Forum Transcripts

Thinking Clearly: Handling Thought in Fiction 6/9/06

Event start time:

Fri Jun 09 19:05:13 2006

Event end time:

Fri Jun 09 20:31:07 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

I hope you've had a great week and have had good writing time.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Handling thought is one of the things that troubles novice writers the most.

mary rosenblum

I'm going to start the ball rolling here with a question sent to me by someone who couldn't be here...

info

Is using 'he/she wondered' the same as he/she thought? Seems to me that it is.

mary rosenblum

Sure, info. Was he really that stupid, she wondered, or was he faking it?

mary rosenblum

Wondered simply implies a 'thought question'.

mary rosenblum

Here's J Forrest's question:

mary rosenblum

In a story written in past tense, should thoughts be presented in the present tense or past tense? For example: "The moon isn't out yet," she thought. "It will be a nice night to go stargazing." Or "The moon wasn't out yet," she thought...

mary rosenblum

This is the basic division of thought.

mary rosenblum

Direct thought...in other words you 'quote' the character's EXACT thoughts...

mary rosenblum

or paraphrased thought where you don't quote the exact thoughts...

mary rosenblum

but rather render the meaning of the thought.

mary rosenblum

And if the story is written in past tense, the paraphrased thought is written in pat these.

mary rosenblum

The moon wasn't out yet, she thought... is paraphrased thought.

mary rosenblum

This is the 'gist' of what she actually is thinking.

mary rosenblum

And her actual thoughts might be more like'; Moon...and a glance at the black sky...

mary rosenblum

with the nonverbal awareness that it's not there.

mary rosenblum

The moon isn't out yet, she thought ...tells us that these words form in her mind: The moon isn't out yet.

mary rosenblum

Now we do think in complete sentences from time to time...

mary rosenblum

but a lot of the time we think in single words or nonverbal awarenesses...

mary rosenblum

and those just don't translate very well.

mary rosenblum

And...we all are experts on humans...we've had a lifetime to study them.

mary rosenblum

So when a character 'thinks' in dialogue...our hindbrain whispers 'phony' in our ears.

mary rosenblum

We really don't think in coherent dialogue-type sentences that much.

mary rosenblum

At least most people don't. :-)

xana

Mary, thinking in single words is really easy to understand when one is trying to learn a foreign language: sentences do NOT come naturally at first!

mary rosenblum

Yes, Xana, and we DO think in single words. Often expletives!

mary rosenblum

It's the long monologues that sound clunky and phony.

mary rosenblum

Oh no! She grabbed for the falling vase.

mary rosenblum

She probably thinks 'Oh no!' or something more colorful!

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

snarryfan

is there a way to designate thought from action? Some use italics and some say not to. Which is right?

mary rosenblum

snarry, you, the author should be able to make it very clear what is action and what is thought.

mary rosenblum

No other punctuation is necessary.

mary rosenblum

And most publishers DO tend to italicize direct thought (I HATE that) which is a good reason not to use much...

mary rosenblum

direct thought. Italicized text 'sounds different' to readers.

mary rosenblum

It makes that thought stand out like a shout. That can work against you in many scenes.

speckledorf

Telepathic thought is italicized though right?

mary rosenblum

That's how I handle it and many other SF authors.

mary rosenblum

I also use it for machine voices, loudspeaker announcements, anything that should not sound like a person talking.

mary rosenblum

Snarry, here's an example.

mary rosenblum

Dawn grabbed her coat from the hook, her blood boiling. Stupid girl. What was she thinking of? She slammed through the door, gasping as the icy air burned her bare face. No way was she covering for Sharan again. She fumbled her scarf from her pocket, wound it around her face...

mary rosenblum

I don't think you have an trouble telling thought from action here.

info

What if your thoughts come in other forms? As an example, "she had to wonder if he was really right."..

mary rosenblum

That's just paraphrased thought, info.

mary rosenblum

You're rendering the meaning of whatever is actually passing through her head.

mary rosenblum

Amie stared after Brent. She had to wonder if he was really right or just showing off.

mary rosenblum

Paraphrased thought simply merges more seamlessly into the prose.

mary rosenblum

It is less likely to jar the reader or sound 'unreal'.

