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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've had a good week
and are enjoying some summer weather that isn't either way too hot or a
downpour!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope most of you were able
to visit with Pam Casto, teacher of flash fiction, last night.
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mary rosenblum
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Alas, the interview was a bit
slow in pace...she had some technical troubles.
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mary rosenblum
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But she was very informative
about the nature of Flash fiction.
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mary rosenblum
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She sent me a host of markets
as well as a 'reading list' of what she considers to be superior flash
fiction examples.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll find her list posted in
our New Market updates section in Writing Craft.
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gskearney
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Mary, do you know and/or approve
of the Miss Snark blog? I like it, and I've learned a few things too. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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oh, it's fun. :-) But take it
with a grain of salt. From what I've seen of it, she's representing a lot
of things as 'everybody does this', and it's not true.
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mary rosenblum
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But there IS a lot of
interesting inside stuff in what she writers...
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mary rosenblum
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just don't take it as gospel
that's true 100% of the time.
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mary rosenblum
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If you go to a number of
writers conferences, you'll hear well established pros in all aspects of
the publishing spectrum..
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mary rosenblum
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flatly contradict each other.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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Not on the same panel, but
you'll hear Ms. X say 'this is always the case' one time...
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mary rosenblum
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and at the next conference,
Mr. Y will say 'that is always the case'...
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mary rosenblum
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So you listen to everybody
politely and begin to winnow things out into a spectrum that runs from
'most people do this' to 'a very few people do this'.
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speckledorf
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I think the thing to remember
with Miss Snark is it is "Her" opinion. But she sure is fun to
read:--)
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xana
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Can you give us an example of a
mistruth?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure.
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mary rosenblum
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They're not 'mistruths', but
what happens is that an individual will recite what he/she
wants/needs/likes...
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mary rosenblum
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as if everybody does.
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mary rosenblum
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I had a guest not too long ago
who instructed people to write vivid, descriptive cover letters about the
manuscript they were submitting...
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mary rosenblum
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because the cover letters
hooked her interest.
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mary rosenblum
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She said that as if it was the
way to do things all the time.
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mary rosenblum
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But most editors HATE cover
letters if they have the manuscript in hand.
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mary rosenblum
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Clearly some editors DO love
glowing and lengthy cover letters, but it's uncommon rather than common...
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mary rosenblum
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but her comments might lead a
novice to think everyone wanted it that way.
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mary rosenblum
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(They don't really HATE them
so much as they ignore them and think you're kind of dumb to waste your
time when they're going to read the mss anyway)
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing a plotting
workshop. Feel free to offer up that stuck plot or idea that needs help.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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xana
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So should you send any cover
letter at all if you are sending the manuscript?
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mary rosenblum
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I would. Never underestimate
the value of personal connection.
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mary rosenblum
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Even when I was a raw newbie
with no publishing credits to my name, I tried very hard to make my cover
letter...
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mary rosenblum
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casual and almost familiar in
tone. :-) Figuring it would sound as if I did this all the time and knew
lots of editors. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I don't mean overly familiar,
but I tried to use a chatty tone, said something nice about a recent issue,
said something like...
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mary rosenblum
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I'm really pleased with this
story, and my first thought was your magazine. I love what you've been
doing with near future fiction, and I hope you enjoy my venture into that
realm.
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mary rosenblum
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Sure beats Dear Editor, please
accept my submission to your magazine.!
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mary rosenblum
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I don't know if it helped any,
but I did start getting comments back from editors pretty quickly.
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mary rosenblum
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My feeling is that a brief
moment of connection makes you more a person to that editor.
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mary rosenblum
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And that makes that editor want
to help you out.
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mary rosenblum
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They all like to help new
writers get started...I have never known one who didn't.
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mary rosenblum
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Trembling in awe does not
impress most editors. LOL
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mary rosenblum
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But keep it short. I'm talking
two very short paragraphs at MOST.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, we haven't done a hands
on workshop for awhile, and I figured this would be a good night.
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mary rosenblum
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What I thought I'd do is play
what if games with a plot or idea that just won't gel for you.
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xana
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My younger son once sneered re
academic papers that they all had the same format: X said this, Y said
that, but neither said Z which is what my paper is about
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mary rosenblum
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LOL, well that IS the
format!!! Didn't they teach you that in school???
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tory
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re: plotting. I have a 6-yr old,
very close to my MC, who is the impeturs for the climax of the book. For
safety sake, in reality, I do not believe the MC would take her on the
journery north when MC's try to catch the kidnappers. So climax and
resolution happen without her. I know we should wrap up fairly quickly
after the resolution. Okay to drag it out a bit, relocate MC's in southern
city so they can fill her in?
