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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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Welcome to our Tuesday Forum!
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and today
we're talking about the process of revision. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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Just an announcement before we
get started...
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mary rosenblum
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Glimmer Train is having a
contest...
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mary rosenblum
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the first prize is 2000 and
publication, and second and third also get money, but only get a mention in
the magazine.
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mary rosenblum
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You can find details on the
website.
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speckledorf
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Just wanted to share...I
received my diploma today. It looks so good!
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mary rosenblum
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Hey, GREAT, speck! Hang it on
the wall. It represents a LOT of work!
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mary rosenblum
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I wanted to talk about
revision today...
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mary rosenblum
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I've been working on the
'revision' section for the novel course...
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mary rosenblum
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and that, plus what I've seen
from my students has really set me thinking about revision.
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mary rosenblum
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Most courses don't really
teach new writers HOW to revise...you sort of learn by doing.
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mary rosenblum
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And I think the reason that so
many new writers seem to HATE it, even fear it...while few pros dislike
it...
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mary rosenblum
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is that it can seem so
overwhelming if you just go at it.
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mary rosenblum
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Do, please, use your private
message feature to chat during the forums. It gets hard to read for those
people with slow servers, if there is a lot of chat
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mary rosenblum
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I'll wait until you all are
done. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Revision is about as important
as your original story idea itself...
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mary rosenblum
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because rarely is your story
its best at the end of draft one.
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mary rosenblum
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And you can't see
that...because you know your story too well.
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mary rosenblum
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And this goes for nonfiction
as well...
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mary rosenblum
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You are too familiar with what
you MEANT to say, everything fits, everything works.
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mary rosenblum
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Later on, with some distance,
so that you have forgotten exactly what you were thinking as you wrote that
article or story...
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mary rosenblum
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you find amazine holes, gaps,
loose ends, weak places where the character acts unexpectedly.
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mary rosenblum
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And they stand out, because
our noses are no longer pressed to the page, so to speak.
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mary rosenblum
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Even a really good idea will
not sell if the writing is poor.
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mary rosenblum
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And trying to do perfect prose
in a first draft means you are trying to wear both author and editor hat at
the same time.
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mary rosenblum
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I can't make both those areas
of my brain work at the same time. I either have to be editor OR writer.
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, when you sit down
to that stack of pages...it can be really daunting.
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mary rosenblum
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Where do you start, what do
you do first?
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mary rosenblum
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Most people just wade in...and
pretty soon they're once again so close to what they're doing that they
have no perspective.
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forest elf
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oh, yeah...like my character
pulling up the throw?
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mary rosenblum
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You mean pulling the throw up?
LOL
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mary rosenblum
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Yep, like that elf.
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mary rosenblum
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I've found that breaking down
your revision means it takes less time to make a 'pass' through the ms...
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mary rosenblum
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you can focus on what you are
doing...and you really do use a different mental state for each 'level' of
revision.
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mary rosenblum
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The time factor is REALLY big
when that stack of pages is about 400 high!
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mary rosenblum
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Keep your 'creative' brain
turned on for that first pass...
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mary rosenblum
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Here, you are reading for
story.
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mary rosenblum
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Does the plot work, do events
follow logically, do your subplots tie back into your main plot...
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mary rosenblum
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in a story, are the implied
actions that happen off stage clear to the reader?
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mary rosenblum
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Does your MC's behavior make
sense? ]
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mary rosenblum
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Don't worry about grammar,
description, active voice...any of that stuff...
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mary rosenblum
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Just read it through and see
if it works.
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mary rosenblum
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This is actually where I give
my work to readers.
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mary rosenblum
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They get it after I've decided
the story as a whole works and before I really delve into craft and
character minutiae.
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mary rosenblum
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This is because at this stage,
it is still 'wet clay' to me.
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mary rosenblum
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I can toss half of it out and
change it if needed...no sweat.
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mary rosenblum
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Once I have committed to this
story shape and started to do the finer revisions, I am more resistant to
big changes.
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gskearney
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I have a question about
character "voice." When or where should you really start worrying
about realizing that in your writing?
