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guestspeaker
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mary?
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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Fiday After
Hours Forum.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about middles.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've all had a good
week and are looking forward to the weekend.
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about middles
tonight.
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mary rosenblum
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When you're working with short
short stories, they're not usually much of a problem...
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mary rosenblum
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but when you work at longer
length or move on to novels...
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mary rosenblum
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you can find yourself in a
vast, empty desert in the middle...or bogged down in quicksand.
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mary rosenblum
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Neither situation is awfullly
helpful to the story.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of folks have no trouble
getting started and then...they bog down.
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mary rosenblum
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They run out of that initial
energy.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes it's just a matter
of plotting.
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mary rosenblum
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You have a great idea for a
strong hook scene...
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mary rosenblum
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and it carries your characters
well into the story.
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mary rosenblum
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And you know where you're
going to end up....
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mary rosenblum
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but all of a sudden, you
finish up all those events that began your story and...now what?
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mary rosenblum
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You can't really end the story
yet, but how do you keep yourself and the reader interested while you get
to that great climax scene?
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mary rosenblum
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As someone who generally works
at the 7000 - 10,000 word range in short form, or novels, I have to deal
with middles all the time. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Even in a 2000 word short
story, you can have a weak middle that weakens your whole story.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about middles.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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This is where you put on your
creative hat and start throwing 'what ifs' about.
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paminnapa
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i wrote a novel last
nov......the middle was the hardest part...i couldnt write anything or go
anywhere....almost gave up then finally was able to hop the desert but it
was really a struggle....until one charachter stared at another.....then i
got back on a role...it was sure tough though
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mary rosenblum
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It usually is, pam. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And what happened when one
character stared at the other?
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paminnapa
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ended up writing my first love
scene
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mary rosenblum
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There you go. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Or it could be a fight...
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mary rosenblum
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Character subplots like that
are a GREAT lifeline to pull you through the middle.
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mary rosenblum
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In a novel or a lengthy short
story, think about the backgrounds of your secondary characters.
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mary rosenblum
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What might crop up to cause
trouble?
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mary rosenblum
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Maybe two of your secondaries
have been nursing a bit of friction for the last few days or weeks...
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mary rosenblum
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and suddenly it erupts.
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mary rosenblum
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try using /ask in your regular
send bar so you can ask a longer question, corky...
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mary rosenblum
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or send it in sections. :-)
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corkytor
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what if you save one of those
initial events to carry your characters all the way through.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, if you can do that, it's
great.
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mary rosenblum
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Sometimes, though, the events
that propell readers into the story are connected and have to play out
together...
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mary rosenblum
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and eventually you run out of
'and then...'
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mary rosenblum
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But if you can figure out what
dramatic events you can inflict on the middle before you begin...
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mary rosenblum
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you'll have an easier time of
it. :-)
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jyinxy
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recently a friend read a rough
draft of mine and said i had too many charcters. is there ever a
"reccommended amount" of charcters that should be used - how do
you know when too much is too much for a book?
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mary rosenblum
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Very good question, jyinxy.
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mary rosenblum
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Essentially, you have too many
characters when readers begin to confuse them.
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mary rosenblum
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In some ways that depends on
you, the writer.
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mary rosenblum
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A very strong writer, can
bring more characters to vivid life, so that readers are never confused,
than a weaker writer.
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mary rosenblum
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When you're first starting out
and you probably haven't acquired the full craft strenght that you'll
eventually have...
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mary rosenblum
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you are probably better off
sticking to fewer characters.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm reviewing a book for an
award right now...writer has, let me count...
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mary rosenblum
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about ten major
characters...it's an epic fantasy.
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mary rosenblum
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They are distinct.
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mary rosenblum
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But this is a writer who has
been a big name in fantasy for many many years. She is very good at this.
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canyon
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Is it unusual to throw in a
conflict w/o knowin exactly at that point where its going, but just doing
to keep it going.
