Forum Transcripts

Plot 8/30/05

Event start time:

Tue Aug 30 12:09:40 2005

Event end time:

Tue Aug 30 13:31:27 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all...

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a great weekend.

mary rosenblum

Hard to believe that Labor Day is coming up this weekend.

mary rosenblum

Where did the summer go?

mary rosenblum

I'll be up in Seattle at Cascadia Con this long weekend...

mary rosenblum

this is a big SF/fantasy convention. Lots of publishers and editors there...I'll see if I can't snag some interesting guests.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about plot. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about plot in general today.

mary rosenblum

We haven't discussed it in some time, and I find a lot of new LR students have a hard time with the archetecture of their first story or two...

mary rosenblum

and when you get into novel length work, it becomes even more complex as you balance main plot with subplots or work with parallel plot construction.

mary rosenblum

Plot is the skeleton of story, in a way.

mary rosenblum

Generally, it is based on a conflict and a resolution.

mary rosenblum

The MC has a problem and by the end of the story, he/she has tried to solve that problem and either succeeded or failed to do so.

mary rosenblum

Character change is an important part of plotting.

mary rosenblum

How is the character different at the end of the story? How has he/she changed?

mary rosenblum

A lot of novice writers create what I call a 'reactive' plot.

mary rosenblum

The MC faces external dangers and is forced to deal with them.

mary rosenblum

He crashes in the jungle and has to survive. She is stranded in an enemy country and has to find her way back to safe territory.

mary rosenblum

Each case presents an obvious conflict...a threat to the MC.

mary rosenblum

They can have many dramatic encounters as they return to safety...but they are REACTING to the external pressures of those dangers.

mary rosenblum

If they don't change internally, the plot will tend to feel thin to readers.

mary rosenblum

What is missing here is the internal conflict and resolution.

mary rosenblum

Each of these characters has an internal conflict...a problem, a flaw...and in the course of surviving those external pressures...

mary rosenblum

each of those characters will come to a realization, a personal insight, something...that makes them a slightly different person at the end of the adventure.

mary rosenblum

That coupling of an external pressure with an internal pressure makes for a MUCH stronger plot.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about plot. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

yoda

i'm new to lrwg and am signing on here for the first time.

mary rosenblum

Hi, Yoda. You're doing just fine, and welcome. :-)

mary rosenblum

That internal plot is what gives most novice writers trouble...

mary rosenblum

it's less obvious than the attacking jaguar or enemies in the street.

lore alley

Unless you mean for your character to merely react because that is all he/she is capable of doing. Russian literature deals with a lot of characters like that. They don't change because they CAN'T.

mary rosenblum

But in those cases, there is that realization that they cannot change....those stories tend to be driven by their internal plots...

mary rosenblum

as the characters struggle...and fail...to overcome the flaws that drive them to their destinies.

mary rosenblum

And they are coupled with external conflicts and resolutions, too.

mary rosenblum

Don't forget...failure to succeed in solving the problem is just as much a valid resolution as success.

yoda

how do i send a question, jsut curious

mary rosenblum

You just did, yoda. :-)

janecj333

Do you find the kind of plot, where the characters are actively seeking a remedy to a problem (like the orig. Star Trek), the much better alternative than characters running from danger or desperate to return home (Star Trek Voyager)? I always thought this was a fatal flaw of Voyager

mary rosenblum

Depends on the reader, janec, but what you find in the second type of external plot you mentioned is that is highly reactive...

mary rosenblum

your characters have no choice but to deal with the plot pressures or they die.

mary rosenblum

They are forced to react.

mary rosenblum

If they choose to become involved, they had the choice not to.

mary rosenblum

Both types of plot are valid.

mary rosenblum

You can have the person who chooses to go to a war zone with Doctors Without Borders and then gets in trouble...

mary rosenblum

and you can have the family caught in a disaster that struggles to survive.

mary rosenblum

They both work.

mary rosenblum

In each case, you can have the external plot, and you have also the internal plot...

mary rosenblum

the MC and his/her flaw or problem that will create a second dramatic arc as it comes to a climax and is resolved...or not resolved as the case may be.

mary rosenblum

You can create four very different stories with that pair of examples, simply by varying the importance of each conflict/resolution.

mary rosenblum

The disaster struggle that is powered by the internal conflict will be different from the same story powered by the external plot.