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mary rosenblum
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I would work on that, and
characterization in depth, in your second revision, gary.
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mary rosenblum
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Your story overall works.
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mary rosenblum
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Now it's time to increase the
magnification if you will...and look more closely at the ms scene by scene.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the time to look at
characters closely. Do they have consistent voices? Will readers infer
their emotions from their body langauge, actions, thoughts sufficiently?
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mary rosenblum
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Does their dialogue work?
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oddangel
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What do you do if you think your
story doesn't work?
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mary rosenblum
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Ha, I have one like that right
now, odd!
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mary rosenblum
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Actually, the first thing to
think about is whether or not your feeling that
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mary rosenblum
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this doesn't work is
valid...or is it your own insecurities about YOU as a writer?
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mary rosenblum
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Most of us, when we start out,
are pretty insecure about what we're doing and we haven't had publishing
success and reader feedback ...
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mary rosenblum
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to assure us that yep, we're
doing what we think we're doing.
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mary rosenblum
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I thought very few of my
stories worked as a novice writer...even when I won awards for them, LOL!
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mary rosenblum
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BUT...if you really do feel
your story doesn't work, and it's not your personal insecurities, there are
a couple of things to do.
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mary rosenblum
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Give it to a couple of good
readers and quizz them about it after...
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mary rosenblum
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did you get this? Did that
work for you? Listen to their reactions. Enthusiastic? Lukewarm?
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mary rosenblum
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If it still doesn't seem to
work, put it aside. Wait for an aha moment and move on to something else.
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, this can be a trap
if you ALWAYS move on to something else...
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mary rosenblum
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which is why I said you have
to learn what is YOU and waht is a real concern.
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oddangel
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So, give them the first draft?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. I think it's a BIG
mistake to give readers a polished version.
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mary rosenblum
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If it's polished why do you
want a reader?
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mary rosenblum
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Give 'em a first draft and
tell 'em it's a first draft and that you mean to change it.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of folk will mumble nice
nothings if they think a story is finished...
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mary rosenblum
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but tell 'em its a first draft
and you need help..
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mary rosenblum
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and you get all kinds of
suggestions. None may work for you, but they can often spark that 'aha'
moment.
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gail
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Gasp! You give your work to
readers at such a fledgling state?! How can you?! I hold back until I
figure I've worked out all the kinks...but then, I feel much more resistant
to change things, too. Hmmm... You may have a very good point here. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Ha, I generally stick my poor
long suffering readers with stuff that isnt' even spell checked and they
have to live with it.
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mary rosenblum
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I never show polished drafts
to anyone but the editor they are sent to.
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mary rosenblum
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Why should I?
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mary rosenblum
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I don't intend to change 'em
at that point.
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mary rosenblum
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I have a new reader...a woman
who is writing mystery, a former student of mine...and she was SHOCKED by
the first draft I sent her...
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mary rosenblum
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I did warn her. LOL... It was
FULL of plot holes, rough characterization, etc. I don't think she believed
I could write any way but waht she read in the mags. She knows better now,
heheh.
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gail
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So, are you saying editors won't
ask for a story/article to be changed? Or, are you saying you only
compromise when appropriate on your work?
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mary rosenblum
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oh, they'll ask for
changes...I've got two revision requests from my editor at Tor that are
signficant changes...
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mary rosenblum
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will require some rewriting rather
than tweaking...
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mary rosenblum
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but they're good suggestions
and if one of my readers had made 'em, I would have followed 'em then...
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mary rosenblum
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but they didn't.
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mary rosenblum
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But when I'm happy with my
story, I'm only going to discuss changes with my editor...
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mary rosenblum
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he's paying for it, after all.
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tkat_2
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In one of the LR assignments I
had a whole page was removed. It helped move the story better.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm not surprised, tkat.
Nearly everybody needs to learn to leave stuff out as a novice writer.
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mary rosenblum
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I have many published stories
from my early years that I could cut by about a fifth now.
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gail
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So, what sort of criteria do you
base your acceptance of those more major revisions?
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mary rosenblum
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Whether it improves the story,
gail. That's it.
