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mary rosenblum
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Hello all!
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mary rosenblum
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I hope you've had a great week
and have had good writing time.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling
thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Handling thought is one of the
things that troubles novice writers the most.
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mary rosenblum
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I'm going to start the ball
rolling here with a question sent to me by someone who couldn't be here...
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info
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Is using 'he/she wondered' the
same as he/she thought? Seems to me that it is.
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mary rosenblum
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Sure, info. Was he really that
stupid, she wondered, or was he faking it?
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mary rosenblum
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Wondered simply implies a
'thought question'.
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mary rosenblum
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Here's J Forrest's question:
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mary rosenblum
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In a story written in past
tense, should thoughts be presented in the present tense or past tense? For
example: "The moon isn't out yet," she thought. "It will be
a nice night to go stargazing." Or "The moon wasn't out
yet," she thought...
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mary rosenblum
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This is the basic division of
thought.
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mary rosenblum
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Direct thought...in other
words you 'quote' the character's EXACT thoughts...
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mary rosenblum
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or paraphrased thought where
you don't quote the exact thoughts...
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mary rosenblum
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but rather render the meaning
of the thought.
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mary rosenblum
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And if the story is written in
past tense, the paraphrased thought is written in pat these.
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mary rosenblum
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The moon wasn't out yet, she
thought... is paraphrased thought.
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mary rosenblum
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This is the 'gist' of what she
actually is thinking.
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mary rosenblum
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And her actual thoughts might
be more like'; Moon...and a glance at the black sky...
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mary rosenblum
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with the nonverbal awareness
that it's not there.
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mary rosenblum
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The moon isn't out yet, she
thought ...tells us that these words form in her mind: The moon isn't out
yet.
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mary rosenblum
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Now we do think in complete
sentences from time to time...
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mary rosenblum
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but a lot of the time we think
in single words or nonverbal awarenesses...
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mary rosenblum
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and those just don't translate
very well.
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mary rosenblum
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And...we all are experts on
humans...we've had a lifetime to study them.
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mary rosenblum
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So when a character 'thinks'
in dialogue...our hindbrain whispers 'phony' in our ears.
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mary rosenblum
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We really don't think in
coherent dialogue-type sentences that much.
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mary rosenblum
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At least most people don't.
:-)
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xana
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Mary, thinking in single words
is really easy to understand when one is trying to learn a foreign
language: sentences do NOT come naturally at first!
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, Xana, and we DO think in
single words. Often expletives!
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mary rosenblum
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It's the long monologues that
sound clunky and phony.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh no! She grabbed for the
falling vase.
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mary rosenblum
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She probably thinks 'Oh no!'
or something more colorful!
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling
thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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snarryfan
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is there a way to designate
thought from action? Some use italics and some say not to. Which is right?
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mary rosenblum
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snarry, you, the author should
be able to make it very clear what is action and what is thought.
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mary rosenblum
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No other punctuation is
necessary.
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mary rosenblum
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And most publishers DO tend to
italicize direct thought (I HATE that) which is a good reason not to use
much...
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mary rosenblum
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direct thought. Italicized
text 'sounds different' to readers.
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mary rosenblum
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It makes that thought stand
out like a shout. That can work against you in many scenes.
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speckledorf
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Telepathic thought is italicized
though right?
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mary rosenblum
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That's how I handle it and
many other SF authors.
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mary rosenblum
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I also use it for machine
voices, loudspeaker announcements, anything that should not sound like a
person talking.
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mary rosenblum
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Snarry, here's an example.
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mary rosenblum
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Dawn grabbed her coat from the
hook, her blood boiling. Stupid girl. What was she thinking of? She slammed
through the door, gasping as the icy air burned her bare face. No way was
she covering for Sharan again. She fumbled her scarf from her pocket, wound
it around her face...
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mary rosenblum
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I don't think you have an
trouble telling thought from action here.
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info
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What if your thoughts come in
other forms? As an example, "she had to wonder if he was really
right."..
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mary rosenblum
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That's just paraphrased
thought, info.
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mary rosenblum
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You're rendering the meaning
of whatever is actually passing through her head.
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mary rosenblum
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Amie stared after Brent. She
had to wonder if he was really right or just showing off.
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mary rosenblum
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Paraphrased thought simply
merges more seamlessly into the prose.
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mary rosenblum
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It is less likely to jar the
reader or sound 'unreal'.
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geezer
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My LR instructor wouldn't let me
use italics for a letter. When the stary was published, they put the letter
in italics.
