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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Friday After
Hours. I hope you all had a great week.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we’re talking about
roughing out a novel plot. I’ve published seven novels and more than 60
short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If
you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’
button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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I know quite a few LR students
and website regulars are planning on participating in National Novel
Writing Month.
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mary rosenblum
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It's a great idea. Even if you
never do anything other than write that novel in a month and put it in a
drawer, you will have written a novel.
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mary rosenblum
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Lots of wannabe novelests
never get that far. And it will improve your writing, no matter what the
final quality of the novel turns out to be. You'll learn a lot.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of people shy away from
roughing out that novel plot before they start, feeling that they will
destroy the fun of writing it in some way.
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redraven
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How long does a story have to be
to be a novel?
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mary rosenblum
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The length according to SFWA
and used by most award committees in most genres, is 40,000 words.
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mary rosenblum
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Specific publishers and
imprints will have their own length requirements and they will be available
in the writers guidelnes for that publisher.
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mary rosenblum
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Novels for younger readers
tend to be shorter than adult novels.
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mary rosenblum
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Your average sized mass market
paperback is about 75,000 words and the thicker ones are probably 100,000
words in smaller type face.
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mary rosenblum
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What is the Nano length? I
can't remember, but I know you all have the numbers. :-)
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janecj333
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I saw a lovely novel 136 pages
at Borders last night...gives me hope
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mary rosenblum
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Wow, that's very short!
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mary rosenblum
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And some novelettes and
novellas get published in hardcover as if they are a novel.
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mary rosenblum
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The length thing is merely
something used to place fiction in categories for award judging.
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robastor
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50,000 word for NaNo
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, thank you all.
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mary rosenblum
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I knew it was more than
40,000.
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mary rosenblum
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And actually, if you charge
through a novel in one month, by the time you revise, deepend the
characterization, add to the richness of the setting...
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mary rosenblum
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it will probably end up more
like 75,000 after a couple of revisions. :-)
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cosmos
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Mary, I'm signed up for
nanowrimo. Since there are others, I'd sure appreciate it if you would give
extra support to this challenge during November.
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mary rosenblum
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You know what would be
wonderful, all you participants? Drop over to the Post A Note and post your
progress.
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mary rosenblum
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Let us know how you're doing
so we can cheer you on.
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matellicblue
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that would be nice!
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mary rosenblum
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I think it would be great!
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matellicblue
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has anyone done nano before?
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mary rosenblum
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Has anyone? Didn't a couple of
people do it last year?
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speck
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At the NaNo website...under the
"Writing Groups & Clubs" forum topic, I started a thread for
LR writers.
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mary rosenblum
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Great, speck!
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mary rosenblum
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For those of you who want to
know more about it..
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mary rosenblum
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the url is
http://www.nanowrimo.org/modules/cjaycontent/index.php?id=29
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mary rosenblum
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Alas, with this dratted java
lite I can't put a live link in here any more.
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speck
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Marsha, dorry and myself
finished last year that I know of.
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mary rosenblum
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I knew there was more than
one. Congrats to all of you.
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carla
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is sure this has already been
answered ... but what is a nanowrimo or a nano
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mary rosenblum
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I did, but I'll fill you in,
Carla.
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mary rosenblum
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It's National Novel Writing
Month.
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redraven
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Can you start the novel before
Nov. 1?
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mary rosenblum
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It's an honor system, but
you're not supposed to start writing before November 1. Doesn't mean you
can't plot, though.
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geezer
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My hat's off to anyone that can
write anything let alone a novel in November or December.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, but it's just November,
geeze. Means you're motivated to get done before Thanksgiving if it's at
your house. :-)
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t green
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i finished it in 2003
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info
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I have finished last year as
well
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mary rosenblum
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Great! Good for you both!
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gwanny
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for those who don't know, speck
started a forum for LR students on the NANO site
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mary rosenblum
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I think I posted speck's
mention of that, but I got bumped out of here, so it might have been lost.
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redraven
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Can there be more than one
author?