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mary rosenblum
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If I don't think it improves
the story, we argue. David had three requests when we started out...we
compromised on two, and I agree with him on those.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and today
we're talking about the process of revision. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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marly
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That's really helpful, Mary.
I've been "polishing" a story to send to my critiquers, but now
they're gonna get it a little sooner. :)
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mary rosenblum
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You know, one of the things I
found early on, Marly, is that criticism of your work will always smart...
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mary rosenblum
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even when it's valid. And if
you KNOW this story is rough..you have given yourself permission to hear
criticism ...you KNOW it's rough.
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mary rosenblum
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If you give a reader something
that is polished...at the back of your brain what you want is praise.
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mary rosenblum
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I give my work to readers when
I'm not happy with it yet and I DO want help in the form of their input.
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mary rosenblum
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They always find something
I've overlooked!
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mary rosenblum
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It's like the mystery I sent
to Jane, my reader.
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mary rosenblum
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I knew it didn't quite work,
and I hadn't figured out how to deal with the problem...
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mary rosenblum
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and she confirmed that yep, it
didn't work and offered her suggestions. They didn't work, but as I reacted
to them (no, that won't work) I came up with the way to make it work. :-)
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gskearney
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To get a little away from the
point, criticism does hurt, people are picking on your children here!
That's why it's important to be as polite as possible. It's not an ego
contest. We're all trying to get better. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, absolutely. There is NO
reason EVER to be harsh about saying what needs to be said.
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mary rosenblum
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The whole point of critiqueing
is to tell someone how to make their piece better, not tell 'em what is
wrong with it.
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t green
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so once you get your story
(let's say a novel) the way you like it, then you go into the details...
where do you start? at the beginning? or just pick a scene, any scene?
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mary rosenblum
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WE have sort of gotten off the
track here, t, thanks... Yes...
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mary rosenblum
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I would always begin a
revision pass from the start and work through to the end.
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mary rosenblum
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In a short story, it's not so
critical, but in a novel, you are keeping a very large picture in your head
as you revise...
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mary rosenblum
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and small changes early on
will affect events later.
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mary rosenblum
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WE have our fist pass...the
'story' pass...
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mary rosenblum
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and on the second revision,
you can focus on your characters, their actions in the scenes...
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mary rosenblum
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This is actually where I do
most of my characterization. I know them in draft one, but I have to make
sure the readers know them, too, in Two.
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gskearney
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Too bad there's not a temporary
Alzheimer's pill, so you could read your story with naive eyes. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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Well, there are two ways to
achieve that actually, gary. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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One is to put it away for a
year. Takes time!
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mary rosenblum
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THe other is to write
something else. At least for me, I have found that if I shelve a story,
long or short, and write another...as soon as I am deeply...
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mary rosenblum
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involved in the new story, I
forget the old one. Limited ram I guess! LOL
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mary rosenblum
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And then, when I've finished
the first draft of the new story or synopsized the new novel...THEN I go
back to the waiting draft. Voila. Clear eyes.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and today
we're talking about the process of revision. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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gail
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As a novice, I fret over the small
stuff. It really challenges me to let someone read a "raw" piece
that hasn't been spell or grammar checked. When I do that editing, though,
I also edit for plot consistency and characterization, et al. But, if I
understand you correctly, these should all be done as separate editing
processes?
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mary rosenblum
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It will make your life easier,
gail, especially if you're very meticulous.
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mary rosenblum
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I save my third revision for
the grammar nits.
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mary rosenblum
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This is where I check for
passive voice, tighten sentences, find stronger and more vivid ways to say
things...make description really shine.
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mary rosenblum
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In each revision, you are
focusing more and more with your 'editor' brain and less and less with your
'creative' brain.
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mary rosenblum
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In the first revision you are
focusing on story issues...
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mary rosenblum
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in the second, you are paying
attention to characters and action...
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mary rosenblum
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and in the third you're down
to words.
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mary rosenblum
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Now this is not the ONLY way
to revise for pete's sake!
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mary rosenblum
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You'll find what works for
you.
