Forum Transcripts

What Do I Write? Identifying Markets. 2/21/06

Event start time:

Tue Feb 21 12:04:42 2006

Event end time:

Tue Feb 21 13:32:39 2006



Legend:
Questions from the Audience are presented in red.
Answers by the Speaker are in black.
The Moderator's comments are in blue.

mary rosenblum

Hello all!

mary rosenblum

Welcome to our Tuesday Forum.

mary rosenblum

I hope you had an excellent weekend.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about knowing what you write. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

This Forum topic is a request from one of our website regulars.

mary rosenblum

It's true that while many people know exactly what they are writing, some writers aren't really sure where to market their fiction.

mary rosenblum

I want to talk about about what 'genre' and 'market' mean, right off the bat.

mary rosenblum

There are no international standards to define your work.

mary rosenblum

The whole concept of 'genre' is simply a sorting tool.

mary rosenblum

It allows bookstore owners to decide where to shelve your work with similar work.

mary rosenblum

And it allows readers to browse a few shelves to find a particular type of story...

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rather than having to search the entire bookstore.

mary rosenblum

And it is true that many stories contain elements of multiple genres.

mary rosenblum

Most of my SF stories have mystery plots.

mary rosenblum

They're classed as 'SF' because they take place in a SFnal universe.

mary rosenblum

Many of them contain elements of romance, too.

mary rosenblum

Romance is generally a plot element in most fiction...to some degree at least.

mary rosenblum

If you're writing short fiction, the best way to identify your market is to purchase a couple of issues of the magazines you're interested in selling to...

mary rosenblum

and read them.

mary rosenblum

Is their fiction anything like what you write?

mary rosenblum

The writers guidelines for Asimov's, Analog, Fantasy & SF, and Talebones are all pretty similar.

mary rosenblum

The stories those editors publish are not at all similar.

mary rosenblum

And as an editor changes, so does the magazine.

mary rosenblum

One way to identify your 'genre' is to ask yourself what is the most important aspect of the story? If the entire plot...

mary rosenblum

revolves around a pair of star crossed lovers, and the setting and other plot elements aren't nearly so important, this is probably something for the Romance publishers.

mary rosenblum

If the story revolves around a crime or a murder, it's probably a mystery.

mary rosenblum

If it's set in the future, you're most likely going to be classes as SF..

mary rosenblum

And if it has magic, elves, unicorns...you're looking at fantasy.

mary rosenblum

That doesn't stop you from pitching your work to multiple genres. :-) You might find that you can sell your fantasy book to either Luna (a romance imprint) or Tor Books (a speculative fiction publisher).

mary rosenblum

You might find that your contemporary fantasy belongs in both the mainstream genre ...

mary rosenblum

and the fantasy genre.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about knowing what you write. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

The hard part for everyone to grasp at the outset of their careers...

mary rosenblum

is that there is no hard and fast standard for ANYTHING in fiction.

mary rosenblum

What one editor sees as 'fantasy', another editor might see as 'magic realism mainstream'.

mary rosenblum

Speculative fiction is a rather vague and inclusive term for anything other than reality...it come from the...

mary rosenblum

idea of 'speculating' about whatever...the future, magic, etc

mary rosenblum

Mostly it's used to cover SF and fantasy in the same sentence. :-)

mary rosenblum

It usually include horror and magic realism...these are all more specific categories of speculative fiction -- the broad umbrella term.

tolkienlvr

Mary, can you give more description of what "speculative fiction" is?

mary rosenblum

Sorry, tolkien...I posted the answer before I posted your question. :-)

janecj333

I have worried that a story with multiple cross-genre elements will never find a publisher, because all regard it as "not for me".

mary rosenblum

That's not necessarily so, jane. Remember that while publishers like the tried and true because of the tyranny of the bottom line...

mary rosenblum

they are ALL looking for the 'breakout book' that catches public attention and makes BIG sales.

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THat does not mean that just BECAUSE your book is a 'between the cracks' type book...

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with elements of multiple genres it will sell. But if it is a powerful book...

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it will likely sell. Perhaps not as quickly, since editors who are more fixated...

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on the tried and true will reject it. But who said you can only submit a book once?

jyinxy

so how do we know what we should write?do you generally write what you like to read?

mary rosenblum

I really really really suggest you write what you read for pleasure, jyinxy.

mary rosenblum

It is VERY difficult to write for a genre you don't read personally.

mary rosenblum

You can do it, but it means analyzing that genre to determine what the editors want to see, generally...

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and that is a WHOLE lot easier to do when you can analyze your own work well enough...