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mary rosenblum
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Not sure of that, red, but you
can find out on their website.
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janecj333
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getting back to plotting, I'm a
write-as-you-go writer. Now that I'm at the end trying to squeeze a
credible finish out, I find the end slipping further and further away as I
go. It's very frustrating...not sure if I'm procrastinating or what, but
feel the need to flesh out motivations and such
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mary rosenblum
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Are you fleshing them out just
at the end, jane, or all the way through?
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mary rosenblum
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One of the things 'roughing
out' a plot does is it allows you to contemplate the structure of the entire
novel...
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mary rosenblum
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and decide if you're satisfied
with your beginning, your middle, the subplots, the character
motivations...
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mary rosenblum
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and to let those characters
'ripen' and deepen without committing 75,000 words to paper that you may
toss out or shred.
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janecj333
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all the way through, but I do
tend to keep my characters from having meaningful discussions is favor of
action
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mary rosenblum
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Action tends to be much more
interesting, jane. :-) Most of the time...
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mary rosenblum
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It sounds to me as if you are
doing what I do with my rough-out. It's as if I'm telling someone what the
story is about in detail...
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mary rosenblum
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and if my motivations aren't
clear, if the characters don't seem to be involved deeply enough or I
find...
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mary rosenblum
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a better way to make things
happen, I can see it as easily at this stage as I can in my first draft.
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mary rosenblum
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You can think the story
through the same way you'd write it...I find it takes the same amount of
creative energy...
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mary rosenblum
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and your 'first' draft is
really more like a 'second' draft.
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info
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isn't a meaningful discussion
throughout the novel almost as important as action sometimes? As long as
you are providing information as you go.
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mary rosenblum
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Meaningful discussion can be
very important, info, but sometimes writers let the characters tell
everything...
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mary rosenblum
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instead of letting the reader
figure it out through their interactions, and that can get just as dull as
when the author tells all.
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mary rosenblum
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It's like all facets of
writing...enough is just right, too much is too much. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we’re talking about
roughing out a novel plot. I’ve published seven novels and more than 60
short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If
you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’
button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me!
Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if
that works better for you..
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kashmir
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how detailed do you get when
you're roughing out a book?
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mary rosenblum
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I tend to do rough plot
synopsis in stages, kashmir. First I plot the dramatic arc. We start here.
We reach the climax here. We end here.
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mary rosenblum
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And everything in between is a
blank page.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is where I used to
start writing, when I did my first novel. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Now, I tend to go through and
add a second level of plot elements. Usually I'll get some subplots into
this one...
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mary rosenblum
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because I'm now living with my
characters and as I know their own private agendas...
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mary rosenblum
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they suggest interesting
subplots to add to the story.
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mary rosenblum
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I tend to set my characters on
the table and combine them in different permutations...see what results in
'sparks'... :-)
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mary rosenblum
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By that I mean I start looking
for potential conflicts between my major players that I can exploit to fill
in the blank spaces.
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carla
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What is the best balance between
the action and the dialogue .... finds writes 95% in dialogue
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mary rosenblum
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It's entirely a matter of what
works for the story, Carla. I know that's a frustrating answer...
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mary rosenblum
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but if a writer puts down
boring dialogue...it's boring, and less is MUCH better.
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mary rosenblum
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If that writer creates
powerful dialogue that holds the reader in spite of the lack of action and
visuals...
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mary rosenblum
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then it works.
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mary rosenblum
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It's not the relative amount,
it is the quality.
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info
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I have and maybe someone else
has mentioned this but I seem to have some trouble with my idea for nano. I
think I have a great thought for the novel and it still feels as if it
lacks something. No matter what I try doing or thinking, nothing seems to
be working to work out the kinks as of yet. Any thoughts as to how to work
through it?
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mary rosenblum
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Often that 'more' is lurking
in your character subplots, info.
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mary rosenblum
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I find that if a novel ideal
feels thin...and they ALL feel thin when I start...they fill up fast as I
evolve my characters.
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mary rosenblum
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Lore, try /ask . I didn't get
your question up here.
