Researching the Historical Fantasy with Irene Radford 3/27/03

Mary Rosenblum

Hi, all! We'll be getting started shortly, as soon as Irene shows up. This is our regular Professional Connection live interview with me, Mary Rosenblum, your Web Editor.

Irene has been writing stories ever since she figured out what a pencil was
for. Author of the MERLIN'S DECENDANTS Series, the DRAGON NIMBUS Series, the DRAGON NIMBUS HISTORY Series, and most recently, in the STORY OF THE STARGODS, she has combined her love of history with a fascination with the paranormal. Irene has most recently been working on the Merlin’s Descendents Series and gave me a copy of her latest, Guardian of the Promise, which is out next week. I'm a total fan of the Arthurian myths and I ended up staying up until nearly 2 AM reading the book last night...er...this morning. Her historical details are wonderful. And I really enjoyed it.

Irene, welcome! We're so pleased to have you here tonight!

I want you all to know that Irene lives up on Mount Hood, outside of Portland and when ALL the phones up there went down today, she was willing to drive down into the valley and plug her laptop into my office phone! Fortunately the line came back up, so she's still up on the mountain.

Mary Rosenblum

Want to tell us about your research on your Arthurian series? Why is research important? The world is made up anyway, right?

Irene Radford

In historical fantasy I am dealing with

actual historical periods with characters out of history.

It is important that I get the history right

to make the story believable.

Generally I start with a biography of a pivotal character...

from the period, ie King John, or Elizabeth I.

Then I move into the sociology -- every day life and times.

I have several books on costuming as well.

For Promise I read an entire book on the

Spanish Armada. I learned more about ship building

and gunpowder storage than I could ever put inot a book.

Mary Rosenblum

I've talked in my Forums about research ending up as an iceberg

with only the tip showing in your story.

Irene Radford

Right. If I put in every detail the book would be boring and

ten times as big as it is. It's already a doorstop.

I have a terrible problem in not recognizing what

is fascinating history to me but just a big info dump for the reader.

Thank heaven for good first readers.

Mary Rosenblum

Does it ever cost you a pang to leave out some particularly choice bit of detail?

Irene Radford

Yes. But I have to be ruthless in order to keep the reader interested.

gskearney

What kind of notes do you take? Do you focus on your story or just look for general details. --gk

Irene Radford

I start with basic chronology and events,

but I keep notes on historical characters and how they affect the period too.

mbvoelker

Could you repeat the question about why do research for fantasy in a made up world?

Irene Radford

The historical fantasies are not made up worlds.

The events in those books take place in actual times so I need

to keep the history right.

In the dragon fantasies I do make up the world,

but I want to keep the world believable.

For instance, in THE GLASS DRAGON,

I wanted glass to be rare and expensive,

but silcon, the primary ingredient, is the most common

element in the galaxy. Therefore I had to research

why glass might be rare and expensive.

Since I have no science background, I asked a glassblower.

Mary Rosenblum

And how did you pull it off? I'm fascinated.

Irene Radford

Impurities. They make glass very brittle and murky.

In my world they did not have the technology to

burn out the impurities. Only dragons could make

the fire hot enough and dragons were not willing

to become industrial machines.

Mary Rosenblum

So in other words, instead of simply taking the easy route, you spent the time to come up a plausible reason for your valuable glass

instead of simply saying...'this is the way it is in this world'.... Do you think
that this kind of verisimilitude is important?

Irene Radford

Yes. It makes the books that much more believable

and adds interesting conflict.

Verisimiltude is always important. It allows

the reader to dive into the book and feel closer

to the characters, identify with them and to

live the story with them.

Mary Rosenblum

You were talking about your characters --

how sometimes they took over

and you ended up with less history than you planned. How do you

start your books? With a planned outline, or do they evolve as they progress?

Irene Radford

I always start with a synopsis, a skelaton of a plot.

Then I start telling how the characters move through the history.

But sometimes the characters take over and have a deeper

story to tell than I thought. They have the final say.

Mary Rosenblum

Where do you start?

I love historical fiction, but I find the prospect of that much

research utterly daunting.

Irene Radford

With a pivotal event in the lives of the character.

We make history every day. Just watch the news.

How does that change our lives?

That's where I start.

As to the amount of research,

I'm a history major by profession and passion.

I'm getting paid to play with my hobby.