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mary rosenblum
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That's the silly rules of
publishing, geeze.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't let my students use
italic either. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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In the publishing world, which
is still stumbling around in the typewriter era...
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mary rosenblum
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underline indicates italic.
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, because typewriters
couldn't DO italic!
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mary rosenblum
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Talk about stone age, sigh.
They DO use electronic publishing programs...
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mary rosenblum
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but for nearly all paper
publishers, underline means italic. Italic on the page means the editor has
to annotate EVERY PAGE and tell the typesetter...
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mary rosenblum
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that yes, this print is
SUPPOSED to be in italic.
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mary rosenblum
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Editors HATE you for that.
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mary rosenblum
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Silly, huh?
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mary rosenblum
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Nobody said the publishing
world was cutting edge.
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mary rosenblum
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Now that is not always true in
the epublishing world.
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mary rosenblum
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So read guidelines carefully.
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charie'
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Would the ship Titanic be in
italics, underlined or in quotes?
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mary rosenblum
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Gosh, I don't remember, chari.
Just capitalize it and if the editor wants it italicized, he'll put it into
italics. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I underline (italicize)
foreign words and book titles...
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mary rosenblum
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But realize that that's what
editors and copy editors are for.
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mary rosenblum
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While your ms should be as
polished and perfect as you can make it, if you misplace a few commas or...
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mary rosenblum
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don't italicize a ship's name,
you are not going to lose a sale.
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jeannieml
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What published books contain
mostly thought vs. dialog?
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mary rosenblum
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Books written in first preson,
jean.
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mary rosenblum
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A first person narrative is
either the character thinking to herself or speaking directly to someone.
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robastor
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I was always told proper names
of ships/spaceships were supposed to be italics.
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mary rosenblum
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I believe they are, but I'd
have to look in Strunk and White to make sure.
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ashton
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How about game names and things
such as brand name foods?
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mary rosenblum
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If you're unsure, check your
grammar rules in either Strunk and White' s Elements of Style or Essentials
of English
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mary rosenblum
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You really SHOULD have some
sort of grammar reference as a basic resource...
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mary rosenblum
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as well as a good dictionary.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling
thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Mainly, make it clear from the
context of the scene...
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mary rosenblum
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when your character is
thinking rather than acting or speaking.
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mary rosenblum
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You really should have no
trouble making it clear, even if you don't use a 'he thought' tag line.
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mary rosenblum
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If the line has no quotation
marks, then it is not spoken.
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mary rosenblum
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My suggestion is that you
don't underline direct thought, that you simply make the context clear.
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mary rosenblum
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If your publisher generally
italicizes direct thought that editor will do so.
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mary rosenblum
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If you use your POV
character's vocabulary and idiom when you paraphrase the thought, it will
really sound as if we are...
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mary rosenblum
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overhearing the character's
actual thoughts, even though you are not using direct thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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Carrie stared down the street.
Brotha was at it again. Dancing for the tourists. He scowled and spat. Darn
fool was gonna get his butt hauled off to jail oneday. Just wait.
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mary rosenblum
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This is all thought, but I've
tried to give Carrie a strong internal voice that would match his spoken
dialogue in a story.
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jeannieml
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Doesn't thought create a natural
flow of action and character?
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mary rosenblum
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It can increase
characterization a LOT.
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mary rosenblum
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But it does bog down action
and slow down the pace of a scene...so there is a price to pay for using it
too much.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling
thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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xana
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What are some of the worst
'thought mistakes' novices make?
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mary rosenblum
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I'd say the most common, xana,
one I see all the time, is to give the character lots and lots of direct
thoughts...
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mary rosenblum
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that are simply there to
'educate' the reader.
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mary rosenblum
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Mariane climbed onto the bus
and sank wearily into a seat. I should stop for a loaf of bread on the way
home, she thought. And then I should go see Mom and maybe Bert won't be
there for once. I really don't like Bert. I wish he wasn't my half brother.
One of these days he's going to get arrested for drugs and it will kill
Mom.
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mary rosenblum
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Most people do not sit on a
bus seat and actually think these words!
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xana
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Yeah, that's bad!
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mary rosenblum
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It's very common.
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mary rosenblum
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Here's the paraphrased way to
do the same thing:
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mary rosenblum
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Mariane climbed onto the bus
and sank wearily into a seat. Get bread. She leaned her forehead against
the cool glass. She really should go see Mom. Maybe Bert wouldn't be there
for once. The creep. One of these days the punk..
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mary rosenblum
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was gonna get busted for
dealing. She sighed. It'd kill Momma.