mary rosenblum

Generally one or the other will be the stronger of the two.

mary rosenblum

We tend to call the stories where the external plot is stronger 'plot driven' stories...

mary rosenblum

and those where the internal plot is stronger 'character driven' stories...

mary rosenblum

but they are, of course, both driven by 'plot'. :-) So that's a bit misleading

mary rosenblum

But then, terms in the universe of writing are a bit fluid.

mary rosenblum

When you have a story idea and you are thinking about coming up with a story...

mary rosenblum

think 'problem'.

mary rosenblum

What problem will my MC confront? And what is broken in him/her that needs fixing? How can the resolution of my external plot fix it?

mary rosenblum

If you can answer all three questions, you should have a nice, solid plot with a good internal/external balance.

lore alley

How do you balance subplots with your main plot? Does your main plot have to be stronger? In my accident story, the accident and resulting injuries is a subplot but I present it in the first couple scenes. The main plot (which is internal) doesn't get presented till later.

mary rosenblum

Yes, your main plot, by definition, should be stronger...ie more important to the story.

mary rosenblum

And if you're talking a long piece of work...novelette, novella, novel...you need to look at the whole in order to determine what the central conflict is.

mary rosenblum

And that's the determining factor...what is the conflict that is the most powerful to your MC? What has the greatest consequence?

mary rosenblum

That is your main plot.

janecj333

I hate to use films as a main example, but the same holds true, I think, for the plots of Alien and Aliens, also Terminator and Terminator 2; the first is a protag. caught up in circumstances and a weaker movie. The second is a character determined to save someone/solve a problem, and a much stronger film

mary rosenblum

In this case they are good examples, jane... and if you think about it...

mary rosenblum

what do we admire more?

mary rosenblum

The person who escapes from the fire, or the person who rushes in to save the old man in the back bedroom?

lore alley

I guess I should have asked, How do you make your main plot stronger? :-)

gwanny

Mary, my MC is middle of the road, so to speak. It is the strong forces too the right and left of her that pulll her in two...her resolve remains in tact...it is the 2 secondary characters that change the most...is that do-able?

mary rosenblum

I posted these two questions together because they work nicely in tandem here.

mary rosenblum

That is a good question and it's not always obvious when you're starting out.

mary rosenblum

Let's take gwanny's example here. We have a character who doesn't seem to have much of a serious conflict here on the face of it...

mary rosenblum

she remains the same while others change around her.

mary rosenblum

BUT...does that mean it's a weak internal plot?

mary rosenblum

Not at all.

mary rosenblum

The strength of that plot...the internal plot in this case...depends on what the MC has at stake.

mary rosenblum

If she just goes about her business and doesn't change because it's just a lot of effort to change...

mary rosenblum

or she is just too dumb or stubborn to see any other way to behave...

mary rosenblum

it's probably not a strong internal plot.

mary rosenblum

But if she has a lot to lose by NOT changing...

mary rosenblum

she risks her lover, her physical self, her friends...

mary rosenblum

and she doesn't change because her beliefs matter...

mary rosenblum

then this non-change is strong. She may not outwardly change...

mary rosenblum

but she has reaffirmed that her beliefs are as important as she thought...even when seriously challenged.

mary rosenblum

So we do have character change in a sense...she has been tested and decided yep, I DO believe this, and I will not yield.

mary rosenblum

It is what is at stake that makes the main plot the main plot.

mary rosenblum

And also, btw, determines the main character.

mary rosenblum

Scout is the narrator in To Kill a Mockingbird but not the main character.

mary rosenblum

Her brother has much more at stake in that story than she does.

mary rosenblum

So if your main plot seems week...find a way to make success or failure a much bigger issue for your main character, lore.

bengalrose

What about Forest Gump? Everyone else changes while the MC remains more or less unchanged...and yet we are moved by what happens around Forest. He unwhittingily changes everyone he meets.

mary rosenblum

Movies do not tend to make good examples for prose fiction, bengal.

mary rosenblum

And since I never watched FG, I can't help you out here. :-)

lore alley

So if I show that the character has more at stake in relation to the internal conflict than to the external conflict, the internal conflict will automatically be stronger?

mary rosenblum

Yes, Lore.

