Forum Transcripts

Scenes and Chapters; Transitions 11/18/05

Event start time:

Fri Nov 18 19:11:23 2005

Event end time:

Fri Nov 18 20:31:58 2005



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Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you've had a good week.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes, chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

I wanted to talk about transitions between scenes and chapters today because it's something that a lot of students and novice writers have problems with...

mary rosenblum

and it really can make a story read 'choppy'.

sayre

I'm having a hard time going between past and present scenes

mary rosenblum

I

mary rosenblum

I"m not surprised, sayre.

mary rosenblum

I'ts very difficult to do that without losing readers as you leap across gaps in time.

mary rosenblum

But you can make it work.

mary rosenblum

One of the best examples of this type of transition is Snow Falling on Cedars.

mary rosenblum

That book skips from WWII to the present time and again and usually the transitions very clear.

mary rosenblum

One way to make that happen is to be very careful to give the reader...

mary rosenblum

some kind of reference point to anchor them firmly in that particular point in time.

sayre

That is exactally what i'm trying to in a story right now

mary rosenblum

What you can do is as you change scenes from one time to the next, include a visual clue, or a bit of dialogue, or a character's thought that instantly tells the reader 'we are NOW'.

mary rosenblum

That's where the 'grunt work' of writing comes in....finding a way to do that.

info

could a reference like looking out the window, so and so remembered a time.....

mary rosenblum

That can make a good transition into a flashback, info.

mary rosenblum

If you are simply switching between action in this time and action in that time, as happened in Snow Falling...

mary rosenblum

you can't use that sort of transition because it is not a flashback, it is actual action.

mary rosenblum

That's where you need a strong clue.

sayre

A big visual in the story right now is my characters favorite chair, could i use that as a clue to bring them back to the NOw?

mary rosenblum

Yes, that's exactly the kind of thing that will cue the reader: We are here.

robastor

I've found making an instant mention of the different character also works well.

mary rosenblum

That's another way...if you have different characters in each time period...

mary rosenblum

or the setting in general may cue the reader...an arctic wilderness for this time and a desert for that time.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes, chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

andi

I'm having a hard time making to people stand out from others

mary rosenblum

Do you mean making your characters seem individual and unique, andi?

andi

yes

mary rosenblum

Generally, that comes from simply not knowing your characters well enough. Ideally, you should know that character someone better than you know your sibling.

mary rosenblum

You need to know how that character is different from all the others...

mary rosenblum

and then you can show that to the reader.

mary rosenblum

There are some good articles on character building on the website...

mary rosenblum

in Writing Craft: Characterization

andi

that's my weakness, I guess

mary rosenblum

It's everybody's weakness at first, don't worry. :-)

mary rosenblum

It takes practice to learn how to build a realistic person. You'll get there.

lapart

Will using head hopping cause a scene to change?

mary rosenblum

Well, if you are using omniscient POV...which I rarely if ever recommend...then you skip from head to head at will and your scene...

mary rosenblum

only changes when you move to a new time or place.

mary rosenblum

BUT...if you are using limited third, then yes, you really should change POV at a new scene.

mary rosenblum

It's a good idea to have your new POV character move to a new location or to skip forward a bit in time...

mary rosenblum

so the scene and POV change are very obvious to the reader.

mary rosenblum

Otherwise they tend to be confused by the POV change.

janecj333

at some points in a story, it seems that only bad happens to the characters, then even worse, for scene after scene...breaking this up with humor, description, flashback and action help some but the drum beat toward the final disaster beats so clear for so long...is there a scene of relief I'm not thinking of?

mary rosenblum

That depends on how you plot it, Jane.

mary rosenblum

That is the wasy, downhill route...give your character obstacle after obstacle...