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to know what you are and are not doing.

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In other words, when you can make intentional decisions about what you want your story to do, rather than 'just writing it', you're more likely to suceed...

mary rosenblum

writing out of your genre. But that usually takes a fair amount of experience.

mary rosenblum

So you're more likely to succeed...and have more fun!...if you write what YOU want to read.

jackie7777

I am writing a piece and I am not sure what genre itr fits into. It is about a young man who has been told a lie about the death of his mother (who is alive) and later finds out she is alive. He does not find this out until much later in life - adulthood. I am not trying to write a mystery because 1. I do not like mysteries and 2. I do not read mysteries. I am trying to write a piece about a young man who after losing his mother finds her and in turn finds himself. What genre is this?

mary rosenblum

Mainstream, jackie. And it sounds like a great plot, too. :-)

oddangel

what if you read a variety of things for pleasure?

mary rosenblum

Then your options for writing what you read are MUCH broader, odd. :-) Good for you.

lore alley

Mary, can you explain mainstream and literary fiction?

mary rosenblum

This is always a fuzzy boundary, lore.

mary rosenblum

Essentially, mainstream is just a fiction story that is not a mystery, is not fantasy, is not horror, is not SF.

mary rosenblum

I know that's vague, but it IS a vague boundary.

mary rosenblum

Handmaid's Tale was classed as 'mainstream' but it's actually SF...it's set in a future world.

mary rosenblum

But it was marketed as mainstream, because the author was already known as a mainstream writer.

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So you have quite a bit of crossover into mainstream.

mary rosenblum

Literary is harder to define. The best way to describe it is a piece of fiction...

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where the style of the writing is as important as the plot and characters.

mary rosenblum

It's not just the story...it's how you tell the story.

mary rosenblum

So the form is more important and you are working with stylistic elements as much as plot elements.

mary rosenblum

And it is judged on its stylistic merits as much as on its story.

mary rosenblum

In literary fiction, language is meant to play a powerful role in the work.

mary rosenblum

In most other fiction, the language merely presents the story in the most powerful fashion...it is subordinate to the plot and characters.

mary rosenblum

Not so in literary fiction.

jackie7777

Is that how I present it to a publisher?

mary rosenblum

Yes, Jackie. You would do your market research by browsing the 'mainstream' shelves in your local bookstore...

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often called 'contemporary fiction' or just 'fiction' and looking for publishers...

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who have published stories about characters who are also searching for meaning in their lives...something along those lines.

mary rosenblum

And if you're talking novel length fiction, you will have to approach the big publishing houses through an agent.

mary rosenblum

BUT...if you find small press publishers on the shelves of the big chains, they have excellent distribution and are worth considering from the start.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about knowing what you write. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

Most of the time, if you don't think your book or story is speculative fiction, mystery, etc...it's probably mainsteam.

mary rosenblum

That really is the 'everything else' category. :-)

mary rosenblum

And I believe that next to romance, it's the largest market.

mary rosenblum

NOBODY tops romance!

mary rosenblum

I really suggest that when you are starting out you write what moves you and don't worry about where to sell it until afterward.

mary rosenblum

What you want to capture is all the power and passion that you feel as you tell that story.

mary rosenblum

And if you're trying to write something you are not passionate about ...just because it might pay better...you're not likely to impress an editor.

jyinxy

is it diffcult to find a good agent?ho would you go about getting one? do you send them sample stories?

mary rosenblum

You can visit the Association of Authors Representatives website, jyinxy.

mary rosenblum

AAR Webpage

mary rosenblum

They have a FAQ page that guides you in the process of contacting and choosing an agent and they have some contact information up there.

mary rosenblum

I also recommend Jeff Herman's Guide to Publishers, Editors, and Literary Agents.

mary rosenblum

I think he just updated it.

geezer

Within the Christian genre are all the other genres. Most people at the library ask me for historical fiction.

mary rosenblum

Yes, good point Geeze.

mary rosenblum

Christian fiction is quite a large market and really does include everything else..pretty much.

mary rosenblum

Historical fiction is its own genre although it segues into SF with Alternative History.

mary rosenblum

Most agents, by the way, want only a query or a synopsis and three chapters...often they ask for a query...

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which is a VERY brief pitch for the book, and if it's the kind of book this agent handles...

mary rosenblum

you'll get a request for the chapters and synopsis.

geezer

I meant that they asked for historical within the Christian genre

mary rosenblum

Ah, that makes more sense. I thought your public library clientele were a bit unusual. :-)

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about knowing what you write. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

mary rosenblum

One thing to keep in mind as you receive rejections from agents...

mary rosenblum

each agent works closely with a handful of editors.

mary rosenblum

Every editor works for a particular imprint... a big publisher like Random House has hundreds of editors...

