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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you’re
new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or
the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or
use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send
bar won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to
reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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The topic I chose for
today...the relationship between reader and writer...
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mary rosenblum
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is from a panel I was on at
World Fantasy Conference last week.
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mary rosenblum
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It's actually something that
is worth thinking about...was a good panel. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Prose is a very different
medium from the visual media of film/tv/games and the like.
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mary rosenblum
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There is a partnership between
you and the reader to share the creation of your universe.
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mary rosenblum
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The reader has to imagine the
universe so in a way, prose is about as close to telepathy as most of us
can get.
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christopher dale
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mary - the reader/writer
relationship is like any business. The writer NEEDS the reader, but the
reder - who is inudated with books - can pick and choose. So we, the
writers, need to make sure we write what they want to read.
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mary rosenblum
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WEll, that's one relationship
you can have, Chris, but then you are writing only for your readers.
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mary rosenblum
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I think you have to tell the
story YOU want to tell...the one that matters to you.
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mary rosenblum
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And you will never please
every reader out there...
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mary rosenblum
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you will connect with some and
not with others...because readers are infinitely diverse.
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mary rosenblum
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Much as marketing folk wish it
were otherwise (and often seem to think otherwise)
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mary rosenblum
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Is it really your business to
please everyone?
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mary rosenblum
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It's not mine. I hope that
more people love my stories than do not...but I'm still going to tell the
story _I_ want to tell.
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paja
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what do the marketing folks
think, Mary?
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mary rosenblum
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Publishing is about money,
paja...
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mary rosenblum
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and the marketing side of the
publishing world is figuring out who the readers are and trying to publish
books that they will buy.
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mary rosenblum
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It is a limitation of
commercial publishing, has always been so to some extent, and is more so
now when the profit margin of publishing is so narrow.
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kungfumama
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are you saying we need to write
well enough so that the reader's universe is close enough to ours to make
the story work?
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mary rosenblum
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That's a good way to put it,
kung.
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mary rosenblum
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I think that your obligation
to the reader is not to write what that reader WANTs, but to write the
story YOU want to tell...
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mary rosenblum
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but to make that story as
accessible as possible...so that a reader CAN share it.
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mary rosenblum
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That's where craft comes in.
That's why we learn and improve our craft. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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We're meeting the reader half
way.
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mary rosenblum
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Now in the economic reality of
the universe, you do have people who write only for readers...it is the
money that matters, not the story...
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mary rosenblum
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so you write that category
romance that fits the formula.
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mary rosenblum
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And that's hardly evil....it's
just a different type of writing.
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mary rosenblum
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Or should I say a different
goal.
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pook
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build it and they will come
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mary rosenblum
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I agree pook...you just need
to build it WELL. :-)
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mary rosenblum
|
This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. If you’re
new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or
the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use
the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar
won’t reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach
me.
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kungfumama
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seems sort of like
impressionistic painting.
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mary rosenblum
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Like how, kung? In what way?
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kungfumama
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well, your placing all these
dots - little pieces of your world - on a canvas.
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, I see. :-) Well, the art
analogy is valid in a way...you are using greasy colored goop to create a
shared reality with the viewer...
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mary rosenblum
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although you retain more
control in visual art...we see what you put on the canvas...
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mary rosenblum
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where we see what we see as we
translate black ink marks into visual images in prose.
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greenfaile
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Mary, how much should the writer
spell out for a reader? Do you think today's readers have a shorter
attention span, or less patience with an author's "set up?"
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mary rosenblum
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It's not really a good idea to
spell out a lot, green. It doesn't have to do with attention span so much
as reality.
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mary rosenblum
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The more you 'spell out' for a
reader, the less that reader shares in that universe.
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mary rosenblum
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Think of it this way... If you
are walking down the street and you see a young couple arguing...
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mary rosenblum
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you are going to figure out
any 'backstory' from what you see and overhear.
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mary rosenblum
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You might hear enough to let
you guess that they are breaking up after a long relationship but aren't
married...
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mary rosenblum
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and that the woman is breaking
it off, not the man.
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mary rosenblum
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Nobody TOLD you that.
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mary rosenblum
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(Unless you are hearing voices
in your head).
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mary rosenblum
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You figured that out from
eavesdropping and watching.
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mary rosenblum
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So if you create a scene where
the reader figures out that same backstory guess...
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mary rosenblum
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from the dialogue and behavior
of the characters without YOU telling us anything...
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mary rosenblum
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the scene will seem very
real...and we have shared in the creation of that scene by inferring what
is going on.
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paja
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author and reader
"write" the story inside the reader's imagination
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mary rosenblum
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Exactly.
