Forum Transcripts

Roughing Out the Novel Plot 10/21/05

Event start time:

Fri Oct 21 19:04:24 2005

Event end time:

Fri Oct 21 20:35:58 2005



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Friday After Hours. I hope you all had a great week.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we’re talking about roughing out a novel plot. I’ve published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I know quite a few LR students and website regulars are planning on participating in National Novel Writing Month.

mary rosenblum

It's a great idea. Even if you never do anything other than write that novel in a month and put it in a drawer, you will have written a novel.

mary rosenblum

Lots of wannabe novelests never get that far. And it will improve your writing, no matter what the final quality of the novel turns out to be. You'll learn a lot.

mary rosenblum

A lot of people shy away from roughing out that novel plot before they start, feeling that they will destroy the fun of writing it in some way.

redraven

How long does a story have to be to be a novel?

mary rosenblum

The length according to SFWA and used by most award committees in most genres, is 40,000 words.

mary rosenblum

Specific publishers and imprints will have their own length requirements and they will be available in the writers guidelnes for that publisher.

mary rosenblum

Novels for younger readers tend to be shorter than adult novels.

mary rosenblum

Your average sized mass market paperback is about 75,000 words and the thicker ones are probably 100,000 words in smaller type face.

mary rosenblum

What is the Nano length? I can't remember, but I know you all have the numbers. :-)

janecj333

I saw a lovely novel 136 pages at Borders last night...gives me hope

mary rosenblum

Wow, that's very short!

mary rosenblum

And some novelettes and novellas get published in hardcover as if they are a novel.

mary rosenblum

The length thing is merely something used to place fiction in categories for award judging.

robastor

50,000 word for NaNo

mary rosenblum

Ah, thank you all.

mary rosenblum

I knew it was more than 40,000.

mary rosenblum

And actually, if you charge through a novel in one month, by the time you revise, deepend the characterization, add to the richness of the setting...

mary rosenblum

it will probably end up more like 75,000 after a couple of revisions. :-)

cosmos

Mary, I'm signed up for nanowrimo. Since there are others, I'd sure appreciate it if you would give extra support to this challenge during November.

mary rosenblum

You know what would be wonderful, all you participants? Drop over to the Post A Note and post your progress.

mary rosenblum

Let us know how you're doing so we can cheer you on.

matellicblue

that would be nice!

mary rosenblum

I think it would be great!

matellicblue

has anyone done nano before?

mary rosenblum

Has anyone? Didn't a couple of people do it last year?

speck

At the NaNo website...under the "Writing Groups & Clubs" forum topic, I started a thread for LR writers.

mary rosenblum

Great, speck!

mary rosenblum

For those of you who want to know more about it..

mary rosenblum

the url is http://www.nanowrimo.org/modules/cjaycontent/index.php?id=29

mary rosenblum

Alas, with this dratted java lite I can't put a live link in here any more.

speck

Marsha, dorry and myself finished last year that I know of.

mary rosenblum

I knew there was more than one. Congrats to all of you.

carla

is sure this has already been answered ... but what is a nanowrimo or a nano

mary rosenblum

I did, but I'll fill you in, Carla.

mary rosenblum

It's National Novel Writing Month.

redraven

Can you start the novel before Nov. 1?

mary rosenblum

It's an honor system, but you're not supposed to start writing before November 1. Doesn't mean you can't plot, though.

geezer

My hat's off to anyone that can write anything let alone a novel in November or December.

mary rosenblum

Ah, but it's just November, geeze. Means you're motivated to get done before Thanksgiving if it's at your house. :-)

t green

i finished it in 2003

info

I have finished last year as well

mary rosenblum

Great! Good for you both!

gwanny

for those who don't know, speck started a forum for LR students on the NANO site

mary rosenblum

I think I posted speck's mention of that, but I got bumped out of here, so it might have been lost.

redraven

Can there be more than one author?

mary rosenblum

Not sure of that, red, but you can find out on their website.

janecj333

getting back to plotting, I'm a write-as-you-go writer. Now that I'm at the end trying to squeeze a credible finish out, I find the end slipping further and further away as I go. It's very frustrating...not sure if I'm procrastinating or what, but feel the need to flesh out motivations and such

mary rosenblum

Are you fleshing them out just at the end, jane, or all the way through?

mary rosenblum

One of the things 'roughing out' a plot does is it allows you to contemplate the structure of the entire novel...

mary rosenblum

and decide if you're satisfied with your beginning, your middle, the subplots, the character motivations...

mary rosenblum

and to let those characters 'ripen' and deepen without committing 75,000 words to paper that you may toss out or shred.