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and if that agents familiar editors don't generally buy this type of work, you'll get a no thanks.

mary rosenblum

So when you DO get accepted, that agent is pretty sure the book is sold for sure.

mary rosenblum

Ah, Mark, I saw your question about autobiography.

marktwainish

I mean a memior on my life as a manic depressant

mary rosenblum

That might well sell. There is a lot of public awareness about 'bipolar'...

mary rosenblum

autism, schizophrenia...and that type of personal memoir might well catch a publisher's eye.

mary rosenblum

On the average, unless you are a celebrity for some reason, you will have trouble selling an autobiography to a publisher..

mary rosenblum

They want some sort of 'hook' to attract reader attention.

mary rosenblum

But of course, that's a perfect reason to use one of the very low cost personal presses like iUniverse.

mary rosenblum

They fill the personal memoir, family memoir publishing niche very well.

mary rosenblum

It is easy to get your book published these days.

mary rosenblum

It is not particularly easy to get paid for it, but it never has been.

janecj333

Getting the request from an agent is not such an easy matter. In almost 30 queries for my completed sf novel, I received no requests to send chapters. Despite that I researched agents carefully and followed their guidelines, I obviously did not identify even one that looks at new writers' work.

mary rosenblum

I think you're looking at it from the wrong perspective jane. I think you didn't identify one that thought they could sell your book.

mary rosenblum

It may be too similar to things that are already out there and haven't done well...

mary rosenblum

it may have been for a variety of reasons...

mary rosenblum

It might be something that will sell better three years from now or ten...

mary rosenblum

And in Sf, I'd mostly work on making editor connections at one of the many SF cons in your area...

mary rosenblum

and send it directly to the editor. You don't need an agent in SF.

mary rosenblum

Actually, one of the best places to get advice on 'what you write'...is at a writers conference.

mary rosenblum

You can often schedule a meeting with an agent or editor...get direct feedback.

mary rosenblum

They may tell you where your book will sell best.

mary rosenblum

And you can always chat with editors and publishers after panels.

mary rosenblum

Don't pitch your book directly then...very bad manners and they won't listen...

mary rosenblum

but ask them where a book like yours...describe it generally and briefly...would best fit.

mary rosenblum

Editors for the most part are very helpful to new writers if you're not obnoxious.

janecj333

I'm pretty sure that an agent seeing a query from Greg Bear, Mary Doria Russell, or Margaret Atwood would request chapters and synopsis without hesitation, regardless of the story plot, because salabality depends on their name, not on whether it has been done before.

mary rosenblum

Well of course, Jane. The agent not only knows that Greg or Atwood will write a good, solid book, but that person...

mary rosenblum

has already put in the rejections and publishing sweat to establish that name.

mary rosenblum

And by the way, Greg Bear has about 30 or more unpublished novels that he wrote and circulated...

mary rosenblum

before he sold his first book. FYI.

mary rosenblum

So he did not have his name handed to him. :-) I bet you Atwood has a few...

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and I know Mary Doria Russell does.

mary rosenblum

Greg's stack is pretty impressive, though. :-)

mary rosenblum

But I think he started at about age 14.

marktwainish

Would getting a memior publushed before trying to get any of my horror out there hurt my chances, sort of like type casting in film?

mary rosenblum

Oh, not at all.

mary rosenblum

Memoir is one of the very respectable genres...

mary rosenblum

And it's not going to hurt you in horror at all. :-) Mostly editors and publishers don't look outside...

mary rosenblum

their own markets unless those markets overlap.

mary rosenblum

My mystery publishers could care less that I'm well known in SF.

mary rosenblum

Although those markets DO overlap.

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about knowing what you write. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

lore alley

Are there conferences for mainstream writers?

mary rosenblum

Oh yes, of course. The Willamette Writers conference here in Portland is one,

mary rosenblum

So is the Tacoma Writers Conference.

mary rosenblum

Those two I know about.

mary rosenblum

I'm guessing there are more 'general' writers conferences than genre conferences.

oddangel

Do you think the James Frey debacle is going to sour the memoir market?

mary rosenblum

Good point, odd. Yes, I think it will make editors more cautious...

mary rosenblum

they will want to be more certain of the author's facts.

mary rosenblum

It's hard to say if it will affect the reading public's perception of memoirs.

mary rosenblum

It sure didn't hurt Frey's sales any! There is NO bad publicity.