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mary rosenblum
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If the north works better for
your climax, tory, just give the MC no choice. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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That's a major part of plot
tweaking...
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mary rosenblum
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which is what you do between
the initial plot idea and the finished book...
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mary rosenblum
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when you realize your
character simply isn't going to DO what you need that character to do.
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mary rosenblum
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I would backtrack a bit if you
need to and weave in a bit of a subplot so that the MC who of course...
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mary rosenblum
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has no intention of taking
this child along, finds himself/herself stuck with the kid and unhappy
about the danger...
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mary rosenblum
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but can't make any other
choice.
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mary rosenblum
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That's the beauty of
controlling your universe. With a bit of mindsweat you CAN set up events so
that your characters have to do what you need them to do.
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mary rosenblum
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For example...
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mary rosenblum
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a plague might break out and
this child will be vulnerable...someone from her past might want to kidnap
her or even kill her...
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mary rosenblum
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she might convince someone on
the trek to sneak her along.
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rick122
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Opens up a whoe new set of
choices does it not ?
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mary rosenblum
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It sure does, rick.
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mary rosenblum
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try /ask in front of your plot
idea, geeze.
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mary rosenblum
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One trait that most new
writers share...and I sure did when I started...is 'stiffness'.
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks, geeze!
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mary rosenblum
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What I mean by that is that
you think up the plot...
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mary rosenblum
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and then you rigidly stick to
it and when you can't go any farther you stop.
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mary rosenblum
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Plots are infinitely flexible
and one change like our child...
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mary rosenblum
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finding a way to force her
presence on the trek...
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mary rosenblum
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might add all kinds of
interesting choices that will benefit the story in the long run.
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mary rosenblum
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think of plots as rubber.
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mary rosenblum
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Bend, twist, stretch, and
compress at will!
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mary rosenblum
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When you like the shape you
have, keep it. If you don't, keep twisting and stretching until you do.
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing a plotting
workshop. Feel free to offer up that stuck plot or idea that needs help.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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geezer
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Man is to meet new girlfriend's
straightlaced marine father. A disaster has occured in his living room the
explaination for which the father would never believe. How does the
conversation go?"
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xana
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Geezer, how do you WANT the
conversation to go?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, that's not quite going
to work, xana...
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mary rosenblum
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because the conversation will
go however the characters you've created will have it.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have created a
character who won't believe the boyfriend's explanation, he's not going to
believe it.
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mary rosenblum
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So what will he do?
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mary rosenblum
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He can forbid his daughter to
see him any more...but can he enforce that?
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geezer
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Hysterically funny
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mary rosenblum
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Well, then you just set up the
chain of events so that the readers are giggling by the end. :-)
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rick122
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I try to have my chacter in my
head and then have him/her react to the plot. Helps avoid stifness
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mary rosenblum
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It sure can, rick. If your
character is going to choose a certain path and you need him/her to choose
another...
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mary rosenblum
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you have to find the events to
force that character to choose that alternative path
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tory
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I did want child to go north,
but could not think of a good enough reason. MC's are escaping from
kidnappers, little money, no car. They are sent on bus through rural
Albania. Child is with friends in capital. Can't sneak on bus, would be at
risk of kidnap if she goes north, there are NO other forms of travel (save
ox cart! And it's a day's journey by bus.). Any ideas?
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mary rosenblum
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I'd back up and find a way to
keep your child with the MC. Don't wait until they're separated and then
try to reunite 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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That might mean unraveling
some of your plot, but I bet you can find a way.
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mary rosenblum
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And hey. If they have to
smuggle her onto the bus, you have a GREAT suspense scene as one distracts
the driver...
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mary rosenblum
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or some lucky event happens
and they take desperate advantage of it.
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janecj333
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Often times, the character who
you think should do the talking is the one who most shouldn't. An unlikely
character...a four-year-old who bursts into the room, a cop who arrives at
the door unannounced, etc. ...might be a better dialogue-carrier.
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mary rosenblum
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Was that in response to
geezer's conversation issue, jane? That can certainly change the tenor of a
scene.
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xana
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Would the boyfriend invent a
ridiculaous expalnation?
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mary rosenblum
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That might work. Just don't
make him suffer from SCS!
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mary rosenblum
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(Stupid Character Syndrome)
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janp
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Crack up laughing as he
remembers his own introduction to future in-laws
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mary rosenblum
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That can by funny no matter
what!
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rick122
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When I d o it that way seems to
find it own way.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, letting your characters
find the way can often help. Just don't let them run off with the story.