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mary rosenblum
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And the story is never the
same...exactly...for any two readers.
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greenfaile
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LOL Ok, I follow you there. One
of my favorite stories types of stories are the ones that end like The Lady
or the Tiger. Is it possible to leave an open ending with the audience
without them feeling jipped? There is that contract with the reader,
wouldn't want to break it.
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mary rosenblum
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It's very difficult, green.
Most readers...while they remember Lady and Tiger vividly...HATE the story
for its open end.
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mary rosenblum
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While you can do an open
end...the story has to be so good that it outweighs the frustrating ending.
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mary rosenblum
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Same thing for endings where
the MC suicides or dies.
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mary rosenblum
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You can surely do that, but
those ends detract from the story rather than add to it...
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mary rosenblum
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so you need to have a story
strong enough to compensate for that subtraction.
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cherley
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I like closure whether good or
bad but I need a finish. I hate to be continued.
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mary rosenblum
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Most readers do and in the
real world of publishing, 'to be continued' doesn't really work...
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mary rosenblum
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unless the piece is sold as a
series and is coming out back to back...there will be a huge gap in time
between part one and part two.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is part of the
relationship with your reader...something to consider.
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mary rosenblum
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What do YOU want from a
writer?
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mary rosenblum
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What is YOUR part of the
bargain as a reader?
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christopher dale
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I don't mind the "To Be
Continued..."s It's the 'BUT YOU NEVER FINISHED **THIS*** STORY!"
- I give you Harry Turttledove's last one in his Colonization series... WAY
too much left hanging....
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mary rosenblum
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That is indeed very
frustrating for the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is my expectation
from a writer...I want you to make me think, I want you to make me feel,
but if I commit myself to sharing your world, to suspending my disbelief
and accepting it as real...
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mary rosenblum
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I don't want you to leave me
with an unfinished story.
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cherley
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I think you read with certain
expectations.
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mary rosenblum
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I think we all do...and our
expectations are not identical either.
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kungfumama
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Just to be clear - To Be
Continued is separate from a hook for the next book, correct?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes it is, kung, and I think
that's where some people get into trouble. I suspect that is what
Turtledove was doing...
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mary rosenblum
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although I didn't read the
book, and he has enough name clout to get away with it, alas.
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mary rosenblum
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A hook for the next series
book is fine, but the main plot in THIS book really does need closure if
you are going to satisfy your readers.
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greenfaile
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What other expectations? You
mentioned suicide, surely we can't all live happily ever after?
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mary rosenblum
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Of course not. :-) Very few of
my stories end that way, that's for sure. :-) But they don't end in a state
of tragedy that will send the reader out to leap from a bridge either. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Real life is full of good and
bad and even if the main plot problem is resolved in a positive manner...
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mary rosenblum
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you can end with the reader
knowing that more troubles await your MC.
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christopher dale
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At least tie all the loose ends
up. ***WARNING SPOILER*** In my novel, I give the appearance that the
antagonist is finally killed. But inthe start of the next story, we find
out that he's jsut "seriously wounded" and survives it.
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mary rosenblum
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That's a good bridge between
books, chris.
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pook
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does this apply only to fantasy?
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mary rosenblum
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Oh no, we're talking about
storytelling in general here, pook.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We’re
talking about the relationship of reader to writer. If you’re new here,
remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word
bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the
ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won’t
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
can't all live happily ever after?
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kungfumama
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you could have an MC suicide if
you pass the torch, couldn't you? Terry Brooks has done that.
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mary rosenblum
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YOu can have a MC suicide for
many reasons, kung.
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mary rosenblum
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Novice writers tend to grab
for that ending with the assumption that it will move the reader powerfully
and add to the story...is a cheap way to increase the power of the story...
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mary rosenblum
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when that is actually not
true. But I am not saying at all that you should never have your MC
suicide.
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mary rosenblum
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But it's a good idea to make
it really necessary...and it will detract from the power of your story for
most readers to at least some degree.
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mary rosenblum
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But here is a good example of
what I was saying earlier...your obligation is to the story rather than the
reader...
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mary rosenblum
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and if your story the way you
want to tell it requires that your MC kill himself/herself...
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mary rosenblum
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then that is what you need to
do...BUT....you need to make the story powerful enough that it works for
the readers.
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janecj333
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while trying to tie up all the
characters and their motivations at the end of a novel makes me worry,
sometimes, that too many people have come on stage and the reader will be
overwhelmed
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mary rosenblum
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Oh that can sure happen, jane.
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mary rosenblum
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That's why it's a very good
idea to tie up some of your plot ends well before the end of the story...