janecj333

What you're saying is that new writers, even the now well-known and extraordinarily-talented, are badly-treated by the current agenting process. It just doesn't give me much hope, I'm sorry to say.

mary rosenblum

Jane!!! For pete's sake! Greg's thirty novels are LOUSY! he's the first to admit that, LOL!

mary rosenblum

Talent is as talent does but nobody writes perfectly the first time they sit down to the keyboard! LOL

mary rosenblum

I've got my own share of LOUSY in my background, too!

mary rosenblum

We all do.

jyinxy

well it dosen't help being on oprah's bad list

mary rosenblum

Well, Frey will have trouble selling some things in the future, that's for sure.

mary rosenblum

I wrote novels that were good learning experiences, but I'll sure never sell 'em!

mary rosenblum

Remember that writing is a craft.

mary rosenblum

While you might sit down at the piano the first time and play a Beethoven concerto...it is not likely.

mummsy

did you try to sell them Mary?

mary rosenblum

Sure! why write 'em if you don't want people to read 'em?

mary rosenblum

There is nothing wrong with writing work, submitting it, and getting rejected.

mary rosenblum

You keep writing, you keep getting better.

mummsy

so you can tell a writer by his/her broad shoulders?

mary rosenblum

By their good typing muscles! :-)

geezer

A little sour grapes. Ted Dekker has put out about a dozen books since 2000 and he will have 3 this year. He didn't sell anything until he borrowed Bill Bright of Campus Crusade's name.

mary rosenblum

Well, you know, the publishing world is huge, sales count, and alas, you can also find...

mary rosenblum

plenty of examples of really awful writing that gets published right off the bat.

mary rosenblum

It has readers, it's poorly written, but it sells. It can drive you up a wall if you let it...

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but it just depends on what matters to you.

mary rosenblum

Good matters to me. It matters to the writers I respect.

mary rosenblum

I know writers who write anything for money and they don't have any intention...

mary rosenblum

do doing anything more than the minimum. It's a day job.

mary rosenblum

A lot of what you'll find in writing is what you bring to it.

mummsy

sometimes reading a poor writer makes me feel better

mary rosenblum

Good for you, mummsy! ANd that's the right attitude. I can do BETTER.

geezer

It is discouraging because Dekker is an award winning author. He did Three.

mary rosenblum

So I don't think I'm understanding this. Did he succeed after he used someone else's universe? Or wrote under their name?

mary rosenblum

This is the Tuesday Forum with me Mary Rosenblum LR Web Editor, fiction and nonfiction writer. We're talking about knowing what you write. If you're new here, remember that you need to click on the Ask a Question button or the word bubble next to the red question mark at the top of the screen, or use the ask a question icon in order to ask a question. Your regular send bar won't reach me! You can also type /ask in front of your question in your regular send bar to reach me.

jyinxy

how did you first come up with the idea of Europa?

mary rosenblum

Ah, I have a contract to write a 10,000 word story for a SF anthology due in June...

mary rosenblum

and I wanted a fun new world to play around in. And Europa has been in the science news lately...

mary rosenblum

as a potential ice and water moon, so it fit the bill.

mary rosenblum

I had to come up with a character and plot.

geezer

His first book said it was by Bill Bright and Ted Dekker. The second by Ted Dekker and Bill Bright . After that he used only Ted Dekker. His 4th book was a best seller.

mary rosenblum

Ah, but you know what? That may well have been Bright giving Dekker a hand up.

mary rosenblum

Anne McCaffery does that all the time.

mary rosenblum

She'll team up with a novice writer and it'll be by Anne McCaffery and Roberta Whomever.

mary rosenblum

She does it to get them published and if they take off their own and do well, she's thrilled.

mary rosenblum

Other writers do this, too.

geezer

So where's my angel?

mary rosenblum

They don't knock on your door, geeze. :-) You have to find them.

mary rosenblum

The cooperations I've known....and I've done a few in short fiction...

mary rosenblum

come from friendships between established writers and a newbie.

mary rosenblum

That person might critique for the writer, belong to the same writers group...

mary rosenblum

or just get to be a friend and end up mentored by the established writer...

mary rosenblum

and they eventually pair up on a project.

jyinxy

so how would we go about "conning" these known writers into helping us?

mary rosenblum

If you have the chance to become friends with a writer, don't let the friendship drop.

jackie7777

Could I simply write a particular author and ask?

mary rosenblum

No, jackie. I really doubt you would succeed that way.

mary rosenblum

When I've done it, it has been with someone I had swapped crits with...

mary rosenblum

so I knew their writing style fit mine, and they were writing well enough that I wasn't going to...