:-)
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rick122
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Start simple and have it grow
into ridiculaous
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mary rosenblum
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That works. That's kind of a
classic...
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mary rosenblum
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one mistake leads to a worse
mistake and that leads to an even worse mistake. :-) Sort of the classic
humor progression.
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codeblue
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Are there politics in the
writing world also??
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mary rosenblum
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You have politics everywhere,
code. I don't think they're any worse or any better than most groups.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes they benefit you,
sometimes they work against you.
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cosmos
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When you start plotting a murder
mystery, where do you find possible motives and reasons for murder? Is it a
good idea to look in police files or is there a book that tells all? Or
should I start and then work on the puzzle to see what needs to happen?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, goodness, cosmos, try the
newspaper!
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mary rosenblum
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People kill other people for
about any reason you can think of...from none whatsoever to serious issues.
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rick122
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Watch the news :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It can be love, money, power,
inheritance, jealousy...
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mary rosenblum
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those are sort of the major
groups.
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mary rosenblum
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And it can be accident...your
perp meant to kill someone else, but the wrong person picked up the glass
or touched the poisoned rose.
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heal
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or the tv magazine shows - that
is all they deal with anymor
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah, no kidding.
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mary rosenblum
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That 'wrong person' killing
can give you a host of very nice red herrings!
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mary rosenblum
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And of course it can be
blackmail..that's one way to rid yourself of a blackmailer.
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mary rosenblum
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And then you have a lovely
situation where the murderer is really a nice person who had his/her back
to a corner.
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mary rosenblum
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Or it can be suicide that
appears to be a murder...and maybe the suicidee did it to frame someone.
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janecj333
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I started a sf short story in
which a ten-year-old murders an infant. As punishment, he is left where
bears can do away with him. Since the original version, I have agonized
over whether the child needs to die or can be exiled with his father, and
whether a child's execution is too politically incorrect..
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I would say that from
what you tell me here, this is what I would call a skeleton plot...
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mary rosenblum
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that is, you have a basic
conflict and resolution, however you choose to punish the child...
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mary rosenblum
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but the story needs more in
order to make it work. Maybe a character plot that pairs with the justice
plot here?
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mary rosenblum
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If this was my story, I would
be asking myself 'who is affected by this?".
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mary rosenblum
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Who is going to have to deal
with this situation.
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mary rosenblum
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It might be that person's
story.
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mary rosenblum
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try typing /ask in front of
your question, code, in your regular send bar.
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mary rosenblum
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You can send a longer question
that way.
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mary rosenblum
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For example, Jane, I might ask
myself if another person realizes that the murder took place because of...
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mary rosenblum
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something he taught that ten
year old...or noticed and did not report to the elders...
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mary rosenblum
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or was in some other way
perhaps morally responsible...
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mary rosenblum
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even if the was not actually
the killer?
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mary rosenblum
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As far as killing the kid, I
don't think that's a matter of political correctness so much as you need
that death to matter...
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mary rosenblum
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if it takes place.
Significantly.
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mary rosenblum
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Want to send me the other part
of your question about politics, code? I'm not quite sure what you're
asking here.
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codeblue
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Can't we basically do anthing
with politics as long as it is
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing a plotting
workshop. Feel free to offer up that stuck plot or idea that needs help.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
|
Try /ask and then type it in
your regular send bar. That should work. Don't use the ask a question bar.
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xana
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Mary, what are some of YOUR
major plot issues?
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mary rosenblum
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Issues? Like what kind?
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mary rosenblum
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I'm not quite sure what you're
asking. :-)
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codeblue
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Can we do anything with politics
as long as it is fiction??
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mary rosenblum
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good for you, code!
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mary rosenblum
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You can use real politics as
long as you don't libel anyone. That goes for fictional politics, too.
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mary rosenblum
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Public figures are fair
game...just don't libel!
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xana
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What do you do when you are
temporarily stuck? Do you forget what you did earlier in the book/
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, okay.
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rick122
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Isnt that what makes it fiction
that we do with it what we want?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure, rick. But if you use real
people in your fiction, you can't do ANYTHING you want...you can't libel
them.
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mary rosenblum
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Xana...
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mary rosenblum
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when I'm stuck, I really do
start bending, twisting, stapling, and folding the plot.
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mary rosenblum
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If I'm a fair ways in and I
hit a 'what do I do now' spot...
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mary rosenblum
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I'll look at major plot points
and start asking...what if.
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mary rosenblum
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What if this didn't happen.
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mary rosenblum
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What if it happened this way.
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mary rosenblum
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What if a new character showed
up and did this.