mary rosenblum

but you don't have to do it that way...you can use subplots to give dramatic peaks to your story that are not simply yet-another-obstacle so that it becomes less a slog to the climax. :-)

spider

Is it okay when writing novels that involve multiple characters in which each plays a major role in helping the story to come to its conclusion to switch to different chapters and tease the reader with partial bits of the story from each characters viewpoint, or is it preferable to write about each characters part all the way through?

mary rosenblum

Well, you're probably going to want to use a single POV per scene or chapter, spider...

mary rosenblum

When you keep switching pov within a scene...you're writing omnsicient POV.

mary rosenblum

The problem with that is that it pretty effectively prevents us from caring about any one character...

mary rosenblum

and so your plot must cary the entire weight of the story.

mary rosenblum

That is not usually the best way to do it.

mary rosenblum

But you can certainly have multiple POV in a novel...we see the story though this POV for a chapter or so, then that POV... That sort of thing.

janecj333

certainly subplots allow the characters to have temporary successes

mary rosenblum

They do. And they can have subsidiary conflicts and resolutions that are not directly related to your main climax.

mary rosenblum

Two feuding characters might fight and realize they respect each other after all...end up laughing.

mary rosenblum

Yes, your main conflict remains to be resolved, but we have this moment of strife and triumph.

mary rosenblum

lapart, try typing /ask and then your question in the REGULAR send bar and you can probably send me your whole question at once. :-)

carla

this might be off topic sorry if is ... I have the beginning chapters done and the last 6 chapters done ... the beginning travels in present over course of one year ... the ending chapters are 5 years down the road ... is there one way better than another to so an accelerated time line

mary rosenblum

Well, that depends on where the events that drive your plot take place, Carla. If the main events take place mostly in the present, you can stay there...

mary rosenblum

and do a dramatic jump to the future for your final chapters five years later.

mary rosenblum

If your events are scattered between now and five years from now, you may have to do chapters that deal with that time...

mary rosenblum

making that time very clear to the reader right off...

mary rosenblum

and then move to the next leap ahead in time for the next chapter.

mary rosenblum

You can certainly summarize events... ' for the next four years she dutifully attended Clark University and got the straight As her father demanded. On graduation day, she felt as if she was emerging from a tomb...

mary rosenblum

and then begin to describe her looking at the sun on that graduation day, feeling the breeze on her face, and smiling as her mother babbles about post-graduation plans.

mary rosenblum

You have successfully compressed four years where nothing much happened into a single sentence.

mary rosenblum

It is difficult, however, to keep the reader deeply engaged when you keep leaping ahead into a new time.

mary rosenblum

Better, if you can, to do part of the novel in the present, then skip ahead and continue five years from now.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes, chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

lapart

im having a challenge making sure I write clearly to get what is

lapart

in my head on paper so the reader and myself can follow

lapart

any suggestions?

mary rosenblum

I filled in what I guessed was missing, lapart. :-) If I'm wrong, tell me.

mary rosenblum

This is probably a matter of practicing craft, lapart. You don't sit down at the piano for the first time and play a Beethoven Piano Concerto.

mary rosenblum

I would do some exercises. Create a scene. Write one about a page long, give it to someone and then ask them...'what happened?" and 'What did you see?"

mary rosenblum

You'll find out that way whether you got YOUR vision into your reader's head.

mary rosenblum

Try the exercise Janet Wellington offered last night.

mary rosenblum

Write a scene using only visuals.

mary rosenblum

Revise it adding sound.

mary rosenblum

Revise it again, adding tactile sensations (touch)

mary rosenblum

Revise it again, adding smells.

mary rosenblum

Revise it again adding taste.

mary rosenblum

Practice like that, where you're not worrying 'story' you're worrying about 'craft' will help you.

pook

if your pov is not in a certain scene do you have to use omniscient pov to inform the reader of events?

mary rosenblum

I run into this all the time with novice writers. Most of the time we really don't need the scene.

mary rosenblum

Yeah it might be nice if the reader knew...but there are other ways to let the reader find out what is important in that scene.