mary rosenblum

Although some of that depends on the nature of your external plot.

mary rosenblum

If you have a very powerful external drama, it may simply carry the story and the internal plot will support it.

mary rosenblum

Nothing wrong with a story where the external plot is more powerful...

mary rosenblum

It just feels flat if you ONLY have one or the other.

seigfried007

what about this: the honorable leader of a large group must decide to what depths he's willing to stoop to meet their material needs (internal) after those resources are stripped from his people (external)

mary rosenblum

That is a classic plot and has worked over and over again in many forms, seig...

mary rosenblum

you have the ruler who has to compromise his/her personal values in order to do the best for the group he/she leads...

mary rosenblum

and that can power a very strong internal plot AND create a villain we cannot love but cannot hate either.

fiction_scribe

Mary, btw Forrest Gump was a novel before it was a movie

mary rosenblum

Could be.

mary rosenblum

Didn't read it. :-)

mary rosenblum

Can't help you.

janecj333

So much of fiction seems to depend on the MC sort of getting what she wants, a revised success, or adapting to meet the reality that she will not get what she wants.

mary rosenblum

It does, jane.

mary rosenblum

Those are the accepted dramatic forms and readers like them so writers write them. :-)

mary rosenblum

We like to see our beloved POV if not live happily ever after, at least seem to have a positive future...

mary rosenblum

and we are reassured to find out that people who don't get everything they want can still do fine (since we rarely get everything WE want).

mary rosenblum

Does that mean you should DO that only? No.

mary rosenblum

Some of the most enduring books don't follow that.

mary rosenblum

Look at To Kill a Mockingbird. Lord of the Flies.

mary rosenblum

Many others.

mary rosenblum

The MC fails to forstall that destiny...

mary rosenblum

the good end doesn't happy.

mary rosenblum

happen...

mary rosenblum

The book is disturbing, but hard to forget.

mary rosenblum

Fiction does many many things...not just one.

mary rosenblum

It entertains, it educates, it warns, it forces us to look at dark places inside of us we'd really rather not see.

lore alley

all Shakespearean tragedy doesn't follow the happy ending formula, at least not for the MC!

mary rosenblum

No kidding! LOL

bengalrose

I remember a short-lived TV series called "Nowhere Man" with a great external conflict. The MC was a photographer who apparently captured some images that weren't supposed be be captured. So one night at a resteraunt he goes to the bathroom and when he comes out his wife is gone and no one recognises him. When he gets home the locks have been changed and another man claiming to be him answers the door. And his wife claims not to recognize him. He has been erased from society. Why? He must piece the clues together and figure out who has done this to him.

mary rosenblum

I remember that series vaguely, bengal...

mary rosenblum

and like another series...The Prisoner..was an endless search for clues...

mary rosenblum

And of course mystery is like that.

mary rosenblum

Rarely does the MC undergo a major personality change ...at least in the series books.

mary rosenblum

Those ARE driven by the external plot to a great degree...

mary rosenblum

and while the MC can grow and change and does in many series, it is secondary to the whodunnit plot.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about plot. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

wolf122

Plot where MC internally fights against external events (i.e. a retired fighter dragged back to battle, etc.)--good internal conflict or overused plot scheme?

mary rosenblum

Well, you still have twin internal and external plot lines, wolff... where your external plot is the 'dragged back into the ring' and your internal is his/her personal reaactions to that pressure.

mary rosenblum

-) And it's been done many times. Overused? Only if your version seems like a copy. There's a reason it has been done many times. :-)

mary rosenblum

Oops...

mary rosenblum

Did that pink thing again. :-)

fiction_scribe

so how do you keep a mystery plot from being flat, espeically in a series

mary rosenblum

That is a real challenge in a long running series, fiction.

mary rosenblum

Many of the good writers, James Lee Burke, Robert Parker, give their books overarching character plots...

mary rosenblum

The MC falls in love, breaks up, becomes a parent, loses a friend, questions his/her beliefs...

mary rosenblum

what have you. But the individual external plot needs to be fresh and gripping. It's hard!

gwanny

Of Mice and Men is a great example of both internal and externally driven plot that ends tragically.

mary rosenblum

Most of Steinbeck fits that, gwanny. :-)

mary rosenblum

Tragic ends can be immensely powerful, but a common misconception by novice writers...