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mary rosenblum
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or that last chapter can be
nothing more than a flurry of end-knotting.
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paja
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do you have to
"recite" all the outcomes for all the characters at the end?
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mary rosenblum
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Not a good idea, paja...it can
be very transparent. :-)
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greenfaile
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then it would be better to let
the reader know, early on, that a death is coming. Some sort of hint?
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mary rosenblum
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There's no right or wrong
there, green...it depends entirely on the story.
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mary rosenblum
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A hint can foreshadow events
to come and arouse reader curiosity...
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mary rosenblum
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OR...it can flatten the
surprise later on. It simply depends.
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mary rosenblum
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I just finished working on a
novel first chapter for another writer where we know in the first few
pages...
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mary rosenblum
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that there WILL be a terrorist
attack. But the question of 'when, where, how' keeps the reader
reading...it doesn't spoil a later surprise...
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mary rosenblum
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but instead builds suspence.
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mary rosenblum
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But then there are stories
where later violence, say, is so clearly telegraphed early on that when it
finally happens we feel 'it took you long enough'.
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kungfumama
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Mary, were there any conclusions
drawn by the panel at Fantasy Con?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, kung.
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mary rosenblum
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Although each of us on the
panel came at it from a slightly different angle...the consumate feeling
was that...
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mary rosenblum
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as a writer, you are not
obligated to please any reader, but rather you are obligated to make YOUR
story as accessible to the reader as possible...
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mary rosenblum
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as good as possible, in other
words.
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mary rosenblum
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Now this does leave out the
writer who is writing to sell books first and foremost...
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mary rosenblum
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and there you really ARE
writing for the readers who will pay money for your book...
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mary rosenblum
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I'm curious here.
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mary rosenblum
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The question of the reader's
obligation to the writer had a wider response.
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paja
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i've never thought of the word
"obligated" w/writing b/4, but it's the right word. We have an
obligation of high-end craft and integrity of the story. Cool.
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mary rosenblum
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I had to think about what my
obligation is, as reader.
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geezer
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my daughter was outraged by the
ending in Call of the Wild. So, she wrote her own ending.
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mary rosenblum
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Cool, geezer...that's how I
got started writing, actually. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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That and the fact that there
were VERY few cool woman main characters in books I was reading. LOL
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cherley
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I think that's because we have
read many more books than we have written
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I think when you WRITE
you are thinking about your obligation to the reader, even if not
consciously.
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greenfaile
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So what were the panels thoughts
on reader obligation?
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mary rosenblum
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It varied from one person's
feeling that he had NO obligation to a writer, to a more common feeling
that the obligation...
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mary rosenblum
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was to give the writer a
chance to in a sense 'teach us' what he/she was doing if it was not an easy
read.
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mary rosenblum
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The examples there being
writers like Falkner, Hesse, Joyce, whose work is much harder to
comprehend. (And I still fail with Joyce. Oh well).
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paja
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how can a reader teach the
writer?
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mary rosenblum
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I think it's a matter of
stretching your boundaries.
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mary rosenblum
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Many people read only what is
comfortable and entertaining...doesn't require any work on their parts...
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mary rosenblum
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Nice characters, easy to
follow plot...easily gratifying.
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mary rosenblum
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But sometimes you pick up a
book that while well written is challenging...
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mary rosenblum
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less instantly gratifying.
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mary rosenblum
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And often, by persevering,
giving yourself time to become comfortable and congnizant of what the
writer is trying...
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mary rosenblum
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to achieve, you will discover
that there IS a lot of power there. You just had to work harder to discover
it.
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mary rosenblum
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And this does not mean you
should slog through something that is merely bad writing.
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mary rosenblum
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But it's also a way to grow as
a writer. You discover other ways to do things.
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geezer
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Q: Does art reflect society or
does society reflect art? If the second, doesn't the artist have an
obligation to be uplifting?
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mary rosenblum
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I think it's pretty clearly
the first, geeze.
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mary rosenblum
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And while you can certainly
make people think (my favorite pasttime) or be 'uplifting' in the course of
your story...should that be your primary goal?
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kungfumama
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I find that I mentally give a
book by an author new to me three chances - and if they hit that fourth
chance, I get rid of the book.
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mary rosenblum
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I tend to persevere if I am
not editing. :-) I have found writers whose work really didn't begin to connect
until I had gotten used to their process and language.
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mary rosenblum
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But if I'm editing I might as
well go work on student assignments.