Mary Rosenblum

Aha! I knew there was a use for those history PhDs! :-)

Which do you think is more important to a fantasy, Irene?

Irene Radford

Mine's only a BA from Lewis & Clark College.

Mary Rosenblum

Big details or small details?

Irene Radford

They both play an important part. Big

details offer a frame work. Small

details make the history live.

Mary Rosenblum

Good point.

Also, I'd like to talk about series for a moment.

I know a number of students here on the site

are interested in writing a series, and I know you just sold a new one.

So how do you plot for your series? Do you look ahead, and how far? Or

does the next book simply pop into your mind each time you finish one?

Irene Radford

Both. I work hard to make certain each book

can be read independently. In the first three books

of the Dragon Nimbus, I had a definite

story arc with a different primary character,

dealing with his/her portion of the arc.

In the new series, each book will be a

single story about the same characters.

The story arc for the series is much longer and

more gradual, with no definite ending.

Mary Rosenblum

So this series is a series of adventures with the same main characters? Is that it?

Irene Radford

Yes. It takes place in an alternate now.

Everything is the same as the modern world except

for the presence of demons, and other dimensions --

and magic of course.

Mary Rosenblum

So this is really contemporary fantasy?

Irene Radford

Yes. similar to Laurel Hamilton's or

Anita Blake’s books but less graphically violent and

I want to put morals in every story --

have the characters grow in their spirituality,

as well as their abilities to deal with

supernatural foes.

Mary Rosenblum

When you sent in your proposal, how many books did you have to present to your publisher?

Did the publisher want a full synopsis of each?

Irene Radford

Since I have 12 books in print and

a reputation for writing on a deadline,

I sent in a synopsis for the first book plus 3 chapters,

plus a general outline of the shape of the series.

The publisher offered two books on the first contract.

Mary Rosenblum

So you really have some flexibility for the books following that first one, then?

Irene Radford

Yes. But that is because I have developed

a great relationship with my editor. Beginners

would have to have more of an outline for several books

with the proposal.

Mary Rosenblum

That's true.

You need to have proved that you can deliver what you promise!

annie

Does it really matter if you research the Arthur myths? They're fantasy too, right?

Irene Radford

The Arthurian myths may be fantasy

but a lot of people know everything there is to know

about them. Then there is the historical

Arthur, a different man entirely.

Irene Radford

Combining the two was a challenge

and true folklorists try to trip me up at every paragraph.

If I want to keep them as readers I have watch my mythology,

as well as history.

Mary Rosenblum

Sounds about as bad as writing about the Civil War!

Irene Radford

Worse.

Mary Rosenblum

My sympathies!

Irene Radford

Arthurian scholars perceive Arthur as a kind of religion.

Mary Rosenblum

I remember Marion Zimmer Bradley complaining about how she was so

picked on by those same scholars. She hated them!

That was for her Mists of Avalon book.

Irene Radford

Yet her book is still a bestseller in Hardcover and Trade Paperback.

Mary Rosenblum

And received a lot of critical acclaim, too.

mbvoelker

How do you go about finding experts on obscure topics? I have to deal with a rural library system and don't have a college within reach.

Irene Radford

If you have internet, you can research anything.

Powells City of Books has an online store if you can afford them.

Then there is always inter library loan.

I belong to a research e-list with a number of experts

on really bizarre topics.

They are also internet gurus and I let them do the

hard research and sorting for me.

Mary Rosenblum

Let me play devil's advocate here, remembering that not ALL writers are online,

and ask about non-internet sources. University libraries?

Irene Radford

University libraries are great.

Most library systems can get loans of books,

printouts of articles,

and access to databases through inter-library

loan. I use them extensively.

If you have a good long distance plan on your phone,

a call to the reference desk of a major library can

net you all kinds of information.

I have developed a relationship with

the University of Portland reference desk.

Irene Radford

They actually giggle when I call because they know

they will get to play with all kinds of sources in order to help me.

They are librarians for a reason.

Mary Rosenblum

And of course, most public libraries have internet access, so it's probably still a good first option for most.

Irene Radford

Many libraries have public computers you can use to

access the internet yourself.

Or have the reference people do it for you.

annie

Do you ever find that you change your plot as your do your research? Because of it, I mean?

Irene Radford

Rarely. Because I don't propose a book until

I have done at least some preliminary research.

However, research often adds something to the plot

that I did not expect,

like learning the Bishop of Paris in 1558 actually

resigned his position in 1564 and was nearly

written out of all Catholic records.