mary rosenblum

have to fix their stuff.

mary rosenblum

It wasn't MY story in any case. It was a blend of our styles and ideas...

mary rosenblum

not a case of 'send me something, I'll edit it and stick my name on it'.

mummsy

do you write at the same time everday?or when the mood hits?

mary rosenblum

Now it's more the latter, mummsy. I do a lot of my work on scraps of paper and in my head. For example, I was sitting up in bed at 4 AM this moring, writing a scene of my Europa story on a ...

mary rosenblum

notepad in pen. :-)

mary rosenblum

But I'm quite willing to drop everything and hit the keyboard when the words are ready to go.

mary rosenblum

When I first started, I had two very young children, I was a single mom...

mary rosenblum

and writing time came rarely. So I had regular writing time.

mary rosenblum

The minute I put the kids to bed I hit that keyboard and didn't stop until I fell asleep there...

mary rosenblum

usually after midnight.

mummsy

i always thought i'd write my first novel on post it notes

mary rosenblum

I wrote my second one that way. :-)

mary rosenblum

You have to write a LOT to get better.

mary rosenblum

At first quantity REALLY matters.

mary rosenblum

I wrote hundreds of thousands of words....many of them in stories or novel ms that really were not good enough to publish...

mary rosenblum

although I couldn't see that then! :-)

mary rosenblum

But the more I wrote the more I learned. I did it right by accident at first...

mary rosenblum

then I figured out how to do it on purpose...

mary rosenblum

and now, I can generally write something publishable, although the editor I send it to might not like it enough to buy it...

mary rosenblum

it's not bacause it's not well writting. But I"m always getting better.

mummsy

does it hurt to have several projects on the go at once?

mary rosenblum

It works for me.

mary rosenblum

I usually have at least three in progress.

mary rosenblum

As soon as I feel 'oh, no, I"ve got to go work on....' I switch to another project...

mary rosenblum

In a way, it's avoidance behavior turned to good use. :-)

mary rosenblum

To avoid the project I'm getting stale on, I work on something else.

mary rosenblum

Then I 'avoid' it by working on project three...or one...

oddangel

And here I was feeling guilty about not being focused!

mary rosenblum

Everybody finds their own working method, odd, but I get tunnel vision if I stick with something too long...

mary rosenblum

and stop seeing the creative possibilities.

mary rosenblum

I was working on my urban fantasy, it was slowing down, and then I had a great insight on the Europa...

mary rosenblum

story and spent part of last night working on it.

mummsy

i found my mind wanders if i stay at the same one too long

mummsy

that's comforting, Mary, feels like i'm on the right track

mary rosenblum

Just as long as you finish projects once in awhile, mummsy. :-)

mary rosenblum

I do know people who never finish anything. Hard to publish that way.

mummsy

oh, i do, i've had several feature articles published so far

mary rosenblum

Good for you, Mummsy!

mary rosenblum

Probably the best thing you can do as a starting writer is write a LOT...

mary rosenblum

and keep sending it out.

mary rosenblum

You'll get rejection slips, but you always have something new in the works...

mary rosenblum

and the more editors see your name and see you getting better...

mary rosenblum

the sooner you'll sell.

mary rosenblum

They'll know your name long before you make that first sale, in most cases. :-)

mary rosenblum

If you're not sure what you write, see if you can find something that is generally similar.

mary rosenblum

See who published it.

mary rosenblum

Bookstore browsing is a great market research tool.

geezer

Off topic. Have the spots for the novel course been filled? I haven't heard anything since they sent me a letter.

mary rosenblum

They're signing people up right and left, geeze.

mary rosenblum

They have their instructors lined up and it's open to graduated LR students.

mary rosenblum

If you're interested you can call 'em.

mary rosenblum

Well, this has been a fun Oregon hour.

mary rosenblum

Moslty write what matters to you. Then find your market. Don't worry. You fit somewhere!

lily2

How do you handle self doubt. Lately I've been wondering if I'm good enough

mary rosenblum

Ah, honey, none of us ever gets past that entirely! Your self doubts just change in nature, that's all!

mary rosenblum

It's something you simply have to drive through, the way you'd drive through fog.

mary rosenblum

Remember...you are your own worst judge of your own abilities.

mary rosenblum

Thanks for coming all!

mary rosenblum

Do join us tomorrow for our casual chat...

mary rosenblum

here in the auditorium. Same time, same place...

mary rosenblum

it's just a time to hang out and talk about writing. Whatever.

mary rosenblum

Have a good week, all!

mary rosenblum

Bye!

 

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