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mary rosenblum
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If I REALLY needed to tell
readers he was her half brother, I'd find some reason for her to think
about it.
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speckledorf
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Are the rules for tags the same
for he/she thought vs he/she said?
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, and you can use action
tags just as you do with dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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If you notice I never used
'she thought'.
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mary rosenblum
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We know these are Mariane's
thoughts. No need to tag them.
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geezer
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Can you blend tenses?
"these days" "was gonna"
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mary rosenblum
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One of these days isn't in
past tense, geeze, it's used to mean 'sooner or later'.
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mary rosenblum
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Sooner or later he is going to
get hurt. Sooner or later he was going to get hurt.
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mary rosenblum
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It's meant to give the effect
of Mariane actually thinking these words...
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mary rosenblum
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even though they are
paraphrased.
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mary rosenblum
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That's why you use the
character's own bad grammar, idiom, slang...
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mary rosenblum
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its intentionally non-correct,
just as dialogue is.
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mary rosenblum
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It's meant to make the readers
feel that they are sharing the character's thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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It's one of the ways to reduce
your narrative distance to near zero.
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mary rosenblum
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If you have two characters
talking and your POV is also thinking, you're going to need to use tags
more.
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mary rosenblum
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Just make sure that youre
readers know who is speaking and who is thinking. :-)
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kems
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Do you need to start a new line
after you write inner thought, or can you continue within the same
paragraph and the " " will indicate it is no longer the
characters inner thoughts?
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mary rosenblum
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That can be tricky, Kems.
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mary rosenblum
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You don't need to indent and
begin a new paragraph if it's the same person speaking and thinking.
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mary rosenblum
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"Sure, I'll do it,"
Sandman said. Like heck, he thought.
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mary rosenblum
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There, I'd add that 'he
thought' to give a sloppy reader a 'heads up' that he didn't say 'like
heck' out loud.
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mary rosenblum
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Now if another character
thinks 'like heck', then you would need to indent and begin a new paragraph
after 'Sandman said'...
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mary rosenblum
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and I would make it clear who
is thinking 'like heck'.
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kems
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In your example, would it be
incorrect to leave the he thought off the end of the sentence?
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mary rosenblum
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Not incorrect.
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mary rosenblum
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But I have had a LOT of
experience with readers and how easy it is to confuse them or for them to
miss things...
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mary rosenblum
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and when I think I could lose
readers, I try to fix it.
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mary rosenblum
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It would also depend on the
context.
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mary rosenblum
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I use tag lines to balance the
rhythm of a piece. Sometimes you just need the beat of pause that a 'he
thought' provides.
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kems
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If you are writing a lot of
inner thought and then you are going to have your character speak aloud,
would it be best to begin a new line?
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mary rosenblum
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I wouldn't kems. Nine readers
out of ten will thing a new character is speaking. We are trained as
readers...
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mary rosenblum
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to hear a new voice when we
see that indent and new paragraph.
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mary rosenblum
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You can call attention to that
'out loud' line with what I call a flag.
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mary rosenblum
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Add a tag that makes the
outloud nature of the line clear.
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mary rosenblum
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"I said that's
enough." He spoke loudly enough to cut through the babble.
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mary rosenblum
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I'll do something like that if
I think readers will skim through that 'I said that's enough' and not
realize it's an out loud line.
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mary rosenblum
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If you think something will be
overlooked, find a way to call attention to it.
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mary rosenblum
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People get to reading fast and
sloppy readers miss a lot of little things.
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling
thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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info
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What if you have an extremely
long paragraph that could be broken into two paragraphs? If the same person
is speaking, wouldn't you leave off the end quotation marks, begin new
paragraph with beginning quote marks and continue to let the reader know
the same person is speaking?
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mary rosenblum
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I would find a better way to
do it, info. Two paragraphs of nothing but dialogue is likely to seem like
a talking heads scene...
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mary rosenblum
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where readers feel as if they
have their eyes closed or are stuck in a boring lecture.
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mary rosenblum
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You want to create the effect
of listening to that dialogue at the same time you are seeing the
surroundings...
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mary rosenblum
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so break those paragraphs up
with beats of visuals or action.
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geezer
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I just read a novel that moved
back and forth between first person and third person limited, I felt rather
disoriented at times. Is this bad writing or just me?
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mary rosenblum
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I think that would be very
difficult to pull off well.
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mary rosenblum
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Readers get a real 'bump' when
you switch from first to third or back again.
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kems
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If I am writing in first person,
present tense and I want to tag inner thought, would I write as a tag, I
think to myself?