geezer

My LR instructor wouldn't let me use italics for a letter. When the stary was published, they put the letter in italics.

mary rosenblum

That's the silly rules of publishing, geeze.

mary rosenblum

I don't let my students use italic either. :-)

mary rosenblum

In the publishing world, which is still stumbling around in the typewriter era...

mary rosenblum

underline indicates italic.

mary rosenblum

Yes, because typewriters couldn't DO italic!

mary rosenblum

Talk about stone age, sigh. They DO use electronic publishing programs...

mary rosenblum

but for nearly all paper publishers, underline means italic. Italic on the page means the editor has to annotate EVERY PAGE and tell the typesetter...

mary rosenblum

that yes, this print is SUPPOSED to be in italic.

mary rosenblum

Editors HATE you for that.

mary rosenblum

Silly, huh?

mary rosenblum

Nobody said the publishing world was cutting edge.

mary rosenblum

Now that is not always true in the epublishing world.

mary rosenblum

So read guidelines carefully.

charie'

Would the ship Titanic be in italics, underlined or in quotes?

mary rosenblum

Gosh, I don't remember, chari. Just capitalize it and if the editor wants it italicized, he'll put it into italics. :-)

mary rosenblum

I underline (italicize) foreign words and book titles...

mary rosenblum

But realize that that's what editors and copy editors are for.

mary rosenblum

While your ms should be as polished and perfect as you can make it, if you misplace a few commas or...

mary rosenblum

don't italicize a ship's name, you are not going to lose a sale.

jeannieml

What published books contain mostly thought vs. dialog?

mary rosenblum

Books written in first preson, jean.

mary rosenblum

A first person narrative is either the character thinking to herself or speaking directly to someone.

robastor

I was always told proper names of ships/spaceships were supposed to be italics.

mary rosenblum

I believe they are, but I'd have to look in Strunk and White to make sure.

ashton

How about game names and things such as brand name foods?

mary rosenblum

If you're unsure, check your grammar rules in either Strunk and White' s Elements of Style or Essentials of English

mary rosenblum

You really SHOULD have some sort of grammar reference as a basic resource...

mary rosenblum

as well as a good dictionary.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Mainly, make it clear from the context of the scene...

mary rosenblum

when your character is thinking rather than acting or speaking.

mary rosenblum

You really should have no trouble making it clear, even if you don't use a 'he thought' tag line.

mary rosenblum

If the line has no quotation marks, then it is not spoken.

mary rosenblum

My suggestion is that you don't underline direct thought, that you simply make the context clear.

mary rosenblum

If your publisher generally italicizes direct thought that editor will do so.

mary rosenblum

If you use your POV character's vocabulary and idiom when you paraphrase the thought, it will really sound as if we are...

mary rosenblum

overhearing the character's actual thoughts, even though you are not using direct thoughts.

mary rosenblum

Carrie stared down the street. Brotha was at it again. Dancing for the tourists. He scowled and spat. Darn fool was gonna get his butt hauled off to jail oneday. Just wait.

mary rosenblum

This is all thought, but I've tried to give Carrie a strong internal voice that would match his spoken dialogue in a story.

jeannieml

Doesn't thought create a natural flow of action and character?

mary rosenblum

It can increase characterization a LOT.

mary rosenblum

But it does bog down action and slow down the pace of a scene...so there is a price to pay for using it too much.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

xana

What are some of the worst 'thought mistakes' novices make?

mary rosenblum

I'd say the most common, xana, one I see all the time, is to give the character lots and lots of direct thoughts...

mary rosenblum

that are simply there to 'educate' the reader.

mary rosenblum

Mariane climbed onto the bus and sank wearily into a seat. I should stop for a loaf of bread on the way home, she thought. And then I should go see Mom and maybe Bert won't be there for once. I really don't like Bert. I wish he wasn't my half brother. One of these days he's going to get arrested for drugs and it will kill Mom.

mary rosenblum

Most people do not sit on a bus seat and actually think these words!

xana

Yeah, that's bad!

mary rosenblum

It's very common.

mary rosenblum

Here's the paraphrased way to do the same thing:

mary rosenblum

Mariane climbed onto the bus and sank wearily into a seat. Get bread. She leaned her forehead against the cool glass. She really should go see Mom. Maybe Bert wouldn't be there for once. The creep. One of these days the punk..

