Forum Transcripts

Rejection Slips...The Lowdown 6/28/05

Event start time:

Tue Jun 28 12:04:39 2005

Event end time:

Tue Jun 28 13:34:19 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello, all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you had a great weekend.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about rejection slips today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

I am in revision mode...working on the novel ms that is due in in early August and that means only about20% of my 'ram' is available for anything else. :-)

mary rosenblum

But I'll try to keep on task today.

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about rejections and rejection slips because this is the wall that most often stops new writers.

mary rosenblum

And rejections are a fact of life as a writer...you will NEVER stop getting them, unless you only write...

mary rosenblum

for the few markets where you are sure you will sell that piece.

mary rosenblum

And that limits you enormously.

mary rosenblum

And they do have a lot of impact, and you really do have to learn how YOU can live with them.

mary rosenblum

And it helps to hear over and over again the reality of what a rejection slip actually MEANS.

mary rosenblum

Nearly everybody sees a rejection as a 'this isn't good enough' message at first...I did, everybody does when they start out.

mary rosenblum

We all tend to believe that the editor read the piece, judged it, and found it wanting.

mary rosenblum

So they can be crushing.

mary rosenblum

It's not until much later, when editors and publishers are among your personal friends...

mary rosenblum

that you begin to understand that there are many many reasons an editor buys this piece and not that piece...

mary rosenblum

and quality is only one of those many factors...

mary rosenblum

and the others are simply not within your control.

mary rosenblum

When you're starting out and you do not yet have the validation of publication, fan enthusiasm, good reviews...

mary rosenblum

you really don't have any indicators of 'good' or 'not good' except your own faith in your work...

mary rosenblum

and for most of us, that's a pretty shaky thing to depend on when you're a beginner!

mary rosenblum

So it's very hard NOT to see those rejections as a judgement of quality.

mary rosenblum

But you really need to try hard not to....because you're going to get a ton of rejections...

mary rosenblum

and most people who quit writing do so because they get a handful of rejections, decide they're 'not writers' and stop.

mary rosenblum

In a way, those rejections are a 'butt-headed stubbornness' test. :-)

mary rosenblum

Those who simply keep banging their heads against that wall eventually bust their way through...

mary rosenblum

and those who aren't stupid...er...stubborn enough to keep banging their head against a wall do something less painful. :-)

mary rosenblum

Let me go into how an editor selects which fiction and nonfiction pieces to buy.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about rejection slips today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Editors feel about their magazine or novel about as strongly as you feel about what you write.

mary rosenblum

They put a lot of creative effort into putting each isuse of a magazine together...

mary rosenblum

or the quality of the book they produce.

mary rosenblum

Each magazine issue will have some kind of overt theme or unifying feature.

mary rosenblum

In a nonfiction magazine such as Sunset, for example, or Outdoor Life...

mary rosenblum

the issue will be anchored by one or more features that will relate to each other in some way...

mary rosenblum

in Sunset, it might be a feature on naturally landscaped homes in California that feature lots of outdoor living space...

mary rosenblum

and will be balanced by a big food feature on patio entertaining.

mary rosenblum

And the other articles in the magazine will relate to this outdoor/living/entertaining theme in some way.

wingedwarrior24

Do authours know before hand what theme will be in play for that issue?

mary rosenblum

Yes, and no.

mary rosenblum

The editor plans issues about six to nine months out from the current issue, most of the time...

mary rosenblum

and will often give regular contributors assignments for those key articles...

mary rosenblum

then acquiring the smaller 'filler' articles during the months leading up to that issue.

mary rosenblum

Some magazines will publish their 'themes' in their writers guidelines, but most do not.

mary rosenblum

A fiction magazine will be anchored on two or three...

mary rosenblum

really strong pieces usually from name authors...

mary rosenblum

and then the editor will try to find stories that 'work with' those main, anchor stories.

mary rosenblum

So your query might be a good topic, for example, and suit the magazine...

mary rosenblum

but the editor has the next twelve issues planned out and it won't fit.

mary rosenblum

So you get a no thanks.

mary rosenblum

Now usually, if you have submitted professionally and what you sent is something that the editor might use, but simply does not need...

mary rosenblum

you'll get a 'try us again' sort of rejection.