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mary rosenblum
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And sooner or later, I'll get
a wonderful cascade of oh, this happens, then this, then this...and hey,
look, I'm past that stuck spot!
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unstablemolecule
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To help avoiding forgetting what
you've already written, keep summaries of your stories as they get written
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mary rosenblum
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And that is VERY good advice
when you're noveling. I spent COUNTLESS hours as a novice novelist
searching thorugh mss pages because I couldn't remember...
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mary rosenblum
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something and had to find out
what I had done earlier. Big time waste!
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mary rosenblum
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Now I keep copious notes. I do
a time line, a character sheet, a 'universe' sheet (since I build my worlds
from scratch)..
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mary rosenblum
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a 'words' sheet if I"m
using another language or have invented a lot of words.
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cosmos
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I find chapter summaries
helpful. I also list what characters are in each chapter and what subplots
are used when.
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mary rosenblum
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that's a very good idea. That
way when you need to know when Character X showed up, you know which
chapter to look into.
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cosmos
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Is it okay to talk about your
basic plot idea openly or is it best to keep your mouth shut? For example,
is it best not to put it in a blog? Or is it okay since it generates
interest?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I'd do it vaguely,
cosmos. Generating interest is good, spoiling the book is not good!
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janecj333
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Regarding my story...There is
wuite a bit more to the plot. It is told from the aunt's pov. Theirs is a
closed society that can't tolerate mental illness (would severely impact
their small population).
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mary rosenblum
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Jane I'm glad you have the
aunt involved. I realized after the fact that you were having technical
troubles...
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mary rosenblum
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but what I said earlier about
your plot (it'll be in the transcript) is that I thought it wasn't complex
enough...
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mary rosenblum
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that the boy kills/boy endures
justice wasn't enough.
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mary rosenblum
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My suggestion was to start
asking who was going to be affected by the judgement and why, and perhaps
find a stronger conflict there.
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codeblue
|
I'm working on a murder case
that involves my step sister and my step father who is affiliated with the
airforce...is that ok?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, it depends on how your
family feels about the episode being made public, code, even if you change
names.
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mary rosenblum
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That's between you and them!
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codeblue
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would hep C be boring??
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on what you do with
it, code.
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mary rosenblum
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You can make anything
compelling. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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That's your job as a writer.
|
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mary rosenblum
|
This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we're doing a plotting
workshop. Feel free to offer up that stuck plot or idea that needs help.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have.
If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question'
button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you..
|
|
mary rosenblum
|
One thing to remember about
plots.
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mary rosenblum
|
A very simple conflict with
two choices where the MC is going to have to choose A or B and has no other
options...
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mary rosenblum
|
is just that...very simple. If
you can give that MC other options you increase the potential outcomes and
you generally increase the complexity of the story.
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mary rosenblum
|
One very useful plot format is
when you have a character facing a simple A/B outcome...
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mary rosenblum
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but you have another character
who is linked to the event in some way, and who also has choices...
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mary rosenblum
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that will directly affect that
character with the seemingly simple choice facing him or her.
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codeblue
|
that just gave me chills!!
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mary rosenblum
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What did, code?
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rick122
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I don't get stuck with where my
plot is going but someimes on how to get there
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, but that's the FUN part of
being a writer!
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mary rosenblum
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You have an infinity of
choices facing you!
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mary rosenblum
|
You may have to back up a bit,
make the story take a bit of a left turn at an earlier point...
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mary rosenblum
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but you'll find a way.
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codeblue
|
what you just said
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mary rosenblum
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I hope they're good chills.
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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Plotwise, the more characters
whose choice affect the choices of other characters, the more complex your
story becomes.
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codeblue
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they definitely are!!
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mary rosenblum
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Good. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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What I call a 'linear' novel
is something that is like a big short story...
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mary rosenblum
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where you have a main
character with a limited number of choices and the story follows those
choices in fairly uncomplicated way.
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mary rosenblum
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Think your basic romance or
simple murder mystery.
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mary rosenblum
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The big, complex novels are
those where the choices keep changing as various characters make choices...
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mary rosenblum
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and those choices then alter
the choices facing the other main characters.
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mary rosenblum
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Your family dynasty novels are
great examples of that.
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mary rosenblum
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They're both good. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But if you have a pretty
straightforward plot and you're not happy with it, try tossing in a new
main character with an agenda...
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mary rosenblum
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that overlaps your current
MC's agenda. As your new character makes choices, that changes your
original MC's options and vice versa.
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mary rosenblum
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If an idea seems too
simplistic, for example, find another conflict that will influence it.