mary rosenblum

is that if you throw in a suicide or a death, your readers will eat out of your hand.

mary rosenblum

Hardly!

mary rosenblum

It is much harder to create a powerful tragic ending than a strong happy end.

mary rosenblum

Readers won't buy it and don't like having their chains jerked.

mary rosenblum

That tragedy has to derive from the character...this is his destiny, he/she has tried to escape it...and for good reasons, he/she cannot.

mary rosenblum

I see a lot of novice stories with that dramatic suicide or death at the end, but without enough reality to make them work.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about plot. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

janecj333

You mentioned the problem that needs to be 'fixed' in the protag. and I wonder if that should be at least as compelling a plot fixture as what needs to be 'fixed' in the villain/antagonist

mary rosenblum

That's an interesting question, jane...

mary rosenblum

Remember...the villain is a villain partly because it does NOT get fixed, and he/she doesn't try to fix it.

mary rosenblum

Let's look at our leader who has to behave as a monster in order to do good for the general population...

mary rosenblum

and look at two ways to plot a story for him.

seigfried007

personally, i think villians oughtta be just as interesting as the MC--internal plotlines and all

mary rosenblum

Well, seig, if they are not as real as your MC and friends...and they often are not nearly as real...

mary rosenblum

then they are cardboard.

mary rosenblum

If we see someone we might conceivably meet in the grocery store...that's scary.

mary rosenblum

If we see someone who is not like any human we have ever met...that's cardboard.

seigfried007

it's easy to label them as bad guys and 'monsters', but they have feelings and dreams otherwise they wouldn't be compelling bad guys

mary rosenblum

And that's what you need to reveal while still making them villains.

mary rosenblum

So let's look at our leader. We'll suppose that this is a stranded colony on another world. (I AM a SF writer after all)...

mary rosenblum

and the world is dangerous. Our leader has to enforce very very strict rules...

mary rosenblum

to keep the majority of the people alive long enough for rescue.

mary rosenblum

And for various external reasons, there is no room for leniency...

mary rosenblum

so he ends up killing dissenters and controlling his group by force.

mary rosenblum

And he knows why, but lots of the others sure don't.

mary rosenblum

You could do it from his POV...so that we get to know him, identify with him even if we don't completely agree with him...

mary rosenblum

and share his distress over what he has to do...

mary rosenblum

In this case, he is a tragic hero. He is destroying himself internally to do the right thing for the group.

mary rosenblum

Put us into the POV of one of the oppressed and we can come to understand waht that leader is up to...

mary rosenblum

but we have a much stronger awareness of the suffering inflicted by him on the group. Our POV's little brother died horribly because of the leader's agenda...

mary rosenblum

and in this one, our leader is the villain. The POV (and we) gain some understanding of his motives and maybe his personal feelings...

mary rosenblum

as he reveals that pain to our POV. But then he kills that little brother anyway.

mary rosenblum

Here, that leader is the villain. A three dimensional villain we can respect...but we still want him dead along with the POV.

mary rosenblum

Plot changes a lot depending on who you POV is.

mary rosenblum

Next time you can't get one to work, try a new POV character.

mary rosenblum

You may find that another character has more at stake.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and we're talking about plot. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

thymebug

what are some of the worst plot cliches to stay away from?

mary rosenblum

don't worry about it too much, thyme.

mary rosenblum

Every plot you come up with has been done multiple times. It's only a cliche if you make it a cliche.

mary rosenblum

And that means it's the same form as say, Romeo and Juliet, and nothing really makes it different.

mary rosenblum

But if your Romeo and Juliet characters are different...say Puerto Rican gang members...wowoo...you have West Side Story and not a cliche.

fiction_scribe

what do you do when your villian is a sadistic sociopath? How do you add dimensions

mary rosenblum

YOu don't.

mary rosenblum

How can you? Have you ever met one? Do you have a clue what his/her mind works like?

mary rosenblum

Me neither.

mary rosenblum

Your best guess may seem silly, unlikely, trivial, or stupid to me...and then he becomes a charicature.

mary rosenblum

If you want to create a villain that extreme...then you either need to create a really believable one...a Hannibal Lecter...

mary rosenblum

or back way off and let each reader fill in what he/she thinks that character is like.

mary rosenblum

Fiction is full of extreme villains...

