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Mary Rosenblum
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Hello all.
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I hope you're enjoying spring
weather and spring inspiration. Welcome to our Professional Connection live
interview.
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Tonight my guest is a longtime
friend and fellow writer, Nancy Varian Berberick.
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Nancy Varian Berberick is the
author of ten fantasy novels and a couple of dozen short stories. Under the
by-line Nancy Virginia Varian, she's written a children's novel that's
rambling around in the pipeline with a few upcoming short stories for grown
ups. Nancy
has been an instructor for Long Ridge Writers Group since 204 and is
delighted to e part of the faculty for Shape, Write and Sell Your Novel.
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Nancy, I'm so pleased to have you back to visit again.
Welcome!
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Thanks, Mary
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It's great to be here again.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Research is something that
gives novice writers a lot of trouble.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I can understand that. I found
it daunting at first, too. Back when I was writing Shadow of the Seventh
Moon.
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Mary Rosenblum
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How much, at what stage do you
begin writing, how do you keep track of it all?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Keep track .. hm. You know, I
really don't. I don't have file cards
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and such until I'm really
comfortable in my subject.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Let's see...you write both
fantasy and historical fiction, right?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Well .. sort of. Most of my
non-Dagonlance work is historical fantasy. I'm just starting
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to work on a non-fantasy novel
about -- pirates!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, cool to the pirate novel!
Is this aiming for the historical fiction market?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I hope so. My agent tells me
to just write and not worry about the market yet, but
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I can't imagine what else it
would be. :-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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How much research do you have
to do for historical fantasy? Can't you just make it all up?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Oh, I wish I could make it all
up. Nope, it's a lot of reading
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This is why I tell people to
write what you love -- you're going to do a lot of reading bout it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So what do you end up
researching for one of your historical fantasies? Where do you begin?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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These days, I'm fairly well
versed in the subject matter. (They're all Garroc stories!) But I do have
to refresh myself when I start a new one
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However, at the beginning, I
acquired quite a library about Anglo Saxon times
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's right. Garroc's world
was pretty solidly based on Anglo-Saxon culture, right?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Right, with a smattering of
Welsh and Norse lore. I began with a yen to know more about "Beowulf"
and .. ended up writing about Garroc.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Interesting. (And it's a time period
that has always fascinated me, which is probably why I enjoyed Garroc's
adventures)...
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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But I still collect
translations of "Beowulf." One day, Mary, I'm going to translate
that puppy myself.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Wow...I'm impressed.
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And I'm curious...
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Curious? About the
translating?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Did you choose to use real
Anglo-Saxon culture in order to give it an historical flavor or simply to
give your world consistency?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Ah, yes I chose the culture
for that reason. I got tired of Tolkien knock-offs and decided to ground
the stories in the real world.
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Actually, I chose the period
at Doug Clark's suggestion.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Good for you! So where did you
start? How much did you feel you needed to know before you could put Garroc
onstage, so to speak.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I felt like I needed to know
EVERYTHING! My first mistake. But I enjoyed trying to learn it all
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Mary Rosenblum
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How come it was a mistake?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I've come to know that what I
need to know is just enough to sound like I know what I'm talking about.
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gwanny
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How do you keep from getting
yourself bogged down in research? When do you know that enough is enough?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Okay, how come it was a
mistake: because I spent all kinds of time reading everything under the sun
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only to learn that I needed authenticity,
not a thesis paper
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Bogging down in research can
be a problem gwanny. I really LOVE doing research. I know I'm bogged own
when I'm not creating, just making notes in the computer or my journal.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Do you have any 'rule of thumb'
for when you've amassed enough research details that you can safely begin
chapter one?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Yes, when I feel like I can
take the reader to the place where the first chapter begins. I want him to
smell the place
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feel it, taste it -- be there.
If I can do that -- I'm good to go.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So then you continue to add to
your research as you write the draft?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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All the time. Now that I'm
writing bout Jamaica in the early 1800's this is taking a bit
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longer than I'm used to. But I
have that first chapter written and I'll go on making notes and reading
from there.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Do you ever hit a point where
you know where the story needs to go, but you have to stop and do research
first?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Oh, for sure. I'm there now.
I'd love to get the early chapters to my agent
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but I know I have to do much
more work on making them sound "real." This is when I begin to
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burrow into he diaries and
journals of folks who lived during that time.
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Mary Rosenblum
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How do you handle that, when
the story nags at you but you need more facts? Do a summary? Just grind
your teeth?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I just grit my teeth. I do
make notes in the books I'm reading.