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mary rosenblum
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You might spend some time
thinking about your characters...what each one needs to fix...internal
conflicts in other words.
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mary rosenblum
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And see if they don't suggest
some subplots.
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info
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so maybe I should put the 'idea'
aside and work on who my charactors are for the 'more' I seek
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mary rosenblum
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I think so.
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mary rosenblum
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One of the thing I have
learned by experience is that I can begin with a very lean main plot and by
the time my characters...
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mary rosenblum
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are fully three dimensional I
have fattened that lean plot with lots of interesting subplots.
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mary rosenblum
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And by lots, I mean three or
four.
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mary rosenblum
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That's about all you need to
really round out a main plot.
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sweett
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Is it normal to not know where
to split the chapters? Is that something that can be decided at the end?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, sweett, you can define
chapters later if you want. I often end up dividing a chapter or adding
three together and splitting the mass into two, depending on how the final
pacing is going.
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info
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thanks, I think that is a big
help
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mary rosenblum
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I have found that characters
are a huge resource for plot as they grow and evolve.
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lore alley
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I tend to develop characters and
plot at the same time. My problem with plotting for NaNo is that as I
develop the plot I see very detailed scenes. If I don't write them down I
forget them or lose the momentum of my idea. And for NaNo I can't start
writing before Nov 1. That's why I had decided not to start plotting before
then. Any suggestions?
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mary rosenblum
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Take notes, lore.
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mary rosenblum
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I do a shorthand type of note
for scenes and chapters...some are very vague and others include a list of
details I want to be sure to include.
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mary rosenblum
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They'll jog your memory.
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cosmos
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Since this is my first nano
novel, should I consider it a practice to get used to BIC and to keep up
with the challenge? I'm going to plot on my wall with colored cards and
banners.
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mary rosenblum
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BIC?
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mary rosenblum
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My mind has gone blank.
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cosmos
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Butt in chair!
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mary rosenblum
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Duh!
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mary rosenblum
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I would, cosmos.
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mary rosenblum
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Excuse yourself from winning
the Pulitzer with this one, realize you will be a much stronger writer when
you finish...
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mary rosenblum
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and that you will KNOW that
you can do this. And plant BIC.
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cosmos
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It says in NO PLOT, NO PROBLEM
by Chris Baty who started nanowrimo that you can start plotting in October
so notes are okay.
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redraven
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it might be fun to write an LR
collaborative novel
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mary rosenblum
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And even if you couldn't
officially do it, red, several people could still DO it. :-)
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cosmos
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laughing like a hyena
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robastor
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Anyone know how long the novels
remain on site to be read?
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welshbaloney
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I tend to get blocked when I
come up with a high-level arc; the arc is always very stereotypical and I
find it hard to disassociate myself with other stories of that ilk. Any
suggestions how to progress beyond that block?
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mary rosenblum
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It sounds, Welsh, as if you're
suffering from a bad case of 'it'sbeendone-itis'.
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mary rosenblum
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Happens to everyone.
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mary rosenblum
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My own version is...this is
just dumb.
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mary rosenblum
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But you have to realize that
the basic story arc is nothing more than a backbone...
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mary rosenblum
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and the characters, the way
THEY deal with that story arc, the interactions between them...
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mary rosenblum
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are what give that story arc
its richness.
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mary rosenblum
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A basic plot idea is very
thin.
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mary rosenblum
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It becomes powerful as you add
the 'flesh' of character and actions.
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speck
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They are not on the site...they
are counted by a puter then deleted.
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mary rosenblum
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Which is actually good,
because I was going to throw out that 'rights' issue.
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mary rosenblum
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But if they are not publically
displayed, it's not a problem.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. Tonight we’re talking about
roughing out a novel plot. I’ve published seven novels and more than 60
short stories and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If
you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’
button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the
screen in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! Or
you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that
works better for you..
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robastor
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thanks. I thought everyone would
get to read everyone's work. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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They're probably worried about
compromising rights for publishable material...and it would take a LOT of
server space!