mary rosenblum

was gonna get busted for dealing. She sighed. It'd kill Momma.

mary rosenblum

If I REALLY needed to tell readers he was her half brother, I'd find some reason for her to think about it.

speckledorf

Are the rules for tags the same for he/she thought vs he/she said?

mary rosenblum

Yes, and you can use action tags just as you do with dialogue.

mary rosenblum

If you notice I never used 'she thought'.

mary rosenblum

We know these are Mariane's thoughts. No need to tag them.

geezer

Can you blend tenses? "these days" "was gonna"

mary rosenblum

One of these days isn't in past tense, geeze, it's used to mean 'sooner or later'.

mary rosenblum

Sooner or later he is going to get hurt. Sooner or later he was going to get hurt.

mary rosenblum

It's meant to give the effect of Mariane actually thinking these words...

mary rosenblum

even though they are paraphrased.

mary rosenblum

That's why you use the character's own bad grammar, idiom, slang...

mary rosenblum

its intentionally non-correct, just as dialogue is.

mary rosenblum

It's meant to make the readers feel that they are sharing the character's thoughts.

mary rosenblum

It's one of the ways to reduce your narrative distance to near zero.

mary rosenblum

If you have two characters talking and your POV is also thinking, you're going to need to use tags more.

mary rosenblum

Just make sure that youre readers know who is speaking and who is thinking. :-)

kems

Do you need to start a new line after you write inner thought, or can you continue within the same paragraph and the " " will indicate it is no longer the characters inner thoughts?

mary rosenblum

That can be tricky, Kems.

mary rosenblum

You don't need to indent and begin a new paragraph if it's the same person speaking and thinking.

mary rosenblum

"Sure, I'll do it," Sandman said. Like heck, he thought.

mary rosenblum

There, I'd add that 'he thought' to give a sloppy reader a 'heads up' that he didn't say 'like heck' out loud.

mary rosenblum

Now if another character thinks 'like heck', then you would need to indent and begin a new paragraph after 'Sandman said'...

mary rosenblum

and I would make it clear who is thinking 'like heck'.

kems

In your example, would it be incorrect to leave the he thought off the end of the sentence?

mary rosenblum

Not incorrect.

mary rosenblum

But I have had a LOT of experience with readers and how easy it is to confuse them or for them to miss things...

mary rosenblum

and when I think I could lose readers, I try to fix it.

mary rosenblum

It would also depend on the context.

mary rosenblum

I use tag lines to balance the rhythm of a piece. Sometimes you just need the beat of pause that a 'he thought' provides.

kems

If you are writing a lot of inner thought and then you are going to have your character speak aloud, would it be best to begin a new line?

mary rosenblum

I wouldn't kems. Nine readers out of ten will thing a new character is speaking. We are trained as readers...

mary rosenblum

to hear a new voice when we see that indent and new paragraph.

mary rosenblum

You can call attention to that 'out loud' line with what I call a flag.

mary rosenblum

Add a tag that makes the outloud nature of the line clear.

mary rosenblum

"I said that's enough." He spoke loudly enough to cut through the babble.

mary rosenblum

I'll do something like that if I think readers will skim through that 'I said that's enough' and not realize it's an out loud line.

mary rosenblum

If you think something will be overlooked, find a way to call attention to it.

mary rosenblum

People get to reading fast and sloppy readers miss a lot of little things.

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

info

What if you have an extremely long paragraph that could be broken into two paragraphs? If the same person is speaking, wouldn't you leave off the end quotation marks, begin new paragraph with beginning quote marks and continue to let the reader know the same person is speaking?

mary rosenblum

I would find a better way to do it, info. Two paragraphs of nothing but dialogue is likely to seem like a talking heads scene...

mary rosenblum

where readers feel as if they have their eyes closed or are stuck in a boring lecture.

mary rosenblum

You want to create the effect of listening to that dialogue at the same time you are seeing the surroundings...

mary rosenblum

so break those paragraphs up with beats of visuals or action.

geezer

I just read a novel that moved back and forth between first person and third person limited, I felt rather disoriented at times. Is this bad writing or just me?