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mary rosenblum
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Use both those conflicts to
drive the story.
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mary rosenblum
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Some of the more powerful
mystery writers do that.
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mary rosenblum
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The main conflict, for
example, might be the discovery of the murderer.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a linear plot and in
many mysteries, it alone drives the story.
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mary rosenblum
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But say, at the same time, the
detective in charge of the murder is dealing with a family issue...
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mary rosenblum
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that includes abuse by some
relative...and the murder case begins to indicate that abuse was involved.
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mary rosenblum
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You might have the detective
dealing with the family conflict and the murder conflict at the same
time...
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mary rosenblum
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and some of the child abuse
details he learns from the murder investigation influence his...
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mary rosenblum
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involvement in the family
issue or vice versa...
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mary rosenblum
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and the two issues resolve
independently, but each has influenced the other in major ways...neither
would have ended the same if they had not been entwined.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a much larger and more
complex story than the simple murder investigation.
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mary rosenblum
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Never be afraid to add to your
plot.
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mary rosenblum
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Well up to a point!
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mary rosenblum
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I have known people who ended
up with so many entwined plots that readers were overwhelmed.
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mary rosenblum
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They had no clue what was
going on.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't go THAT far!
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mary rosenblum
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George RR Martin walks that
tightrope and teeters precariously at times. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If you want an example of a
complex and intertwined batch of plots, read any of his fantasies!
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mary rosenblum
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(Take notes!).
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mary rosenblum
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Anyone else have an idea that
doesn't quite come together? Or a stuck plot?
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tory
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re: child. How about the kids
are all afraid to go north, having escaped from the kidnappers there. But
now, they have helped the MC's deal with some bad dudes in the capital, so
feel emboldened to tag along and help when the MC's go north. Much debate
and wrestling with emotions, but decide to go. Voila! 6-yr old is along.
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mary rosenblum
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There you go, Tory!
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mary rosenblum
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That even sounds as if it will
take minimal revising.
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mary rosenblum
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And if your kid has bonded to
one of the people going north...
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mary rosenblum
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she may really fear that
separation and be fierce about coming along...
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mary rosenblum
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and that might persuade your
safety conscious MC
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mary rosenblum
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I find for myself, the
creative heavy lifting comes in that first draft...
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mary rosenblum
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as I figure out all these 'how
to I get there from here now' changes, zigs and zags.
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mary rosenblum
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Revision is creatively
satisfying and MUCH less work!
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ltsonya
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for awhile i was stuck on my
plot only to realize i didn't know enough of my world and characters. as i
created the backstory i started to uncover the plot. still working on it
though! =)
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mary rosenblum
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Boy, ain't that the truth,
sonya!
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mary rosenblum
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It's amazing how much plot
your world and characters will hand you!
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codeblue
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I love the ideas!!! but
sometimes don't work
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mary rosenblum
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Yeah, they don't always work.
:-) It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle...you try a piece, it looks good, nope
won't fit.
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mary rosenblum
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So you try another. And
another. And sooner or later...bingo!
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xana
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I'm reading an interesting book,
Madame Bovary's Ovaries on what makes compelling literature
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mary rosenblum
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What a cool title! But keep in
mind, xana, one person's 'compelling fiction' is another person's 'trash'.
Shake some salt on it!
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mary rosenblum
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There is no gospel where
writing is concerned. Some things work better than others in terms of
craft, some books 'catch on' and others don't...
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mary rosenblum
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Learn from what works and does
not and keep an open mind.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour.
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mary rosenblum
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I think I'll go dive back into
my current project...an urban fantasy set in Seattle. :-)
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xana
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It's more of a why is Othello or
The Iliad compelling rather than a how to - but one can always read
backwards (i.e. get some how to out of why)
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mary rosenblum
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I guessed it was that, xana.
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ltsonya
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is it a short story or novel,
Mary?
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mary rosenblum
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It's a novel, sonya. took me a
bit by surprise last week. :-) Never say no to the muse.
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ltsonya
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that sounds like it'll be a lot
of fun
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mary rosenblum
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Oh it is. It gives me an
excuse to bring the Fremont Troll to life. I LOVE that troll!
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for coming all!
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us on Sunday for our
casual chat...
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mary rosenblum
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same time as the Forum, only
we just hang out in the auditorium and talk about whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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Try googling the Fremont Troll
Seattle. It's a cool, more-than-lifesized sculpture under a bridge in
Seattle, eating a VW beetle. :-) I visited it one night very late with some
friends.
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mary rosenblum
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Good night all!
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place;
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mary rosenblum
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Writing Craft: forum
transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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See you Sunday!
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