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mary rosenblum
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I do present tense most of the
time when I do first person. Since it is essentially all internal monologue
unless it's actual dialogue, yes, I tag it like this:
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mary rosenblum
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I'm looking at Brandy all full
of herself and smiling with those perfect actress teeth that cost her a
bundle and I'm thinking, honey he's not your type. Only I know he really is
and I hate him for it.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that in first person,
your POV is telling everything, even what he/she is thinking.
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mary rosenblum
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Really really the main thing
to avoid in thought is long, grammatically correct sentences presented as
direct thought.
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mary rosenblum
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That is always going to sound
very phony and it will do a lot of harm to your story.
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mary rosenblum
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Avoid the temptation to use
thought in order to dump all the backstory on your reader at once.
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mary rosenblum
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I see a lot of stories that
start out with nice strong action...
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mary rosenblum
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and then the main character
starts thinking about his entire life for the past five years.
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mary rosenblum
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And that goes on for two
pages.
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mary rosenblum
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This is NOT a good way to do
it.
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mary rosenblum
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But you can give readers a lot
of information and LOTS of great character insights through a few well
placed thoughts.
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mary rosenblum
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If your POV is acting one way,
but he would like to be doing the opposite, a brief thought gives us that
clue.
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mary rosenblum
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It can allow you to give
readers a much deeper picture of your POV.
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kems
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If I write, I look at Brandy all
full of herself...and think, honey he's not... is that wrong??? Should I be
using ing?
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mary rosenblum
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No that's not wrong.
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mary rosenblum
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My use of 'I'm looking' is my
character's voice. That's just the way she talks.
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mary rosenblum
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Realize if you are going to
write in first person, then that person really needs...
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mary rosenblum
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to speak in an interesting
way.
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mary rosenblum
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If your first person speaker
speaks like a third person narrative, then USE third person.
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mary rosenblum
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A first person story whose
character speaks in a boring monotone is not going to work well.
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mary rosenblum
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I work MUCH harder on voice
when I do a story in first person.
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mary rosenblum
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By the time I write that
story, I am very nearly speaking in that character's voice in real life!
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mary rosenblum
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It's important to do that. The
reader is stuck listening to that voice all the way through!
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mary rosenblum
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one EXCELLENT exercise if you
want to use first person a lot...
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mary rosenblum
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is to write a brief paragraph
in your character's voice and then write it two more times...
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mary rosenblum
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in very different voices. They
should be very distinct.
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mary rosenblum
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Each character will use
different words, have a different world view, a different perspective.
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mary rosenblum
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They will NOT be the same.
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geezer
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A friend is doing a first person
POV of how our town was in the late 40"s. He uses his voice as it was
as a child and it is very charming.
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mary rosenblum
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Cool. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, a first person voice
should ADD to the story.
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kems
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To clarify, use slang and skip
some grammar rules etc. to give her a voice of her own within both inner
AND outer thought?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure. It's her voice all the
way.
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mary rosenblum
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It should never be YOUR voice.
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mary rosenblum
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This is why a lot of first
person narratives get rejected.
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mary rosenblum
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They voice is a boring
monotone.
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mary rosenblum
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People mostly don't talk as if
they're reading the encyclopedia. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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I find writing first person
much more difficult than writing third...because you have to be in
character, so to speak, in every sentence...
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mary rosenblum
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and you don't have the relief
of action or dialogue.
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mary rosenblum
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With every sentence, I'm
thinking 'how would he say this?'
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mary rosenblum
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Once I really get my
character's voice into my head it's easier. Of course then I have to stop
speaking like him or her when I finish working. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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This is our After Hours Forum,
with me, Mary Rosenblum, your web editor. We're talking about handling
thought. I've published seven novels (number eight will be out in November)
, more than 60 short stories, and will do my best to answer any questions
you have. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the 'Ask a
Question' button or the 'word bubble' next to the red question mark at the
top of the screen in order to ask a question. Your regular 'send' bar won't
reach me! Or you can use /ask and type your question into the regular send
bar if that works better for you..
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mary rosenblum
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Now thought really is a great
way to get backstory to the reader...
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mary rosenblum
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but do it deftly and in little
snippets.
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mary rosenblum
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Don't do the action start
followed by the two page monologue as MC examines his life to date! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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But as your character heads
off on that date, or calls mom, or does whatever...
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mary rosenblum
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you can slip in little cryptic
thoughts that give the readers clues about his or her past.
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mary rosenblum
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Or his/her present
circumstances.
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charie'
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Is it too choppy if you
alternate action/thought/action/thought for a whole paragraph?