mary rosenblum

I think that would be very difficult to pull off well.

mary rosenblum

Readers get a real 'bump' when you switch from first to third or back again.

kems

If I am writing in first person, present tense and I want to tag inner thought, would I write as a tag, I think to myself?

mary rosenblum

I do present tense most of the time when I do first person. Since it is essentially all internal monologue unless it's actual dialogue, yes, I tag it like this:

mary rosenblum

I'm looking at Brandy all full of herself and smiling with those perfect actress teeth that cost her a bundle and I'm thinking, honey he's not your type. Only I know he really is and I hate him for it.

mary rosenblum

Remember that in first person, your POV is telling everything, even what he/she is thinking.

mary rosenblum

Really really the main thing to avoid in thought is long, grammatically correct sentences presented as direct thought.

mary rosenblum

That is always going to sound very phony and it will do a lot of harm to your story.

mary rosenblum

Avoid the temptation to use thought in order to dump all the backstory on your reader at once.

mary rosenblum

I see a lot of stories that start out with nice strong action...

mary rosenblum

and then the main character starts thinking about his entire life for the past five years.

mary rosenblum

And that goes on for two pages.

mary rosenblum

This is NOT a good way to do it.

mary rosenblum

But you can give readers a lot of information and LOTS of great character insights through a few well placed thoughts.

mary rosenblum

If your POV is acting one way, but he would like to be doing the opposite, a brief thought gives us that clue.

mary rosenblum

It can allow you to give readers a much deeper picture of your POV.

kems

If I write, I look at Brandy all full of herself...and think, honey he's not... is that wrong??? Should I be using ing?

mary rosenblum

No that's not wrong.

mary rosenblum

My use of 'I'm looking' is my character's voice. That's just the way she talks.

mary rosenblum

Realize if you are going to write in first person, then that person really needs...

mary rosenblum

to speak in an interesting way.

mary rosenblum

If your first person speaker speaks like a third person narrative, then USE third person.

mary rosenblum

A first person story whose character speaks in a boring monotone is not going to work well.

mary rosenblum

I work MUCH harder on voice when I do a story in first person.

mary rosenblum

By the time I write that story, I am very nearly speaking in that character's voice in real life!

mary rosenblum

It's important to do that. The reader is stuck listening to that voice all the way through!

mary rosenblum

one EXCELLENT exercise if you want to use first person a lot...

mary rosenblum

is to write a brief paragraph in your character's voice and then write it two more times...

mary rosenblum

in very different voices. They should be very distinct.

mary rosenblum

Each character will use different words, have a different world view, a different perspective.

mary rosenblum

They will NOT be the same.

geezer

A friend is doing a first person POV of how our town was in the late 40"s. He uses his voice as it was as a child and it is very charming.

mary rosenblum

Cool. :-)

mary rosenblum

Yes, a first person voice should ADD to the story.

kems

To clarify, use slang and skip some grammar rules etc. to give her a voice of her own within both inner AND outer thought?

mary rosenblum

Sure. It's her voice all the way.

mary rosenblum

It should never be YOUR voice.

mary rosenblum

This is why a lot of first person narratives get rejected.

mary rosenblum

They voice is a boring monotone.

mary rosenblum

People mostly don't talk as if they're reading the encyclopedia. :-)

mary rosenblum

I find writing first person much more difficult than writing third...because you have to be in character, so to speak, in every sentence...

mary rosenblum

and you don't have the relief of action or dialogue.

mary rosenblum

With every sentence, I'm thinking 'how would he say this?'

mary rosenblum

Once I really get my character's voice into my head it's easier. Of course then I have to stop speaking like him or her when I finish working. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is our After Hours Forum, with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November) , more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send bar if that works better for you..

mary rosenblum

Now thought really is a great way to get backstory to the reader...

mary rosenblum

but do it deftly and in little snippets.

mary rosenblum

Don't do the action start followed by the two page monologue as MC examines his life to date! :-)

mary rosenblum

But as your character heads off on that date, or calls mom, or does whatever...

mary rosenblum

you can slip in little cryptic thoughts that give the readers clues about his or her past.

mary rosenblum

Or his/her present circumstances.