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mary rosenblum
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Sure canyon. If you grind to a
stop in the middle of the book or story, make something happen.
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mary rosenblum
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Drop a house into the middle
of the scene. Do something!
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mary rosenblum
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Once you figure out how to tie
this into the main plot, you're almost certainly going to have to go
back...
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mary rosenblum
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from page one and add 'plants'
so that the emergence of this conflict in the middle has its origins early
in the story..
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mary rosenblum
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but that's part of what you DO
in revisions. :-)
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canyon
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Needful Things has a lot of
characteres.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, if your readers have a
hard time telling one from another, you may have to simply work on your
characterization...
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mary rosenblum
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or make some of your 'cast of
thousands' main characters and others secondary characters.
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janecj333
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When you have multiple pov in a
novel, the goals of a secondary character can be a diversion that leads
into a new conflict for the main character and her goal(s). Those
roadblocks often lead me off into interesting middle scenes, not to mention
occas. flashbacks.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes indeed, Jane, they're very
useful that way.
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mary rosenblum
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That's what secondary
characters are FOR. :-) They drive subplots.
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mary rosenblum
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And if you find yourself up
against a stretch of blankness, pick a secondary character you don't know a
lot about...
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mary rosenblum
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and start making things up.
Find something in his/her background...
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mary rosenblum
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that can cause trouble right now.
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mary rosenblum
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Maybe they meet someone and it
turns out this character has a 'past'...
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mary rosenblum
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one that he/she has never
admitted to...and that 'past' now complicates the lives of the other
characters.
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mary rosenblum
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Say you have a band of people
who have to cross a tundra to get to where the climax will take place. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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And Nothing Much Happens.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, maybe they meet a band
of raiders and it turns out Ms. Secondary happens to be the sister of the
leader...
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mary rosenblum
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who left to live in the city
long ago...
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mary rosenblum
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and not only do you have the
near disaster as the raiders attack, and the interest of the resolution of
that drama...
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mary rosenblum
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but you might realize you can
use the raiders to help your band get into the walled city...
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mary rosenblum
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or get away after, or somehow
connect to your main plot in some other way.
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mary rosenblum
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If nothing else, you can
create a natural disaster...storm or what have you...
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mary rosenblum
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that allows you to deepend the
characterization a bit more as your characters deal with crisis.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...your 'middle
addition' does need to add to the story.
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mary rosenblum
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You can ALWAYS use more
character-deepening, so if nothing else, use it for that.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about middles.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Don't forget, too, that you
can add backstory right up to your climax.
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mary rosenblum
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You may be able to use that
middle to let readers find out a bit more about your characters in terms of
their past.
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canyon
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Do you find it true that a lot
of more brand name authors seems to feel that they dont have to be
interesting?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, not true at all, canyon!
:-) That doesn't mean they won't write books that are less powerful than
say, the one that made 'em famous...
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mary rosenblum
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but it's not from laziness,
believe me.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, a less wonderful book
will sell because that name is valuable. Hey, we work DARN hard to make our
names valuable..
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mary rosenblum
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but they dont stay valuable if
you write lousy books.
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mary rosenblum
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Your numbers drop and pretty
soon you don't sell your next book.
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janecj333
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I always try to remember that
the middle of a story is tied up with what the main character wants. Not
just her outward goal, which might be to save a child, but her inner goal,
to redeem herself because of past failures. A need drives each character.
Think "WHAT DOES SHE/HE WANT?"
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mary rosenblum
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That's your internal conflict,
Jane.
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mary rosenblum
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It's the one that, in my
opinion, drives the really strong stories, rather than the external plot.
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mary rosenblum
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But your middle is also a
chance to give that secondary character you really like a chance to have
the stage for a bit.
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canyon
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Ive found there were a lot of
Stephen King books recently that were real stinkers.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, the way the publishing
world works, canyon, is entirely on sales. When Stephen king no longer
sells out the print runs, he'll have a hard time selling a title...