mary rosenblum

If you get NO response to a query, you missed the target.

mary rosenblum

Either your query was unprofessional or you simply failed to offer the editor something appropriate for that magazine.

mary rosenblum

For your fiction submission...

mary rosenblum

and nonfiction, for that matter...

mary rosenblum

the editor may well have something very similar in house already.

mary rosenblum

I have rejected several articles for the LR Website recently because they were simply too similar to things I had already accepted.

mary rosenblum

Readers don't want the same thing repeated.

mary rosenblum

Stories are like that, too.

mary rosenblum

If the editor has a story very similar to yours in inventory, he/she MAY choose to buy it, but that means it probably will sit in inventory for more than a year...

mary rosenblum

and that isn't fair to you.

mary rosenblum

But alas, you don't get those reasons.

mary rosenblum

You just get a form.

mary rosenblum

Yeah, that seems unfair, and it is to an extent...

mary rosenblum

but editors ARE busy, they are not highly paid and editors with a high submission volume learn early on...

mary rosenblum

that there is no good way to reject a story. So they use forms.

wingedwarrior24

Is it appropriate to send a rejected peice to the same editor?

mary rosenblum

Usually not unless that editor has offered a specific criticism, winged.

mary rosenblum

You have NO idea why that piece was rejected otherwise, and if the editor has two similar stories in house...

mary rosenblum

your 'fixing' this one won't sell it. And unnecessary submissions really irritate editors.

mary rosenblum

Don't forget...editors have GREAT memories.

mary rosenblum

If you are turning in stories that are pretty good and getting better...

mary rosenblum

those form rejections hide the fact that the editor IS watching you grow...

mary rosenblum

and will buy from you eventually.

mary rosenblum

BUT...if you are a continual irritation...that gets remembererd, too! :-) And your name gets passed around at conferences.

mary rosenblum

If an editor says, 'I liked this until I got to the end and there wasn't one'.

mary rosenblum

And you can give the story a stronger end...then send it back...

mary rosenblum

with a nice letter saying, 'you were right and this does work better with a strong end!'.

mary rosenblum

Most of the time, the editor will read it and reconsider it...THAT is why he/she gave you the critique in the first place.

mary rosenblum

But if you get a form, don't resub.

mary rosenblum

You simply do not know WHY that story was rejected.

geezer

If they ask for manuscript submissions via e-mail and they don't rep;y, does that mean a reject too, or that they're still thinking.

mary rosenblum

We're ALL impatient when we begin.

mary rosenblum

It takes a lot of time to realize the glacial pace at which publishing moves! lOL

mary rosenblum

And a 'reasonable' response time to a new writer is usually WAY too short.

mary rosenblum

What does sometimes happen is that the editor will hold a new writer's piece, waiting for a particularly strong issue to stick that article or story into.

mary rosenblum

Realize that as a fiction writer, your first couple of stories are simply taking up space in the mag...nobody but your mom will buy an issue because your story is in it.

mary rosenblum

The editor is building your name for you.

mary rosenblum

So they don't stick more than maybe one first time author in most issues.

mary rosenblum

And they want an issue that stands solidly on its own without your story. :-)

mary rosenblum

So they may hold your story, waiting, especially if they pay on acceptance...

mary rosenblum

then they really don't want to have it sitting in inventory.

mary rosenblum

BUT...

mary rosenblum

the realities of cyber submission is that more go astray than snail mail submissions do.

mary rosenblum

If the magazine doesn't have some sort of auto reply feature and you hear nothing for about 1 1/2 time the 'response time' listed in the guidelines...

mary rosenblum

then query. 'Did you get my piece? Would you like me to resend?"