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mary rosenblum
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BUt if revision seems
daunting, then try breaking it down to this format and see if it doesn't
help you.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and today
we're talking about the process of revision. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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mary rosenblum
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One of the problems with
trying to accomplish EVERYTHING in one pass is that you are dealing with
different levels of examination here...
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mary rosenblum
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if you're paying attention to
characters and how they speak, interact, act...
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mary rosenblum
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you are probably not going to
be focused on the individual words...
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mary rosenblum
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and if you stop to focus on
the individual words, you lose the 'continuity' of the flow of action.
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johnnycat15
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Loaded question, how do you know
when you're done revising?
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mary rosenblum
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That is always a tough call,
and remember, if you are an unpublished writer...
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mary rosenblum
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that you can't be rejected if
you haven't sent the ms off yet...so ask yourself...
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mary rosenblum
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if that piece REALLY isn't
done yet or are you just scared to commit it to the mail?
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mary rosenblum
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And in reality, my rule of
thumb is when you find yourself changing only words...
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mary rosenblum
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you tweak some dialogue here,
you improve a bit of description there...
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mary rosenblum
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then you're done.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...well, you don't
realize this yet...
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mary rosenblum
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there IS no absolute standard
of perfection and you WILL work with an editor.
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mary rosenblum
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That editor's idea of
perfection isn't quite yours...
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mary rosenblum
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and your perfect, polished
sentence may 'clunk' for him...
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mary rosenblum
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so if you're fixing tiny
tweaky things...you're wasting your time.
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mary rosenblum
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DO one good 'tweaky'
pass...those words, phrases, etc....and then you are DONE>
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mary rosenblum
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You really can tweak and
polish forever. Trust me!
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mary rosenblum
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I have a published writer
friend who has managed to avoid publishing for about eight years now with
that technique. LOL
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mary rosenblum
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I think that may be the
hardest concept for novice writers to understand..
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mary rosenblum
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that there is no absolute
standard.
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mary rosenblum
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What you think is perfect,
someone else will not...
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mary rosenblum
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so the main focus of your
revision process is...
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mary rosenblum
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does this story work?
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bengalrose
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Ah, thanks, Mary. I tend to be a
tweek-meister. I definitely fall into THAT trap. "It can't go out yet,
I'm still tweaking it!!"
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mary rosenblum
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Yep. COMMON problem!
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mary rosenblum
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The process in nonfiction is a
bit different, because your're not usually dealing with characterization
unless you're writing personal narrative...
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mary rosenblum
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but even there...do a first
revision for logic, order, did I make my points clearly and in logical
order.
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mary rosenblum
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Do a revision where you pay
attention to the style and 'voice' you're using for this particular
magazine. Does it fit?
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mary rosenblum
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Then do a 'tweak' run to
polish the words.
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mary rosenblum
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I always tell myself I need to
leave something for my editor to do, LOL.
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mary rosenblum
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The one thing that you DO need
to think about is that darn spell checker.
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mary rosenblum
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Spell checkers do NOT catch
misspellings when they spell a real word!
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mary rosenblum
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So when you are tweaking, read
for that.
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gail
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I notice how the editing process
seems to reflect the writing process: Does the story work?/Just get the
story down; Are the characters believable?/Fill in some characterization
and setting details through dialogue and action; etc. Is this reflection of
the writing process intentional?
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mary rosenblum
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Well, I"m not sure how
you work, gail, but for me that IS the writing process...editing is PART of
writing for me.
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mary rosenblum
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My first draft is only 'get
the story down'.
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mary rosenblum
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My second draft, technically
editing, is deepen the characterization, make the scenes work...
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mary rosenblum
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and my third draft is 'tweak
and polish'.
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mary rosenblum
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And that's it for me. It goes
out.
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mary rosenblum
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Working with an editor, I'
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mary rosenblum
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l'll be incorporating any
story changes he/she wants, but it's my editor's job to do the tweak and
polish...
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mary rosenblum
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and I can agree or disagree.
And I usually agree...words are their business.
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gail
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Okay, so after thirty edits, I'm
probably just tweaking, huh?