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carla
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can a novel become too long ...
how do you know when to end it and start perhaps a series rather than a
single novel
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mary rosenblum
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Sure it can, carla.
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mary rosenblum
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One thing to consider is
publishing reality.
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mary rosenblum
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Right now, paper books are
expensive to publish and in most genres, publishers want less not more.
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mary rosenblum
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Staying under 120,000 is a
very good idea, or your book will cost more than other similar books on the
shelf.
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mary rosenblum
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For awhile, the fantasy
publishers wanted more...to the tune of 150,000 or more. Fat Fantasies were
hot.
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mary rosenblum
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I hear that's changing.
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, roughing out your
plot is a very good way to check the uncontrolled growth of a novel.
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mary rosenblum
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As you rough out that plot, if
it seems to go on and on and on...
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mary rosenblum
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start charting your various
dramatic arcs.
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mary rosenblum
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Find a place where you can
bring your main one to a close.
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mary rosenblum
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You can imply larger stories
that continue on....but make sure your main conflict gets resolved in this
book...
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mary rosenblum
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and when you send it off to
agent or editor, tell that person that more are in the works.
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carla
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120,000 thats it oh
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on your publisher and
your book, carla.
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mary rosenblum
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If your book is dynamite and
200,000 words long, they'll publish it at that length.
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mary rosenblum
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But if it's merely very good,
you may get told tomake it shorter.
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welshbaloney
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mary - i came in late and I
think I missed the meat of "roughing out". Is this conversation
preserved for posterity (read: tardy readers?)
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mary rosenblum
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I always post the transcript,
welsh, in writing craft/forum transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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But we're talking about
working out the plot of your novel in some detail before actually starting
it...
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mary rosenblum
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and what benefits you get from
doing that.
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ltsonya
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I finally have a plot! I had one
scene in my head and worked out the magic but I just couldn't figure out
who the bad people were that my MC was fighting against. And then I read
your past forum transcript on 'Villians.' It helped so much!
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mary rosenblum
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Oh good.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes figuring out who
your villain is can be tough...if you want a powerful one that is not a
stereotype.
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ltsonya
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I know our goal of 50,000 words
is considered a short novel, but how many pages paper book would that equal
out to?
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mary rosenblum
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Depends on the size of the
type they use for the book, ltsonya...book design is an art...
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mary rosenblum
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but 100,000 is close to 400
pages of mass market paperback.
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mary rosenblum
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So less than 200, probably.
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janecj333
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explain dramatic arcs
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mary rosenblum
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Dramatic arc is the rise of
action and tension from the point of the story start to the climax.
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mary rosenblum
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Usually it rises in peaks and
valleys rather than a smooth curve. You have small dramatic peaks and slack
scenes...
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mary rosenblum
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always rising to that climax,
after which the tension and drama drop off abruptly to your wrap up and
end.
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mary rosenblum
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It can be subtle, as in a
strongly character driven novel...or full of action and melodrama in an
action adventure novel.
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carla
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ok "villians" what if
the villian of the story is actually the inner conflict of perception by
the MC ... i guess my question is does a plot definately need a villian
character or just a conflict with resolution
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mary rosenblum
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You don't need a villain,
carla, unless you're writing a murder mystery or something of that nature.
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mary rosenblum
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All you need is a conflict.
Nobody can be a 'villain' and your story can be full of conflict. Look at
the family sagas.
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redraven
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We in this room are the
characters; one of us (not me or you) is murdered; one is the killer. Help
me plot
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, goodness, you could go in
a hundred lovely directions, red. Start with 'why is my charcter involved
in this?'.
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mary rosenblum
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What is at stake for him/her?
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mary rosenblum
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Why did the killer kill this
person?
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mary rosenblum
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What will happen if my
character walks away and doesn't get involved?
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mary rosenblum
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I'd probably find someone else
in the room who is going to look like the killer and be accused.
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mary rosenblum
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And our POV has a reason to
care whether this person goes to jail and also is pretty sure he/she is
innocent.
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mary rosenblum
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And find an obstacle or two to
my POV's involvement.