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mary rosenblum
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as long as enough fans buy his
books so that the publishers make money on his books, he'll keep publishing
with 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...
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mary rosenblum
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the REAL impetus...is
internal...
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mary rosenblum
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We know how we're doing. :-)
We may still sell the next novel, but if our sales are getting smaller, if
the reviews are awful...
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mary rosenblum
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that HURTS. And it hurts in a
way that your early rejection slips hurt, believe me. Or worse.
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mary rosenblum
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Every writer I know cares
about whether this book is as good as, worse than, or better than the last
one!
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mary rosenblum
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And we all want better. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about middles.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, the other side of
the middle issue is the bog.
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mary rosenblum
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That's when you get your
character into a host of trivial scenes and complications...
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mary rosenblum
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and suddenly realize you've
totally lost your way.
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mary rosenblum
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And you have no idea how to
get to the climax from here. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You see that in some big,
sprawling epics with lots of characters.
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janecj333
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Do you wonder if the push to
hurry writers up (get a book or two out each year) leads to reduced
quality?
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mary rosenblum
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Publishing has always been
that way... and yes, it hurst some writers. I think it really nailed
Peterson. He took ten years to write Snow Falling on Cedars.
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mary rosenblum
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He didnt' get that for book
two.
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jyd
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But if each of your novels are
different how do you compare?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, goodness, you know!
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mary rosenblum
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You know what you're trying to
achieve and you know how well you succeeded. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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No, you don't know it with the
first story you write, but you get there. :-)
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dwkav
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and with many of the classics.
There was a time when novelists were paid by the word, so they beefed up
their stories with stuff that had nothing to do with the story.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh yeah! Look at Dickens! He's
a marvelous writer and his details are lovely but he was getting paid by
the word and it sure shows! LOL
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canyon
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would you say that books 2-6 in
Harry Potter are all middle?
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mary rosenblum
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OH, you can say a lot of
things about HP...Rowling is under a lot of pressure. When you have that
much money involved, you get pressured.
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mary rosenblum
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And you know everybody is
looking at you. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Fame means good bucks, but
it's a double edged sword in terms of your creativity.
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dwkav
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Grapes of Wrath. You only have
to read every other chapter.
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mary rosenblum
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LOL...Steinbeck does like to
meander.
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dwkav
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I think each is a complete story
in itself.
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mary rosenblum
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You mean G of W's chapters?
:-)
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mary rosenblum
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But Steinbeck was a short
story writer, and I think that shapes his novels.
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canyon
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Is it normal, as w/ Rowling,
getting 2-3 yrs to produce a book?
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mary rosenblum
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When you have her sales, you
can have whatever you want, canyon! I'm sure the publisher wanted less
time!
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dwkav
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yeah. Hope I'm remembering the
right book, but there'll be a chapter on the story, and then one about a
turtle crossing the road type of stuff.
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mary rosenblum
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Steinbeck does that a lot, and
I wonder if it isn't because he did a lot of short stories, too.
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mary rosenblum
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Cannery Row is like that.
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mary rosenblum
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But that's one thing to beware
of in the middle of your book...especially if you're using a lot of main
characters..
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mary rosenblum
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your middle can get away from
you and pretty soon, your reader has forgotten where you were going in the
first place.
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mary rosenblum
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That is not good.
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mary rosenblum
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My rule of thumb is that
something in every chapter needs to tie into the main plot.
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mary rosenblum
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Otherwise you can wander way
off course.
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mary rosenblum
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In mystery, it's not a
problem. That tends to be a pretty linear form...
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mary rosenblum
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you're always pursuing the
murderer.
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mary rosenblum
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But in SF, where I'm building
complex worlds, and I use many 'worldbuilding' subplots, I have to pay more
attention to that rule.
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mary rosenblum
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That's another good use of
your middle for all of you using 'exotic' settings...