charie'

Is it too choppy if you alternate action/thought/action/thought for a whole paragraph?

mary rosenblum

It can be. It really depends on what is going on, the state of mind of your character...

mary rosenblum

if the alternation is plausible...he's upset and can't stop thinking about the issue...

mary rosenblum

then that action thought action thought rhythm will actually add to the scene...

mary rosenblum

by accentuating his state of anxiety.

mary rosenblum

Generally, less thought is better than more.

mary rosenblum

Like salt use it sparingly.

mary rosenblum

Too much is not going to taste good.

charie'

Or fascination with what he's doing?

mary rosenblum

Sure.

mary rosenblum

Ask yourself, when do I find my actions constantly interrupted by thought?

mary rosenblum

When something is troubling me, I keep coming back to it while I do other things, I can't put it out of my mind.

mary rosenblum

When I"m really anticipating something...same thing.

mary rosenblum

Remember...if you mimic reality your scene seems real.

speckledorf

Would a character talking to themself be preferable to thinking to themself...or would it depend on the context, situation?

mary rosenblum

If you can do it, have the character talk to another character.

mary rosenblum

Dialogue tends to be stronger. Otherwise, it depends on the character you've created and the context.

speckledorf

Or the dog, cat or plant?

mary rosenblum

Those can be better than talking to self.

xana

An egotistical character might talk to himself while admiring his image in the mirror

mary rosenblum

And I talk out loud to myself at times...mostly to remind myself how stupid I am right after the paint bucket falls off the ladder!

mary rosenblum

People do talk out loud at times...

mary rosenblum

but like long mental soliloquys in gramatically perfect English, too much sounds phony.

mary rosenblum

A lot of writing is simply finding the right balance.

mary rosenblum

Too much doesn't work. Too little doesn't work.

mary rosenblum

So you do too much, you do too little, and eventually you find the balance.

info

if a dog or cat is a character in that story, wouldn't it be they thought? Seems to me that unless that dog or cat is from a different world where they have speech, they wouldn't be able to use words that we could understand.

mary rosenblum

I don't think Speck meant that the dog or cat was answering.

mary rosenblum

But people do talk out loud to their pets.

mary rosenblum

If you mean when the animal is the POV...

mary rosenblum

then it's usually handled like first person...an implied internal narrative.

info

I have a series of shorts where a cat is the POV.

mary rosenblum

Are you doing it in first person or third, info?

xana

And the pet often responds to the tone of voice - if not the words

mary rosenblum

Yes, and the pet can tell us the character's mood. :-)

mary rosenblum

If Joel says "I"m going to get her." and the dog dives under the bed, we have an idea of Joel's mood!

info

First I think. He is observing and interacting with others.

mary rosenblum

Info, I'd give him an interesting voice.

mary rosenblum

Slush piles are full of animal stories where the animals talk and think like people.

mary rosenblum

Make him think like a cat. What is his owner? Not 'my owner' I bet! Big food giver maybe?

speckledorf

No...no talking dogs or cats. Though I do have a dragon that speaks.

info

I believe that I sent you one of them. The Mighty Bat Hunter.

mary rosenblum

Oh, right! I had forgotten about that. AS I recall you did a nice job with it, too.

seigfried007

Mm. Purrrrrrr. Aren't I pretty! Aren't I lovely! Pet Me! Love on me! Serve your god! ::butts head against owner's lower legs::

mary rosenblum

Much more feline attitude! :-)

mary rosenblum

Remember that how we think and how we speak reflects who we are in a very clear mirror.

mary rosenblum

That's why it's so important to give your character his/her own and distinct voice...

mary rosenblum

and way of thinking.

mary rosenblum

Otherwise that mirror reflects....YOU.

seigfried007

if you liked taht, you should love Satan in my #11--just sent it yesterday

mary rosenblum

Ah, I have it Seig. :-) Haven't read it yet.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour.

mary rosenblum

Do join us on Sunday for our casual chat...

mary rosenblum

same time, same place, but we talk about whatever. :-)

mary rosenblum

It's a lot of fun.

mary rosenblum

And I"ll post the transcripts in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.

mary rosenblum

Have a good weekend all!

mary rosenblum

See you Sunday.

 

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