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I'm good and start out using
post-it notes, but I finally have to write in the margins: THIS for chapter
3, THAT
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for chapter 4.
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iamnina
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How do you organize all that
material?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Ultimately, I collect it into
primary sources, secondary sources, maps, and ideas.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Ah...so what does each of those
categories include?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I know that primary sources --
letters, journals, diaries, newspaper article, etc. will tell me about how people
lived, what they ate, wore, thought, sang .
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Secondary sources are what
others think about the time and place; historians and so on.
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Maps and ideas pretty much
dwell in my computer so I can grab them fast.
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janecj333
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I always worry that research
material will look just like that...research...if I plot it in as an
exercise in making it sound right. I love when writers write as if they
live the milieu, as if you could step into their story and the WAY they are
telling it is the way it would really have happened.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Isn't that where skill comes
in, Nancy?
Turning that 'research' into 'being there?"
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Mary, you're right. Skill, and
having read so much about the time and place that you feel like you're
writing
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about your own town.
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Mary Rosenblum
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What is your best source for
that 'your own town' feeling? The primary sources?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Yes, the primaries. that's
where a writer will find the sensory descriptions, the lay of the land, the
sound of people's voices.
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Oh, wow. A side note -- I hope
y'all will forgive my typing! Long day writing
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Mary Rosenblum
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Where do you find those primary
sources...especially for a time so far in the past?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Well, for the Dark Ages, I
resort to the histories written at the time, poetry and whatever else was
created then.
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For my pirate story, it's a
whole lot easier. I'm reading journals now and I've found a real treasure
trove on the Deep Web, or Invisible Internet.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oooh, tell us about the Deep
Web. (Mary's ears prick up).
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Doesn't that sound wonderful?
I'm just learning about it now. For one thing, it's utterly free of ads!
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For another, it's a pipeline
into academia. Yummy
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Just google on Invisible Web
and you8'll find all kinds of ways in.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oooh, will do, Nancy, thanks.
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Is it mostly academic
information?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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So far, that's what I'm
finding. Some of it is free, other things require a fee to access. But it's
like Christmas for any researcher.
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Maps, journals, letters -- the
real life writing of real people.
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qwerty
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Do you ever worry about getting
it wrong?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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All the Time. ;-) But I try to
keep as close to real as I can.
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And, thing is, history is
changing. It's alive. each time someone makes a new discovery --
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we're all groaning and
thinking we'd like to rewrite our books and stories.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Do you feel that you have a bit
more leeway, writing historical fantasy, as opposed to something that will
be read as historical fiction? (And I'm laughing...every time another
probe...
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gets sent out, all us SF
writers cringe!)
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Leeway ... yes for fantasy. I
don't take too many liberties, but when I'm writing in the AS period, no
one agrees with anyone about what really happened -- and those are the people
who lived then!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Have you ever had a fan
complain that you got something wrong?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Whoo! Boy have I. Those would
be the Dragonlance fans. So far I haven't tripped up on anything obvious in
Garroc's stories.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Really? The fans are well
versed enough in Anglo Saxon culture to catch you on mistakes?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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DL fans are. They're a pretty
smart group. But, I'm always happy to learn more.
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megger
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Nancy, is there a particular online site you feel is a good
resource for more ancient maps?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Hm. How ancient is ancient? If
you're talking the Dark Ages and earlier, I'd trust a google search on the
subject: Dark Ages; maps and see what you get. They’re changing all
the time.
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But by and large, I trust
academic sites over hobby sites.
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megger
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Medieval actually
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Ok, look at a site called the
orb. I don't know if it's a .com or .edu
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but a google search will find
it.
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Megger -- you should also
start roaming around the Invisible Web and see what's there.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Here's a link to an explanatory
site for the invisible web: invisible
web link
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What about libraries, Nancy? Aren't they
still useful? Our Oregon Historical Society is full of antique hand drawn
maps and so forth...diaries...letters...claim books.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Oh, libraries -- absolutely. I
don't get out to libraries much any more, the internet has corrupted me.
And there's UNM's library right up the road!
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Bu now and then we'll take a
trek and sit around all day ooh-ing and ahh-ing,.
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info
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Being as you write with
historical facts, do your maps tend to be what the country looked like at
the time instead of being made up?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I try hard to strike a
balance. I'm encountering that problem with Jamaica now. Do I talk about how the people saw it, or how my readers
will know it?
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Same thing with language.
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Mary Rosenblum
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So how do you deal with the
problem that if you stay true to your POV, your readers may not know what
he or she is talking about?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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A little goes a long way,
that's the rule. I'm encountering the problem with language now.