janecj333

all the way through, but I do tend to keep my characters from having meaningful discussions is favor of action

mary rosenblum

Action tends to be much more interesting, jane. :-) Most of the time...

mary rosenblum

It sounds to me as if you are doing what I do with my rough-out. It's as if I'm telling someone what the story is about in detail...

mary rosenblum

and if my motivations aren't clear, if the characters don't seem to be involved deeply enough or I find...

mary rosenblum

a better way to make things happen, I can see it as easily at this stage as I can in my first draft.

mary rosenblum

You can think the story through the same way you'd write it...I find it takes the same amount of creative energy...

mary rosenblum

and your 'first' draft is really more like a 'second' draft.

info

isn't a meaningful discussion throughout the novel almost as important as action sometimes? As long as you are providing information as you go.

mary rosenblum

Meaningful discussion can be very important, info, but sometimes writers let the characters tell everything...

mary rosenblum

instead of letting the reader figure it out through their interactions, and that can get just as dull as when the author tells all.

mary rosenblum

It's like all facets of writing...enough is just right, too much is too much. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we’re talking about roughing out a novel plot. I’ve published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

kashmir

how detailed do you get when you're roughing out a book?

mary rosenblum

I tend to do rough plot synopsis in stages, kashmir. First I plot the dramatic arc. We start here. We reach the climax here. We end here.

mary rosenblum

And everything in between is a blank page.

mary rosenblum

And that is where I used to start writing, when I did my first novel. :-)

mary rosenblum

Now, I tend to go through and add a second level of plot elements. Usually I'll get some subplots into this one...

mary rosenblum

because I'm now living with my characters and as I know their own private agendas...

mary rosenblum

they suggest interesting subplots to add to the story.

mary rosenblum

I tend to set my characters on the table and combine them in different permutations...see what results in 'sparks'... :-)

mary rosenblum

By that I mean I start looking for potential conflicts between my major players that I can exploit to fill in the blank spaces.

carla

What is the best balance between the action and the dialogue .... finds writes 95% in dialogue

mary rosenblum

It's entirely a matter of what works for the story, Carla. I know that's a frustrating answer...

mary rosenblum

but if a writer puts down boring dialogue...it's boring, and less is MUCH better.

mary rosenblum

If that writer creates powerful dialogue that holds the reader in spite of the lack of action and visuals...

mary rosenblum

then it works.

mary rosenblum

It's not the relative amount, it is the quality.

info

I have and maybe someone else has mentioned this but I seem to have some trouble with my idea for nano. I think I have a great thought for the novel and it still feels as if it lacks something. No matter what I try doing or thinking, nothing seems to be working to work out the kinks as of yet. Any thoughts as to how to work through it?

mary rosenblum

Often that 'more' is lurking in your character subplots, info.

mary rosenblum

I find that if a novel ideal feels thin...and they ALL feel thin when I start...they fill up fast as I evolve my characters.

mary rosenblum

Lore, try /ask . I didn't get your question up here.

mary rosenblum

You might spend some time thinking about your characters...what each one needs to fix...internal conflicts in other words.

mary rosenblum

And see if they don't suggest some subplots.

info

so maybe I should put the 'idea' aside and work on who my charactors are for the 'more' I seek

mary rosenblum

I think so.

mary rosenblum

One of the thing I have learned by experience is that I can begin with a very lean main plot and by the time my characters...

mary rosenblum

are fully three dimensional I have fattened that lean plot with lots of interesting subplots.

mary rosenblum

And by lots, I mean three or four.

mary rosenblum

That's about all you need to really round out a main plot.

sweett

Is it normal to not know where to split the chapters? Is that something that can be decided at the end?

mary rosenblum

Yes, sweett, you can define chapters later if you want. I often end up dividing a chapter or adding three together and splitting the mass into two, depending on how the final pacing is going.

info

thanks, I think that is a big help

mary rosenblum

I have found that characters are a huge resource for plot as they grow and evolve.

lore alley

I tend to develop characters and plot at the same time. My problem with plotting for NaNo is that as I develop the plot I see very detailed scenes. If I don't write them down I forget them or lose the momentum of my idea. And for NaNo I can't start writing before Nov 1. That's why I had decided not to start plotting before then. Any suggestions?

mary rosenblum

Take notes, lore.

mary rosenblum

I do a shorthand type of note for scenes and chapters...some are very vague and others include a list of details I want to be sure to include.

mary rosenblum

They'll jog your memory.

cosmos

Since this is my first nano novel, should I consider it a practice to get used to BIC and to keep up with the challenge? I'm going to plot on my wall with colored cards and banners.