mary rosenblum

If you MUST show a scene where your POVs are absent, I suggest cinematic.

mary rosenblum

That is showing us action without every slipping into any POV.

mary rosenblum

For example you might want to show the murder being committed in a mystery...

mary rosenblum

so you describe the action but you don't get into the POV of either victim or villain.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes, chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

pook

can you use narrative?

mary rosenblum

You can, but then you, the author, have made yourself a character here, and have also reminded us that you are telling us the story.

mary rosenblum

It does tend to jar more than cinematic POV does.

mary rosenblum

But I have seen it done successfully. It can work.

sayre

I've been asked to write some short articles for a couple small papers where I'm from, but i'm having a hard time writting the proposal for the series since one is a religious paper and i'm a very different religion

mary rosenblum

That can very well be a major and perhaps insurmountable problem if you're not familiar with the religion, sayre...

mary rosenblum

unless you can ignore religion all together in what you write. (A gardening column for example)

mary rosenblum

You can certainly do it, but I suggest you get a good reader who does belong to that religion and get that reader to read over your proposal and articles.

sayre

it's a catholic paper and my husband is roman catholic so i have the means,

mary rosenblum

There you go. Use him as an expert rader. :-)

janecj333

now that I'm at the end of a novel first draft, I see that I've been saying the same thing in different ways for chapter after chapter, and that I need to just pick one plain statement of opinion and let that stand...however,I am trusting the reader to get what I mean. I'm not sure I get what I mean.

mary rosenblum

I'm chuckling, jane. That is more common than you think...

mary rosenblum

but in the end, it is really a good idea to know what you MEAN to say. :-) It's hard enough to make it clear to the reader at times, when when you do know.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we’re talking about scenes, chapters, and transitions. I’ve published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you’re new here, remember that you need to click on the ‘Ask a Question’ button or the ‘word bubble’ next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular ‘send’ bar won’t reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

sayre

I'm mixed so they want me to write on cultural diversity

mary rosenblum

Cool. So then you're not really expected to write about religion but rather how it has affected YOU.

tory

Mary, what is the best way to end a chapter? Tie up a scene? Or in the middle so you draw reader to next chapter?

mary rosenblum

YOu have the same question with a scene, tory.

mary rosenblum

Do you end 'at rest' or do you end in the middle of action to keep the reader reading?

mary rosenblum

You can do either.

mary rosenblum

If you end with, say, everybody falling asleep at the end of the day...

mary rosenblum

it's a good idea to leave some kind of hook into the next chapter...

mary rosenblum

they haven just hear this spooky noise in the forest they will traverse tomorrow...

mary rosenblum

something like that.

mary rosenblum

ON the other hand, readers tend to hate it when you leave them at a cliff hanger...

mary rosenblum

and they have to spend all day at work...

mary rosenblum

wondering what is going to happen. :-)

tory

Is it jarring to vary it in a novel?

mary rosenblum

Not at all. Remember that you want the rhythm of a long piece to vary...you want slow spots to contrast with strong drama...

mary rosenblum

and some chapters will end with a 'low note' while others will have the reader rushing to turn the page.

lapart

When a scene changes do you need to change characters?

mary rosenblum

Nope, lapart.

mary rosenblum

Maybe we'd better define 'scene'.

mary rosenblum

It is a stretch of continuous actions that takes place in a single place and within a continuous timeframe.

mary rosenblum

Now your characters can drive, say, from the farm to town and the scene will be the stretch of time during the drive...

mary rosenblum

they're not really changing 'place'. They are in the car.

mary rosenblum

But if you have them driving to the town and then shift to the hotel dining room where they are eating lunch...that is a scene change.

mary rosenblum

If your MC is in the living room reading, and suddenly it's midnight and the MC is sneaking out to the barn with a flashlight, that is a new scene.

circleaj

Does this mean, you can have a series of scenes in one chapt

mary rosenblum

Sure, circleaj...