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mary rosenblum
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ohmygosh! I feel faint! LOL.
Gail, I suspect you are probably polishing!
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gskearney
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It's probably time to
re-recommend The 10% solution by Ken Rand here. It's a great take on self
editing, and it's not expensive. --gk
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, good point, gary.
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mary rosenblum
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It has gone up to 6.99 as I
recall...but it's a lovely 'how to' on tweaking.
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mary rosenblum
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And will help you recognize
some of your own bad habits, prosewise.
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mary rosenblum
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You have to order it...but you
can get it from www.fairwoodpress.com
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mary rosenblum
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This is the Tuesday Forum with
me, Mary Rosenblum, LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer and today
we're talking about the process of revision. If you're new here, remember
that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble'
next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a
question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question to reach me.
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oddangel
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have you gotten better at
guessing how long each stage takes
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mary rosenblum
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Oh yes, odd...
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mary rosenblum
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You'll learn your own writing
habits and how you work...
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mary rosenblum
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depends on your life and how
much writing time you can squeeze out of it.
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avatar
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Best any writer will ever
invest!
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mary rosenblum
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I agree.
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mary rosenblum
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You'll learn a lot by applying
it to your prose...
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mary rosenblum
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and it can make a huge
difference, since most novice writers are WAY too wordy.
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tory
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Point well taken about three
passes, Mary. However, I've found , as a student, I need to give a few more
than three. I think I'd made three passess BEFORE I learned about action
tags, that sort of thing. After only three my work would have screamed for
the slush pile on its own1
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mary rosenblum
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WEll, you're kind of mixing up
revision with learning, tory.
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mary rosenblum
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As you learn more powerful
techniques, you end up revising yet again.
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mary rosenblum
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This is what happens to people
who start learning to write by working on a novel...
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mary rosenblum
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by the end of the novel, they
are usually SO much better that they end up doing a LOT of revision on the
early chapters.
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mary rosenblum
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The faster you learn
techniques, the more you'll revise work. I went through this stage!
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mary rosenblum
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One way to look at revision is
that it is not 'housekeeping'...
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mary rosenblum
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but rather part of the writing
process.
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mary rosenblum
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Most people really aren't done
with what they are writing until they have revised a couple of times at
least...
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mary rosenblum
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so it's not a chore like
sweeping the sidewalk, but rather part of building the house.
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mary rosenblum
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And to be honest, I LOVE that
second draft.
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mary rosenblum
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I HATE first drafts, I'd pay
someone to write 'em for me.
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mary rosenblum
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But I love draft two.
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mary rosenblum
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Draft three is easy, just
buffing and touching up.
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mary rosenblum
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When we first start out, we're
so impatient to get our work out to editors (that's BEFORE we start
amassing all those rejection slips, lol)...
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mary rosenblum
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and revision seems like a time
consuming roadblock.
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mary rosenblum
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You learn that your story
really isn't so perfect at the end of draft one as you think. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Of course, we have the other
end of the spectrum, ahem, Gail...where you never STOP revising. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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One thing to keep in mind is
that different types of revsion require different 'distances' from that
prose, be it fiction or non...
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mary rosenblum
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If you are looking at
structure...or story...you are standing back and looking at the whole
landscape.
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mary rosenblum
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If you are dealing with
characterization or style for nonfiction...you're much 'closer' to the
words, but still paying attention to the whole...
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mary rosenblum
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and when you get to tweaking
single words, you are no longer seeing the whole...
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mary rosenblum
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just the sentences and
paragraphs in front of your nose..
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mary rosenblum
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and this is why trying to
combine all types of revision into one pass tends to get you into trouble.
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mary rosenblum
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You lose 'focus'...you're
either too close or two distanced.
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mary rosenblum
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And DO realize that while you
want your ms to look professional and be as 'clean' as possible...
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mary rosenblum
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you will NOT be rejected for a
few typos or misspelled words!
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mary rosenblum
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Nor for messing up a bit on
proper format.
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mary rosenblum
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And remember that perfection
does not exist...