My reference librarians had a ball searching out

his name. They never did come up with a reason for his

resignation -- something unheard of. So I made up the reason

to fit my plot.

Mary Rosenblum

I was about to say you had an entire new novel waiting for you right there!

Irene Radford

That was one of the reason GUARDIAN OF THE VISION

became two books. Both of them doorstops.

mbvoelker

Rural libraries don't necessarily have that sort of trained research personnel and the costs of out of system ILLs have been prohibitive for me. :-) But what I most need to know is how to locate live experts whom I can write or email.

Irene Radford

Depending upon your topic, I have found

state agencies, like forensic experts,

or forestry people love to talk about their work.

Especially with the promise of a mention in the forward of

your book. Medical people are the same way.

Mary Rosenblum

Actually, if you find articles written by university people,

you can often write to them and receive an enthusiastic response.

Irene Radford

Or a call to the department head of a university or college

will get you answers even if its only a grad

student who has been handed the questions to deal with.

They are the best because research is their reason for being.

Mary Rosenblum

I have never had a university professor turn me away when I've asked for information.

I think they like being asked.

Finding out the name and address, Mary Beth, might be difficult,

depending on whether your rural library keeps college catalogues.

paja

What if your research precludes your hero's choice so that the character would now develop differently than you intended?

Irene Radford

paja: that takes some thought. I have never had it happen,

but I can see where it would. I won't vary the history so

sometimes the character has to evolve differently,

or be replaced with someone more malleable.

wendyk

Profnet.com can put you in touch with lots of experts.

Enter as a freelancer and give a description of your needs.

Irene Radford

I have never used that internet service.

If they work, go for it.

Mary Rosenblum

It sounds like an excellent site.

paja

So a hero can morph into a minor character because of research requirements and be replaced by a new character?

Irene Radford

I have not done this but I have friends who have kicked characters

out of their books because they would not behave. Or they

just did not have the right personality to mesh with the rest of the characters.

You are the author and supposed to have the final say,

but sometimes the characters know better. That type

is easier to deal with in regular fantasy.

In historicals, I insist the history is the foundation and can't

be messed with. My characters have to deal with that.

Mary Rosenblum

What about your non-historical fantasy, Irene?

Do you make your characaters give way to the 'history' you've created for that world

or do you change it to fit the characters?

Irene Radford

In the Dragon Nimbus books I had a situation where two characters took

the action into their own hands. They did

something I had not planned which changed the proposed

ending. I did not speak to either character for 3 weeks.

They still won the argument and it took me 2 more books

to solve the problems they created.

Mary Rosenblum

I’m laughing. :-)

But I suspect nearly everyone deals with this sooner or later.

Irene Radford

It made a stronger story and a better book.

Mary Rosenblum

What about organization? How do you keep track

of ALL that information?

Irene Radford

3X5 notecards on notebook rings. White for research,

color coded cards for scenes -- each POV character has their own color.

Post it notes all over the cards and the books that are kept within

easy reach or nearby.

Mary Rosenblum

Do you use a story board, or spread scenes out on a table? The stack could become overwhelming.

Irene Radford

Some people like big boards or long sheets of butcher paper.

I have never had the room, I work in a compact space and I

try to keep my tools compact as well.

Mary Rosenblum

So you deal with stacks? I'm impressed.

Irene Radford

Stacks that are organized on notebook rings by

subject or author or whatever.

Printouts from the internet or photocopies,

I keep in a folder nearby, but they aren't

nearly as numerous.

Mary Rosenblum

Okay. I think I’ve got it now. And do you have trouble finding information from say, your first book, while you're working on the third? Or do you keep a single running reference?

Irene Radford

Each of the historicals is an independent book.

References back to a previous one are generally names.

I keep cast of characters and a glossary in each book file on

the computer.

Mary Rosenblum

So are my the books in my mystery series -- independent -- but I was always amazed at how many nitpicky

details I needed to remember. Car colors. Cat names. so forth.

Irene Radford

I'm trying to bribe my brother to create an encyclopedia of my

dragon books now that there are 10 of them. That way when I go back

to that world after an absence I can keep track of names and places

and chronology.

Mary Rosenblum

That would be nice. Can I borrow your brother when he's done with your books? :-)

paja

Are these rings in notebooks or just held together by the individual rings?

Irene Radford

I use individual rings for the cards.