mary rosenblum

a chapter can be one scene or several scenes.

geezer

Rather than using omniscent POV, I am changing scenes so I can change POV. This makes for very short scenes. How short a scene can I get away with?

mary rosenblum

Well, a scene can be as short as you need it to be, but at a certain point, you're not changing scenes, you're simply using omniscient POV.

mary rosenblum

If you hop back and forth between several POVs and the time and place have not changed, I'd say you're doing omniscient POV not scene changes.

circleaj

I am really new at this, what does omniscient POV mean?

mary rosenblum

omniscient POV is when you simply shift POV from character to character as needed. Here's an example:

mary rosenblum

Jane walked into the livingroom to find Fred. She couldn't stand Fred. He never took showers. Fred looked up and saw Jane. Oh wow, he thought. I never get a chance to be alone with her. Jane stalked over to the table and snatched up a magazine...

mary rosenblum

"Hi, Fred," she said, wondering if she could go wait in the study.

mary rosenblum

many novice writers use it because it seems like a great way to tell the reader EVERYTHING

mary rosenblum

But it merely keeps the characters from ever becoming real to the reader.

mary rosenblum

Because we keep skipping from POV to POV we never become intimate with any character, we never CARE about any one character..

mary rosenblum

and the plot has to carry the story.

janecj333

what is your feeling about a novel with multiple points of view that gradually reduces to the pov of only the mc?

mary rosenblum

That can work.

mary rosenblum

The danger here is that if you use quite a few POV at the outset, the reader may not identify with your MC and ultmately be disappointed when you narrow it to that POV.

mary rosenblum

Be sure your eventual MC is strongest!

circleaj

So, How would be best to rewrite the example so that they

circleaj

do become more real to the reader

mary rosenblum

Like this:

mary rosenblum

Jane strolled into the livingroom. Fred. She froze. He never showered. He was creepy. Her stomach clenched as he looked up and saw her. She stalked over to the table, feeling his eyes on her like sticky fingers. Maybe she could go wait in the study.

mary rosenblum

Here we have much more sense of Jane's feelings about Fred and clearly Fred is interested in her. We don't have to be in his head to know that...

mary rosenblum

the 'sticky feel' of his eyes tells us that and how she feels about it, too.

circleaj

I see, it is much better!!!

mary rosenblum

It really is. You can 'show' us what a character like Fred is thinking pretty easily.

mary rosenblum

Or your POV can guess it for us.

mary rosenblum

Jane kept watching Fred from the corner of her eye. Was he going to ask her out? Oh, lord, what would she say?

mary rosenblum

And we now know that Fred is indeed thinking of asking her out.

circleaj

Now I want to finish the rest of that scene

mary rosenblum

Feel free. :-) Now you have a seed.

mary rosenblum

Actually, that is a workshop exercise I use at times.

mary rosenblum

I write a bunch of dramatic little encounters that could turn into a number of stories...

mary rosenblum

and give one to each participant and they get to use that in a story...

mary rosenblum

however they want.

lapart

using actual places or fantasy places recommended?

mary rosenblum

They both have benefits.

mary rosenblum

People LOVE to visit real places in books.

mary rosenblum

I got tons of fan mail from people who visited Leach Botanical gardens...a setting for one of my mysteries.

mary rosenblum

Some came from out of state on vacation.

mary rosenblum

But you have to get the details RIGHT.

mary rosenblum

A fantasy setting is lots of creative fun to make...takes more work to build the world, but you don't run the risk of putting Main Street in the wrong place. :-)

circleaj

I will definitly do this exercise to night.

mary rosenblum

Oh, good for you circleaj!

mary rosenblum

If you're a LR student, maybe you can use it to create an assignment.

janecj333

I';m sorry to come back to this... in the midst of a general spiraling toward the abyss, disaster after disaster, when do a characters' emotional wounds become just too maudlin to be credible? any warning signs?