mary rosenblum

BIC?

mary rosenblum

My mind has gone blank.

cosmos

Butt in chair!

mary rosenblum

Duh!

mary rosenblum

I would, cosmos.

mary rosenblum

Excuse yourself from winning the Pulitzer with this one, realize you will be a much stronger writer when you finish...

mary rosenblum

and that you will KNOW that you can do this. And plant BIC.

cosmos

It says in NO PLOT, NO PROBLEM by Chris Baty who started nanowrimo that you can start plotting in October so notes are okay.

redraven

it might be fun to write an LR collaborative novel

mary rosenblum

And even if you couldn't officially do it, red, several people could still DO it. :-)

cosmos

laughing like a hyena

robastor

Anyone know how long the novels remain on site to be read?

welshbaloney

I tend to get blocked when I come up with a high-level arc; the arc is always very stereotypical and I find it hard to disassociate myself with other stories of that ilk. Any suggestions how to progress beyond that block?

mary rosenblum

It sounds, Welsh, as if you're suffering from a bad case of 'it'sbeendone-itis'.

mary rosenblum

Happens to everyone.

mary rosenblum

My own version is...this is just dumb.

mary rosenblum

But you have to realize that the basic story arc is nothing more than a backbone...

mary rosenblum

and the characters, the way THEY deal with that story arc, the interactions between them...

mary rosenblum

are what give that story arc its richness.

mary rosenblum

A basic plot idea is very thin.

mary rosenblum

It becomes powerful as you add the 'flesh' of character and actions.

speck

They are not on the site...they are counted by a puter then deleted.

mary rosenblum

Which is actually good, because I was going to throw out that 'rights' issue.

mary rosenblum

But if they are not publically displayed, it's not a problem.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we’re talking about roughing out a novel plot. I’ve published seven novels and more than 60 short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

robastor

thanks. I thought everyone would get to read everyone's work. :-)

mary rosenblum

They're probably worried about compromising rights for publishable material...and it would take a LOT of server space!

carla

can a novel become too long ... how do you know when to end it and start perhaps a series rather than a single novel

mary rosenblum

Sure it can, carla.

mary rosenblum

One thing to consider is publishing reality.

mary rosenblum

Right now, paper books are expensive to publish and in most genres, publishers want less not more.

mary rosenblum

Staying under 120,000 is a very good idea, or your book will cost more than other similar books on the shelf.

mary rosenblum

For awhile, the fantasy publishers wanted more...to the tune of 150,000 or more. Fat Fantasies were hot.

mary rosenblum

I hear that's changing.

mary rosenblum

Actually, roughing out your plot is a very good way to check the uncontrolled growth of a novel.

mary rosenblum

As you rough out that plot, if it seems to go on and on and on...

mary rosenblum

start charting your various dramatic arcs.

mary rosenblum

Find a place where you can bring your main one to a close.

mary rosenblum

You can imply larger stories that continue on....but make sure your main conflict gets resolved in this book...

mary rosenblum

and when you send it off to agent or editor, tell that person that more are in the works.

carla

120,000 thats it oh

mary rosenblum

Depends on your publisher and your book, carla.

mary rosenblum

If your book is dynamite and 200,000 words long, they'll publish it at that length.

mary rosenblum

But if it's merely very good, you may get told tomake it shorter.

welshbaloney

mary - i came in late and I think I missed the meat of "roughing out". Is this conversation preserved for posterity (read: tardy readers?)

mary rosenblum

I always post the transcript, welsh, in writing craft/forum transcripts.

mary rosenblum

But we're talking about working out the plot of your novel in some detail before actually starting it...

mary rosenblum

and what benefits you get from doing that.

ltsonya

I finally have a plot! I had one scene in my head and worked out the magic but I just couldn't figure out who the bad people were that my MC was fighting against. And then I read your past forum transcript on 'Villians.' It helped so much!

mary rosenblum

Oh good.

mary rosenblum

Sometimes figuring out who your villain is can be tough...if you want a powerful one that is not a stereotype.

ltsonya

I know our goal of 50,000 words is considered a short novel, but how many pages paper book would that equal out to?

mary rosenblum

Depends on the size of the type they use for the book, ltsonya...book design is an art...

mary rosenblum

but 100,000 is close to 400 pages of mass market paperback.

mary rosenblum

So less than 200, probably.

janecj333

explain dramatic arcs

mary rosenblum

Dramatic arc is the rise of action and tension from the point of the story start to the climax.