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The owner of a plantation
swill speak of her slaves in ways that make me gag --
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but she gets to have her
words. I must be care that the narrative voice speaks to 21st century sensibilities
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Mary Rosenblum
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Do you ever worry that some
readers might attribute your character's values to you?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Yes. It’s happened in
the past. But I feel that if I keep the narrative voice strongly anchored
in the here and now -- I won't use
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awful words to describe a
salve, he'll be described as human being, my intent should be clear.
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Mary Rosenblum
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And let's face it, you can't
avoid that without writing fiction that is oppressively politically
correct.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Exactly. My feeling is, when I
write about a particular period, my duty is to the story, the time, and the
reality of the time.. Readers are intelligent enough to get it if they want
to.
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If they don't want to, they
have an axe to grind and no business with me.
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qwerty
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Your student Alan in Spokane say's, Howdy!!!!
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Have you ever learned a language
to write in voice?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Hullo, Alan!!
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Yes, I learned Old English to
write Garroc's stories in first person narrative. Fun, fun, fun!
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's so cool, Nancy. :-)
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Really hard to find a native
speaker to check your prose with it's Old English.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Thanks. I've been in live with
OE since high school, and learning the language for real gives Garroc an
authentic voice. Working Jamaican patois now ...
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Well, yeah -- so no one's
going to complain about my accent. ;-) But the rhythms work well for a
feeling of reality.
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qwerty
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With me, it's Romani, and it
kind of scares me.
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Getting it wrong, I mean.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Why, Alan? Are you going to
learn the whole language? Or are you reading and listening for rhythms?
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qwerty
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Speaking in character, Serena
for example.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Oh, getting it wrong. What are
your sources? Are they oral or written?
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qwerty
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Both, but I don't know any
Gypsies.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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If you have oral sources,
listen to them. Get a feel for the rhythms and how words go together. Learn
the accent and write that way. Drop in a real word now and then ... and
you'll get the hang.
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cosmos
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What are your best tips for
creating powerful characters that jump off the page and that readers love?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Especially when that character
lives in a very different culture?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Everyone wants something, no
matter when thy lived. Find out what your characters want, take it away
from them, give them a reason to fight for it ... the idea is to write
about what will connect your character to your reader. The common things we
all feel.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Human universals in other
words?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Exactly, Mary. We can use the
differences to enhance the sense of time and place, but in the end your
readers will want to read about people they can feel for.
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Let's face it, I wouldn’t'
really want to hang around with some guy from 6th century Britain.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's really the key to
historical fiction of any sort isn't it? Creating characters who are
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recognizably human even if they
don't act like us?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Yes. I love stories where the
characters have one foot in each world, so to speak.
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janecj333
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When you began to write fantasy
did you set yourself boundaries that you didn't want to cross, such as
dragons, yes, but trolls, no?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I recognize their feelings,
but their world is exotic and fascinating to me. I think historical fiction
fails when it's just 21st century people in period drag.
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Jane, I wanted to write
everything. I fell in love with dwarfs, though -- highly under regarded --
and ended up in a Norse kinds of space. I'm still there.
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janecj333
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After hearing so much emphasis
in sf writing on who did what, I realized yesterday (in a chat with a
literary author) that there is more to writing than just getting people
from here to there, and making sure someone steps in their way. Does
fantasy lend itself to more literary writing than sf?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I don't think so. I think,
alas, that literary writing is not well regarded. What counts is the action
and if you can smoosh a bit of characterization in there, that's okay.
Jonathan Strand & Mr. Norrell nothwithstanding.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, I'm going to have to put my
two cents worth in here. While a lot of both fantasy and SF are action
driven entertainment fiction...
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you do have writers who have other
agendas and the plot/action is secondary. Nancy Kress is one, for example,
in SF...there are a goodly number.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Well, I'll bow to that. I
might just be still pouting that Jonathan Strange 7 Mr. Noreell didn't get
the Nebula.
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Mary, maybe it's easier in
short fiction.
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Mary Rosenblum
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I think it's actually easier in
novel form...because you have more room to work in more plot. :-)
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I want to go back a bit here
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because I think you said
something very powerful and I'd like to pursue it...
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Oh, if I were writing with no
restriction, I'd agree with you. But having written for ACE and for
WIZARDS, I've encountered a lot of restriction. Hm Maybe I need to look at
SF?
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Mary Rosenblum
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That 'bad characterization' is
putting a twenty first century POV into 'period drag'. I see a lot of that
in SF too...they're in 'future drag'.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Yep. I value authenticity and
I'm a great fan of authors who can give it to me.