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about rejection slips today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

roe

I've gotten used to those forms, what I can't get used to is not receiving anything. especially when I include SASE

mary rosenblum

That's very unprofessional on the editor's part, roe, and it hasn't been my experience among the established editors.

mary rosenblum

It may be more of a trait of small press and new publications...

mary rosenblum

where a hopeful publisher is quickly overwhelmed with bills, submisisons, and the hard realities of trying to make a magazine work...

mary rosenblum

and let's face it...if it's a tiny magazine and nobody much seems to care, editors/publishers can get really sloppy about treating writers professionally.

mary rosenblum

Of course they won't see any serious pro again...

mary rosenblum

that kind of reputation gets around quickly and who wants to tie up a saleable story with someone...

mary rosenblum

who might let it sit on the desk forever?

mary rosenblum

I strongly suggest you keep a submission log and make a note when you hear nothing.

mary rosenblum

Don't send your stuff there after that.

mary rosenblum

Now it DOES seem to be pretty common for NF editors to simply not respond to a query even with a SASE...

mary rosenblum

and there, I suspect you're mostly seeing a 'you didn't send me anything appropriate' response.

mary rosenblum

NF editors will NOT encourage you if they feel you have not done your homework...you're not going to send them something they can use, anyway.

karin1130

What happens when you hear nothing and then get a check?

mary rosenblum

You cash it. :-)

mary rosenblum

I've had that happen.

mary rosenblum

Usually you get a contract, but F & SF magazine still sends you a check...

mary rosenblum

and a letter that says 'if you cash this check you are agreeing to sell us these rights'.

mary rosenblum

You should know what rights the magazine is purchasing of course...they are listed in the guidelines.

mary rosenblum

If you cash the check you are agreeing to sell those rights.

mary rosenblum

Do give editors more time than they say they need before you query, but then DO query if a ms seems to have vanished.

mary rosenblum

I've been IN some of those editorial offices, LOL.

mary rosenblum

You could lose a half grown steer in some of 'em! LOL

mary rosenblum

Ms DO go missing, and as I said, cyber gremlins eat a lot of email and attached files.

speck

Just one thing...when you do query (which we don't mind)...be polite and professional. Sigh.

mary rosenblum

Yep. Exactly.

mary rosenblum

Remember...your piece is only one of MANY on the editor's desk and he/she really doesn't HAVE to publish anything more from you...

mary rosenblum

unless you are Stephen King. So if you are not, be polite.

mary rosenblum

There are a couple of rude people who are highly unlikely to ever see any of their work appear on the LR website. :-)

gskearney

Be sure to include the tittle, your name and the date sent in your query. --gk

mary rosenblum

Good point, Gary!

mary rosenblum

Yes, remember that a large circulation magazine gets more than a hundred submissions every week...they usually have system to log them in...

mary rosenblum

so you need to provide title and date sent.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about rejection slips today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

tolkienlvr

Mary, for Karin, she says the editor already published the piece, then she got the check...

mary rosenblum

Hmmm..that happens sometimes with small press publications, but it's not real professional. Again...be sure you know what rights the publisher is asking for...

mary rosenblum

before you submit. And read the guidelines all the way through.

mary rosenblum

They may say that by submitting, you are agreeing to publish by these terms.

mary rosenblum

I've seen that.

mary rosenblum

YOu do need to think ahead.

mary rosenblum

At this stage, most writers are focusing on selling SOMETHING!

mary rosenblum

But what if that story is really strong and later on, you have built a name and lots of antholgies want to publish it...

mary rosenblum

but oops! YOu sold all rights for 50.00.

mary rosenblum

YOU can't republish it.

mary rosenblum

Too bad.

mary rosenblum

Many of my stories have been published in two, three, four, or more places.

mary rosenblum

I got paid for all of 'em, only had to write the story once. :-)

mary rosenblum

But it's hard to look ahead when all you can think about is selling NOW.

tolkienlvr

Mary, for mags that say on the website they ONLY buy ALL RIGHTS is it possible/ok to tell them you only want to sell 1st rights, etc? Or not ok?

mary rosenblum

Sure, tolkien.

mary rosenblum

They probably won't want to pay you as much, but some small press/ezines are doing 'all rights' to make things simple for themselves...that way they cover e-rights, and print rights.

mary rosenblum

I would never sell 'all rights' to a story.

mary rosenblum

For a nf piece...would depend on the situation...essentially that's work for hire.

mary rosenblum

You are selling your copyright.

bengalrose

LOL. If your name really IS Stephen King, I'd suggest using a psudonym ;-)

mary rosenblum

Why? :-)

mary rosenblum

If you're not THE Stephen King, it would still make a publisher very happy...although they'd probably insist you use a middle initial. LOL

tolkienlvr

at what point do you tell them that...from the first submission of it, or after accepted...