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mary rosenblum
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It can be. It really depends
on what is going on, the state of mind of your character...
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mary rosenblum
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if the alternation is
plausible...he's upset and can't stop thinking about the issue...
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mary rosenblum
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then that action thought
action thought rhythm will actually add to the scene...
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mary rosenblum
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by accentuating his state of
anxiety.
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mary rosenblum
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Generally, less thought is
better than more.
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mary rosenblum
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Like salt use it sparingly.
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mary rosenblum
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Too much is not going to taste
good.
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charie'
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Or fascination with what he's
doing?
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mary rosenblum
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Sure.
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mary rosenblum
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Ask yourself, when do I find
my actions constantly interrupted by thought?
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mary rosenblum
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When something is troubling
me, I keep coming back to it while I do other things, I can't put it out of
my mind.
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mary rosenblum
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When I"m really
anticipating something...same thing.
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mary rosenblum
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Remember...if you mimic
reality your scene seems real.
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speckledorf
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Would a character talking to
themself be preferable to thinking to themself...or would it depend on the
context, situation?
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mary rosenblum
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If you can do it, have the
character talk to another character.
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mary rosenblum
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Dialogue tends to be stronger.
Otherwise, it depends on the character you've created and the context.
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speckledorf
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Or the dog, cat or plant?
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mary rosenblum
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Those can be better than
talking to self.
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xana
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An egotistical character might
talk to himself while admiring his image in the mirror
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mary rosenblum
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And I talk out loud to myself
at times...mostly to remind myself how stupid I am right after the paint
bucket falls off the ladder!
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mary rosenblum
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People do talk out loud at
times...
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mary rosenblum
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but like long mental
soliloquys in gramatically perfect English, too much sounds phony.
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mary rosenblum
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A lot of writing is simply
finding the right balance.
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mary rosenblum
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Too much doesn't work. Too
little doesn't work.
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mary rosenblum
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So you do too much, you do too
little, and eventually you find the balance.
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info
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if a dog or cat is a character
in that story, wouldn't it be they thought? Seems to me that unless that
dog or cat is from a different world where they have speech, they wouldn't
be able to use words that we could understand.
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mary rosenblum
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I don't think Speck meant that
the dog or cat was answering.
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mary rosenblum
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But people do talk out loud to
their pets.
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mary rosenblum
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If you mean when the animal is
the POV...
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mary rosenblum
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then it's usually handled like
first person...an implied internal narrative.
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info
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I have a series of shorts where
a cat is the POV.
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mary rosenblum
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Are you doing it in first
person or third, info?
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xana
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And the pet often responds to
the tone of voice - if not the words
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mary rosenblum
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Yes, and the pet can tell us
the character's mood. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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If Joel says "I"m
going to get her." and the dog dives under the bed, we have an idea of
Joel's mood!
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info
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First I think. He is observing
and interacting with others.
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mary rosenblum
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Info, I'd give him an
interesting voice.
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mary rosenblum
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Slush piles are full of animal
stories where the animals talk and think like people.
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mary rosenblum
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Make him think like a cat.
What is his owner? Not 'my owner' I bet! Big food giver maybe?
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speckledorf
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No...no talking dogs or cats.
Though I do have a dragon that speaks.
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info
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I believe that I sent you one of
them. The Mighty Bat Hunter.
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mary rosenblum
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Oh, right! I had forgotten
about that. AS I recall you did a nice job with it, too.
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seigfried007
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Mm. Purrrrrrr. Aren't I pretty!
Aren't I lovely! Pet Me! Love on me! Serve your god! ::butts head against
owner's lower legs::
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mary rosenblum
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Much more feline attitude! :-)
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mary rosenblum
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Remember that how we think and
how we speak reflects who we are in a very clear mirror.
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mary rosenblum
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That's why it's so important
to give your character his/her own and distinct voice...
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mary rosenblum
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and way of thinking.
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mary rosenblum
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Otherwise that mirror
reflects....YOU.
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seigfried007
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if you liked taht, you should
love Satan in my #11--just sent it yesterday
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mary rosenblum
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Ah, I have it Seig. :-)
Haven't read it yet.
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mary rosenblum
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Well, this has been a fun
Oregon hour.
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mary rosenblum
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Do join us on Sunday for our
casual chat...
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mary rosenblum
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same time, same place, but we
talk about whatever. :-)
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mary rosenblum
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It's a lot of fun.
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mary rosenblum
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And I"ll post the
transcripts in the usual place: Writing Craft: Forum Transcripts.
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mary rosenblum
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Have a good weekend all!
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mary rosenblum
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See you Sunday.
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