mary rosenblum

the evil being who only enjoys murder and mayhem and they are very hard to believe in...

mary rosenblum

because we have never (most of us) gotten to know anyone like that.

bengalrose

Read Silence of the Lambs. Shiver. 'nuff said. LOL

mary rosenblum

And that's it. He did a great job with Hannibal Lecter.

mary rosenblum

But that is VERY very rare.

fiction_scribe

so that type is just flat?

mary rosenblum

Tends to be. They're a dime a dozen and about as real as a life-size cut out of Darth Vader or the Emperor from Star Wars.

mary rosenblum

The person who is recognizable as a real person and who does evil is MUCH scarier because we CAN imagine meeting that person.

mary rosenblum

I personally think the best horror Steven King did was 'The Body', the novella that became Stand By Me, the movie. That novella has all the quiet horror small town...

mary rosenblum

opression and bullying. It's VERY dark.

mary rosenblum

And that is because it's quite real.

drowningmermaid

Stephen King said fear is based in the imagination.

mary rosenblum

Ah, but imagination is based on reality...his stuff is scary because...like that clown...we have met these things...

mary rosenblum

in the real world. We know they CAN exist.

mary rosenblum

An extreme we don't really believe in.

fiction_scribe

Like the BTK guy in Kansas City?

mary rosenblum

YOu want the guy next door who waters the lawn and loans you his rake and has a basement full of bodies.

drowningmermaid

The more you tell, the less scary they are.

mary rosenblum

That's very true..and it's true in sex scenes, too, unless you're doing porn or erotica. :-)

mary rosenblum

But don't mistake telling less and making your character unrealistic.

mary rosenblum

YOu want a very few realistic details that provide the reality and then let the reader fill in the other details he/she think belong there.

mary rosenblum

Don't forget...your reader creates the story WITH you.

mary rosenblum

Your story will never be exactly the story I read, and they will differ from the story my neighbor reads.

mary rosenblum

The important aspects won't differ...but a lot of details will and they'll vary because of our different experiences and world views.

gwanny

or for a general idea of what makes them tick, look the diagnosis up in the DSM-IV

mary rosenblum

Be careful though. Clinical is clinical to a reader and out of place if your POV is not a doc.

janecj333

In my mind everyone knows what's wrong with the antag., but only the protag. and the reader know what's eating a hole in the protag. as she goes about trying to save the world. We wonder how she will save herself, her soul, at the same time. Should this struggle be overt or better, implied?

mary rosenblum

That's it exactly, jane. And we 're much more interested in that protag, too, or course. :-) Generally you are much better off implying. .

mary rosenblum

The reason is this...nobody TELLS us what is going on in the real world.

mary rosenblum

We figure it out from what we absorb through our five senses.

mary rosenblum

If you provide enough clues that your reader figures it out through what your POV sees, hears, thinks, etc, you have successfully mimicked real life.

mary rosenblum

And the story seems real.

mary rosenblum

If you insert a lot of narrative to tell us in great detail what your POV is suffering through...

mary rosenblum

this is clearly you telling us a story. We are not living it with the character.

mary rosenblum

Give the readers enough so they can figure it out and then LET THEM.

mary rosenblum

Don't be too controlling. You can tell a lot more than you can show, but your story will be stronger if you show.

mary rosenblum

As long as they get the general idea, you're fine.

mary rosenblum

You and your reader are a team.

mary rosenblum

You are BOTH creating that story.

mary rosenblum

(You're just doing more of the work).

mary rosenblum

So when you sit down to plot...ask yourself...what does my character have at stake here?

mary rosenblum

What will happen if he/she fails?

mary rosenblum

And ask yourself...what is broken inside him/her? How does he/she need to change in order to become a whole person? Or have a better life in the future?

mary rosenblum

And if your plot just seems flat...try giving the story to another character.

mary rosenblum

That person may have more at stake here.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been another fun Oregon hour. :-)

mary rosenblum

I'll be doing the Friday Forum from Cascadia Con in Seattle.

mary rosenblum

Do drop in tomorrow morning for our regular casual chat...

mary rosenblum

where we talk about everything.

mary rosenblum

It's a lot of fun and a great way to meet other writers.

mary rosenblum

See you all then!

mary rosenblum

I'll post this in the regular place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts

 

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