mary rosenblum

Normally, I'd say change it on the contract. But if it's a small press or ezine and they don't give you a contract, but merely publish and send you a check, that will be a headache.

mary rosenblum

You'll have to contact them and negotiate rights and payment AFTER it's published.

mary rosenblum

THere are some BAD contracts out there.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about rejection slips today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

The one thing that I really want to lean on today...

mary rosenblum

is that you need to keep submitting your work to a particular magazine or ezine even if you are getting regular rejections.

gskearney

Shouldn't you say what you're offering in your cover letter. I know as an editor I'd get really annoyed at someone who tried to change the rules after I accepted an MS. --gk

mary rosenblum

If the rights that you are offering differ substantially from those listed in the guidelines, you should specify what you are offering.

mary rosenblum

Normally you do not offer rights in your cover letter...that is not professional, you already know what they are buying and you agree or not, even if you tweak the contract late.r

mary rosenblum

BUT...if you are not willing to sell all rights and still want to submit, you should probably say so.

mary rosenblum

Realize, that will probably get you rejected unless the editor REALLY REALLY wants that piece.

mary rosenblum

It's a bit of a catch 22.

mary rosenblum

Myself, I simply wouldn't submit to someone who wanted to acquire all rights.

mary rosenblum

It's a tough catch 22 when you're starting out.

mary rosenblum

You want the sale, but giving away your copyright is a bad idea.

mary rosenblum

You'll have to decide how to play it...do you want this sale enough to throw away a piece you can never use again?

mary rosenblum

If not, tell the editor you'd love to sell to her, but you really can only sell first World Rights and first E rights ( or whatever is appropriate to the mag) and hope for the best.

mary rosenblum

But also realize, that if this is a very small mag or ezine, a sale there really isn't likely to help your career much.

mary rosenblum

Editors DO know which are the really good markets and they don't treat all clips equally. :-)

mary rosenblum

So if you pass on an 'all rights' sale, you're probably not hurting your career at all.

mary rosenblum

That is also why I always tell students to start submitting at the top of the market list, not the bottom.

mary rosenblum

Yes, you may very well be rejected by Good Housekeeping as an unpublished newbie...but what if they buy it?

mary rosenblum

If you had started at the bottom...

mary rosenblum

If your piece is appropriate for the top market...go for it.

mary rosenblum

Work your way down.

mary rosenblum

You'll probably break in at a lower level and begin selling to bigger and bigger mags, but don't throw away the chance that you might sell to the top.

mary rosenblum

A LR student...unpublished....sold to Newsweek.

mary rosenblum

And DO keep sending work even when you get rejections.

mary rosenblum

THat is one of the biggest mistakes novices make.

mary rosenblum

They get two or three rejections from an editor and go elsewhere.

mary rosenblum

Thinking that editor doesn't like their stuff.

mary rosenblum

But editors DO watch new writers.

mary rosenblum

They want to see if you keep improving and if you are prolific.

mary rosenblum

If they're going to essentially 'give' you space in that magazine, they want more stories from you when you are a name...

mary rosenblum

and the NF editors want someone they can rely on for regular contributions.

shaeya

Why do they say you can resubmit after 6 month

mary rosenblum

I've only seen that on a couple of guidelines, shaeya...I think Women's World says that.

mary rosenblum

The implies that they really don't keep up with their slush...

mary rosenblum

that a lot of stuff simply doesn't get looked at.

mary rosenblum

Or they don't respond.

mary rosenblum

Women's World's guidelines imply that they are sloppy about reading/responding to slush...but they probably get their mail delivered by dumptruck.

mary rosenblum

I'm not excusing it, they clearly need more staff, but that's probably the reason for it.

gskearney

Unfortunately, I'm kind of amateur-lific. --gk

mary rosenblum

YOU just need to get your work OUT Gary!

shaeya

Do you submit one every six months or resubmit same story?

mary rosenblum

If they say 'resubmit' they mean the story you have already submitted.

mary rosenblum

You can submit as often as you like, but do NOT send the editor mutliple stories in one envelope!

mary rosenblum

Nothing makes editors roll their eyes like the massive package of six or ten stories!