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mary rosenblum
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A family member believes that
person IS the killer and pressures our POV perhaps.
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info
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in regards to villians, am I
right that it is fessible to have the reader know there is a villian and
yet, keep it a secret in essence as to who the villian and their motives
annonymous until the end of the story?
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info
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or would it be better to let on
who the villian is earlier in the book
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mary rosenblum
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Suspense is usually your ally,
info. We love to try and figure out 'whodunnit' before the author tells us.
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mary rosenblum
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Although there are mysteries
where we know who did it from the get go and it's a matter of seeing if
the...
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mary rosenblum
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villain will outwit the
hunter.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...be sure to lay in some
clues so that when you reveal your villain your reader looks back and
thinks 'oh, yeah, I should have seen that!'
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mary rosenblum
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We do not like 'deus ex
machina' endings where we had NO chance to solve it ourselves.
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cosmos
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How many scenes in a novel?
Average......I realize that some will be short and some long.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, one per chapter at
least, cosmos. :-) Depends on your rhythm as to how many that turns out to
be.
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ltsonya
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What about fantasy stories? Do
you think it's better to know who the villian is right away or stick with
the mystery suspence of who the real villian is?
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mary rosenblum
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Depends entirely on how your
story works, lt, but I've found that mystery translates nicely into fantasy
and sf. :-)
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ltsonya
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Since we're dealing with such a
short span of time to write, how detailed do you think our world's and
backstory need to be? Especially in sci-fi and fantasy there's so MUCH to
the world. I find it so easy to get lost in that and forget that I have a
story to figure out.
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mary rosenblum
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I suspect that if you're doing
a SF /fantasy world, you'll be adding a lot of setting to your second
draft.
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mary rosenblum
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You can give us enough details
to get by and spend the time and effort to bring that complex new world to
life in your second draft.
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mary rosenblum
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But no matter how long you
have to write, you need to make your SF world the BACKGROUND that it is, lt...
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mary rosenblum
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and not let it overwhelm your
story. You will know four times as much as your reader -- yoru world is an
iceberg...
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mary rosenblum
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and the readers only see the
tip.
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info
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can there be say two scenes in a
chapter if one is really short and is only there to let the reader know
this is happening while the bigger scene is going on?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure, info.
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mary rosenblum
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A chapter can have multiple
scenes.
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ltsonya
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What's the best way to hook your
readers to keep going to the next chapter?
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, there are many many ways,
lt...
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mary rosenblum
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You can leave us with the
expectation that something will happen.
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mary rosenblum
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You can leave us iwth an
impending problem looming on the horizon.
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mary rosenblum
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You can leave us at the end of
an argument between characters that makes us wonder how they will work it
out.
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janecj333
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Maybe redraven could make use of
the character archetypes list...hero, hero's friend, the wise sage, etc. in
plotting...I know there's a list somewhere on the web...and it's amazing to
see that we automatically use many of these
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mary rosenblum
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Those do tend to be the
characters we create, jane, but I'm a bit wary, always, of pointing novice
writers to them. It's too easy to plot down that 'Hero's Friend' or
'Amazon' and forget to ...
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mary rosenblum
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turn that cardboard cutout
into a real person.
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mary rosenblum
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Better to create the character
that is complex and real and suits the story and later realize that hey,
this is a Hero's Friend.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm actually in the plotting
process with two novels right now...one SF and one mystery.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm farther along with the
mystery...I'm at the stage of filling in the blanks on my dramatic arc with
subplots and character interactions.
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mary rosenblum
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And evolving my characters.
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mary rosenblum
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I just added a subplot that
came out of a developing character, for example.
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mary rosenblum
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I find it very useful at this
stage, to keep a printed copy of the basic plot lying around. Ideas hit me
in the middle of doing dishes...
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mary rosenblum
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reading the paper...what have
you.
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mary rosenblum
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And I quick, write 'em down on
the plot sheet...
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mary rosenblum
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and every day or so, I update
the compute file and print out a new plot line.