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megger
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21st century in drag....that's
was makes me wonder about something said earlier, unless I misunderstood,
and why we as writers should worry about being PC with the past?
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Mary Rosenblum
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Yes, how do you 'get' that
period mindset?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Very, carefully. It wasn't
hard working with Garroc, but the pirate story is going to be tough. My
first primary source was
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the journal of Lady Nugent,
the wife of the Gov. of Jamaica in the early 1899's. She was fairly liberal
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in her thinking. But she still
sent the slaves on ahead to see if the river was safe to cross. Lost two
guys one night, not a word to say.
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Gave me the chills.
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info
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Can you explain what you mean by
'period drag' or 'future drag'? I got a little lost on that one.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Period drag -- that's dressing
a character in period costume, but not attempting to make her behave like a
person who lived in the time. For example,
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If I were writing about
someone like lady Nugent, I could go only so far with her liberalism. She'd
take care of her slave, make sure they lived well, but
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she'd tell her husband to
shoot anyone who offered to harm her. Or she'd still call them "blackes"
or other unpleasant names. She was who she was.
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kashmir
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It would be like Jennifer
Aniston playing Scarlett O'Hara in her Friends persona, right?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Yes! And speaking of Miss Scarlett
-- that is one fine period drama. A good example of what I'm talking about.
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janecj333
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Death in the 1890's, be it the
chicken for the pot or a man drowning because some aristocrat couldn't be
bothered to wait a week for the river to go down, must have been pretty
common.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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It was. And in Jamaica at the time,
people dropped like flies. Yellow fever was the terror of the European
population.
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Slaves were property first and
people ... often not at all.
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janecj333
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And that's what milieu is
about...recreating how people might have acted because we can't possibly
know.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Well, you do find primary
sources, right Nancy?
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That must help.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Diaries and Journals are easy
to find. So are reproductions of period newspaper. Libraries and book
stores -- old ones -- are good for that
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there's nothing like
"hearing" a real person's voice in her journal.
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Mary Rosenblum
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How did you create a voice for Garroc
when you must find very few personal journals from that time period?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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What, you think he didn't keep
a journal? You think I'm making this all up?
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*grin* I used poetry,
historical records, letters and the Chronicle.
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This was the period when the
Church was colonizing England, and the priests and monks loved to write.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh that's true.
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megger
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As I understand it, the monks
and priests were about the only ones who did!
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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And the kings were happy to
learn how to do it to -- or hire [people to. They were writing every chance
the could.
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No, no really. The fashion
became to create your family's history and kings learned to write, their
wives did, and so did poets. Unfortunately, much as been lost and so what remains
gives a skewed picture.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Foxx has been trying to send a
question to the stage along these lines...
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Foxx asked if people might not
have written what they thought should be rather than what actually
was...ancient political correctness?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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About who wrote when? I'm not
saying everyone wrote, but the wealthy learned, the kings did. We don't
have a lot of original material, but
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when you read between the
lines of hat we do have, you see that there are references to works that no
longer exist. :-(
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Mary Rosenblum
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So does your historical
research give you a changed perspective on events of today? Do you find
'people are people' even across the ages?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Foxx -- when you're talking
about the monks, perhaps yes!
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Mary, that's a great question.
In ways, I do find that humanity has constants,
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things in common that we all
understand. But, as I said, I wouldn't want to hang out in the hall of a
REAL 6th century Saxon king. Eeeeww!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Do you find that you need to
alter some things so that you don't have to do a lot of explaining or can
you make things pretty clear through context.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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For me, it isn't a matter of
altering things, it's a matter of using material that will be clear in
context. In other words,
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use what the story and the
reader need.
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klmiller
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Sorry I'm late. Does the writing
of a given time ALWAYS reflect those times? Usage and vocabulary can be
invented to imitate a style from the past can't it?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Hm. I think it's a matter of
what the author knows the reader will get. I could have a ball using Old
English all over the place,
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but my readers would probably
go find another book to read. So, I use a word, a phrase, then imitate
speech patterns in modern English.
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Mary Rosenblum
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How's that working with the
Jamaican patois?
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What was that a mix of?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Pretty well, actually. Today I
just got a copy of Matthew Lewis' journal of his two years on his
plantations. The patois is a mix
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of English, French and
African. A little of that goes a long way!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Wow, what a mix of rhythms,
too!
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I'll be using reasonably
modern English, but with a 'accent". A bit of patois here and there,
then back to catching the rhythm and casting modern English that way.