mary rosenblum

Usually it rises in peaks and valleys rather than a smooth curve. You have small dramatic peaks and slack scenes...

mary rosenblum

always rising to that climax, after which the tension and drama drop off abruptly to your wrap up and end.

mary rosenblum

It can be subtle, as in a strongly character driven novel...or full of action and melodrama in an action adventure novel.

carla

ok "villians" what if the villian of the story is actually the inner conflict of perception by the MC ... i guess my question is does a plot definately need a villian character or just a conflict with resolution

mary rosenblum

You don't need a villain, carla, unless you're writing a murder mystery or something of that nature.

mary rosenblum

All you need is a conflict. Nobody can be a 'villain' and your story can be full of conflict. Look at the family sagas.

redraven

We in this room are the characters; one of us (not me or you) is murdered; one is the killer. Help me plot

mary rosenblum

Oh, goodness, you could go in a hundred lovely directions, red. Start with 'why is my charcter involved in this?'.

mary rosenblum

What is at stake for him/her?

mary rosenblum

Why did the killer kill this person?

mary rosenblum

What will happen if my character walks away and doesn't get involved?

mary rosenblum

I'd probably find someone else in the room who is going to look like the killer and be accused.

mary rosenblum

And our POV has a reason to care whether this person goes to jail and also is pretty sure he/she is innocent.

mary rosenblum

And find an obstacle or two to my POV's involvement.

mary rosenblum

A family member believes that person IS the killer and pressures our POV perhaps.

info

in regards to villians, am I right that it is fessible to have the reader know there is a villian and yet, keep it a secret in essence as to who the villian and their motives annonymous until the end of the story?

info

or would it be better to let on who the villian is earlier in the book

mary rosenblum

Suspense is usually your ally, info. We love to try and figure out 'whodunnit' before the author tells us.

mary rosenblum

Although there are mysteries where we know who did it from the get go and it's a matter of seeing if the...

mary rosenblum

villain will outwit the hunter.

mary rosenblum

BUT...be sure to lay in some clues so that when you reveal your villain your reader looks back and thinks 'oh, yeah, I should have seen that!'

mary rosenblum

We do not like 'deus ex machina' endings where we had NO chance to solve it ourselves.

cosmos

How many scenes in a novel? Average......I realize that some will be short and some long.

mary rosenblum

Well, one per chapter at least, cosmos. :-) Depends on your rhythm as to how many that turns out to be.

ltsonya

What about fantasy stories? Do you think it's better to know who the villian is right away or stick with the mystery suspence of who the real villian is?

mary rosenblum

Depends entirely on how your story works, lt, but I've found that mystery translates nicely into fantasy and sf. :-)

ltsonya

Since we're dealing with such a short span of time to write, how detailed do you think our world's and backstory need to be? Especially in sci-fi and fantasy there's so MUCH to the world. I find it so easy to get lost in that and forget that I have a story to figure out.

mary rosenblum

I suspect that if you're doing a SF /fantasy world, you'll be adding a lot of setting to your second draft.

mary rosenblum

You can give us enough details to get by and spend the time and effort to bring that complex new world to life in your second draft.

mary rosenblum

But no matter how long you have to write, you need to make your SF world the BACKGROUND that it is, lt...

mary rosenblum

and not let it overwhelm your story. You will know four times as much as your reader -- yoru world is an iceberg...

mary rosenblum

and the readers only see the tip.

info

can there be say two scenes in a chapter if one is really short and is only there to let the reader know this is happening while the bigger scene is going on?

mary rosenblum

Sure, info.

mary rosenblum

A chapter can have multiple scenes.

ltsonya

What's the best way to hook your readers to keep going to the next chapter?

mary rosenblum

Ah, there are many many ways, lt...

mary rosenblum

You can leave us with the expectation that something will happen.

mary rosenblum

You can leave us iwth an impending problem looming on the horizon.

mary rosenblum

You can leave us at the end of an argument between characters that makes us wonder how they will work it out.

janecj333

Maybe redraven could make use of the character archetypes list...hero, hero's friend, the wise sage, etc. in plotting...I know there's a list somewhere on the web...and it's amazing to see that we automatically use many of these

mary rosenblum

Those do tend to be the characters we create, jane, but I'm a bit wary, always, of pointing novice writers to them. It's too easy to plot down that 'Hero's Friend' or 'Amazon' and forget to ...

mary rosenblum

turn that cardboard cutout into a real person.

mary rosenblum

Better to create the character that is complex and real and suits the story and later realize that hey, this is a Hero's Friend.

mary rosenblum

I'm actually in the plotting process with two novels right now...one SF and one mystery.

