fred think... 'that frenzy of wind and snow is howling outside the comfort zone of my living room?'

mary rosenblum

Probably not. :-)

mary rosenblum

He might pump his fist as Barrymore intercepts and goes for a first down...

mary rosenblum

maybe stare out the window as the commercial comes on and think, 'nasty storm'...

mary rosenblum

A lot of the time, we want to describe the scene in a lyrical language that the character would never use...

mary rosenblum

And that is exactly what you do when you're doing a narrative...

mary rosenblum

a narrative piece IS in your voice, you use your words to describe everything that is going on...

mary rosenblum

BUT the narrative needs to be the main strength of the story.

mary rosenblum

Not the characters.

mary rosenblum

But if the story is character driven and Fred is our POV, then he sees 'nasty storm', rather than a frenzy of wind and snow...not a frenzy of

mary rosenblum

because he doesnt' think in those words. :-)

mary rosenblum

Well..he doesn't seem to in this brief glimpse, at least. :-)

bobbi

Is there anyway to save these workshops to review later?

mary rosenblum

You bet, Bobbi. I post them to Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts afterward. :-) You can copy and save them if you want.

ducky

This is off topic, but it's bugging me. Re: the Holiday contest. Can you do an example of say, a sentence using the 'to be' verbs and the same sentence changed to eliminate them?

mary rosenblum

Sure, ducky.

mary rosenblum

For one thing...take a look at the 'dark and stormy night' example. That's exactly what I did there...

mary rosenblum

and if you suddenly think maybe there's a connection between the 'to be' verbs and non narrative description...aha! You're right. :-)

mary rosenblum

There were three lighted Christmas trees outside the Miller's house.

mary rosenblum

Three small Christmas trees twinkled and gleamed outside the Miller house.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing one of our hands on workshops -- on non narrative description. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

ducky

It's the difference between a photo and a video, right? You animated the landscape.

mary rosenblum

Exactly, ducky. It requires you to use a verb that 'shows' the reader something.

mary rosenblum

One thing that is not particularly obvious to most novice writers...

mary rosenblum

the information, the idea, is not the most important part of the story, most of the time.

mary rosenblum

Information on its own is not compelling. It is compelling when it becomes experience.

mary rosenblum

Which is where 'show, don't tell' comes in.

mary rosenblum

You make the reader believe that he/she is experiencing that information for himself/herself.

mary rosenblum

Here's another example:

mary rosenblum

She was so caught up in the sights and sounds around her she didn't even realize she was near the local high school. Martina came out of the wooded path and onto the sidewalk right near the parking lot entrance. She no longer heard birds singing, but she thought she heard crying coming from somewhere near the school. The closer she got to the parking lot the

the corner entering the parking lot, and looked over towards the teachers lot where the sound was coming from, but there were no cars, and no one milling around. Martina decided to sprint over and see if there was an injured cat with a litter of kittens. The closer Martina got the the end of the parking lot the louder the cries got, but Martina saw nothing. 2/3

 

 

 

mary rosenblum

this is only the middle section of a very long piece, but we're almost out of time...

mary rosenblum

This is mostly action and we're following Martina as she looks for what is making the sounds here.

mary rosenblum

Me, I'd leave the first sentence out...who is thinking this?

mary rosenblum

You can let martina show us that. Martina emerged from the woods and blinked. The school! How had she come this far?

pan

is it ok to say "she said angrily" or would it be better...

pan

to say "she said with her fists clenched"

mary rosenblum

If you show us those clenched fists, pan, then we KNOW she's angry...

mary rosenblum

and you don't have to tell us. :-)

mary rosenblum

And actually, you don't need the 'she said'...

mary rosenblum

You're using an action tag.

mary rosenblum

"Stop that." She clenched her fists.

mary rosenblum

Who said 'stop that'? 'She'. So you don't need, she said.

mary rosenblum

Action tags are a great help with non narrative description.

galatyne

Regarding those holiday shorts... do we have to keep the passive verbs out of character dialogue as well? Ban them from speaking a 'to be' verb?

mary rosenblum

Oh, sorry. Of course you don't have to keep them out of dialogue, if you use dialogue.

mary rosenblum

People DO talk like that. :-)

mary rosenblum

Here's another example.

mary rosenblum

Gravity wrestled her champagne bottle to the floor. Still in one piece,

wicker table between us. Mother swayed and hummed

 

"I use to be Daddy's sweet...tart till he start

 

She hiccupped the greenery of her eyes

 

timbered foreward.