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cosmos
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As one of the faculty for the LR
novel writing course, what is your best advice for students taking the
course?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Read, read read. Then write,
write, write. Learning to write is a process, not an even. ;-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's good advice for anyone
aspiring to writing!
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klmiller
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Do you think readers will be
turned off by or necessarily notice if you don't have a tight grasp of a
language if you only use a hint or smattering of that language?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I don't think so. When I write
historical fantasy, or now when I'm writing the pirate chicks book, the
promise is to tell a good story.
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I think of the language as
part of setting, not part of story.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Consider this...if your reader
doesn't speak that language, a lot of it will shut that reader out of many
conversations.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Exactly. Funny you should put
it that way. When I was researching OE, many of the books I used were
written
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in a time when readers would
be expected to know Latin and German and French. Well, not me, and
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I was shut out of a lot of
information that was not translated.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Here's a question, Nancy. Geezer thought
it was 'off topic' but it's not. We've been talking about 'rhythms' of
language without either of us really explaining what that means.
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geezer
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Off topic for Mary. Maybe for a
future topic you could for we that are tone deaf give examples of how to
write the rhythm of Spanish, French, etc.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Want to explain?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Okay, I'll try. Geezer, when
you read a language that, say, from the romantic tradition -- French,
Italian, Spanish, the grammar is different from English and that creates
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a pattern that hearing people
know as rhythm. Subject, verb can often be verb then subject. German is
much like this too. So looking at the grammar
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of the language I want to imitate
will allow me to use that patter or rhythm if you will when writing in modern
English.
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Mary Rosenblum
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That's a good way to handle
dialect, too, isn't it?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Another thing to look at is a
translation of a book from another language. The translator tries to
preserve the sense of the original language, and so you hear the rhythm of
it in reading.
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Yes, Mary, a great way to
handle dialect. Which should NEVER be over done! ;-)
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Mary Rosenblum
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Before we run out of time, Nancy, tell us about
the Jamaica
novel! Any new stories or books coming out soon?
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Any chance you'll be at World
Fantasy Con this year?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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The Jamaica novel is in
the works, it's a pirate story about two women who learn that they are half
sister. One is the daughter of a slave, the other of the plantation owner.
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New stories ... yes, another Garroc
story, and one that tells the alternate tale of what would have happened if
Pilate stayed Jesus' sentence.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, that's cool, Nancy. Is that a Dragonlance
book?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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No, I'm afraid traveling is
difficult for me these days. Hauling the wheelchair around
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is a drag, and MS is a real
energy eater. I miss the cons!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Ah, I’m sorry to miss
you, Nancy.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Yep. It's tough. I stick to
the hometown cons now.
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geezer
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Ahar. Thank ye, Nancy.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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To answer you earlier question,
the pirate novel is my own baby. No Dragonlance for a while. :-)
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Yer welcome, matey!
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Mary Rosenblum
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I figured the pirate was your
baby. What about the Garroc story...the alternate Pilate story?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Garroc story coming out in
2007, the alternate history coming out in the fall. That one I loved
writing. I think
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it's my favorite this year. What
a strange and touching situation .
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh, cool, what's the title of
the alternate history?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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"Yeshua's Choice".
What will he do with the rest of his life now that he isn't going to
sacrifice it for the sake of the world
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Mary Rosenblum
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Wow, girl, you tackled a BIG
alternate history topic!
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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I grew up Catholic and know
the story well, but looking at it this way ... well I had a new
appreciation of it.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Who's bringing it out?
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Hah! No, the problem was the whole
thing as too big. I had to narrow it down to what would happen to one man.
Because essentially, the world would not
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have known that anything was
different. Only Yeshua would know.
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Daw will publish the anthology,
the title of the antho is Time twister.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Cool! I'll have to watch for
it.
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Well, we've actually kept you a
bit over time.
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Thank you so much for coming.
This was a fascinating topic, and you brought us a lot to think about.
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And some great tips.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Mary, I had a great time.
Thanks all for putting up with the typos!
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Mary Rosenblum
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Oh you're far from the worst,
dear. You've been a great guest.
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Keep me posted on the Jamaica story!
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That sounds SO cool.
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Hey, you know what was fun?
Meeting one of my students!
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ashton
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Thanks for taking the time to
share with us, Nancy. Have a great night...and avoid those storms...
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Mary Rosenblum
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Thank you all for coming!
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Nancy Varian Berberick
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Ashton, thanks. We're actually
hoping for the storm, but I know what you mean. ;-)
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Night all.
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Mary Rosenblum
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Thank you all for coming.
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Good night, Nancy!
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Good night all, and have a
great weekend!
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