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mary rosenblum
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and your editor will change
things to suit his or her idea of how this should read...
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mary rosenblum
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so don't polish endlessly.
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mary rosenblum
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It is also true that every
writer will find a way to revise that works for him/her...
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mary rosenblum
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and it may be different from
the process I described here...but if you're feeling flummoxed by the
process...this is a place to start.
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mary rosenblum
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My writer friend Sage writes
one draft. One.
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mary rosenblum
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And she polishes every word
and paragraph as she goes...
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mary rosenblum
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and it takes her about 2 years
to write a novel draft, but when she finishes that first draft she is done.
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avatar
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How much editer interaction is
there for short stories?
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mary rosenblum
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Usually not much, avatar.
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mary rosenblum
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An editor might tweak
sentences, do a bit of cut and tighten, but rarely will you get asked for
much in the way of content changes...
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mary rosenblum
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Since Analog is probably your
market, Stan asked me to add about two sentences of clarification to the
novelette I sold him.
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mary rosenblum
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That's about typical.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, in short fiction,
if the editor wants a change in the story..
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mary rosenblum
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that editor won't accept the
story, but will return it with a letter telling you what problem he/she
found in the story.
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mary rosenblum
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If you revise the story and
fix that problem, you can submit again, and the editor might buy it.
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mary rosenblum
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What they do is to polish your
prose...usually not much for my stories... and you can argue or not when
you see the galley proofs.
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mary rosenblum
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In novel...
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mary rosenblum
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you will usually get a
'revision' letter from the editor...
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mary rosenblum
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with specific page citations
and requests for content changes...
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mary rosenblum
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and you'll return an entire
new draft.
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mary rosenblum
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The editor will then do line
edit changes on your prose, and you'll get the edited draft to copy edit...
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mary rosenblum
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at the same time the pro copy
editor works on it.
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mary rosenblum
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That draft will incorporate
your changes and the editor's line edits, and you can contest those line
edits if you need to, but they're usually pretty mechanical...
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mary rosenblum
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Not every house will work this
way. Some small presses don't give the author a copy of the edited page
proofs...
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mary rosenblum
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a friend of mine was horrfied
by the first printing of his mystery. I think we found something ten typos
on page one!
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mary rosenblum
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If you're publishing with a
small press house, you might want to make sure you get to look at the pages
before they go to press!
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mary rosenblum
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He copy edited the book before
the second printing, by the way.
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mary rosenblum
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But as you face revision, do
realize that it is part of the writing process, and treat it with that
level of respect. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
'Oregon hour." :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I hope this helps
you...believe me, I can tell whether or not a student has revised. LOL
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smilingsunflower
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Mary, tips for successful school
visits?
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mary rosenblum
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What kind of school visit,
smiling?
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smilingsunflower
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high school writing
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, cool. I love those!
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smilingsunflower
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what shouldn't you do? what
doesn't work?
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mary rosenblum
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I sort of play 'em by
ear...sometimes the class is more interested in asking 'how to become a
writer' questions...
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mary rosenblum
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and sometimes we do a hands on
'develop a story' session...
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mary rosenblum
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using input from the class...
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mary rosenblum
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The thing I've seen NOT work,
when I've done class visits iwth other writers...
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mary rosenblum
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is when someone stands in
front of the class and lectures.
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mary rosenblum
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I always try to get the kids
involved. Lots of times I bring props...galley proofs, contracts, edited
ms...that sort of thing.
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mary rosenblum
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Ask what they like and why
they like it...
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mary rosenblum
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use it to talk about what
makes good fiction or good writing...
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mary rosenblum
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stuff like that. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Most of them are at least
reading Stephen King LOL.
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mary rosenblum
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Well have a good day.
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mary rosenblum
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I think I'll drop into our
casual chat early tomorrow, see if anyone is here...
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mary rosenblum
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I have a doctor's appointment
at ten my time, so I'll probably come by an hour earlier.
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mary rosenblum
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So if any of you are
earlibirds, I'll see you then!
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good day and I'll post
this in the usual spot...Writing Craft, Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Bye, all!
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