mary rosenblum

Space 'em out! :-)

mary rosenblum

I know some prolific short short writers...pros...that often have three or four stories in the same slush pile...

mary rosenblum

but I've also heard the editors comment that they'll pull 'em all and read 'em together. :-)

mary rosenblum

Then the editor is likely to buy the one he/she likes best and reject the rest.

mary rosenblum

But if she bought story One, and then gets story TWo and likes it even better, she can't unbuy story One. :-)

mary rosenblum

So she has now bought both stories.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about rejection slips today. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.

mary rosenblum

And here's really really good tip for you....

mary rosenblum

it is MUCH harder to reject someone you have met personally than a faceless stranger.

mary rosenblum

So if you can get to a conference go chat with editors you plan to submit to!

margieh

I thought the "rule" was one manuscript at a time for one editor. Are there exceptions?

mary rosenblum

It's not a rule. As I said, I know pros who are prolific who have several in the pile at a time.

mary rosenblum

It's better for you if you stick to one ms at a time...you're more likely to sell all than you are...

mary rosenblum

if the editor can compare them and choose the favorite.

mary rosenblum

Keep a log.

mary rosenblum

Write down the date, title, where you sent it...and when you hear back...

mary rosenblum

write down that date, and what you got...form, note, or acceptance.

mary rosenblum

Keep track of your postage if you're filing as a writer with the IRS.

mary rosenblum

That way, you'll know that this mag routinely replies in four months...

mary rosenblum

that one in six months...that one in six weeks...

mary rosenblum

and if the mag that always replies in six weeks has a piece for three months...

mary rosenblum

then maybe you should query or maybe the editor is about to buy it.

mary rosenblum

I discovered, for example, that Gardner Dozois at Asimov's rejected in about six weeks and accepted in about four months...

mary rosenblum

so if I got past the six week mark, I could hope! :-)

mary rosenblum

The main thing to remember is that rejections are NOT absolute judgements on the quality of your work.

mary rosenblum

The editor simply does not want to use this story or this article right now.

mary rosenblum

Think of offering your stories the same as offering fruit at the farmers market.

mary rosenblum

If you're selling apples and someone doesn't want apples this week...

mary rosenblum

does it mean your apples are bad?

mary rosenblum

Or does it mean they have a fridge full of apples, or a tree, or they hate apples, or they had apples last week and they want grapse this week.

mary rosenblum

It's the same thing.

mary rosenblum

There are MANY reasons why this piece won't work.

mary rosenblum

Maybe this editor doesn't think this piece is quite good enough for this mag...

mary rosenblum

but remember, too, that every time you write something new you get a bit stronger as a writer.

mary rosenblum

Every time you revise, you get a bit stronger as a writer.

mary rosenblum

Every time you critique you get a bit stronger as a writer...

mary rosenblum

so even if this editor thinks you're not quite up to his/her standard of quality for this story...

mary rosenblum

the next story or the story after, the next article pitch or the one after, or the one after that...

mary rosenblum

might really knock that editor's socks off.

mary rosenblum

Editors EXPECT you to get better! :-)

mary rosenblum

And they all want to discover the next King or Pullitzer winner, don't worry.

gskearney

Do editors wear socks?? I thought they lived under bridges and ate authors for breakfast. --gk

mary rosenblum

Nah, that's reviewers, Gary. LOL

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour. :-)

margieh

"Reviewers," would be an interesting discussion, Mary

mary rosenblum

We could do that. :-)

mary rosenblum

Not a lot you can really do about 'em except to remember that if you get a bad review, NO pr is bad!

speck

Hmmmm....got no socks on...I did move out of the bridge. But don't like authors for breakfast...I prefer them for late night snack.

mary rosenblum

There you go...from the horse's mouth...or should I say troll's?

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming, all.

mary rosenblum

Join us here tomorrow for our casual chat...no topic, just hanging out and talking writing.

mary rosenblum

I'm going to go crawl back into my novel now....

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript in the usual place:

mary rosenblum

Writing Craft Forum Transcripts.

speck

Got that first chapter rivised yet?

mary rosenblum

Oh yeah...already in Two.

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming all!

mary rosenblum

See you on the website.

 

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