Old cards get thrown in a drawer with a label and rarely see

the light of day again.

Sometimes I will add the scene cards to an

uncorrected galley and donate them to a charity auction.

Mary Rosenblum

How difficult is it to create your fantasy world, when so much of the technology, dress, food, and so forth is totally unknown

to many readers?

Irene Radford

I start with one detail that is different from here and now,

then I build outward in a spiral.

Each detail hinges on what I have established.

Climate determines a lot in a fantasy world,

like food, clothing, buildings,

and culture is often a reaction to climate. That's the

best place to start.

Mary Rosenblum

Want to give us an example?

Irene Radford

Melissa Scott's book, that takes place on an ice world --

the title is on the tip of my tongue and I've gone blank --

but because survival depends upon cooperation

anyone who defies authority was killed.

Once the society evolved beyond basic survival they

kept the tradition of turning rebels and misfits into

"ghosts" They are no longer killed, but they become

socially dead. The story gets interesting when the number

of ghosts becomes unwieldly and a terrible drain on

resources. A fascinating study of a society on the verge of cracking.

Mary Rosenblum

Interesting. So it all begins with a single point

gskearney

I can remember that Bradley and Anne McCaffrey dealt with some of these problems by telling the reader that POV characters remembered details differently. Is this really a good idea?

Irene Radford

I do not like to do this. Better to go back and reread my own work,

or pertinent sections to keep my facts straight. More time

consuming but I think more satisfying in the end.

Mary Rosenblum

I have to agree, that I think it's better to take the time to get the details right, than take shortcuts,

but then, I'm perhaps justifying a lot of hours spent hunting those elusive details!

Irene Radford

Readers often have a longer memory than I do.

Mary Rosenblum

And a much more accurate one, I've found!

Irene Radford

They are the ultimate judges of our work.

Mary Rosenblum

So, Irene, are certain historical periods more difficult or easier to research than others?

Irene Radford

The life of King John was more obscure than Elizabeth I.

Fortunately some new researach has been done on his period.

The problem with Elizabeth was too much detail. Easier to

insert fictional characters into King John's life than Elizabeth's.

The historical Arthurian period, roughly 500 AD was

difficult because no two experts agree on anything.

I had to pick one and run with her theories,

and ignore the others just keep myself sane.

gskearney

I might have been a little misleading with the question. It's just that different characters will and should see events differently, so you can use this fact to solve discrepancies if you are careful with it.

Irene Radford

Certainly each character has a different perspective and

you can present these differences, but ultimately

you have to choose which one is accurate and

keep it accurate for the reader.

Mary Rosenblum

I want to chime in here, because I think that is the key.

ONE version is right, and I do think that it's important to let the reader know which one is.

Otherwise, you risk losing credibility with your reader.

Irene Radford

You can also loose credibility for the character.

It is important that the reader learn to trust one of them.

I hate books where the primary POV character is lying to

the readers and this is not revealed until the end.

paja

With climate being so fundamental to development, do you choose your climate, your characters, or your conflict first?

Irene Radford

Yes. Depends on how the idea for the book hits me.

Irene Radford

Sometimes I want a reaction to climate to justify a cultural quirk.

Sometimes the character knocks on the computer screen and demands

to tell the story.

Sometimes the idea of the conflict comes first.

In GUARDIAN OF THE PROMISE I heard that the Catholic Church

burned 3000 confirmed werewolves in the 16th C, and

I had to find a story to fit that fact.

As an example of climate,

in THE PERFFECT PRINCESS I had a desert culture.

These people honored motherhood.

A woman earned the RIGHT to bare her breasts, but

only after bearing and nursing a live child.

annie

So if we are looking for a period to set a story in, should we look for a popular time, like Rome? Or some time that isn't so well known? Which is better?

Irene Radford

Depends upon how much research YOU want to do.

The more popular the period, the more accurate you need to be.

I like to do both popular and obscure.

Popular periods generally have a lot of energy surrounding the events.

That presents opportunity for conflict and plot and characters reacting to both.

More obscure periods give me the opportunity to ferret out all kinds of

interesting facts, and playing history teacher to my readers.

I love both.

Mary Rosenblum

Irene, what kind of advice can you offer to an unpublished writer who wants to try historical fiction?

Irene Radford

Find something different about the era that hasn't been overdone,

then write a very human story that readers can sympathize with.