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mary rosenblum
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your middle is a great place
for worldbuilding subplots.
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mary rosenblum
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Give your characters reasons
to explore the location.
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mary rosenblum
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Your readers are happy, your
middle tightens up, and we get to explore your interesting world.
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mary rosenblum
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For example...in the last
novel...I hit a slow middle spot...
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mary rosenblum
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Had to have my MC make
connection with a local person...but the whole section was starting to feel
dull.
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mary rosenblum
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So I invented a zero-gravity
soccer game that every body local plays (this takes placeon an orbital
platform), had my MC stumble into it by accident...
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mary rosenblum
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and got to do a lot of FUN
action as she litterly crashed into the person she needed to meet. Let me
liven up the dull section, made the connection I needed, and woke up the
drowsing reader. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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That's a 'middle device' pure
and simple. But it adds to the story.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about middles.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar
if that works better for you..
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canyon
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Is it possible to focus on Main
characters adventure through to the end, w/o breaking away from them or
their adventure?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. Many strong
single-character books do exactly that, canyon.
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mary rosenblum
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It's common in the mystery
form...usually you have a single MC.
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mary rosenblum
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Even if you're sticking to one
POV and not leaving that character's side, you can still run into middle
problems...
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mary rosenblum
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and in some ways, they're
tougher to deal with...
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mary rosenblum
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because you don't have the
option of other characters taking over for a bit.
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mary rosenblum
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That
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mary rosenblum
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That's when you play the
'throw something at the character' game.
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mary rosenblum
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A storm comes up. It floods.
The MC gets arrested. Something happens.
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mary rosenblum
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And often that desparate
device you throw out to save the middle will add significantly to your
story. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You start making connections,
it inspires somethign else, you realize it will tie in another way...
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mary rosenblum
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and it becomes a powerful
component, not just a patch.
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mary rosenblum
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Now if you're working on short
stories...under five thousand words, say...
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mary rosenblum
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and especially if you're down
around 3500 or less...
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mary rosenblum
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you can simply ignore middles.
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mary rosenblum
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Just transition through 'em.
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mary rosenblum
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Is it boring?
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mary rosenblum
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Summarize it and move on.
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mary rosenblum
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Julie spent the next week on
auto pilot, filing, typing, and making coffee in a daze of expectation.
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mary rosenblum
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There, you just wiped out the
middle.
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mary rosenblum
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Middles become an increasing
problem as your work lengthens. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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You can ignore them in short
form.
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janecj333
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He seared the Earth in half with
one sweep of his lazarkannon. He was on planet Gorg in under a week,
sipping tres at the bar.
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mary rosenblum
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There you go. :-) Of course if
THAT middle is boring, the beginning and end had better be dynamite! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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I do see a lot of middle
problems in novice short stories...
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mary rosenblum
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and usually they are of that
sort...we get to watch Julie trudge to work for a whole week while Nothing
Much Happens.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor and we're talking about middles.
I've published seven novels (number eight will be out next year) , more
than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you
have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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If you are working with a
novel that has a huge cast of characters...
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mary rosenblum
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It's a good idea to really
focus, in those middle chapters, on keeping some kind of clear forward
momentum to your main plot.
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mary rosenblum
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Those are the books that can
turn into a bog in the middle.
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mary rosenblum
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You can always bring in a new
character in the middle of a novel if you need to.
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mary rosenblum
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Just make sure that this
person does tie into your main plot...but if that's the only way you...
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mary rosenblum
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can find to bring that middle
to life, go for it.
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mary rosenblum
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And of course, if you think
about it for a bit, I bet you can find that this new character has...
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mary rosenblum
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some connection in the past to
one of your main or strong secondary characters. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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That's the part of writing I
really love...that even after you think you know your story...
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mary rosenblum
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you have to come up with
creative solutions to these bumps and blind alleys. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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So even if you outline, even
if you think you know this thing inside and out...story is an organic
thing...