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cherley
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I usually know by the end of the
first page if I like a book
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cherley
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I usually try to finish a book
once I start it, sometimes hoping it will get better
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mary rosenblum
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I have to say that I rarely
know whether I will like a book after the first page. :-) But I sure won't
finish a badly written book. I have better things to do with my time. :-)
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janecj333
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the best reviewers often give
precise, if uncomfortable, information to the writer about his work
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mary rosenblum
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It can certainly be useful if
you agree with a reviewer's evaluation of story, jane.
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greenfaile
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I always finish too, sometimes I
find the beginning that would have hooked me is later in the book.
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greenfaile
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But its the thought provoking
works that stand the test of time. The ones that make you think. A slow
read but you can savor it. Not a sound bite. The trick is making the reader
want to work.
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mary rosenblum
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I agree, green. Let's face
it...there is no ONE type of fiction and there is no ONE reason for writing
fiction...
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mary rosenblum
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and it varies from something
that is like a handful of M&Ms...a nice treat, tasty and not much
work...to something that you have to really work at...
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mary rosenblum
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or it makes you think long
after you've put it aside.
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mary rosenblum
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They are all valid forms
written for valid reasons.
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janecj333
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more than once I have written a
compendium of the bad things reviewers say about the books they read, and
then I try not to make those mistakes in what I'm writing :)
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mary rosenblum
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Although a shake of salt is
good, too, jane. :-) Reviewers live in their own world, have their own
competitions, and those reviews are NOT entirely objective and
altruistic...
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mary rosenblum
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even if they SHOULD be. :-)
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cherley
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Do you think most readers will
continue reading a book if they are getting nothing they can relate to or
be entertained by?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, probably not unless they
are obsessive about finishing every book they begin...why should they?
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mary rosenblum
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And if they do, it's probably
less likely that they will buy your NEXT book. :-)
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janecj333
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well, it's certainly likely that
the reviewer has never written a book
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mary rosenblum
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That's often true, Jane.
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cherley
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That's why there are so many
different kinds of books. Like a friend of mine loves political books, I
find them boring.
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mary rosenblum
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Of course. If we only had one
reader we'd only have a limited range of books.
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greenfaile
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Readers have different purposes
in reading, to gain knowledge, to escape, to kill a few hours. My attention
is determined by what my objective is. So I try to write with that in mind.
New authors don't have the type of "credit" Stephan King does,
less 2nd chances from a reader.
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mary rosenblum
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And that is a reality,
green....the best you will ever have to be is on that first book.
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mary rosenblum
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That does NOT mean you have
license to be 'bad' afterward....you hurt yourself in the end...
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mary rosenblum
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but that first book has
nothing to sell it but the quality of the story.
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cherley
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So basically be true to what you
are representing and know if you do it well someone will be interested.
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mary rosenblum
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In the long run, Cherley, I
think that is really the best way to look at it.
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mary rosenblum
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If YOU care about what you are
writing, it will color your prose and add depth to it. Your passion will
seep into your words.
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mary rosenblum
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And there are a huge range of
readers out there. Some of them will connect with your passion.
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cherley
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my grandsons teacher is
publishing her class this week.
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mary rosenblum
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That's so cool, cherley! One
of the benefits of the falling cost of self publishing.
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janecj333
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when I pick up something that
has amazingly good writing, it doesn't matter the topic...these things
stand out
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mary rosenblum
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That's true jane...and it's a
great way to expand your reading horizons.
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mary rosenblum
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I tend to read things because
they are powerful even if it's not something I might pick up for a little
'escape' reading. :-)
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christopher dale
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Mary - isn't that when the
characters "start writing their own story"?
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mary rosenblum
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I'm going to have to do a
Forum on this 'characters writing their own story ' thing.
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mary rosenblum
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In one sense that's a good
thing and in another sense it is a bad thing.
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mary rosenblum
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The trick is to know which is
happening in YOUR story. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I'm going to have to
bring this to a close.
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mary rosenblum
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At least we got the tech
difficulty taken care of. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Gonna have to put a lock on
the stage door when I'm not here! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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Drop in here tomorrow morning
for our casual chat.
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christopher dale
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Thanks Mary... Um. What time is
"tomorrow morning"?
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mary rosenblum
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Same time as this Forum...
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mary rosenblum
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It's morning for me here on
the Pacific coast...10 AM.
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mary rosenblum
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11 Mt, 12 Central, 1 PM east
coast time.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll post the transcript in
the usual place.... writing craft: Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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So essentially...you owe your
reader YOUR story, but written as powerfully and well as you can possibly
make it.
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mary rosenblum
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And as a reader...stretch your
boundaries. Give the writer a chance to show you a story you might not
otherwise have read.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a great day all!
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mary rosenblum
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See you in the morning !
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