It is ultimately the characters that make the connection with the

reader. The history is just the backdrop.

But then I write character driven books rather than

plot driven. To me a plot driven historical is just another

history text.

Mary Rosenblum

Care to offer a few examples of 'well covered' historical periods or characters?

Irene Radford

Rome has already been mentioned. Colleen McCullough has

been doing that rather extensively.

Regency England or Napoleonic Eurpoe also has a lot of

devotees. Late Victorian and of course the US War Between

The States... that's my southern heritage coming through.

paja

How recent can historical fiction be?

Irene Radford

Yesterday as far as I'm concerned. Most editors seem to

put the line at pre WWII or pre 1900. Depends upon the

publishing house. The 1920's and 30's has recently

become popular in the historical mystery category.

Mary Rosenblum

Time marches on. :-)

Irene Radford

I put history as anything before I was born.

Mary Rosenblum

What kind of advice can you offer to the fantasy writer who doesn't have your track record as far as how to propose a fantasy series to an editor?

Irene Radford

Start with a good synopsis. I believe there will be an article

on the subject written by me on this web site

within a few weeks. You also have to complete

the first novel. Subsequent books in the series

at least 2 more, need a synopsis too, but those can be

shorter and sketchier than the first one.

It helps if you a story arc in mind and tell the editor what is at the end of

that arc. Other books in the series can always be negotiated later,

especially if the first ones sell decently.

Mary Rosenblum

I have a question about those synopses for books 2 and 3. How committed are you to the synopsis? What if you find you need to make big changes in book three...while you're working on 2?

Irene Radford

Talk to your editor. Mine doesn't mind changes

she thinks that changes indicate lively characters that

will engage the reader. But clear the changes so that

the editor has time to write ad copy for them.

Mary Rosenblum

And realize that AFTER the ad copy is written, changes that affect it will be VERY unwelcome!

Irene Radford

Correct.

senicynt

Please describe the 'story arc'

Irene Radford

This is a plot line that encompasses the entire story.

I think of it as arcing rather than a straight line because the tension

rises and falls, the characters evolve.

As an example, in THE GLASS DRAGON, the story begins with the culture

dependant upon magic rather than technology.

Dragons supply the magic, so why

is someone killing the dragons? Book two is the characters trying

to live without dragon magic.

Book three is this isn't working, we have to go find the dragons that flew away

in book one. One statement leads to another. We have a beginning,

a middle and an end.

Mary Rosenblum

But each book stands alone, right?

And has its own story arc?

Irene Radford

Yes. Different characters take the lead in each book to tell

their portion of the story. The trilogy has an arc.

Each book has a shorter and tighter arc.

Mary Rosenblum

Irene, thank you! You're offered a lot of information and good suggestions tonight!...

Irene Radford

Thank you for having me. This has been fun.

Mary Rosenblum

Would you like to tell us about your Merlin's Descendents series?

I particulary enjoyed the wolfhound familiars.

Irene Radford

Book one, Guardian of the Balance is the story of

Merlin's daughter and her stormy relationship

with both her dad and Arthur. The wolfhounds make their debut here.

They sort of bounded on stage on their own without my prompting.

Book 2 Guardian of the Trust, is about King John and the Magna Carta,

with an aging and almost respectable Robin Hood.

Book 3 is Guardian of the Vision, the early years of Elizabeth I

and the religious wars in France.

Guardian of the Promise is actually the sequel to Vision.

Irene Radford

The children of book 3 continue the story and help

defeat the Spanish Armada -- with werewolves running amok --

I really had fun with that one.

Mary Rosenblum

I enjoyed the werewolves. :-)

Irene Radford

Now I'm working on Guardian of the Freedom,

the 10 years leading up to the American Revolution.

I had to take up fencing as research for this one.

Mary Rosenblum

You're going to run out of 'history' lady! Do you plan to head west after that one?

Irene Radford

Oh, yes. I have plans for dealing with the fur trade

in the Pacific NW 1830 ish.

Then I can go back and fill in the gaps if I choose.

Mary Rosenblum

Wow, that is a quite a stretch! Thank you so much for coming tonight, Irene!

Irene Radford

My pleasure.

Mary Rosenblum

I really appreciate it, and I appreciate all the information you've shared with us!

senicynt

Thanks!

Mary Rosenblum

Thanks from all of us!

We'll let you go have dinner!

Irene Radford

Thank you.

Mary Rosenblum

Good night!