mary rosenblum

I'm farther along with the mystery...I'm at the stage of filling in the blanks on my dramatic arc with subplots and character interactions.

mary rosenblum

And evolving my characters.

mary rosenblum

I just added a subplot that came out of a developing character, for example.

mary rosenblum

I find it very useful at this stage, to keep a printed copy of the basic plot lying around. Ideas hit me in the middle of doing dishes...

mary rosenblum

reading the paper...what have you.

mary rosenblum

And I quick, write 'em down on the plot sheet...

mary rosenblum

and every day or so, I update the compute file and print out a new plot line.

mary rosenblum

Slowly it grows from a single page to multiple pages as I ...

mary rosenblum

begin to fill in details.

carla

just make sure the husband knows the napkins with scratching on them are not trash

mary rosenblum

Oh, no kidding, carla! :-) My sons were well trained...never throw ANYTHING away with Mom' s writing on it!

mary rosenblum

Lessee...right now I have the printout, a couple of envelopes, a scrap torn from the newspaper, the back of a letter...all with scribbles on 'em...all paperclipped to the plot page.

mary rosenblum

The more time you give your right brain to think about that plot the more ideas will pop into your head.

mary rosenblum

Generally, if you sit down and think 'I must plot now' your brain goes blank.

tory

You've given me hope, Mary. Sometimes I feel so disorganized with all my paper-clipped notes.

mary rosenblum

Oh gosh, you should see my 'trash files' waiting to be typed into the computer! :-)

mary rosenblum

I write on anything handy when I get an idea.

mary rosenblum

Pick up your plot sheet and look at it from time to time. Put it down. Go work on whatever you're doing. See what surfaces in your mind.

mary rosenblum

hbuenostro...I saw your comment in the auditorium...about not making it into print because you're hispanic?

mary rosenblum

That's far from the truth. :-)

mary rosenblum

There is a very big interest in the publishing world for non-middleclasswhite perspective...

mary rosenblum

and being Native American, Hispanic, or from any other culture adds interest these days.

mary rosenblum

You sure don't get discrminated against.

mary rosenblum

The world of fiction is much more cosmpolitan these days.

tory

Mary WAY OFF TOPIC but I'm wondering -- Is it standard in agent contracts for there to be a clause about if the agent is disabled or dies that their 15% continues to go to their estate? Seems fair. Just intimidating to think about signing something that is binding beyond the grave. If you could PM an answer, I'd sure appreciate.

mary rosenblum

Sorry, I posted this before I saw your PM request, but it's a good question... and worth talking about.

mary rosenblum

It depends entirely on any written agreement between you and your agent. I have no written contract with my agent.

mary rosenblum

We verbally agreed that each could 'fire' the other via a written letter.

mary rosenblum

If she...heaven forbid...died tomorrow, her estate would certainly keep getting 15% of any royalties on books she had sold for me.

ltsonya

Do you think NANO is a good excerise in writing a novel? I find it helpful that we have a "deadline"

mary rosenblum

It is an excellent exercise, ltsonya, even if you never do anything with that novel ms.

mary rosenblum

You will have written 50,000 words and will be that much better as a writer, and you will have completed a novel.

mary rosenblum

You KNOW that you can do that now, and it will never seem like an insurmountable obstacle.

carla

question about agents lets say that has a few ms done and just never considered submitting anything to anyone ... has always written just because is what i do guess ... do you need to have an agent or can you just query the market

mary rosenblum

Carla, if they're short story or magazine nonfiction, you don' t need an agent.

mary rosenblum

Many publishers want agented submissions only for book length work and there, yes, you need an agent.

mary rosenblum

Most of the SF/Fantasy publishers still take unagented novels as do most of the Romance publishers.

mary rosenblum

But you WANT an agent before you sign a book contract with a big NY publisher. Not so needed for small press.

carla

any thing to watch for in interviewing agents

mary rosenblum

YOu need to go to the Association of Author's Representatives...the Agents Guild, in effect...and read their FAQ page about how to acquire an agent. They answer a lot of that sort of question and tell you what to ask. http://www.aar-online.org/index.html

mary rosenblum

Well, I hope a lot of you try the Nano challenge this year. Post your progress on the Post A Note and have a great time.

mary rosenblum

Do join us Sunday for our casual chat...same time as this Forum. We just get together to talk about whatever.

mary rosenblum

And by the way...I posted a new mystery short market... Mysterical E. An eZine. It's in New Market updates.

mary rosenblum

In Writing Craft.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript of this Forum in Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Have a great weekend, all, and think about those novel plots.

 

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