 

chair to catch her. She toppled me onto my back. My

 

I hollered for our housekeeper. "Aino!"

 

I pushed the words through my weighted lungs.

 

 

 

 

 

mary rosenblum

It's a great example of direct first person, arfelin...But as I said at the beginning of this, non narrative description is really a third person POV technique.

mary rosenblum

I'll do a forum on first person, but his is what I call direct...vivid and as if it is happening in front of us. Nice scene. :-)

mary rosenblum

Marsha

into the phone. "How could you be so stupid?

 

the room putting a gouge in the wall. Another blunder and now Judy was dead. Vince was going to pay for that. At least he had taken that smart mouthed son of her’s out of commission for a while if not permanently.

 

property soon, he was going to lose everything. It was getting harder to put off the investors he had convinced to back the venture. They were threatening to withdraw their support within a month if he couldn’t move the deal forward.

 

 

 

mary rosenblum

Well, we only have the phone action and then it's all thought.

mary rosenblum

I would add a bit more action to this. The only description we have here is the phone goughing the wall and that's nice non narrative description all right. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'd break up that long thought with him pacing, picking up the yammering phone, pouring a stiff drink, what have you...

mary rosenblum

She was excited! This was the first day of her new job. Her supervisor gave

She finished it accurately and completely and then

 

in its place. She again completed

 

it to her supervisor. "Don't work so quickly or

 

can accomplish more and give us more work to do,"

 

 

 

a minute, but only for a minute because she knew she

 

She was going to do her best, whatever the

 

coworker, Peggy, was often up walking

 

workers. After Adele had been on the job for

 

by her work cubicle. "How can you stand to sit

 

day?" 1/2

 

 

 

mary rosenblum

The start of this piece could read like narrative or like non narrative description. If you break this up with action, then it seems like her thoughts.

mary rosenblum

She was excited. Adele sat down at the keyboard. The first day of her new job and her supervisor had given her her first assignment. She began to type, tongue clamped between her teeth. Pleased with her accuracy, she finished it and marched into Mr. Rupert's office to delier it. He smiled at her and handed her another. Julie scowled at her as she returned to her desk. "Don't work so quickly..."

mary rosenblum

By adding glimpses of action, this sounds less 'told' and more like her thoughts as she works. I moved up Julie's scowl to her first return with a new assignment...

mary rosenblum

So that the action predominates rather than the long, running monologue.

mary rosenblum

The main way to improve is to simply look at each sentence in a scene..

mary rosenblum

Is this how my character would say this? Is this how he/she would see this? Would she think that? Would he notice this?

mary rosenblum

You can convey less information in non narrative description, you make the reader to the work of figuring out what is going on while you supply the clues...

mary rosenblum

but guess what? In the real world, we DO figure out what is going on from things we hear, see and so forth!

mary rosenblum

You are mimicking reality!

mary rosenblum

Well, thanks for coming all. Judging by the contest questions, I'm going to get an avalanch!

mary rosenblum

Do come to our Sunday casual chat, right here on Sunday, same time same place.

ducky

Yep, you are going to get buried as if you were in a Rocky Mountain blizzard. :-) Thanks, Mary

mary rosenblum

Yeah, I know it! Oh well, it's IS winter after all...avalanch season!

tory

Thanks again, Mary. Very helpful--I think Caty and I finally get it! (In theory, anyway!)

mary rosenblum

Don't feel badly if you don't quite get it yet. It is a LOT harder to figure out than it seems once you HAVE figured it out. Then you simply do it all the time from habit because it's easy. :-)

tory

Maybe another hands on woill be beneficial?

mary rosenblum

Oh I'll definitely do one again. It's the foundation of show don't tell and worth repeating.

mary rosenblum

Good night all!

mary rosenblum

See you Sunday !

mary rosenblum

Lil-duv go ahead and ask your question.

mary rosenblum

I'm still here. :-)

mary rosenblum

I think your spam filter is eating it lil-duv...

mary rosenblum

there should be a way to tell your spam filter to allow it through...

mary rosenblum

What is your email address lil?

mary rosenblum

I would try a different address if you have more than one.

mary rosenblum

That shouldn't trigger the serve list 'anti spam' list... I'd try your other addresses..

mary rosenblum

one should work!

 

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