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mary rosenblum
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and it keeps growing,
morphing,and can really surprise you.
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mary rosenblum
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Anyone got a slow middle? Or
bogged down in one?
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info
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what if the only connection
bringing in a secondary character has is to bump into the mc, causing a
chain reaction, getting the mc to think about what he/she is missing or not
seeing and then the secondary character disappears in the rest of the book?
Good or bad thing?
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mary rosenblum
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That can work fine, info.
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mary rosenblum
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You just make this a spear
carrier...a character who isn't deeply developed...
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mary rosenblum
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he or she catalyzes something
else, then his/her job is done, and that character is never seen again.
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mary rosenblum
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What you do not want to do is
to bring that charcter onstage and begin to develop this person...
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mary rosenblum
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like an important character
and THEN disappear him or her.
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speckledorf
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I have a character in my dragon
fantasy...he just showed up. My male mc "had to speak" with
him...any ideas what they are planning?
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mary rosenblum
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sounds as if your creative
right brain thinks your MC needs a foil, speck. :-) Or someone to talk to.
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janecj333
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I'm in the middle of a
first-person short story. I've never written in 1st and am thinking of
switching to 3rd. I think my real problem is that I don't really know what
I want to say about the characters, except that the mc thinks her problems
are LARGE, whereas, in reality, and metaphorically, they are so very small.
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mary rosenblum
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Hmmm, jane...you might switch
to third and see how it compares. Try a scene and see what it feels like.
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mary rosenblum
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I've found that I cannot do a
good first person POV if I don't like that character. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Now that's just me...I know
writers who do that.
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mary rosenblum
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I have found that if something
doesn't want to work and I can't put my finger on why, I often need to swap
POV from third to first or vice versa.
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geezer
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I have a slow beginning. I need
to drag out a chase, Any suggestions?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, a chase sounds like a
strong start to me, geeze. Are you starting with the chase? I'd recommend
that. Slip the backstory in later, every time your POV pauses to pant. :-)
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canyon
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writing in first person, it
seems to me in real life, no person can have that kind of detailed recall.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, canyon, but there's the
trick of strong first person...
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mary rosenblum
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you create the effect that we
are sharing the MC's awareness as the action takes place...
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mary rosenblum
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that the characters are, in
effect, talking to themselves about what they're experiencing...
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mary rosenblum
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rather than telling a story
around a dinner table...although that certainly works, too.
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janecj333
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I don't like the mc in
particular, a conscienceless person.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah...I definitely recommend
you give third a try, jane.
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mary rosenblum
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See if it doesn't work better
for you.
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mary rosenblum
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OR use a narrator who is not
the one you don't like...
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mary rosenblum
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and let us follow the
conscienceless one's adventures through your first person narrator's
awareness.
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mary rosenblum
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Like Scout in Mockingbird.
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geezer
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The problem is that it ends too
quickly
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mary rosenblum
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Ah..
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mary rosenblum
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Try zooming in, Geeze...
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mary rosenblum
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the more you bring us in close
to the details, the more time it takes your chase to play out.
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mary rosenblum
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Make it dramatic, but focus on
the small actions of your MC as he/she tries to escape.
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mary rosenblum
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(Or capture...dunno who is
chasing whom here! )
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mary rosenblum
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Either that, geeze, or make
circumstance create a longer chase...
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon Hour.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post this in the usual
place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcript.
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us on Sunday...same
time...for our casual chat.
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mary rosenblum
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No topic...we just hang out
and talk about...whatever.
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mary rosenblum
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Thanks for coming all!
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andi
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thanks Mary. You just gave me an
idea I was stuck on
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mary rosenblum
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Great, Andi! I hope so!
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mary rosenblum
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See you all on Sunday!
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beryl
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You helped me, too.
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mary rosenblum
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Great beyrl! Glad I could!
Night all!
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