mary rosenblum

I always balance my character 'wounds' against reality, jane.

mary rosenblum

I have known quite a few people during the course of my life who have taken some really really hard hits from life.

mary rosenblum

How did they deal with them? More importantly, what kind of person dealt with those hits how?

mary rosenblum

That is the critical question.

mary rosenblum

Some people buckle easily.

mary rosenblum

Others watch their families destroyed, their lives demolished and start over.

mary rosenblum

If your character is the type who can take hit after hit you are fine.

mary rosenblum

If he/she is a wilting violet you are going to overtax your readers' suspension of disbelief.

circleaj

I am a LR student, and have to write my first fiction story.

circleaj

and all this I can turn into exercise

mary rosenblum

There you go! Have fun!

lapart

what does good dialogue between charcters consist of?

mary rosenblum

Whatever real people would say, lapart.

mary rosenblum

When you are starting, a great shortcut to 'real' dialogue is to think of someone you know...

mary rosenblum

you reminds you of this character. They have a similar educational and social background.

mary rosenblum

Put this real person into your story and ask yourself...

mary rosenblum

how would he say this?

mary rosenblum

Then use his (or her) words.

mary rosenblum

That way all your characters won't sound like YOU.

mary rosenblum

As you get more practice with characters, you'll begin to hear each character's voice.

mary rosenblum

Ideally, you should be able to take out all the tag lines (he said) and still know who is speaking...

mary rosenblum

by the 'voice'.

mary rosenblum

That really doesn't work...short comments tend to sound alike...

mary rosenblum

that that's the difference in voice you're striving for.

ltsonya

I've noticed that with my NANO novel, my characters will say things like I would. At least I notice it and will fix it on the 2nd draft

mary rosenblum

Good place to fix most things, lt.

mary rosenblum

In a first draft....focus on getting that story down on paper...or the harddrive.

mary rosenblum

Worry about all those editorial things later.

mary rosenblum

Worry about structure later.

mary rosenblum

First draft is creation only.

mary rosenblum

Put a muzzle on your editor.

mary rosenblum

I'm going to send out an email to all the website people and ask everyone who finished the Nano challenge..

mary rosenblum

to give me name and a few sentences about their novel.

mary rosenblum

I'll post 'em on the website.

mary rosenblum

I'll email on Dec 1 or thereabout.

ltsonya

I'm almost there! 41,064 words

mary rosenblum

You go!

mary rosenblum

We have a bunch doing this!

mary rosenblum

Even my guest last night, Janet Wellington, had started...she was WAY behind, she admitted.

mary rosenblum

So as a last summary of transitions...

mary rosenblum

Always ground the reader in the new scene...show us where/when/who right away.

mary rosenblum

If you end at a 'resting point', say everyone is asleep...leave something pending so that we're enticed to read on.

mary rosenblum

Change POV at the scene breaks, ideally as either time or place shifts to drive home that shift to a new POV.

mary rosenblum

Oh yes...and let me review the Rule of Three.

mary rosenblum

A scene (or chapter) needs to do three things :

mary rosenblum

Advance the Plot.

mary rosenblum

Deepen the Characterization.

mary rosenblum

Enrich the Settting.

mary rosenblum

Don't settle for two out of three. Make it all happen!

mary rosenblum

Well, I hope you join us here Sunday for our regular casual chat.

mary rosenblum

No topic, we just get together to talk about writing.

mary rosenblum

Join us here at the same time on Sunday and talk writing, food, life, whatever.

mary rosenblum

It's a lot of fun.

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend all. I CANNOT get it through my head that next Thursday is Thanksgiving!

geezer

Will you have the regular schedule for Thanksgiving Week?

mary rosenblum

Yep, sure will.

mary rosenblum

I'll post the transcript of this in the regular place:

mary rosenblum

writing craft: Forum Transcripts

mary rosenblum

circleaj, glad you made it! You can read the part you missed.

 

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