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mary rosenblum
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Slowly it grows from a single
page to multiple pages as I ...
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mary rosenblum
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begin to fill in details.
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carla
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just make sure the husband knows
the napkins with scratching on them are not trash
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, no kidding, carla! :-) My
sons were well trained...never throw ANYTHING away with Mom' s writing on
it!
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mary rosenblum
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Lessee...right now I have the
printout, a couple of envelopes, a scrap torn from the newspaper, the back
of a letter...all with scribbles on 'em...all paperclipped to the plot
page.
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mary rosenblum
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The more time you give your
right brain to think about that plot the more ideas will pop into your
head.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, if you sit down and
think 'I must plot now' your brain goes blank.
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tory
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You've given me hope, Mary.
Sometimes I feel so disorganized with all my paper-clipped notes.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh gosh, you should see my
'trash files' waiting to be typed into the computer! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I write on anything handy when
I get an idea.
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mary rosenblum
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Pick up your plot sheet and
look at it from time to time. Put it down. Go work on whatever you're
doing. See what surfaces in your mind.
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mary rosenblum
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hbuenostro...I saw your
comment in the auditorium...about not making it into print because you're
hispanic?
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mary rosenblum
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That's far from the truth. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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There is a very big interest
in the publishing world for non-middleclasswhite perspective...
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mary rosenblum
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and being Native American,
Hispanic, or from any other culture adds interest these days.
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mary rosenblum
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You sure don't get
discrminated against.
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mary rosenblum
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The world of fiction is much
more cosmpolitan these days.
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tory
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Mary WAY OFF TOPIC but I'm
wondering -- Is it standard in agent contracts for there to be a clause
about if the agent is disabled or dies that their 15% continues to go to
their estate? Seems fair. Just intimidating to think about signing
something that is binding beyond the grave. If you could PM an answer, I'd
sure appreciate.
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mary rosenblum
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Sorry, I posted this before I
saw your PM request, but it's a good question... and worth talking about.
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mary rosenblum
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It depends entirely on any
written agreement between you and your agent. I have no written contract
with my agent.
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mary rosenblum
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We verbally agreed that each
could 'fire' the other via a written letter.
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mary rosenblum
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If she...heaven forbid...died
tomorrow, her estate would certainly keep getting 15% of any royalties on
books she had sold for me.
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ltsonya
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Do you think NANO is a good
excerise in writing a novel? I find it helpful that we have a
"deadline"
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mary rosenblum
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It is an excellent exercise,
ltsonya, even if you never do anything with that novel ms.
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mary rosenblum
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You will have written 50,000
words and will be that much better as a writer, and you will have completed
a novel.
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mary rosenblum
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You KNOW that you can do that
now, and it will never seem like an insurmountable obstacle.
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carla
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question about agents lets say
that has a few ms done and just never considered submitting anything to
anyone ... has always written just because is what i do guess ... do you
need to have an agent or can you just query the market
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mary rosenblum
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Carla, if they're short story
or magazine nonfiction, you don' t need an agent.
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mary rosenblum
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Many publishers want agented
submissions only for book length work and there, yes, you need an agent.
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mary rosenblum
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Most of the SF/Fantasy
publishers still take unagented novels as do most of the Romance
publishers.
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mary rosenblum
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But you WANT an agent before
you sign a book contract with a big NY publisher. Not so needed for small
press.
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carla
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any thing to watch for in
interviewing agents
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mary rosenblum
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YOu need to go to the
Association of Author's Representatives...the Agents Guild, in effect...and
read their FAQ page about how to acquire an agent. They answer a lot of
that sort of question and tell you what to ask.
http://www.aar-online.org/index.html
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I hope a lot of you try
the Nano challenge this year. Post your progress on the Post A Note and
have a great time.
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us Sunday for our
casual chat...same time as this Forum. We just get together to talk about
whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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And by the way...I posted a
new mystery short market... Mysterical E. An eZine. It's in New Market
updates.
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mary rosenblum
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In Writing Craft.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript of
this Forum in Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a great weekend, all, and
think about those novel plots.
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